MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: vogue65 on December 31, 2016, 09:16:24 AM
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Do we have a dog in this fight?
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Duke. Based on RPIForecast, Duke has a 0.2% expected impact on our RPI while Virginia Tech's expected impact is half that at 0.1%. Clearly, we cheer for the Dookies.
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Jesu84 must be on break, because he certainly would have something to say about the placement of this thread.
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Damn Buzz putting a beat down on Duke. Impressive!
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Jesu84 must be on break, because he certainly would have something to say about the placement of this thread.
Slacking big time.
Not only is this superbar, but we have like 4 threads on Buzz now. 2 on the front page today.
All I ask for 2017 is a little structure and organization on Scoop.
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Buzz is a heck of a coach. He's doing unbelievable things at VT.
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Hokies may just have a top 10 team in the works- play great defense and can penetrate and shoot
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Slacking big time.
Not only is this superbar, but we have like 4 threads on Buzz now. 2 on the front page today.
All I ask for 2017 is a little structure and organization on Scoop.
God forbid someone disagree with you on placement of threads. Many here enjoy following old Marquette players and coaches. You could just not click on the thread? It was clearly labeled
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Hokies may just have a top 10 team in the works- play great defense and can penetrate and shoot
He has his jae crowder too
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Hokies may just have a top 10 team in the works- play great defense and can penetrate and shoot
Love peoples reactions to one game, at home, to a team without their leader. VPI is good this year, but not top 10. Is Georgia Tech a top 10 team with a great coach because they are taking it to UNC?
Way to early to be calling teams top 10. They can shoot though, and that is why they dominated this game, they were on fire. Next time they may be cold and look like the worst team in basketball.
Same goes for us this year, we could be on fire and beat Nova, then turn around and be cold and lose to DePaul. If we beat Nova it doesn't make us a top 10 team, it means we were hot at the right time.
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3rd win over a top ten team for Buzz in the last calendar year. Good for him
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3rd win over a top ten team for Buzz in the last calendar year. Good for him
Who are the other 2? VPI has the 340th ranked non-conference schedule, I find that hard to believe if they played and beat two top 10 teams.
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Who are the other 2? VPI has the 340th ranked non-conference schedule, I find that hard to believe if they played and beat two top 10 teams.
*calender* year. He's including last season.
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Now we have to listen to espn praise him all year
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*calender* year. He's including last season.
Got it. Thanks, was very confused. Thought work related stress had finally had me living in an alternate reality.
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Kudo's to Buzz. Best way not to have Buzz threads is for MU to knock off some top ten teams and they will have some chances.
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The man can coach. Of course, Duke kind of 'kicked' this one away. Also, I was watching Duke defensively, in the context of comparing their defense to MU's. Young and long, but many of the same problems.
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He has his jae crowder too
i was thinking the same thing-#15-chris clarke 6'6" sophomore stud
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Can someone direct me to a Marquette message board?
#StopLivingInThePast
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Love peoples reactions to one game, at home, to a team without their leader. VPI is good this year, but not top 10. Is Georgia Tech a top 10 team with a great coach because they are taking it to UNC?
Way to early to be calling teams top 10. They can shoot though, and that is why they dominated this game, they were on fire. Next time they may be cold and look like the worst team in basketball.
Their defense is outstanding and they rebound well. That's the main reason they could be a top 10 team. We shall see.
Same goes for us this year, we could be on fire and beat Nova, then turn around and be cold and lose to DePaul. If we beat Nova it doesn't make us a top 10 team, it means we were hot at the right time.
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Their defense is outstanding and they rebound well. That's the main reason they could be a top 10 team. We shall see.
I screwed up the quote thing- mia culpa
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Now we have to listen to espn praise him all year
He is earning it. Went to a program that was a mess and has them competing big time. Buzz gave us a few fun seasons.
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Now we have to listen to espn praise him all year
If you put batteries in your remote, this wouldn't be a problem.
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They play tough...typical of many of buzz's mu teams. Fun to watch.
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Buzz flushed the Dukies
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I'll use this as the de facto ACC thread to say FSUs Bacon is awesome
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Really all bacon that isn't Canadian is awesome.
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UVA nails a three to go up one with six left - then Bacon nails a three to go up two with two left. Great game.
Bacon with 29 points. Almost all in the second half
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So which rebuilding job was harder, MU for Wojo or VT for Buzz?
Hard to say Buzz hasn't done a better job and isn't a better coach.
Sure hope MU gets at least one win over a good team this year. Shouldn't be too much to ask.
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So which rebuilding job was harder, MU for Wojo or VT for Buzz?
Hard to say Buzz hasn't done a better job and isn't a better coach.
Sure hope MU gets at least one win over a good team this year. Shouldn't be too much to ask.
Glad this resurfaced. It's been a whole three weeks since we last had this debate. So much has changed since then.
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So which rebuilding job was harder, MU for Wojo or VT for Buzz?
Hard to say Buzz hasn't done a better job and isn't a better coach.
Sure hope MU gets at least one win over a good team this year. Shouldn't be too much to ask.
Been discussed multiple times. Bert had a year's head start having his own recruiting class following him to his new school and going to a school where the old coach wasn't taking his recruiting class with him. Wojo had been recruiting for K/Duke and took over a program that the former coach took the recruiting class with him.
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Pitt / ND game a good one.
Vasturia just hit a 3 to put ND up 1 with 2.5 seconds to go in OT.
Too bad. PITT had it all but wrapped up.
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Been discussed multiple times. Bert had a year's head start having his own recruiting class following him to his new school and going to a school where the old coach wasn't taking his recruiting class with him. Wojo had been recruiting for K/Duke and took over a program that the former coach took the recruiting class with him.
Soooo you're claiming Wojo had the more difficult task at Marquette than Buzz had at Virginia fracking Tech? That's funny
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Soooo you're claiming Wojo had the more difficult task at Marquette than Buzz had at Virginia fracking Tech? That's funny
And accurate.
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Kudo's to Buzz. Best way not to have Buzz threads is for MU to knock off some top ten teams and they will have some chances.
Here, here Goose.
A Marquette victory over a powerhouse opponent would be...refreshing.
The comparison between what is playing out in Blacksburg vs a once proud Marquette program is...startling.
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And accurate.
No chance. I understand we were coming off a down year with a fairly empty cupboard but we were still in a better position than VT
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The comparison between what is playing out in Blacksburg vs a once proud Marquette program is...startling.
If you find it startling, you are easily started. I thought it was obviously going to start out this way.
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No chance.
Only if you ignore reality. The team Wojo inherited was trash.
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Only if you ignore reality. The team Wojo inherited was trash.
But the program wasn't. Unlike VT's
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I'll use this as the de facto ACC thread to say FSUs Bacon is awesome
Buzz was on him early for us. *Post from 3 Years Ago*----
Bacon is legit. Reminds me of... JAMIL! (Tonight's version.)
His game screams MU.
Was one of my favorites to watch last spring/summer.
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Buzz was on him early for us. *Post from 3 Years Ago*----
I thought he sounded familiar. Good call - he has a fun game
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But the program wasn't. Unlike VT's
Marquette's program is fine now. VT's was better than you think.
Seriously, it's very obvious to see why VT is in a better position now.
1. Buzz is an experienced coach
2. He fills in holes with Jucos
3. He dragged most of his freshman class to Blacksburg with him.
He may end up going further than Wojo does here. Oh well. Not much anyone can do about that now.
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But the program wasn't. Unlike VT's
The program doesn't mean much to kids these days. It is the coach/recent performance.
See this years UCONN, for how much program matters.
Both teams were dumpster fires in terms of on board talent/roster balance.
Buzz was able to recruit off his success and bring recruits with him. Buzz is performing at the expectation that VPI had when they shelled out big bucks to get him.
Wojo had to first establish himself. Develop success and then use that to maintain success. Wojo is on track, and is as expected probably a year behind the Buzzster.
The difference between being an established respected head coach, and a first time head coach.
Wanting to compare them head to head is idiotic.
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Marquette's program is fine now. VT's was better than you think.
Seriously, it's very obvious to see why VT is in a better position now.
1. Buzz is an experienced coach
2. He fills in holes with Jucos
3. He dragged most of his freshman class to Blacksburg with him.
He may end up going further than Wojo does here. Oh well. Not much anyone can do about that now.
He brought Hill and Satchel Pierce...lost Shayok and Chief - who am I missing?
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Fine. He brought half. He left one.
Is my language good enough to please your pedantry?
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Fine. He brought half. He left one.
Is my language good enough to please your pedantry?
Calm down buddy - just was trying to remember who it may have been.
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He brought Hill and Satchel Pierce...lost Shayok and Chief - who am I missing?
It's a bit more than that though.
VPI had a good recruiting class. Since Greenberg didn't go somewhere new, they were there for the taking (couldn't follow Greenberg).
That goes with the general differences of a replacing a coach who was fired, vs. replacing a coach that left for a new opportunity.
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And accurate.
Not accurate at all. VT had been a mess and a doormat before Buzz showed up. He has done a great job.
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It's a bit more than that though.
VPI had a good recruiting class. Since Greenberg didn't go somewhere new, they were there for the taking (couldn't follow Greenberg).
That goes with the general differences of a replacing a coach who was fired, vs. replacing a coach that left for a new opportunity.
At first I was just looking to clarify something I missed but now people are just making stuff up. Greenberg was fired after the 11/12 season and replaced by James Johnson. Greenberg couldnt make the tourney in a very public fashion (always on the bubble).
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7847062/virginia-tech-hokies-coach-seth-greenberg-fired-nine-seasons (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7847062/virginia-tech-hokies-coach-seth-greenberg-fired-nine-seasons)
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Marquette's program is fine now. VT's was better than you think.
Seriously, it's very obvious to see why VT is in a better position now.
1. Buzz is an experienced coach
2. He fills in holes with Jucos
3. He dragged most of his freshman class to Blacksburg with him.
He may end up going further than Wojo does here. Oh well. Not much anyone can do about that now.
LOL they have no tradition, hadn't made the tourney since 2007, and averaged a 3-15 conference record the 2 years prior to his arrival. They were trash.
Don't disagree with your 3 points below that, but VA Tech as a program was not better than anyone thinks. And no one thinks it was even close to good.
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It's a bit more than that though.
VPI had a good recruiting class. Since Greenberg didn't go somewhere new, they were there for the taking (couldn't follow Greenberg).
That goes with the general differences of a replacing a coach who was fired, vs. replacing a coach that left for a new opportunity.
Buzz replaced the guy who replaced Greenberg. I believe he only coached a year or two before being fired. So the rest of your point is right on.
Also, VT was routinely a bubble team under Greenberg. Its not like Buzz took over DePaul.
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Ellenson and Frenn are spot on - forgetful is forgetful and wades (no surprise) and sultan (surprisingly) are playing fast and loose with the facts.
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Marquette's program is fine now. VT's was better than you think.
Seriously, it's very obvious to see why VT is in a better position now.
1. Buzz is an experienced coach
2. He fills in holes with Jucos
3. He dragged most of his freshman class to Blacksburg with him.
He may end up going further than Wojo does here. Oh well. Not much anyone can do about that now.
Buzz doesn't have to worry about his players off the court behavior, Wojo does.
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Buzz replaced the guy who replaced Greenberg. I believe he only coached a year or two before being fired. So the rest of your point is right on.
Also, VT was routinely a bubble team under Greenberg. Its not like Buzz took over DePaul.
Here are the preceding 3 years of Ken Pom...the 83 was Greenberg's last year and DePaul may be one of the worst of the high majors (opinion).
DePaul - 151, 174, 183
VT - 83, 169, 174
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Ellenson and Frenn are spot on - forgetful is forgetful and wades (no surprise) and sultan (surprisingly) are playing fast and loose with the facts.
Please enlighten me.
You think Jhalil and Tyus would've followed Wojo to MU if he tried to recruit them to do so? Interesting take. I tend to disagree, but we simply don't know I guess. Unfortunately for us they didn't.
Also wondering where James Johnson took over immediately after his time at VT to take his recruits along.
Not sure what facts I'm playing fast and loose with. Please do enlighten me all knowing Mr. Lenny.
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Here are the preceding 3 years of Ken Pom...the 83 was Greenberg's last year and DePaul may be one of the worst of the high majors (opinion).
DePaul - 151, 174, 183
VT - 83, 169, 174
Wow. Didn't realize they were that bad at the end of his tenure. Prior to his last year, they made the NIT 4 straight times and the tournament before that. He may have benefited from a time where RPI far outweighed Ken Pom as a way to determine quality of teams.
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Here are the preceding 3 years of Ken Pom...the 83 was Greenberg's last year and DePaul may be one of the worst of the high majors (opinion).
DePaul - 151, 174, 183
VT - 83, 169, 174
Yep - Buzz inherited quite a program. One NCAA appearance in 18 years and back to back to back last place finishes in the ACC. But he did bring one recruit with him who could play basketball (whoopee!) - and if he hadn't missed all of last year with an injury VPI would have been dancing in Buzz's second year. Not too shabby.
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Yep - Buzz inherited quite a program. One NCAA appearance in 18 years and back to back to back last place finishes in the ACC. But he did bring one recruit with him who could play basketball (whoopee!) - and if he hadn't missed all of last year with an injury VPI would have been dancing in Buzz's second year. Not too shabby.
Still waiting for all these facts to come out that I don't have fully accurate.
I'll hang up and listen. While expecting you to continue to ignore the request for the facts I'm missing.
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Wow. Didn't realize they were that bad at the end of his tenure. Prior to his last year, they made the NIT 4 straight times and the tournament before that. He may have benefited from a time where RPI far outweighed Ken Pom as a way to determine quality of teams.
James Johnson was an AWFUL coach. VT was 3rd and 4th in the ACC the 2 years before he was fired. The 83 rank the year he was fired was bad, but before that they were decent bubble squads. Johnson meanwhile did so horribly that he didnt even grab an assistant gig, he is basketball ops for Miami.
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Still waiting for all these facts to come out that I don't have fully accurate.
I'll hang up and listen. While expecting you to continue to ignore the request for the facts I'm missing.
You claimed Buzz "took his recruiting class with him" when he went to V Tech. His recruiting class was Sandy Cohen, Marial Shayok, Ahmed Hill and project Satchel Pierce. Of the three top 150 guys, Buzz took one, Wojo took one and Tony Bennett took one. Buzz also got Pierce, who transferred. But whether one of three or two of four, it's inaccurate to say that Buzz took his "Recruiting class" with him. The second and third best guys went elsewhere.
You do this stuff frequently. Rather than having another Chico type back and forth relationship which proves toxic to the entire board, I'm bowing out. Happy New Year.
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You claimed Buzz "took his recruiting class with him" when he went to V Tech. His recruiting class was Sandy Cohen, Marial Shayok, Ahmed Hill and project Satchel Pierce. Of the three top 150 guys, Buzz took one, Wojo took one and Tony Bennett took one. Buzz also got Pierce, who transferred. But whether one of three or two of four, it's inaccurate to say that Buzz took his "Recruiting class" with him. The second and third best guys went elsewhere.
You do this stuff frequently. Rather than having another Chico type back and forth relationship which proves toxic to the entire board, I'm bowing out. Happy New Year.
So Satchel doesn't count as going with Bert because he transferred out of VT but Sandy counts for staying with Wojo despite the fact that, well, he transferred out. Remind me who's playing "fast and loose with the facts," again?
Fact of the matter is Bert got his pick of his own MU recruiting class as well as Johnson's VT recruiting class while Wojo got the single leftover that Bert didn't want. Wojo was a full year behind in recruiting, so it should come as no surprise that VT would be further along in getting their program where they are hoping to get than MU is to being where they want to be.
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Buzz replaced the guy who replaced Greenberg. I believe he only coached a year or two before being fired. So the rest of your point is right on.
Also, VT was routinely a bubble team under Greenberg. Its not like Buzz took over DePaul.
Oops
Ellenson and Frenn are spot on - forgetful is forgetful and wades (no surprise) and sultan (surprisingly) are playing fast and loose with the facts.
Yes I was forgetful on James Johnson, but who can blame me there, his performance was forgettable.
I do stand by Johnson having lined up a good recruiting class though (Bibbs and Hudson).
And I stand by my general point of that we shouldn't be comparing this as there are two many differences regarding the situations; my general opinion is Buzz really had a 1-year head start because of those situations and his experience.
Beyond that, I don't want to get involved as I'm bound to forget something.
Happy New Year.
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Hi, fun fact Bazz has been gone since 2014.
I hate Bazz with the power of 1000 suns but it's over.
He screwed Wojo and Marquette over to infinity but he is long gone.
Whether Wojo is the man to lead Marquette to the promise land or not, Bazz is a wuss of epic proportions because h couldn't handle the slightest bit of pressure.
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Are we playing VT tomorrow??
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Ellenson and Frenn are spot on - forgetful is forgetful and wades (no surprise) and sultan (surprisingly) are playing fast and loose with the facts.
What facts am I playing loose with?
He stepped into a better situation in year one than Wojo did, will employ tactics that will turn them aound quicker and may succeed more than Wojo does cause he's a better coach.
If people are surprised by this, they aren't paying attention.
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I do not believe Buzz stepped into a better situation.
First year he was last in 15 team league with a 11-22 record(two conference wins), while Wojo tied for last in a 10 team league with a 13-19 record (4 conference wins). You say Buzz had a better situation and is a better coach, but that does not agree with Buzz's first year results.
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What facts am I playing loose with?
He stepped into a better situation in year one than Wojo did, will employ tactics that will turn them aound quicker and may succeed more than Wojo does cause he's a better coach.
If people are surprised by this, they aren't paying attention.
What tactics is he using that Wojo can't/won't?
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Buzz is one of the top 15 coaches in America. It doesn't matter where his program was when he got it, he's a phenomenal coach. We were lucky to have him.
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Not sure on what the debate is about regarding Wojo vs. Buzz. At the moment it is a no brainer on who has performed better and unfortunately it is not Wojo. Time will tell on who ultimately does better but right now there is no hiding from the fact that Buzz has done a nice job at VT.
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Not sure on what the debate is about regarding Wojo vs. Buzz. At the moment it is a no brainer on who has performed better and unfortunately it is not Wojo. Time will tell on who ultimately does better but right now there is no hiding from the fact that Buzz has done a nice job at VT.
Buzz has done better. He got VT to the NIT last year. Wojo didn't. This year, Wojo was ahead of Buzz until the Duke win. We'll see where both teams finish this year. Wouldn't be surprised if Buzz finished ahead. He has 7 more years of head coaching experience, he better do better than Wojo.
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Not sure on what the debate is about regarding Wojo vs. Buzz. At the moment it is a no brainer on who has performed better and unfortunately it is not Wojo. Time will tell on who ultimately does better but right now there is no hiding from the fact that Buzz has done a nice job at VT.
The debate was about which program was more difficult to rebuild; MU or VT
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What facts am I playing loose with?
He stepped into a better situation in year one than Wojo did, will employ tactics that will turn them aound quicker and may succeed more than Wojo does cause he's a better coach.
If people are surprised by this, they aren't paying attention.
All of what you say is opinion and not fact.
Here is a fact: Bert has VPI ranked while Wojo's team is not. Bert has his team playing at a higher level than Wojo does.
We will see who is in the Dance this year and who is not.
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We will see who is in the Dance this year and who is not.
Or "...who will have the higher seed". I am more bullish on MU's chances of getting in. I got to believe.
As far as Buzz/Wojo...Buzz is a great coach and Wojo is headed in the right direction.
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I had to watch the ESPN, YouTube, replay video a second time, because it was fun to watch.
Poor coach K. looked like he just ran into a BUZZsaw, V.T. obviously came to play, and the kids stormed the court. How about we use storming the court in Milwaukee as a metric?
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I had to watch the ESPN, YouTube, replay video a second time, because it was fun to watch.
Poor coach K. looked like he just ran into a BUZZsaw, V.T. obviously came to play, and the kids stormed the court. How about we use storming the court in Milwaukee as a metric?
Referring to a different thread...this is a case for a smaller more intimate arena. The Bradley Cavern is just not conducive. Give all the students lower bowl seats....ah that would be costly$.....We'd also need to beat a Villanova to generate it.
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Not a Buzz hater at all.
Buzz is an outstanding coach and I wish he hadn't left.
Buzz did leave a bare cupboard for Wojo, who has recruited well since arriving.
Beating Duke is always wonderful. Still, one home win over a team that was without its best player hardly should result in any conclusion of greatness.
At this stage of their careers, Buzz is a better coach than Wojo. Which should surprise nobody. Buzz is an outstanding, proven, veteran, tested coach who has guided teams to Sweet 16s and beyond; Wojo is a neophyte coach and it's too early to accurately judge him.
I don't know which program was in worse shape 3 years ago - and neither does anybody else. Most of what I have seen so far in this thread are opinions ... including those stated in the preceding five paragraphs of this post.
Opinions are not facts.
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Gotta wait 5 years ta judge, hey?
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Love how three days ago we were so excited about our players and WOJO's recruiting talent and about how his in
Game coaching has improved.
Now here is thread basically talking about him not being good.
If we lose today, will all you flip floppers start the fire Wojo thread again?
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Love how three days ago we were so excited about our players and WOJO's recruiting talent and about how his in
Game coaching has improved.
Now here is thread basically talking about him not being good.
If we lose today, will all you flip floppers start the fire Wojo thread again?
No that's for the DePaul game.
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Or "...who will have the higher seed". I am more bullish on MU's chances of getting in. I got to believe.
As far as Buzz/Wojo...Buzz is a great coach and Wojo is headed in the right direction.
+1 Now can we move on? (he asked knowing full well what the answer is)
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Pretty hard to judge buzz vs wojo after 3 years when buzz was able to take his recruiting class with him and continue to recruit targets he already had n wojo started completely over
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Bed Time.
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I still like Buzz and I believe he left, because the administration was no longer happy with him. I think the situation is very similar to the new Cincy President getting rid of Bob Huggins and somewhat similiar to Indiana getting rid of Bobby Knight. While both of those programs have had some very good success since then, neither of them have achieved the success that they had before they ran off the coach that did not fit the public image the Unverisity administration wanted.
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I still like Buzz and I believe he left, because the administration was no longer happy with him. I think the situation is very similar to the new Cincy President getting rid of Bob Huggins and somewhat similiar to Indiana getting rid of Bobby Knight. While both of those programs have had some very good success since then, neither of them have achieved the success that they had before they ran off the coach that did not fit the public image the Unverisity administration wanted.
Good comparisons.
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I still like Buzz and I believe he left, because the administration was no longer happy with him. I think the situation is very similar to the new Cincy President getting rid of Bob Huggins and somewhat similiar to Indiana getting rid of Bobby Knight. While both of those programs have had some very good success since then, neither of them have achieved the success that they had before they ran off the coach that did not fit the public image the Unverisity administration wanted.
The question for me is are the desires of the University right or correct. If Pilarz is pulling the strings I vote no.
We may have not ended up in a different place in the end, but they fooked this up.
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I still like Buzz and I believe he left, because the administration was no longer happy with him. I think the situation is very similar to the new Cincy President getting rid of Bob Huggins and somewhat similiar to Indiana getting rid of Bobby Knight. While both of those programs have had some very good success since then, neither of them have achieved the success that they had before they ran off the coach that did not fit the public image the Unverisity administration wanted.
good points, but i also might add that i don't think cincy appreciated the "huggy happy hour" either
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Hi, fun fact Bazz has been gone since 2014.
I hate Bazz with the power of 1000 suns but it's over.
He screwed Wojo and Marquette over to infinity but he is long gone.
Whether Wojo is the man to lead Marquette to the promise land or not, Bazz is a wuss of epic proportions because h couldn't handle the slightest bit of pressure.
Amen. Glad that phony, scumbag who embarrassed our proud university with his antics and what he tolerated as a coach is gone. Buzz sucks.
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The question for me is are the desires of the University right or correct. If Pilarz is pulling the strings I vote no.
We may have not ended up in a different place in the end, but they fooked this up.
Parts were poorly handled on both sides. Pilarz/Larry treated an episodic issue like a systematic one. Buzz could have handled it graciously but he didn't. I'm personally of the belief that when you disagree with your boss, you make your concerns known and then respect the decision that gets handed down and make the best of it. Not sure if that's what happened.
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I still like Buzz and I believe he left, because the administration was no longer happy with him. I think the situation is very similar to the new Cincy President getting rid of Bob Huggins and somewhat similiar to Indiana getting rid of Bobby Knight. While both of those programs have had some very good success since then, neither of them have achieved the success that they had before they ran off the coach that did not fit the public image the Unverisity administration wanted.
I'm no insider, but to my knowledge Buzz never choked an athlete at practice or pinned a student up against a wall for calling him "Williams."
Look up Knight's last 6 years at Indiana - no BT titles, 4 NCAA first-round losses, 2 NCAA second-round losses. Fact is, he didn't achieve the success that he had before he very deservedly - and belatedly - was run off by Indiana. Recruits were avoiding him like the plague, and for good reason. There are too many outstanding coaches who don't physically abuse their athletes.
I get your point, though.
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Amen. Glad that phony, scumbag who embarrassed our proud university with his antics and what he tolerated as a coach is gone. Buzz sucks.
See I didnt mind that aspect. I dont think is antics were that bad and outside Mayo, his teams were more than fine people. But the way he left and ripped the Big East while doing it was what irked me.
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See I didnt mind that aspect. I dont think is antics were that bad and outside Mayo, his teams were more than fine people. But the way he left and ripped the Big East while doing it was what irked me.
Not easy leaving with dignity after you have been screwed. The Big East still has a lot of work to do, it is on a tight rope, doing well all things considered. Without the great tv deal it would be just another mid-major league. It better shore up its product in all aspects while it has time, the honneymoon is over and the ratings don't lie, Creighton attendance figures notwithstanding.
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Not easy leaving with dignity after you have been screwed. The Big East still has a lot of work to do, it is on a tight rope, doing well all things considered. Without the great tv deal it would be just another mid-major league. It better shore up its product in all aspects while it has time, the honneymoon is over and the ratings don't lie, Creighton attendance figures notwithstanding.
You mean a product that sends half of its teams to the tourney every year with the reigning national champion, 4 teams in the top 25 and current number 1 team in the country? Or am I thinking of some other conference?
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You mean a product that sends half of its teams to the tourney every year with the reigning national champion, 4 teams in the top 25 and current number 1 team in the country? Or am I thinking of some other conference?
That's exactly the kind of work the conference needs to continue doing. The battle is a PR battle and for eyeballs and advertising dollars.
The problem, as I see it, and BTW, as Al McGuire saw it, continues to be the problem of a "Catholic" league, but that is another topic. We only have one token private non-catholic school, not good for the long term. Look around, no league looks like the Big East.
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The problem, as I see it, and BTW, as Al McGuire saw it, continues to be the problem of a "Catholic" league, but that is another topic. We only have one token private non-catholic school, not good for the long term. Look around, no league looks like the Big East.
What does that matter? I mean, are you arguing that the BE is somehow tarnished due to the religious affiliations of its schools? It doesn't seem to me like it is even a topic that ever comes up.
The BE was formed primarily because all the schools were/are basketball centric, i.e., football would no longer wag the dog, not due to religious affiliation.
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See I didnt mind that aspect. I dont think is antics were that bad and outside Mayo, his teams were more than fine people. But the way he left and ripped the Big East while doing it was what irked me.
That's debatable.
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See I didnt mind that aspect. I dont think is antics were that bad and outside Mayo, his teams were more than fine people. But the way he left and ripped the Big East while doing it was what irked me.
Yeah you weren't here for 2010-2011, you'd feel very differently about the character of some of his players (though certain posters still can't accept that the incidents happened)
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What does that matter? I mean, are you arguing that the BE is somehow tarnished due to the religious affiliations of its schools? It doesn't seem to me like it is even a topic that ever comes up.
The BE was formed primarily because all the schools were/are basketball centric, i.e., football would no longer wag the dog, not due to religious affiliation.
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I understand the basketball centric rationalization.
The subject never comes up because it is a difficult subject. It came up very often in the late 60's and 70's when Al was runnining the show and Marquette was an independent. Then the leagues took over, everone had to join a league and now we are in exactly the kind of league that Al wanted to avoid.
We are lucky to be in the Big East, and the Big East is lucky to have us.
Now let me go to an extreme to make a point, imagine a Big 20, East and West Divisions.
San Francisco, Gonzaga, Creighton, St. Marys, Marquette, Butler, De Paul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton. in the West.
Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Vilanova, Georgetown, St. Bonaventure, St. Josephs, Niagra, Detroit, and Duquesne in the East.
How does that sound? To many people the Big East sounds, as currently constituted, similar.
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Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I understand the basketball centric rationalization.
The subject never comes up because it is a difficult subject. It came up very often in the late 60's and 70's when Al was runnining the show and Marquette was an independent. Then the leagues took over, everone had to join a league and now we are in exactly the kind of league that Al wanted to avoid.
We are lucky to be in the Big East, and the Big East is lucky to have us.
Now let me go to an extreme to make a point, imagine a Big 20, East and West Divisions.
San Francisco, Gonzaga, Creighton, St. Marys, Marquette, Butler, De Paul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton. in the West.
Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Vilanova, Georgetown, St. Bonaventure, St. Josephs, Niagra, Detroit, and Duquesne in the East.
How does that sound? To many people the Big East sounds, as currently constituted, similar.
Those people are morons.
Look, I love Al and what he did for Marquette. But using his thoughts from 40+ years ago on our current conference affiliation makes no sense. He had those thoughts when a school could still be an independent. When television contracts weren't all that lucrative and tied to conferences.
Simply put, the landscape has changed too much. The fact that nine of the ten schools are Catholic is in no way a concern.
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All of what you say is opinion and not fact.
Here is a fact: Bert has VPI ranked while Wojo's team is not. Bert has his team playing at a higher level than Wojo does.
We will see who is in the Dance this year and who is not.
Virginia Tech is 32 Kenpom, we're 36. His team is playing at a higher level, but barely.
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Anyone that thinks the current incarnation of the Big East is a mid-major is either uninformed or pushing an alternative agenda.
Our conference is now widely (again) considered a power basketball conference. Our performance has proven that, our attendance has shown that and our schools' commitment to elite basketball has solidified that.
Buzz, for all of his analytics and insight, actually guessed wrong on the new Big East - as did ESPN, media personalities, as well as other collegiate insiders. It has not only gotten the results, but it has also proven that you don't need P5 football in order to have successful D1 athletics program. Football, in reality, does not drive the proverbial bus.
We were supposed to be left for dead, with no hope of surviving in this new world. Not only did we survive, but we have now become one of the predators - able to take any non-football program we want because we offer more money, exposure and opportunity than any other non-football conference in the country. It's quite the reversal of what the old Big East had become.
Our conference affiliation is a strength of Marquette Athletics for sure.
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Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I understand the basketball centric rationalization.
The subject never comes up because it is a difficult subject. It came up very often in the late 60's and 70's when Al was runnining the show and Marquette was an independent. Then the leagues took over, everone had to join a league and now we are in exactly the kind of league that Al wanted to avoid.
We are lucky to be in the Big East, and the Big East is lucky to have us.
Now let me go to an extreme to make a point, imagine a Big 20, East and West Divisions.
San Francisco, Gonzaga, Creighton, St. Marys, Marquette, Butler, De Paul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton. in the West.
Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Vilanova, Georgetown, St. Bonaventure, St. Josephs, Niagra, Detroit, and Duquesne in the East.
How does that sound? To many people the Big East sounds, as currently constituted, similar.
ABD
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Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
So exactly how do you think it tarnishes Marquette and/or the Big East? It what way are we negatively impacted? TV contract? Recruits? Coaches? Other?
I'm pretty anti-organized religion, but I can't see even a whiff of a negative impact.
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Those people are morons.
Look, I love Al and what he did for Marquette. But using his thoughts from 40+ years ago on our current conference affiliation makes no sense. He had those thoughts when a school could still be an independent. When television contracts weren't all that lucrative and tied to conferences.
Simply put, the landscape has changed too much. The fact that nine of the ten schools are Catholic is in no way a concern.
This x1,000.
Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton are playing at an elite level. Georgetown and Marquette are elite names. The rest have done enough over the years to justify being here (okay...maybe not DePaul, but someone's gotta lose). This conference is at absolute worst one of the top-three conferences in the country. At worst. And anyone trying to judge this conference on some silly, 40-year-old criteria needs to realize it's not the 1970s anymore.
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This x1,000.
Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton are playing at an elite level. Georgetown and Marquette are elite names. The rest have done enough over the years to justify being here (okay...maybe not DePaul, but someone's gotta lose). This conference is at absolute worst one of the top-three conferences in the country. At worst. And anyone trying to judge this conference on some silly, 40-year-old criteria needs to realize it's not the 1970s anymore.
This is pretty important because 90% of the rest of the conference's success came after Al was around.
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This is pretty important because 90% of the rest of the conference's success came after Al was around.
I don't think he is arguing that those teams shouldn't be included because they weren't historically successful in the 70's, I think he is strictly arguing that it shouldn't be a conference with schools all with similar/same religious affiliation. I honestly don't know why Al felt that way (or if he even did), maybe for the same reason some people thought Kennedy couldn't be elected because people wouldn't vote for a Catholic as President?
In any event, that time has passed and I don't see anyone even refer to it as a league with a religious affiliation much less have that affiliation impact MU basketball negatively.
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First of all, regarding being an independent, it was an advantage for Marquette then as the regional/syndicated sports networks like Eddie Einhorn's TVS would put MU on prime weekend slots. Conference teams would usually only be carried locally, if at all. MU would get national exposure, full revenue, and all their NCAA money.
The advent of cable TV changed the game and the BE was borne with ESPN and WGN Superstation locked up DePaul. MU passed on the BE at the same time the Piano Man sunk us. Through a series of conference moves, Cords saved us.
As to Buzz bashing the BE, in order to had to claim that his contract had materially changed in order to enact the escape clause. The AD and league changes gave him cover after Wild and Cords told Buzz to hold off for his agenda until the new admin was hired).
The ironic thing is that it was Larry leaving that he used to pop that cork (the Larry, who spent most of his time looking for a way to bounce Buzz or renegotiate those clad iron outs).
Lesson learned on all of this: Keep the academic administration and BOT out of the basketball business decisions. They will fook it up nine times out of ten.
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By "academic administration" do you mean the president of the university?
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By "academic administration" do you mean the president of the university?
Not limited to, in both cases.
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The president should absolutely be involved in "basketball business decisions." It is ultimately his responsibility. They just have to be competent at it.
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The president should absolutely be involved in "basketball business decisions." It is ultimately his responsibility. They just have to be competent at it.
Which is why you have an Athletics Director/VP. "Involved" and "Approving" are two different things. Buck Raynor was a great university president with oversight by the Marquette Athletics Board...and they took basketball for granted, but at least corrected himself with hiring Cords and empowered him.
Pilarz and crew...well...
Fr. Wild got it right. Both times.
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First of all, regarding being an independent, it was an advantage for Marquette then as the regional/syndicated sports networks like Eddie Einhorn's TVS would put MU on prime weekend slots. Conference teams would usually only be carried locally, if at all. MU would get national exposure, full revenue, and all their NCAA money.
The advent of cable TV changed the game and the BE was borne with ESPN and WGN Superstation locked up DePaul. MU passed on the BE at the same time the Piano Man sunk us. Through a series of conference moves, Cords saved us.
As to Buzz bashing the BE, in order to had to claim that his contract had materially changed in order to enact the escape clause. The AD and league changes gave him cover after Wild and Cords told Buzz to hold off for his agenda until the new admin was hired).
The ironic thing is that it was Larry leaving that he used to pop that cork (the Larry, who spent most of his time looking for a way to bounce Buzz or renegotiate those clad iron outs).
Lesson learned on all of this: Keep the academic administration and BOT out of the basketball business decisions. They will fook it up nine times out of ten.
Lesson learned is that when you have a lawyer in charge you get a legal decision, an engineer, an engineering decision, an accountant sn accounting decision, etc., etc.
Who are the BOT's, do-gooders, philanthropists, socialites, academics, fundraisers, successful people in their field, networkers, politoicos, lucky dogs, and a few tokens. Not exactly a tiger team to make good athletic decisions.
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Lesson learned is that when you have a lawyer in charge you get a legal decision, an engineer, an engineering decision, an accountant sn accounting decision, etc., etc.
Who are the BOT's, do-gooders, philanthropists, socialites, academics, fundraisers, successful people in their field, networkers, politoicos, lucky dogs, and a few tokens. Not exactly a tiger team to make good athletic decisions.
So Doc' Rivers don't know, hey?
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Yes, that is exactly what I mean. I understand the basketball centric rationalization.
The subject never comes up because it is a difficult subject. It came up very often in the late 60's and 70's when Al was runnining the show and Marquette was an independent. Then the leagues took over, everone had to join a league and now we are in exactly the kind of league that Al wanted to avoid.
We are lucky to be in the Big East, and the Big East is lucky to have us.
Now let me go to an extreme to make a point, imagine a Big 20, East and West Divisions.
San Francisco, Gonzaga, Creighton, St. Marys, Marquette, Butler, De Paul, St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton. in the West.
Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Vilanova, Georgetown, St. Bonaventure, St. Josephs, Niagra, Detroit, and Duquesne in the East.
How does that sound? To many people the Big East sounds, as currently constituted, similar.
Sounds terrible, in my opinion.
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Lesson learned on all of this: Keep the academic administration and BOT and boosters out of the basketball business decisions. They will fook it up nine times out of ten.
FIFY
Of course the basketball's purpose is to ultimately serve the academic administration so they need to have at least oversight.
I'm curious, what basketball business decision did you think that the academic administration and BOT fooked up? I disagreed with a lot of that decisions that resulted in the Williams v. Williams fued, but those came with the support of the athletic director.
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FIFY
Of course the basketball's purpose is to ultimately serve the academic administration so they need to have at least oversight.
I'm curious, what basketball business decision did you think that the academic administration and BOT fooked up? I disagreed with a lot of that decisions that resulted in the Williams v. Williams fued, but those came with the support of the athletic director.
Not joining the Big East originally, realizing the cable TV was going to change everything. Passing on Denny Crum, Digger Phelps. Going cheap. Thinking the Old Gym was state of the Art. Making Al's life hell.
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Was Marquette even asked to join the original Big East?
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Not joining the Big East originally, realizing the cable TV was going to change everything. Passing on Denny Crum, Digger Phelps. Going cheap. Thinking the Old Gym was state of the Art. Making Al's life hell.
Gotcha. I wasn't alive for any of those so I have no insight.
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Sounds terrible, in my opinion.
That's my point .
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Gotcha. I wasn't alive for any of those so I have no insight.
Another very good point, they drove Al out as well. They want their cake and want to eat it at the same time. They want to be NYU or Princeton and Kentucky or Syracuse. Can't happen.
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Gotcha. I wasn't alive for any of those so I have no insight.
Now there is an honest statement without anger and with some maturity.
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Was Marquette even asked to join the original Big East?
Are you kidding, it was before the jet age.
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So Doc' Rivers don't know, hey?
One out of how many?
I think it's time for me to put my ignore button to work again and save myself some valuable time.
And I have to rest up as the Villanova game is on at 2 in the morning here. In the old days I would drive to a mountain top to try and get a signal from Milwaukee on a powerful radio, yes, I'm a little nuts.