for those who think crean is a bad recruiter

[4everwarriors]

If Crean were one of the best recruiters, kids wouldn't be opting for other schools and he'd certainly have brought in a legit big man by now especially with all the playing time he can offer. Effort and time spent recruiting are not directly proportional to success in recruiting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If Crean were one of the best recruiters, kids wouldn't be opting for other schools and he'd certainly have brought in a legit big man by now especially with all the playing time he can offer. Effort and time spent recruiting are not directly proportional to success in recruiting.

Well, here's what I know...we're sitting here in October ranked 12th in the country with one of the best backcourts in the nation, picked to finish 3rd in the best conference in the country.  Now, he's either a good recruiter and lousy coach to get those accolades, or a lousy recruiter and unbelievable coach or maybe just a "good" recruiter and "good" coach.

Whatever the case may be, the whining and bellyaching is interesting for a team that is on the cusp of the top ten and should (barring injuries or something terrible) have a terrific year.  A year in which we should be able to build on recruiting even more.

I, for one, am looking forward to this season and applaud whomever it was that got these players to come to MU and play for this coach....a team worthy of a #12 ranking in the country out of 339 DI teams....the top 4% in the country.

Go MU.

[ecompt]

OK, if Crean isn't one of the top 10 recruiters in the country, show me 10 guys who recruit better than him AND graduate their players. And please don't tell me graduating players isn't important.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Reeder, I'm a creature of history....I look at the last 40 years of MU basketball and for that matter, Midwest basketball at bball only schools, I'm sorry but there aren't a lot of schools doing what we are doing are there?

You're right, there could be the next Wooden ready to take over but my guess is that it's more likely the next KO, or Deane, or Wainright, Meyer jr....good coaches, but none of them putting us on the map like we are now.

The days of Ray Meyer and Al McGuire are over.  Schools like ours have been used as stepping stones.  I'm thrilled we have a coach right now that is good enough to deliver a #12 national ranking, higher than ANY of our rivals, and is now working on year number 9 in a long term contract.

I go with the bird in hand if the bird is good.  If he wasn't, then you have an argument.

[Murffieus]

Chicos----we are a top 12 team preseason----remains to be seen if we are top 12 at seasons end.

Also, the reason we haven't been able to recruit a "big guy" is that all our bigs do is set screens for guards on the perimeter----no one of any quality wants to come in here and do that----Al emphasized the "aircraft carrier" in his game plan----when TC starts to do the same there will be plenty of bigs lining up to come here!

[Pakuni]

If Crean were one of the best recruiters, kids wouldn't be opting for other schools

Please name the one coach/recruiter who has never lost out on a kid to another school.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

OK, if Crean isn't one of the top 10 recruiters in the country, show me 10 guys who recruit better than him AND graduate their players. And please don't tell me graduating players isn't important.

No doubt graduating players is important. So important, in fact, that recent reports have James, McNeal and Matthews all on target to finish in three years.

Now that's remarkable! I know I didn't know anybody at Marquette that came close to pulling that off.

[ecompt]

Murff: You should know better. Until Chones came along, Al's players were all 6-5 and under. And Jerome Whitehead was hardly the focal point of the NCAA champs' offense. And, again, there is NO, none, zero, zilch comparison between Al's recruiting and what TC has to go through.

[ChicosBailBonds]

OK, if Crean isn't one of the top 10 recruiters in the country, show me 10 guys who recruit better than him AND graduate their players. And please don't tell me graduating players isn't important.

No doubt graduating players is important. So important, in fact, that recent reports have James, McNeal and Matthews all on target to finish in three years.

Now that's remarkable! I know I didn't know anybody at Marquette that came close to pulling that off.

I could have done it in 3 years...ended up taking 5 years.  I kept adding majors and minors.  I took summer school each year and graduated with a boatload of credits that's why it took so long, but with the summer classes I took, I could have been done in the second part of the summer after my Junior year in terms of credit counts.

I don't know what the requirements are today, but back then I usually took 18 credits a semester with the occasional 15 or 16, plus 6 credits per summer session (there were two sessions).  That puts you at 44 to 48 credits per calendar year.  Back then you needed 128 to graduate I think from A&S...I could be off but it can be done.  Most kids do 15 credits a semester and no summer school, so it takes 4 years.  Other majors / schools require 150 credit hours if I recall so it all depends on the college within the university you are graduating from.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos----we are a top 12 team preseason----remains to be seen if we are top 12 at seasons end.

Also, the reason we haven't been able to recruit a "big guy" is that all our bigs do is set screens for guards on the perimeter----no one of any quality wants to come in here and do that----Al emphasized the "aircraft carrier" in his game plan----when TC starts to do the same there will be plenty of bigs lining up to come here!

Very true, but since we can't see the future we only have a preseason poll.  Whether or not we are top 12 at the end of the season, I have no idea.  I hope we are, in the mean time I'm happy for the guys and happy for the fans.

[Murffieus]

ecompt-----Al had a dumpy campus, an antiqated playing facility, and cold winters-----TC still has the cold winters, but has a much improved campus, a state of the art practice facility, and the legacy of the McGuire years to back up his recruiting efforts-----I'd say TC's job is a lot easier tan Al's was!

BW----Al didn't have the bigtime success either until he got his aircraft carrier (Jim Chones)!

[ChicosBailBonds]

ecompt-----Al had a dumpy campus, an antiqated playing facility, and cold winters-----TC still has the cold winters, but has a much improved campus, a state of the art practice facility, and the legacy of the McGuire years to back up his recruiting efforts-----I'd say TC's job is a lot easier tan Al's was!

BW----Al didn't have the bigtime success either until he got his aircraft carrier (Jim Chones)!

I just don't agree with that John.  Al also had the advantage of no Big East conference, only about 190 programs, we were an independent which gave us a huge advantage of getting into the tournament, very little tv, more scholarships.

Today, 339 teams, reduced scholarships so more teams are good then ever before, the Big East took away the east coast pipeline MU had for so many years, players jumping to the pros like crazy now, tougher NCAA educational and recruiting standards then what Al had to deal with, tv tv tv tv.....every team is on tv so kids don't just gravitate to 10 schools.

[🏀]

I'm almost positive that in one of the various Al books, he stated that one of the reasons for him retiring was how college bball was changing. One of those things was recruiting.

[jmayer1]

OK, if Crean isn't one of the top 10 recruiters in the country, show me 10 guys who recruit better than him AND graduate their players. And please don't tell me graduating players isn't important.

No doubt graduating players is important. So important, in fact, that recent reports have James, McNeal and Matthews all on target to finish in three years.

Now that's remarkable! I know I didn't know anybody at Marquette that came close to pulling that off.

I graduated in 4 years with a double major in accounting and finanace with 152 credits (need 150 to take the CPA) and never took a single summer class.  Could have very easily graduated in 3 years with only one major.  I knew quite a few kids that graduated in 3 1/2 years with no summer school.  To graduate in 3 years, especially if you take summer classes isn't unreasonably difficult; especially if you are forced to study.

[augoman]

Chicos, I, too, think the bird in hand isn't too bad..., but if I could be assurred that the next guy would be another KO, I'd be a little less easy to please.  In the few years KO was here, he brought in arguably the best recruiting class ever at MU, took us from the Bob Dukiet division 3 mentality to the sweet 16! (with a win over Kentucky).  

[ecompt]

Murff, you have 300 colleges competing for top talent now. These kids start getting letters from coaches when they're in seventh grade. There's simply no comparison. And the reason Al got Chones was BECAUSE he had already built a Top Ten program with little guys.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, I, too, think the bird in hand isn't too bad..., but if I could be assurred that the next guy would be another KO, I'd be a little less easy to please.  In the few years KO was here, he brought in arguably the best recruiting class ever at MU, took us from the Bob Dukiet division 3 mentality to the sweet 16! (with a win over Kentucky). 

Very true....but he couldn't wait to get out of here which is the other piece of the puzzle I mentioned...not being used as a stepping stone.

I'd rather take the current bird in hand that is doing equally good things (if not better than KO) and is still here.

[Pardner]

TC is a great recruiter, not a good closer of Top 50 talent--yet.  Al hated to recruit, but could close.  TC has done a great job of taking talented kids who are just a a bit below physically for the NBA profile.  DW3, Travis, the three amigos, Lazar, Ooze, Novak (slow foot speed).  The fact is, DePaul has had a better NBA record recently than TC, yet we have had the better college team.  Why? Top 50 players want to go into the NBA early.  Our program cannot sustain that yet like UNC, but TC now has us on the hunt.  IS didn't pick UNC or MU, but GT because he can play today and get into the NBA next year (we have too many good guards who will be here a couple of years).

The NBA will always take the young Bigs in the lottery every year...the younger the higher as all they see is potential.  Aaron Gray could have been a lottery pick in past years...waited and was picked in the second round.  Skiles may start him this year over Noah.  That was a big drop in the bank account to stick around to help his team try and win the BE and NCAA.  It worked for Noah...but why gamble on MU if you are a Top 50 recruit unless you can play today?  Not until we take the next step in the tourney, which may be this year.

MU has quite a few things in its favor for a recruit:  Great b-ball history, a coach always in the press,  top line b-ball facilities, NBA city, visiting site for NBA teams, on cable all the time, a winning program under TC, DW3, academics, and usually chance to play as a frosh.  Things a 4 star recruit with hope will look for.

[Marquette84]

Chicos, I, too, think the bird in hand isn't too bad..., but if I could be assurred that the next guy would be another KO, I'd be a little less easy to please.  In the few years KO was here, he brought in arguably the best recruiting class ever at MU, took us from the Bob Dukiet division 3 mentality to the sweet 16! (with a win over Kentucky). 

Very true....but he couldn't wait to get out of here which is the other piece of the puzzle I mentioned...not being used as a stepping stone.

I'd rather take the current bird in hand that is doing equally good things (if not better than KO) and is still here.

There seems to be an attitude that teams just pick from a large pool of "Kevin O'Neills" and that someone of that quality is the worst possible outcome from a coaching change.

DePaul has been trying for years to get back to the level that Ray Meyer brought the program.
Dayton hasn't come close to the level they were at under Don Donoher
Loyola was a national championship team at one time.
Detroit was a top 25 condender under Dick Vitale.
St. Johns has been trying to regain the glory of the Lou Carnesecca years.

This confidence that we shouldn't be concerned about a coaching change is extremely misguided.   Lets face it, Bob Dukiet was a successful and promising coach before arriving at MU.  You simply don't know if past success is going to translate at the next level. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yup....Minnesota ran out Glenn Mason last year for "only" getting to 7 bowls in 8 years but he wasn't good enough for them.  This year, they might be the worse team in Division I football.

Happens all the time, fans get a sense of entitlement based on what happened 30 years ago or 50 years ago, then they smell a little success again believe it must be replicated to what happened back then.


Sports Illustrated has an interesting article on this right now

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/stewart_mandel/10/24/mailbag/3.html

[chefrad]

If a BB fan returned to this forum from years of isolation in the Biosphere he would think:

1) Marquette's top 15 ranking is a disgrace to a recent record of being routinely in the top 5.
2) Milwaukee's ambiance and weather are routinely confused with Portofino.

Crean does a nice job, and he keeps it interesting. Ryan, for example, also does a nice job but puts the world to sleep. Be happy with what you have.

[Murffieus]

Marqptm----if you are suggesting that Al quit at MU because he couldn't recruit anymore-----you're mistaken-----he had as good a talent when he left as he ever had (3 NBA guys and the POY)----so recruiting was NOT a problem for him. Al quit because Norm Fischer at Medalist Industries made him a rich man!

If over the years, things changed recruitingwise, he would have tweaked his technique----but the same bottomline would be there -----Al knew his biz!

[augoman]

Marquette84, I don't believe anyone said that it's easy to pull in a KO-caliber coach, nor implied that desire.  Neither was Bob Dukiet a "successful and promising" coach when he came here.  He, in fact, was a third choice/desperation to replace the coach from Texas that backed out when they wouldn't release him from his contractual obligations.  (he appeared on tv press conference in tears-apogizing).  Further, I feel the gist of the quoted posts was that TC (the bird in the hand) IS better than any replacements we may get.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If Crean were one of the best recruiters, kids wouldn't be opting for other schools and he'd certainly have brought in a legit big man by now especially with all the playing time he can offer. Effort and time spent recruiting are not directly proportional to success in recruiting.

This thread has gone through a ton of twists and turns so I'll just say this:

While Crean has missed out on some big men and some other players (every coach in America misses on players btw), I do still think he's a good recruiter.

He has raised the profile of MU by getting better and better talent to come here. He needs to keep going in order to be considered an elite recruiter, but right now (and given where MU started), Crean has done a great job.

Not everybody here is going to agree with the opinion of John Carroll, but regardless if you agree with him or not, you have to be excited by the fact that Crean is getting mentioned as a great recruiter by a guy like Carroll, who follows recruiting for a living.

Can everybody agree about that? It's at the very least good pub for MU. 

[Ready2Fly]

Marqptm----if you are suggesting that Al quit at MU because he couldn't recruit anymore-----you're mistaken-----he had as good a talent when he left as he ever had (3 NBA guys and the POY)----so recruiting was NOT a problem for him. Al quit because Norm Fischer at Medalist Industries made him a rich man!

If over the years, things changed recruitingwise, he would have tweaked his technique----but the same bottomline would be there -----Al knew his biz!

I don't think this is what he was suggestng - that Al had lost it as a recruiter. 

I've heard it said before too, that he didn't like the trend recruiting was taking.  The business of getting in on kids so young, perhaps some shady dealings that others were getting into to land the top recruits, etc.  It didn't seem like the natural way of going about things, and it played a part in his decision to retire.  But it probably wasn't the only reason.