MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: jesmu84 on November 11, 2015, 10:59:36 AM
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https://www.yahoo.com/food/joes-crab-shack-tests-no-tipping-model-132305833.html
https://www.youtube.com/v/q_vivC7c_1k
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I think it's going the way of the dodo. And it's probably a good thing.
Not too many other professions in which you're expected to do your job, and only after you've completed it does your customer decide how much (or whether) to pay you.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/dining/danny-meyer-restaurants-no-tips.html?_r=0
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I think it's going the way of the dodo. And it's probably a good thing.
Not too many other professions in which you're expected to do your job, and only after you've completed it does your customer decide how much (or whether) to pay you.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/dining/danny-meyer-restaurants-no-tips.html?_r=0
I get it, but I travel extensively in Europe and generally the level I get in restaurants at various locations within Europe is significantly poorer than in the US. There could be a cultural element as well, but I do think there is an aspect to the positive feedback for tipping.
Having said that, if there is a way to maintain the current service standard of restaurants and eliminate the need for tipping, I'd be all for it.
Note: didn't read the article yet so if this point is covered my apologizes
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I get it, but I travel extensively in Europe and generally the level I get in restaurants at various locations within Europe is significantly poorer than in the US. There could be a cultural element as well, but I do think there is an aspect to the positive feedback for tipping.
Having said that, if there is a way to maintain the current service standard of restaurants and eliminate the need for tipping, I'd be all for it.
Note: didn't read the article yet so if this point is covered my apologizes
Having spent many years in Japan I know that impeccable service is possible without tipping. Tipping is considered an insult in Japan. They have a very different paradigm about service, social interaction, interpersonal relationships, and human dignity.
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Having spent many years in Japan I know that impeccable service is possible without tipping. Tipping is considered an insult in Japan. They have a very different paradigm about service, social interaction, interpersonal relationships, and human dignity.
Having waited tables for a year in Guam, I'm familiar with how Japanese view tipping. Fortunately, I think most of their tour guides/books told them that I would not be insulted. They knew they were "supposed" to tip me, but sometimes really didn't understand "how" to tip me. It generally wasn't a problem, though, and they usually left me pretty standard tips.
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Here's your tip:
Plant your crops early this year, hey?
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I get it, but I travel extensively in Europe and generally the level I get in restaurants at various locations within Europe is significantly poorer than in the US. There could be a cultural element as well, but I do think there is an aspect to the positive feedback for tipping.
Having said that, if there is a way to maintain the current service standard of restaurants and eliminate the need for tipping, I'd be all for it.
Note: didn't read the article yet so if this point is covered my apologizes
I see what you're saying, but if tipping is necessary to maintain a level of service at restaurants, why not in every other service-related industry.
I don't get to decide how much (or whether) to pay my mechanic after he fixes my car and I've had some time to decide if it met my standards. If his work is subpar, I'll find another mechanic and/or make management aware of the poor service. If my service at Friday's is subpar, I'll go to Chili's*.
* = I don't really eat at Friday's or Chili's. I do, however, love Chotchkie's.
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Having waited tables for a year in Guam, I'm familiar with how Japanese view tipping. Fortunately, I think most of their tour guides/books told them that I would not be insulted. They knew they were "supposed" to tip me, but sometimes really didn't understand "how" to tip me. It generally wasn't a problem, though, and they usually left me pretty standard tips.
Hafa adai!
I used to fly into Andersen, if only to get out of the Misawa winters. The Chamorro food is great, especially the roast chicken and babui.
I first had Chamorro lechon or babui at Marquette. One of the RAs was Guamo Camacho who went on to become the Governor of Guam (I think his father was also a Governor, too.) We would dig a pit in the field between the old mansion and McCormick and roast a piglet all weekend. Great stuff.
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Tipping is just yet another way corporations attempt to get out of compensating employees.
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Having spent many years in Japan I know that impeccable service is possible without tipping. Tipping is considered an insult in Japan. They have a very different paradigm about service, social interaction, interpersonal relationships, and human dignity.
Agreed, that's why I referenced service as a functional component. I wouldn't be opposed to trying here.
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I see what you're saying, but if tipping is necessary to maintain a level of service at restaurants, why not in every other service-related industry.
I don't get to decide how much (or whether) to pay my mechanic after he fixes my car and I've had some time to decide if it met my standards. If his work is subpar, I'll find another mechanic and/or make management aware of the poor service. If my service at Friday's is subpar, I'll go to Chili's*.
* = I don't really eat at Friday's or Chili's. I do, however, love Chotchkie's.
That's a very good point....and do you count their flair??
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Hafa adai!
I used to fly into Andersen, if only to get out of the Misawa winters. The Chamorro food is great, especially the roast chicken and babui.
I first had Chamorro lechon or babui at Marquette. One of the RAs was Guamo Camacho who went on to become the Governor of Guam (I think his father was also a Governor, too.) We would dig a pit in the field between the old mansion and McCormick and roast a piglet all weekend. Great stuff.
Hafa!
At the time I was at Marquette, we had more students from Guam than any non-west coast school. Leo Flynn, the Dean of Admissions at the time, recruited heavily in Guam and made an annual recruiting trip. That's how I ended up at Marquette; he visited my high school one day.
The Chamorro food (and the Filipino food) was incredible. Red rice; kelaguen; roast chicken and pig; corn chowder; pancit; lumpia; etc. The fiestas were wonderful.
Speaking of food-related customs and insults, we learned a couple in Guam. First, as the only Haoles at many parties, we learned early that we were expected to go through the line first. People would wait until we did. We always found it awkward, and tried to be very gracious about accepting the hospitality shown us. Second, we learned that taking a couple of fully-loaded paper plates home from a party was not optional. It was a terrible insult to the hosts/cooks to not take the food home. At the first private fiesta we went to, the boy who invited us came to us as we were preparing to leave and said, "You should make a couple of plates to take home." We said, "Thank you, it's not necessary...thank you so much..." He replied, "You don't understand. You need to take a couple of plates home. Otherwise, my grandmother will be insulted and think you did not like her food." It was a local custom we were more than happy to oblige.
Guam has some interesting history with its governors. The governor at the time we were there was indicted shortly before the election. Just before he was scheduled to be hauled off to prison, he chained himself to a statue in the traffic circle in downtown Agana, draped himself in Guam's flag, set up a plaque that said, "I regret that I only have one life to give to my island" and put a bullet in his head. Quite a dramatic exit. His wife later became Lt. Governor and currently serves as Guam's representative in the house.
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Tips added to a credit card bill are almost always taxed.
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I worked for 20 years in the service industry and appreciate the value of tipping.
I'd love to see a minimum wage hike with a reduced emphasis on tipping, but as it is, if someone is working for $2/hr and I'm taking up a significant portion of their time, I'm willing to award them 20+% for their efforts.
It's not the servers fault that the system is broken
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Tipping is just yet another way corporations attempt to get out of compensating employees.
But of course if you eliminated tipping and hiked them up to the minimum wage or better, you would just have to increase the price of the food.
Most good bartenders LOVE tipping. Especially when cash is involved.
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But of course if you eliminated tipping and hiked them up to the minimum wage or better, you would just have to increase the price of the food.
Most good bartenders LOVE tipping. Especially when cash is involved.
Or take smaller margins. Granted, that may not work for every restaurant/bar. And yes, some might go out of business. But, free market, right?
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Most good bartenders LOVE tipping. Especially when cash is involved.
This.
As a person who had done my share of waitressing in my pre-accountant days (my first gig was at Shoney's Big Boy), I can promise you that tips are the most untaxed form of income in the U.S. Sure, you are supposed to declare it all, but all servers and bartenders know that if you claim at least 8% of the check, the IRS basically leaves you alone. So if you serve $500 worth of food and drinks on a given evening, your tips are coincidentally $41, at least as far as your IRS form 4070 is concerned.
Servers at busy, reasonably upscale restaurants can easily earn mid- to upper five figures a year. I can't imagine there are many places who are willing to pay that in wages for what is basically a low-skill job.
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Resevoir Dogs clip should be in here
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20% minimum everywhere. Far higher for great service.
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I can promise you that tips are the most untaxed form of income in the U.S.
That's not what my dealer sez when I am picking up my brown...
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20% minimum everywhere. Far higher for great service.
My father-in-law prefers the standard 3%. Then I have to wait for him to leave so I can put a 10-spot on the table.
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My father-in-law prefers the standard 3%. Then I have to wait for him to leave so I can put a 10-spot on the table.
You father-in-law stories are priceless!
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I don't care either way. We belong to a club that adds a 20% "service fee" to every order, and then the expectation is that no tips be given. Reality is, 75% of the time I end up putting additional cash on for the server as well. My point? It doesn't matter. Gonna cost me the same...more actually, as prices will go up to cover the additional money needed to pay the servers, and I will likely end up tipping good servers additional as well.
I guess I like the tipping model better because it give me more control. Also if you frequent Crain places regularly, tipping well can pay off in how you are treated.
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Tipping is just yet another way corporations attempt to get out of compensating employees.
I cannot think of an industry that is less dominated by corporations than bars and restaurants.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38
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I cannot think of an industry that is less dominated by corporations than bars and restaurants.
Agree, most are mom and pop joints. The corp ones tend to be fast food, where tipping isn't done. Obviously exceptions with chain, sit down places.
I'm all for eliminating tips and taxing these people the way everyone else is taxed. In fact, I'm shocked that the revenue grabbers in the gov't haven't made this law so they can get more $$$$
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Resevoir Dogs clip should be in here
That's a buck a piece.
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I cannot think of an industry that is less dominated by corporations than bars and restaurants.
And I have worked for all sorts of organizations, and I can tell you that privately-held businesses, as a general rule, tend to be far less ethical and are more likely to rip off employees than publicly-held corporations. This is especially true if the company is owned by one person or family.
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And I have worked for all sorts of organizations, and I can tell you that privately-held businesses, as a general rule, tend to be far less ethical and are more likely to rip off employees than publicly-held corporations. This is especially true if the company is owned by one person or family.
(http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/ebenezer-scrooge-150x150.jpg)
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I have a neighbor that has been a server her whole life. She works the breakfast and lunch shift, m-f. She makes great tips and a very respectable living and is very happy in what she does. Taking away tips would be a huge reduction in her income.
Getting rid of tips is a very short sided, union driven issue. Unions can't take credit for the tips you make. They can take credit for the base wages they negotiate for you. This is not a pro or anti union comment....just a fact.
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I have a neighbor that has been a server her whole life. She works the breakfast and lunch shift, m-f. She makes great tips and a very respectable living and is very happy in what she does. Taking away tips would be a huge reduction in her income.
Getting rid of tips is a very short sided, union driven issue. Unions can't take credit for the tips you make. They can take credit for the base wages they negotiate for you. This is not a pro or anti union comment....just a fact.
Did she used to work the evening shift at the Nook?
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I would be totally behind a movement to eliminate the Tip Jar and counter-service restaurants.
As Jerry Seinfeld said once, "What? Am I supposed to the guy a tip for just turning around?"
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You father-in-law stories are priceless!
He's something else. I should be writing all this stuff down. Would probably make a good book.
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I guess I like the tipping model better because it give me more control. Also if you frequent Crain places regularly, tipping well can pay off in how you are treated.
This. My dad and I are treated like kings at our local Buffalo Wild Wings. My dad is a notoriously good tipper a trait he got from his father and I go from the both of them. Most of our beers at B dubs aren't even charged to us anymore. Plus you never know what kind of day the server is having.
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I don't like the idea of "banning" tipping. It is a free country and I should be allowed to tip if I feel the service warranted it.
What do I like is companies paying their workers enough to survive on, with or without a tip.
I was in Europe about 2 years ago, and I prefer the model they have there. Bartenders and waiters are paid enough to live on. Tipping is not expected, but common when the service provided deserves it. When I had good service, I gave an extra 2 or 3 euros, and it was genuinely appreciated, not just expected as part of the bill.
I'd gladly take a 15-20% increase in restaurant prices (I always tip 20% anyway), and make tipping purely optional.
You could still tip $5 or $10 and get treated like "kings."
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I have a neighbor that has been a server her whole life. She works the breakfast and lunch shift, m-f. She makes great tips and a very respectable living and is very happy in what she does. Taking away tips would be a huge reduction in her income.
Getting rid of tips is a very short sided, union driven issue. Unions can't take credit for the tips you make. They can take credit for the base wages they negotiate for you. This is not a pro or anti union comment....just a fact.
The great majority of servers don't belong to unions.
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I don't like the idea of "banning" tipping. It is a free country and I should be allowed to tip if I feel the service warranted it.
What do I like is companies paying their workers enough to survive on, with or without a tip.
I was in Europe about 2 years ago, and I prefer the model they have there. Bartenders and waiters are paid enough to live on. Tipping is not expected, but common when the service provided deserves it. When I had good service, I gave an extra 2 or 3 euros, and it was genuinely appreciated, not just expected as part of the bill.
I'd gladly take a 15-20% increase in restaurant prices (I always tip 20% anyway), and make tipping purely optional.
You could still tip $5 or $10 and get treated like "kings."
This. The problem here is tips are expected. It shouldn't be that way. Pay your staff enough and I'll tip if the service is good.
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The great majority of servers don't belong to unions.
Not yet. ;) But wait until tipping goes away.
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This. The problem here is tips are expected. It shouldn't be that way. Pay your staff enough and I'll tip if the service is good.
Coming with that means higher prices for the food, etc, and less business......
Not so easy
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Coming with that means higher prices for the food, etc, and less business......
Not so easy
It is easy. Do it that way. Higher food prices, etc. People will pay if the price is right. Free market, as I see said here a lot.
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Coming with that means higher prices for the food, etc, and less business......
Not so easy
Higher prices + no (or less) tipping = its a wash for the customer.
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I will admit bartenders are a slightly different animal. They generally make at the least the normal minimum wage and get tips (at least I did when I tended bar - think I was making over $8 an hour when minimum wage was under $7 in Wisconsin - plus healthy tips).
I think the real issue is wait staff who is still being paid $2 an hour and completely relies on tips, all because of a carve-out that allows their employers to not follow the minimum wage everyone else has to follow. That needs to be done away with.
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I think that most tipped servers would quit on the spot if their boss told them, "Hey, good news! We're raising you to the non-tipped minimum wage! But, we'll no longer accept tips at this restaurant." If you're waiting tables at a restaurant and you're not making well above minimum wage, you should be looking for a new restaurant (or working a different shift). When I last waited tables I was probably making at least $7-$10/hr in tips (and minimum wage was $3.35 at the time). I worked short shifts (4 or 5 hours) and usually made $30-$40 in tips -- occasionally much more.
Granted, I'm sure they'd love minimum wage and tips. But for those who argue that we should shift the cost from the customers to the employers, that almost certainly would result in a significant reduction in servers' compensation. The customer is going to pay it one way or the other, but at least with the tipping system you can be more sure it's going into the server's pocket.
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Oops -- accidental double-post.
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I think that most tipped servers would quit on the spot if their boss told them, "Hey, good news! We're raising you to the non-tipped minimum wage! But, we'll no longer accept tips at this restaurant." If you're waiting tables at a restaurant and you're not making well above minimum wage, you should be looking for a new restaurant (or working a different shift). When I last waited tables I was probably making at least $7-$10/hr in tips (and minimum wage was $3.35 at the time). I worked short shifts (4 or 5 hours) and usually made $30-$40 in tips -- occasionally much more.
Granted, I'm sure they'd love minimum wage and tips. But for those who argue that we should shift the cost from the customers to the employers, that almost certainly would result in a significant reduction in servers' compensation. The customer is going to pay it one way or the other, but at least with the tipping system you can be more sure it's going into the server's pocket.
Why would a restaurant say no to allowing tips if they went minimum wage?
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Why would a restaurant say no to allowing tips if they went minimum wage?
It would probably depend on whether the restaurant owner made the decision or the government made the decision for them.
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I think that most tipped servers would quit on the spot if their boss told them, "Hey, good news! We're raising you to the non-tipped minimum wage! But, we'll no longer accept tips at this restaurant." If you're waiting tables at a restaurant and you're not making well above minimum wage, you should be looking for a new restaurant (or working a different shift). When I last waited tables I was probably making at least $7-$10/hr in tips (and minimum wage was $3.35 at the time). I worked short shifts (4 or 5 hours) and usually made $30-$40 in tips -- occasionally much more.
Granted, I'm sure they'd love minimum wage and tips. But for those who argue that we should shift the cost from the customers to the employers, that almost certainly would result in a significant reduction in servers' compensation. The customer is going to pay it one way or the other, but at least with the tipping system you can be more sure it's going into the server's pocket.
I wasn't suggesting they only get paid minimum wage with no tips.
If tips are gong to be truly optional, they need to be paid a living wage.
The minimum wage should be a living wage, but I digress...
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Why would a restaurant say no to allowing tips if they went minimum wage?
Whether they say it or not, it would be the same effect. If the customer knows that the wait staff is getting paid by the employer what was previously covered by tip...I think few people would tip on top of the increased pricing.
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The minimum wage should be a living wage, but I digress...
Why?
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Why?
There are two different arguments, a moral argument and an economic argument. I believe it would be good for the economy. Many others believe so as well. Some people of good faith may disagree with this, and that's fine, economics is a social science, and different conclusions can be arrived at in social sciences.
However, I see no legitimate moral argument for a company paying its full-time workers less than needed for basic food and shelter, which are human rights and the minimum requirements for ensuring basic human dignity. This moral argument is also enshrined in Catholic social teaching (Rerum Novarum).
"Let the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in particular let them agree freely as to the wages; nevertheless, there underlies a dictate of natural justice more imperious and ancient than any bargain between man and man, namely, that wages ought not to be insufficient to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better, he is made the victim of force and injustice."
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There are two different arguments, a moral argument and an economic argument. I believe it would be good for the economy. Many others believe so as well. Some people of good faith may disagree with this, and that's fine, economics is a social science, and different conclusions can be arrived at in social sciences.
However, I see no legitimate moral argument for a company paying its full-time workers less than needed for basic food and shelter, which are human rights and the minimum requirements for ensuring basic human dignity. This moral argument is also enshrined in Catholic social teaching (Rerum Novarum).
"Let the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in particular let them agree freely as to the wages; nevertheless, there underlies a dictate of natural justice more imperious and ancient than any bargain between man and man, namely, that wages ought not to be insufficient to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better, he is made the victim of force and injustice."
Does a 16-year-old who just wants to make some spending money need to earn a living wage? Or a spouse who is a secondary wage earner?
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Does a 16-year-old who just wants to make some spending money need to earn a living wage? Or a spouse who is a secondary wage earner?
If they are both in a situation where they have to be working full-time, then probably.
The law must ensure justice. That is the principle aim of law.
If there are full-time workers who are not being paid a living wage, there is injustice in society. This must be given first consideration above all else. Preferential treatment for the poor is a moral imperative. If, as a side-effect, a kid working 15 hours a week is paid slightly more than he needs, there is still no injustice being done. Regardless, this could be easily remedied by having a carve-out for people under 18.
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Does a 16-year-old who just wants to make some spending money need to earn a living wage? Or a spouse who is a secondary wage earner?
Only about 28 percent of minimum wage earners are teens, a bunch of which I imagine are trying to do more than make some spending money. More than half are older than 25.
If you have a way to legally create a separate minimum wage exclusively for spouses who are secondary age earners, I'd love to hear more about that.
But only about 20 percent of minimum wage earners are married (much less married secondary earners), I'm not sure it matters much.
Suffice to say, the people you speak of are the minority of minimum wage earners.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf
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Only about 28 percent of minimum wage earners are teens, a bunch of which I imagine are trying to do more than make some spending money.
This is a very salient point.
My great grandfather died when my grandfather was 14 years old. He dropped out of high school and immediately began working to support his family.
Is his situation undeserving of a living wage?
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This is a very salient point.
My great grandfather died when my grandfather was 14 years old. He dropped out of high school and immediately began working to support his family.
Exactly how many 14-year-olds in 2015 are working full-time to support their families?
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Exactly how many 14-year-olds in 2015 are working full-time to support their families?
The point is, how do you know each of their situations?
And anyway, we are quibbling over a minority of minimum wage workers, as Pakuni has already stated.
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It would probably depend on whether the restaurant owner made the decision or the government made the decision for them.
Under what authority would the government ban tips?
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Under what authority would the government ban tips?
I meant about having tipped employees making minimum wage.
If a restaurant makes a decision to increase its wages and eliminate tipping, and people did it anyway, it would create a huge headache for the owners. First of all, all the tax recordkeeping for tips is a major pain in the a$$, which you are more likely to tolerate if the tradeoff is lower wages. Secondly, all the full-wage employees who were used to getting tipped out are going to hate the fact that they aren't getting tips anymore, but the servers are. The owner would have already had to increase the wages to make up for the mandatory tip-outs, and now they are going to demand even more.
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If they are both in a situation where they have to be working full-time, then probably.
I don't see that term in the Catholic social teaching you quoted. I see nothing in the text you quote stating that the employer must pay enough to "to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner" in exchange for 40 hours of work.
Any time we're talking about a living wage, it seems that it is often premised upon the assumption that one person should be able to support a family while working 40 hours in a week. The forty hour workweek is man-made concept -- and is of relatively recent origin. But it is assumed by living wage advocates as if it is a God-given right. I know very few households that are supported by one 40-hour earner. Most families that I know have one who works significantly more, or two that are working 40 hours (or more). I have a hard time understanding why the vast majority of living wage advocates ignore this. Two people working 40 hours per week (or one person working two "full time" jobs) will earn more than $30,000 per year - even at minimum wage. Does it suck? Sure. Just like it sucks that I worked about 80 hours a week in October. Working sucks sometimes. Especially if you have no marketable skills. But in my opinion, any discussion of a "living wage" needs to start by abandoning the notion that someone who has very few skills should expect to be supported on day one of employment in exchange for working far fewer hours than virtually everyone I know.
I'll leave my thoughts on the "frugal and well-behaved" concept for another day.
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Why would a restaurant say no to allowing tips if they went minimum wage?
I recognize that. My post was really a response to those (like the guy in the video in the first post) who say that we should abolish tipping altogether and/or shift this cost from the customer to the employer.
I also happen to think -- like mu03eng -- that if the wage rate was increased for servers, many people would significantly reduce what they tip or eliminate it altogether. What has developed from our tipping system is a class of pretty decent paying jobs that don't require a lot of skill.
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All you folks with your moral imperatives and common decency ... please!
If we increase wages for these people, how the heck will CEOs get by on $6.4 million per year instead of $16.4 million?
Think of those severely put-upon, middle-aged, white, 0.1-percenters for a change, won't ya?
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All you folks with your moral imperatives and common decency ... please!
If we increase wages for these people, how the heck will CEOs get by on $6.4 million per year instead of $16.4 million?
Think of those severely put-upon, middle-aged, white, 0.1-percenters for a change, won't ya?
What about the guy who has two minimum-wage employees and clears $50 grand a year on his business? I promise you there are way more of those types of folks that $16 million/year CEOS.
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I meant about having tipped employees making minimum wage.
If a restaurant makes a decision to increase its wages and eliminate tipping, and people did it anyway, it would create a huge headache for the owners. First of all, all the tax recordkeeping for tips is a major pain in the a$$, which you are more likely to tolerate if the tradeoff is lower wages. Secondly, all the full-wage employees who were used to getting tipped out are going to hate the fact that they aren't getting tips anymore, but the servers are. The owner would have already had to increase the wages to make up for the mandatory tip-outs, and now they are going to demand even more.
1. And yet it's restaurant owners who are doing this. It appears at least some of them don't expect (or aren't facing) the hassle you're predicting.
2. Doormen, hotel maids, hair stylists, etc., all earn at least minimum wage AND get tips, and somehow it hasn't led to calamity.
3. I doubt many restaurant owners are going to panic over the wage demands of their bus staff which, let's be honest, is almost certainly made up of non-citizens who aren't in position to make such demands.
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One of the greatest things about America is that if you - as a citizen - want a $15/hr minimum wage, you can move freely to any one of those locales you wish. No work permits, no temporary visas, no border crossings, no showing your papers, etc. If you're eligible for employment in Milwaukee, you're eligible for employment in Seattle... whether intended or not, a federation of states was one of the greatest moves our founding fathers made.
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3. I doubt many restaurant owners are going to panic over the wage demands of their bus staff which, let's be honest, is almost certainly made up of non-citizens who aren't in position to make such demands.
Just imagine how much wages would increase if they actually enforced immigration laws. Millions of jobs would suddenly become available, and business owners would have to compete with each other for workers.
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What about the guy who has two minimum-wage employees and clears $50 grand a year on his business? I promise you there are way more of those types of folks that $16 million/year CEOS.
Oh, I know chickadee. I can't resist getting in a dig or two at the bigwigs who run the big chains, but your point is well taken.
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Just imagine how much wages would increase if they actually enforced immigration laws. Millions of jobs would suddenly become available, and business owners would have to compete with each other for workers.
Methinks that many of the small-business owners you talked about just a few posts up -- the guy who has two minimum-wage employees and clears $50 grand a year on his business -- would go belly-up if this happens.
And all of a sudden, we don't care too much about that guy because we need to get rid of all them rapin' Mexicans.
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Just imagine how much wages would increase if they actually enforced immigration laws. Millions of jobs would suddenly become available high-paying, and business owners would have to compete with each other for lay off workers to afford it or go out of business.
FTFY.
Seriously, if your argument is that business can't afford a higher minimum wage, how do think they'll afford the increased pay that will come about once they lose the wage depression provided by immigrant labor?
I'll hang up and listen to your answer.
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I meant about having tipped employees making minimum wage.
If a restaurant makes a decision to increase its wages and eliminate tipping, and people did it anyway, it would create a huge headache for the owners. First of all, all the tax recordkeeping for tips is a major pain in the a$$, which you are more likely to tolerate if the tradeoff is lower wages. Secondly, all the full-wage employees who were used to getting tipped out are going to hate the fact that they aren't getting tips anymore, but the servers are. The owner would have already had to increase the wages to make up for the mandatory tip-outs, and now they are going to demand even more.
So? Those employees upset with their income situation can change jobs. Either become servers or do something else. Free market
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I don't see that term in the Catholic social teaching you quoted. I see nothing in the text you quote stating that the employer must pay enough to "to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner" in exchange for 40 hours of work.
Any time we're talking about a living wage, it seems that it is often premised upon the assumption that one person should be able to support a family while working 40 hours in a week. The forty hour workweek is man-made concept -- and is of relatively recent origin. But it is assumed by living wage advocates as if it is a God-given right. I know very few households that are supported by one 40-hour earner. Most families that I know have one who works significantly more, or two that are working 40 hours (or more). I have a hard time understanding why the vast majority of living wage advocates ignore this. Two people working 40 hours per week (or one person working two "full time" jobs) will earn more than $30,000 per year - even at minimum wage. Does it suck? Sure. Just like it sucks that I worked about 80 hours a week in October. Working sucks sometimes. Especially if you have no marketable skills. But in my opinion, any discussion of a "living wage" needs to start by abandoning the notion that someone who has very few skills should expect to be supported on day one of employment in exchange for working far fewer hours than virtually everyone I know.
I'll leave my thoughts on the "frugal and well-behaved" concept for another day.
This is a brilliant counter point to the living wage argument, thank you.
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FTFY.
Seriously, if your argument is that business can't afford a higher minimum wage, how do think they'll afford the increased pay that will come about once they lose the wage depression provided by immigrant labor?
I'll hang up and listen to your answer.
Market forces. Prices go up when unemployment is low. I lived in Boston during the Dukakis "Massachusetts Miracle " Federal minimum wage was $3.35 an hour, but true minimum wage in the Boston area was closer to $7.00 an hour because that is what people had to pay in order to entice people to work for them. They had to charge more, but people paid it because everyone who wanted a job had one, and had money to spend. If you arbitrarily force someone to pay higher wages just because., that doesn't happen. And some business owners went out of business because they couldn't compete in that market. Happens every day, and that's the way it is supposed to work.
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Any time we're talking about a living wage, it seems that it is often premised upon the assumption that one person should be able to support a family while working 40 hours in a week. The forty hour workweek is man-made concept -- and is of relatively recent origin. But it is assumed by living wage advocates as if it is a God-given right. I know very few households that are supported by one 40-hour earner. Most families that I know have one who works significantly more, or two that are working 40 hours (or more). I have a hard time understanding why the vast majority of living wage advocates ignore this. Two people working 40 hours per week (or one person working two "full time" jobs) will earn more than $30,000 per year - even at minimum wage. Does it suck? Sure. Just like it sucks that I worked about 80 hours a week in October. Working sucks sometimes. Especially if you have no marketable skills. But in my opinion, any discussion of a "living wage" needs to start by abandoning the notion that someone who has very few skills should expect to be supported on day one of employment in exchange for working far fewer hours than virtually everyone I know.
It is not just that having two-full time workers "sucks."
Not all children have married parents. Or even two parents. Should they be deprived of food and shelter because your requirement of a living wage is that there be two earners?
In your other alternative, one person works two-full time jobs. Is this a pro-family position?
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What about the guy who has two minimum-wage employees and clears $50 grand a year on his business? I promise you there are way more of those types of folks that $16 million/year CEOS.
Then he will either A) absorb the increase by raising prices or cutting costs ... B) He won't be able to and will close.
That's how our capitalist system works. There is no free market. There hasn't been in over 100 years, when companies used child slave labor and sweatshops. We have all kinds of regulations and rules to protect employees and consumers. Surely you aren't suggesting we go back to the old days?
The employer will adapt and survive, or he won't. That's American capitalism.
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This is a brilliant counter point to the living wage argument, thank you.
Not really. But ok.
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nm
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Not really. But ok.
Why not really? Summary of the living wage argument:
-I should be able to make enough money as a single earner to feed, house, and clothe a family of four
-That work week should be 40 hours a week at a very low skill/no skill job.
-Any inflationary pressures that results from a uniform raising of all wages resulting in a corresponding increase in cost to retailers resulting in a corresponding increase in market price is not going to happen because I said so.
Anything I missed?
Why is it unreasonable to ask someone to earn $30,000(post-tax) a year to work 70 hours a week at a low or no skill job? That's a salary of $9.50 an hour (15% tax rate for head of household at $35000 income).
I would hate that and I bet so would the rest of us.....but we all did something in our lives to make sure we wouldn't be in that position to have to live that life.*
*People not having opportunities to avoid that choice is valid, but the mechanism of correction has nothing to do with paying them a living wage(too late at that point)
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All you folks with your moral imperatives and common decency ... please!
If we increase wages for these people, how the heck will CEOs get by on $6.4 million per year instead of $16.4 million?
Think of those severely put-upon, middle-aged, white, 0.1-percenters for a change, won't ya?
These lowly people are already paid an average of $4.94/hr by their employers. What more do they want from us?
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Just imagine how much wages would increase if they actually enforced immigration laws. Millions of jobs would suddenly become available, and business owners would have to compete with each other for workers.
Sorry. Your white friend's children are not going to rush to the marketplace for fruit/vegetable picking jobs or maid jobs.
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Why not really? Summary of the living wage argument:
-I should be able to make enough money as a single earner to feed, house, and clothe a family of four
-That work week should be 40 hours a week at a very low skill/no skill job.
-Any inflationary pressures that results from a uniform raising of all wages resulting in a corresponding increase in cost to retailers resulting in a corresponding increase in market price is not going to happen because I said so.
Anything I missed?
Why is it unreasonable to ask someone to earn $30,000(post-tax) a year to work 70 hours a week at a low or no skill job? That's a salary of $9.50 an hour (15% tax rate for head of household at $35000 income).
I would hate that and I bet so would the rest of us.....but we all did something in our lives to make sure we wouldn't be in that position to have to live that life.*
*People not having opportunities to avoid that choice is valid, but the mechanism of correction has nothing to do with paying them a living wage(too late at that point)
$9.50 is well above the $7.25 federal minimum wage. It sounds to me like you are supporting a 31% increase in the minimum wage. Glad to have you on board.
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It is not just that having two-full time workers "sucks."
Not all children have married parents. Or even two parents. Should they be deprived of food and shelter because your requirement of a living wage is that there be two earners?
In your other alternative, one person works two-full time jobs. Is this a pro-family position?
Those are legitimate points. There are other ways to address those concerns aside from increasing the minimum wage. Many of those are already in place. If the concern is food and shelter, develop and/or fix policies that are designed to provide food and shelter. I do not object to policies/programs that would take such issues into consideration and supplement earned income to provide a basic social safety net. I simply object to the assumption that everyone must be able to support a family on one 40-hour week job.
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$9.50 is well above the $7.25 federal minimum wage. It sounds to me like you are supporting a 31% increase in the minimum wage. Glad to have you on board.
How many people are actually making the Federal minimum wage?
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf (http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf)
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How many people are actually making the Federal minimum wage?
Nobody in Ohio -- $8.10 here with automatic increases tied to CPI.
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Market forces. Prices go up when unemployment is low. I lived in Boston during the Dukakis "Massachusetts Miracle " Federal minimum wage was $3.35 an hour, but true minimum wage in the Boston area was closer to $7.00 an hour because that is what people had to pay in order to entice people to work for them. They had to charge more, but people paid it because everyone who wanted a job had one, and had money to spend. If you arbitrarily force someone to pay higher wages just because., that doesn't happen. And some business owners went out of business because they couldn't compete in that market. Happens every day, and that's the way it is supposed to work.
So you're OK with prices rising and/or companies going out of business and laying off workers because of government action that'll cost taxpayers billions (deporting all illegal immigrants, increasing enforcement and possibly building a massive wall), but you're not OK with prices rising and/or companies going out of business and laying off workers because of government action that'll cost taxpayers nothing (increasing the minimum wage)?
p.s. Wouldn't immigration policy be government impeding market forces?
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How many people are actually making the Federal minimum wage?
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf (http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf)
You posted the answer to your question.
330,000 people. In my opinion, not an insignificant number.
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What's the rule of thumb on tipping hotel maids when you leave the room after your stay?
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You posted the answer to your question.
330,000 people. In my opinion, not an insignificant number.
That's why I posted it. 330,000 out of a working population of something north of 20 million or less than 2%.
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What's the rule of thumb on tipping hotel maids when you leave the room after your stay?
A few years ago, I started leaving a buck or two a night.
Think about how stupid it is that we tip a doorman or even a guy who carries a couple bags for us, but the poor woman who cleans our toilet and shower and who makes our bed usually gets nothing. And she's paid like dirt, too.
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What's the rule of thumb on tipping hotel maids when you leave the room after your stay?
I tip $10/night
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I tip $10/night
Wow. I am a cheap ass!
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It is easy. Do it that way. Higher food prices, etc. People will pay if the price is right. Free market, as I see said here a lot.
You do realize there are people that eat at these places because it is what they can afford.
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Higher prices + no (or less) tipping = its a wash for the customer.
Tips are optional, so is the range of the tips. So not really a wash.
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All you folks with your moral imperatives and common decency ... please!
If we increase wages for these people, how the heck will CEOs get by on $6.4 million per year instead of $16.4 million?
Think of those severely put-upon, middle-aged, white, 0.1-percenters for a change, won't ya?
Average CEOs in this country make a few hundred thousand dollars. They assume great risk, run their small businesses, etc, are often taxed at their individual rate, etc, etc. Many people that make minimum wage decided they wouldn't try in school, didn't get a rip, didn't want to be bothered with it, didn't try, etc, etc. Yes, and there are some that are legitimately poor.
I hope you see what I did there.
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I tip $10/night
Same
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A few years ago, I started leaving a buck or two a night.
Think about how stupid it is that we tip a doorman or even a guy who carries a couple bags for us, but the poor woman who cleans our toilet and shower and who makes our bed usually gets nothing. And she's paid like dirt, too.
You're right, and I need to do better in this regard. I don't always leave tips for the housekeeper...I just forget, and I generally don't carry cash...like ever. It is much easier to tip at a restaurant or bar where I can simply add it to my credit card payment. It would be nice if hotels offered this option at checkout for the housekeeping staff...although again, I'd rather the hotel just pay them living wages, and increase my rate if they had to.
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What's the rule of thumb on tipping hotel maids when you leave the room after your stay?
Depends where I'm staying and for how long.
One night stay, screw 'em.
Week long stay on bidness, a couple/few bucks a night.
One hour stay and I leave a mess, a few bucks.