Free Throws Again

[Lennys Tap]

  Amen Lenny!  Perfectly said.  Can you post the link to the Dodd's site/comments from WVU fans.  I'm pretty new here and am not familiar with Dodd's site.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5365534   


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5367403

Thanks for your kind words. Here are a couple of links. There's also a discussion over there with just MU fans talking about the job Buzz did but I don't have the link.

[Marquette84]

84 - You asked me in an earlier post if I was in the huddle and heard Buzz's talk with the team before Jimmy shot free throws.  No, I was not - neither were you.  To imply that Buzz didn't use the right psychology, when you weren't there is ridiculous.  We can be pretty confident Buzz didn't say, "Okay team, after Jimmy missese or chokes this free throw,  here is what we are going to do.  Common sense tells one the coach isn't going to make the above statement.

Of course you weren't there--so why are you going after me?

All I said was that you cannot 100% absolve the coach in this situation.  You seem to be treating me as if I said the coach deserves 100% of the blame--which is not the case.  All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to give him a complete pass.

If you think the coach CAN be 100% absolved from all blame without actually being in the huddle, please do that instead of continuing to attack me.

[Lennys Tap]

Of course you weren't there--so why are you going after me?

All I said was that you cannot 100% absolve the coach in this situation.  You seem to be treating me as if I said the coach deserves 100% of the blame--which is not the case.  All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to give him a complete pass.

If you think the coach CAN be 100% absolved from all blame without actually being in the huddle, please do that instead of continuing to attack me.

Since none of us are ever in the huddle, we can never 100% absolve any coach when something goes wrong. Even when something goes right we can't be 100% sure the coach didn't say the wrong thing in the huddle. So every time there is a huddle, one can say we can't say with 100% accuracy the coach didn't say something stupid. So what's your point?

[Marquette84]

How can you ask me to explain and defend a position ("confidence doesn't matter") that I never espoused?

Of course confidence matters

Well this was MY position--and you called is "bizarre."   Therefore, I concluded that you thought opposite.

I have no idea what Buzz said to the team before DJO's and Butler's free throws and neither do you.

Again--that was MY point.  The quote: "I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations."

Why is that such a "bizarre" statement?  You admit you weren't there.  There were exactly three possibilities--one (and only one) of the following is true:

a) Buzz did everything right and can be absolved 100% from any responsibility.
b) Buzz didn't do everything he could have, and thus shares responsibility with Butler & DJO.
c) Maybe Buzz actually said something (even inadvertently) that got in Butler's or DJO's head and led to the miss, and therefore deserves much of the blame.

You weren't there--you don't know which is correct.

Neither do I--but I'm not the one concluding that the coach is not to blame.

 psych 1 movie script bs.

I'm not going to debate you further on the psychology of basketball.  We're just going to disagree.  I think Al was a master of using psychology to get in the heads of his own players as well as the other team (and the other team's coach).  Wooden has made it one of the basic tenets of his theory.  Every great coach is also a great motivator.  Every great coach makes building confidence in his players a hallmark of his coaching.  I can't think of a single successful coach who is not a great motivator.

If you think its just "movie script bs" we're simply going to disagree on that.

[Lennys Tap]

Well this was MY position--and you called is "bizarre."   Therefore, I concluded that you thought opposite.



Again--that was MY point.  The quote: "I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations."

Why is that such a "bizarre" statement?  You admit you weren't there.  There were exactly three possibilities--one (and only one) of the following is true:

a) Buzz did everything right and can be absolved 100% from any responsibility.
b) Buzz didn't do everything he could have, and thus shares responsibility with Butler & DJO.
c) Maybe Buzz actually said something (even inadvertently) that got in Butler's or DJO's head and led to the miss, and therefore deserves much of the blame.

You weren't there--you don't know which is correct.

Neither do I--but I'm not the one concluding that the coach is not to blame.


I'm not going to debate you further on the psychology of basketball.  We're just going to disagree.  I think Al was a master of using psychology to get in the heads of his own players as well as the other team (and the other team's coach).  Wooden has made it one of the basic tenets of his theory.  Every great coach is also a great motivator.  Every great coach makes building confidence in his players a hallmark of his coaching.  I can't think of a single successful coach who is not a great motivator.

If you think its just "movie script bs" we're simply going to disagree on that.

You are a master at taking a phrase or a sentence out of context instead of addressing the totality of someone's arguement. This makes having any meaningful discussion or dialogue impossible. Happy New Year anyway.

[NersEllenson]

Of course you weren't there--so why are you going after me?

All I said was that you cannot 100% absolve the coach in this situation.  You seem to be treating me as if I said the coach deserves 100% of the blame--which is not the case.  All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to give him a complete pass.

If you think the coach CAN be 100% absolved from all blame without actually being in the huddle, please do that instead of continuing to attack me.

  First things first, my intention was not to belittle you, but rather question the validity of your statements.  The reason I was going after you, is because you were completely SPECULATING on what was said/wasn't said.  You acknowledge you were not there, so to imply that Buzz couldn't be completely absolved of any blame - well that was just speculation on your part.  Furthermore, I completely agree with what Lenny has posted - it is never a a bad idea to covera all possible scenarios at end of game free throw situations.  I don't think anyone denies that building a kids confidence as a coach, is part of the coaches job..but there is nothing tahat can be drawn from the end of this WVU game or Buzz's phillosophy of you get your confidence through your work, and the harder you work, the more confident you become.  We know these kids work their A$$ off and compete like almost no other team in America.

[NersEllenson]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5365534   


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5367403

Thanks for your kind words. Here are a couple of links. There's also a discussion over there with just MU fans talking about the job Buzz did but I don't have the link.

  Thanks for posting these Lenny - and you are welcome for the kind words - your post(s) just make a lot of sense  84- will hopefully come around in 2010!

[Marquette84]

Furthermore, I completely agree with what Lenny has posted - it is never a a bad idea to covera all possible scenarios at end of game free throw situations.  I don't think anyone denies that building a kids confidence as a coach, is part of the coaches job..but there is nothing tahat can be drawn from the end of this WVU game or Buzz's phillosophy of you get your confidence through your work, and the harder you work, the more confident you become.  We know these kids work their A$$ off and compete like almost no other team in America.

Fine.  For the sake of argument  I'll accept your and Lenny's speculation that Buzz didn't say anything that may have gotten in the heads of Butler or DJO.  I wasn't there, so we have to accept your speculation.  

Now then--you and Lenny have both made a strong case that Buzz needed to discuss the missed FT strategy.  

Since we know how the game ended, doesn't it suggest that either Buzz forgot to review the missed FT strategy, or that the defensive scheme he devised was ineffective?   Can we absolve Buzz 100% like some of the earlier posters tried to do?  Or does he share some of the blame?

[Lennys Tap]

Fine.  For the sake of argument  I'll accept your and Lenny's speculation that Buzz didn't say anything that may have gotten in the heads of Butler or DJO.  I wasn't there, so we have to accept your speculation.  

Now then--you and Lenny have both made a strong case that Buzz needed to discuss the missed FT strategy.  

Since we know how the game ended, doesn't it suggest that either Buzz forgot to review the missed FT strategy, or that the defensive scheme he devised was ineffective?   Can we absolve Buzz 100% like some of the earlier posters tried to do?  Or does he share some of the blame?

When DJO missed the free throw we led by 3 with 20+ seconds left. Proper strategy is to guard the 3 point line aggressively which is what DJO was doing when his man blew by him for the dunk. Right strategy, poor execution. When Butler missed with 10 seconds left we got back, Lazar played great on ball defense and forced an extremely difficult shot. Right strategy, good execution. Unfortunately, the turnaround, fadeaway 20 footer went in.

[NersEllenson]

Fine.  For the sake of argument  I'll accept your and Lenny's speculation that Buzz didn't say anything that may have gotten in the heads of Butler or DJO.  I wasn't there, so we have to accept your speculation.  

Now then--you and Lenny have both made a strong case that Buzz needed to discuss the missed FT strategy.  

Since we know how the game ended, doesn't it suggest that either Buzz forgot to review the missed FT strategy, or that the defensive scheme he devised was ineffective?   Can we absolve Buzz 100% like some of the earlier posters tried to do?  Or does he share some of the blame?

Once again I'm going to agree with Lenny on this one 84.  The cliche seems to ring true here, tha:  coaches coach and players play.  My personal opinion was that ZAR defended Desean Butler about as well as you could at the end of the game.  He turned him twice in his dribble upcourt, defended him the whole way up the court (which erases time), and forced Butler into a fadeaway 21 foot shot that went in.  Combine that with the fluke shot at halftime by Ebanks...and sometimes luck just isn't on your side, and coaching doesn't really have a whole lot to do with it.  That said, you are entitled to your opinion on this matter, and understand my intention wasn't to belittle you...but just that I had  a very different opionion about the end of game/Buzz's coaching.  I think we are doing GREAT this year, considering all that was lost, the injuries, transfer, schedule up to this point.  I am a BIG BUZZ Williams fan..think he has done a phenomonal job so far.  Therefore I probably react a little defensively to anyone questioning his coaching or the job he has done so far.

[Marquette84]

Once again I'm going to agree with Lenny on this one 84.  The cliche seems to ring true here, tha:  coaches coach and players play.  My personal opinion was that ZAR defended Desean Butler about as well as you could at the end of the game.  He turned him twice in his dribble upcourt, defended him the whole way up the court (which erases time), and forced Butler into a fadeaway 21 foot shot that went in.

Lazar did a decent job--individually.  However, if the play was supposed to get a defensive stop, clearing the court to play one-on-one wasn't the way to do it.

First, nobody but Lazar even attempted to go for the rebound--at the same time there was no hustle to set up on defense either.  Others stood around watching Lazar go for the ball.  Why wasn't another player nearby to double Butler?  Why didn't we try and force him to pass out of it.  WVU's weakness is a lack of ball handlers--and we gave them a pass.  Butler was completely free to dribble out after the board unimpeded.  No fault of Haywards--one defender can't stop a player by himself if that player still has his dribble and isn't boxed in by the sideline/endline. 

Second, if you're going to try an stop someone in the backcourt, what good was Lazar going to do by himself?  You are highly unlikely to get a backcourt stop with just one person. Where was Lazar trying to drive Butler?  To the sideline?  No one set up there to cut that off.  To the middle?  Nobody there either. 

Third, our defense was extremely disorganized -- to quote a oft used term on this board, our guys looked lost.  Look at Butler coming downcourt on the last play--he completely lost his man, then got stuck indecisively trying to decide if he should continue to look for his own player or helping on Butler on the shot. 

Finally, look at the positioning of WVU's rebounders as the shot was going up.  Even if he missed, there wasn't a blue shirt near the basket that could have secured the board.  WVU would have the ball within 3 feet, wide open, and 2 seconds left.  I'm sure you could simply say that's the players fault--but I have to think a veteran coach like Huggins had stressed rebounding (both the FT and a possible putback) in his huddle.   I'm not saying Buzz didn't stress it--but we don't know enough to conclude that it's all the players fault either. 

Ditto with the previous play--Lenny claimed that DJO was closely guarding the 3 point line as a good strategy--except Ebanks is a .200 point shooter (3 of 15 on the season).  He's much more dangerous on the drive--so a good strategy would have been to have DJO sag to prevent the drive, and challenged him to take the outside shot.  But even if holding the 3 point line is a good strategy--your plan has to call for a second defender to cover should he get beat out there.  Instead, we had three defenders on the far side of the court--which left a wide open path for Ebanks to drive.   Again, we don't know if a player blew a defensive assignment, or if they weren't properly coached.  I'm not trying to pin this 100% on Buzz--but we can't absolve him of blame either. 

If he truly did ask a player to defend the 3 point line for a .200 shooter, then I'll move the needle a bit. 

That said, you are entitled to your opinion on this matter, and understand my intention wasn't to belittle you...but just that I had  a very different opionion about the end of game/Buzz's coaching.  I think we are doing GREAT this year, considering all that was lost, the injuries, transfer, schedule up to this point.  I am a BIG BUZZ Williams fan..think he has done a phenomonal job so far.  Therefore I probably react a little defensively to anyone questioning his coaching or the job he has done so far.

Buzz has done a good job, but he's not beyond criticism.  And this is coming from someone who preferred Buzz over just about any other candidate save Sean Miller and Tony Bennett. 

For years the record in close games has been a proxy for bench coaching skills.  Mike Deane was regarded as a excellent bench coach because of he managed to win more close games than he lost.  Tom Crean was regarded as a step down because his record in close games wasn't as strong. 

There are three close losses this year that he shares at least some of the blame (FSU, NC State and WVU).  That's not to say he didn't put a masterful gameplan together against WVU--he did, and nothing I said took that away.  But you can't stick your head in the sand and pretend that the last minute was wonderfully coached.  There was too much confusion, too much hesitancy, a curious strategy on the last two defensive plays, and too much playing not to lose rather than playing to win to say that it was all on the players and the coach did everything right.

And I don't think holding this opinion warrants the type of personal insults that you and Lenny and Hayward inserted into the thread.     

[WarriorHal]

And we miss more crucial free throws against Nova. Two huge ones by DJO in the closing minutes and even one by Lazar with the game tied.

[MU B2002]

And we miss more crucial free throws against Nova. Two huge ones by DJO in the closing minutes and even one by Lazar with the game tied.

I will take 80.8% from the line just about any day, but yes the misses were in big spots.  DJO did not seem very pleased with himself after he missed that first one.

[Daniel]

DJO didn't have a good game today in any respect.  So he missed the free throws, which is how he was playing today.  I think he is the BEast leader in 3 pointers (like 59%), but I don't think he hit one todayl  Off game for himn as he has been outstanding lately.

Avanti.  Forward.  Georgetown is next.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I will take 80.8% from the line just about any day, but yes the misses were in big spots.  DJO did not seem very pleased with himself after he missed that first one.

I'd still love to know what our FT% is in the last 2 minutes.  Anyone know?

[MU B2002]

26-40

65%

Note: I can't believe I just went through the play by play, for every game, to answer your question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

26-40

65%

Note: I can't believe I just went through the play by play, for every game, to answer your question.

Thanks for doing that.  I can't remember what time frame they used to use...is it last 2 minutes or 4 minutes for "crunch time"?  (Don't worry, don't compute it....appreciate the effort).

Basically our FT% then goes down a few points during crunch time which isn't a total surprise considering the inexperience on the team.  I'm sure the more veteran teams have a percentage that actually goes up in the last couple of minutes.....hopefully that will come.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

Thanks for doing that.  I can't remember what time frame they used to use...is it last 2 minutes or 4 minutes for "crunch time"?  (Don't worry, don't compute it....appreciate the effort).

Basically our FT% then goes down a few points during crunch time which isn't a total surprise considering the inexperience on the team.  I'm sure the more veteran teams have a percentage that actually goes up in the last couple of minutes.....hopefully that will come.

Yeah, it's not a good number either way, but it's also not the total collapse either. Team is shooting 72.4% from the year from the line. Last year's team shot 72.8% from the line, so not far off from last year's team either thus far. 

Also, for those complaining about our current coach not practicing FTs, our predecessor coach's last 2 teams shot 66.9% and 70.6% in his last 2 years (2006-2007 and 2007-2008).  Not sure if he practiced FTs or not, but for the most part, what you are as a FT shooter by the time you get to college is what you're gonna be IMO.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah, it's not a good number either way, but it's also not the total collapse either. Team is shooting 72.4% from the year from the line. Last year's team shot 72.8% from the line, so not far off from last year's team either thus far. 

Also, for those complaining about our current coach not practicing FTs, our predecessor coach's last 2 teams shot 66.9% and 70.6% in his last 2 years (2006-2007 and 2007-2008).  Not sure if he practiced FTs or not, but for the most part, what you are as a FT shooter by the time you get to college is what you're gonna be IMO.

I'd be interested in knowing what our crunch time free throws were in those last few years under the former coach.

[4everwarriors]

The former, now departed had DJ as a point guard for 3 season; 'nough said about free throw percentages.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The former, now departed had DJ as a point guard for 3 season; 'nough said about free throw percentages.

Actually, if you look at DJ's free throw % it went down dramatically his senior year.  You might want to change your hypothesis.  


DJ shot 46.1% his senior year

He shot 65.2% from his Freshman to Junior years and improved EVERY year by about 1 point.

I've never seen a player improve 3 straight years in FT's and then go down almost 20 percentage points his last year in FTs.  Never seen it, but I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

[El Duderino]

I will take 80.8% from the line just about any day, but yes the misses were in big spots.  DJO did not seem very pleased with himself after he missed that first one.

He to me looked like a guy at the line that was talking to himself instead of just shooting. After he missed the first free throw today combined with what happened against WV, i knew he would miss the second one. Free throw shooting is nothing more than a muscle memory exercise. Late in close games, it doesn't take much nerves wise to throw off a shooters mechanics, especially when they have time to just stand there and think about not missing them.

If a guy has to hit say a late jumper instead, they have the flow of everything going on to stop them from thinking about shooting the ball correctly, it's just elevate and shoot like they've done countless times. Muscle memory takes over. Standing on that free throw line though late in close games is entirely a different story. It's just you and all eyes are on you. You have time where your brain can start messing with you. Fans are either screaming or dead quiet. I've never played college ball and won't claim high school is the same, but i've been in that spot and choked. It affected me for a few games afterwards each time i went to the line and the game was close. I'd think about keeping my mechanics right instead of just shooting. I no longer was confident i'd make them even though i was a good free throw shooter.

Man that feeling sucks standing there and thinking over and over, please don't miss this in your own head and knowing you likely will.

[MU B2002]

Man that feeling sucks standing there and thinking over and over, please don't miss this in your own head and knowing you likely will.

Kind of like standing on a tee box in front of water thinking, "i am going to be fine as long as I don't hit it in the water..." splash.