MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on March 25, 2024, 10:51:52 AM
-
Goose and I started a conversation in the SoG thread but I really think it deserves its own thread, so here we go.
I'll start with Goose's comment in that thread:
If TK and the team accomplishes their goal, 11 will be in the rafters of the FF. I stand by assessment that he is the second best player post AL, only behind DWade. Other guys may have better post MU careers, but none have played better at MU aside from DWade, imo.
Goose and I have had quite a few conversations about this over the last couple of years, and I've repeatedly said that to truly be "great," in my eyes, a player has to deliver in the NCAA tournament. Some might say that's not fair - for example, it "eliminates" the likes of Markus Howard, Wes Matthews, etc - but that's just how I feel.
So I was withholding my judgment on Kolek to: "He's been great for the program, no question, but ... "
Well, on top of all the incredible, important things he's done for the program overall, Tyler now has delivered with two outstanding performances to carry us to the Sweet 16.
He did so after returning from an injury that was serious enough to keep him out of the Big East tournament. He did so despite getting relatively little help from his running mate, Oso. He did so without getting anything in the second half yesterday from Kam, who committed 4 dopey fouls to take himself out of the game. He did so by taking over a game we absolutely needed him to take over.
Add that to his remarkable run in the conference season last year, and in the 2023 Big East Tournament, and all this season.
Tyler arrived at Marquette a time that the program desperately needed a leader like him. He struggled some his first season, but he worked incredibly hard during the following offseason to turn himself into one of the very best players in the country.
He has unique court vision, passing ability and unselfishness. My main criticism of him is that sometimes he's too freakin' unselfish. Add in his swagger, and it's the complete package.
I'll agree with Goose about Kolek's importance to the program. To that end, I give a ton of credit to Shaka Smart. Kolek wasn't even the point guard at George Mason, yet Shaka saw in Tyler a kid who could be a great PG for Marquette. And of course Shaka and his assistants deserve credit for their role in Tyler's development into a two-time All-American.
Kolek already has had a better career than a couple players whose numbers hang in the rafters, so I hope he gets consideration for that even in the very unlikely event that we don't win any more games this season. But yes, obviously I agree with Goose that if we get to the Final Four and beyond, it should be a no-brainer to put #11 up there.
It's been so much fun watching Tyler Kolek play for Marquette. We've been so fortunate, as fans, to get to see him - and Oso - become what they've become and to bring our proud program back to life.
-
Nice summary. He's an all-timer. He'd have the program assist record if he had played 4 years here.
It's hard to imagine our offense without him (and Oso) so really excited to see what they have in store for us this weekend. Feeling confident we'll be playing on Easter for a chance to go to the Final Four.
-
Let's pump the brakes a little... Tyler Kolek's legacy at MU is still being written.
-
His legacy is that he will do whatever it takes to win.
Agree he is best MU player since Wade. I also think Kam Jones is underappreciated given the love to Oso and Kolek.
-
Goose and I started a conversation in the SoG thread but I really think it deserves its own thread, so here we go.
I'll start with Goose's comment in that thread:
Goose and I have had quite a few conversations about this over the last couple of years, and I've repeatedly said that to truly be "great," in my eyes, a player has to deliver in the NCAA tournament. Some might say that's not fair - for example, it "eliminates" the likes of Markus Howard, Wes Matthews, etc - but that's just how I feel.
So I was withholding my judgment on Kolek to: "He's been great for the program, no question, but ... "
Well, on top of all the incredible, important things he's done for the program overall, Tyler now has delivered with two outstanding performances to carry us to the Sweet 16.
He did so after returning from an injury that was serious enough to keep him out of the Big East tournament. He did so despite getting relatively little help from his running mate, Oso. He did so without getting anything in the second half yesterday from Kam, who committed 4 dopey fouls to take himself out of the game. He did so by taking over a game we absolutely needed him to take over.
Add that to his remarkable run in the conference season last year, and in the 2023 Big East Tournament, and all this season.
Tyler arrived at Marquette a time that the program desperately needed a leader like him. He struggled some his first season, but he worked incredibly hard during the following offseason to turn himself into one of the very best players in the country.
He has unique court vision, passing ability and unselfishness. My main criticism of him is that sometimes he's too freakin' unselfish. Add in his swagger, and it's the complete package.
I'll agree with Goose about Kolek's importance to the program. To that end, I give a ton of credit to Shaka Smart. Kolek wasn't even the point guard at George Mason, yet Shaka saw in Tyler a kid who could be a great PG for Marquette. And of course Shaka and his assistants deserve credit for their role in Tyler's development into a two-time All-American.
Kolek already has had a better career than a couple players whose numbers hang in the rafters, so I hope he gets consideration for that even in the very unlikely event that we don't win any more games this season. But yes, obviously I agree with Goose that if we get to the Final Four and beyond, it should be a no-brainer to put #11 up there.
It's been so much fun watching Tyler Kolek play for Marquette. We've been so fortunate, as fans, to get to see him - and Oso - become what they've become and to bring our proud program back to life.
Great post 82. And to think at one point in Year 1 at MU during his struggles, Shaka related a story of finding him crying on the floor in the locker room or somewhere - some of which was the byproduct of criticism from our fanbase saying he wasn't High Major caliber. Wish I could find that link to that story or video.
This is a really special team. The confluence of the talents of Tyler, Stevie, Kam and Oso and how complementary each are to each other - simply amazing. Kam stepped up big time in Tyler's absence and has been arguable the best player in all of D-1 since February 1. Stevie just makes winning play after winning play. And Oso has been such a swiss army knife of talents.
Truly hope this group of kids reaches their ultimate goal of a Natty. A fine group of young men, who have worked incredibly hard, and repped MU with great class.
-
Let's not forget he's a two-time All American.
Rafter him!
-
Retire 11! (Again)
-
Let's not forget he's a two-time All American.
Rafter him!
So was Markus - and Markus was consensus first team. I say that not because I think Markus was "better." I think Kolek is better. But what if they lose this weekend? Is that really "rafter worthy?"
But is he like George Thompson? Thompson was never an All American and never got to the Final Four, but he was symbolic of the beginning of the Al-era. If Shaka is here awhile, and meets with continued success, does his number get retired because he was the start of this new era?
That being said, this is why programs should sit back and wait before making these decisions.
And yeah he has a better case than Doc Rivers no doubt. But you could say that about a number of players.
-
I think he needs one more to be in the discussion. As it stands Crowder was also BE POY, All American and in the sweet 16. Yes Tyler has the winning the BE success from last year crowder didn't but Jae had two years of March success Tyler doesn't. If Tyler gets to E8 I'll start hopping on the retire his number bandwagon. Anything past that is just solidifying it.
-
But what if they lose this weekend? Is that really "rafter worthy?"
Two-time Consensus All-American
Big East Player of the Year
Big East Regular Season Champion
Big East Tournament Champion
Big East Tournament MVP
NCAA Sweet Sixteen (hopefully more)
NCAA appearance every year
Second all-time in assists (possibly only because he didn't play four years here)
Anyone who can top that resume has their number retired.
-
Not to in any way take away from Chase Ross, as he was so huge for MU yesterday, but that play where he split the CO defenders and knifed through for the dunk was all set up by Kolek’s deception. I just saw the highlight and Tyler was so deliberate bringing the ball up. Had he turned up his speed and intent just a bit, the defense would’ve been put on alert for a potential fast break. His stealthy nonchalance lulled the Buffalo defenders into thinking Marquette was getting into a set. Chase took the cue and attacked.
And of course, Mr Ross is one of the few players in the NCAA capable of splitting that seam in an instant and dunking. Beautiful to watch! Bravo Tyler and Chase!
-
**Tyler is a one-time consensus second team. 2023 he was a mix of second and third team. (Markus was one of only five MU consensus first team All Americans, and the only one with Wade from the non-Al years.)
**And yes, like Jae and Markus, was BEPOY.
**Is a BE title and a S16 enough of a team accomplishment to make up for that? I don't know. Final Four or better? Most definitely.
Not saying no, but I think waiting out to see how his legacy develops is the better step.
-
TK's legacy is still being built upon and I hope he adds some additional chapters to his story at MU. That said, I do not think MU has had a player aside from Wade that has changed the narrative of MU basketball more than Kolek since the Al era. I would retire his jersey simply for delivering on the fxxk 'em line, but that is only part of his story.
I think there are too many numbers in the rafters, but TK and the guys make a deep run, I 100% believe 11 belongs hanging in the FF. His legacy as an all time MU great is cast in stone already for me, and I hope he and the team take away any doubt that he is an all great MU player over the next two weeks.
-
Never beat the Badgers.
-
Math for me is simple. Take us to the Final Four = retired jersey.
Less than that puts him with Jae Crowder/Markus Howard ... and there's no shame in that! In fact, maybe MU should have a Circle of Honor in the Al for folks just below the retired jersey level.
-
If he....
- takes MU to the Natty averaging a double double in the tournament... hell yess
- Loses Natty averaging double double... yes
- final four averaging double double... probably yes
- anything less... time will judge
he doesn't deserve to end his career at MU on a loss, that's for sure.
I also think that 4 or 5 years from now there will be about 22 NBA teams really kicking themselves for not picking him, and one GM very happy that he did. He's better than a few NBA starting point guards today.
-
I am of the opinion
“ You Ain’t Seen Nothin Yet”
-
If he....
- takes MU to the Natty averaging a double double in the tournament... hell yess
- Loses Natty averaging double double... yes
- final four averaging double double... probably yes
- anything less... time will judge
he doesn't deserve to end his career at MU on a loss, that's for sure.
I also think that 4 or 5 years from now there will be about 22 NBA teams really kicking themselves for not picking him, and one GM very happy that he did. He's better than a few NBA starting point guards today.
Agree on all counts. Well stated.
-
Retire 11 right after we retire 0
-
Retire 11 right after we retire 0
Yep, they'll both get up there, no huge rush though.
-
Retire 11 right after we retire 0
While I'm in the Markus and Tyler retirement camp, Jim Chones would be first on my list.
-
While I'm in the Markus and Tyler retirement camp, Jim Chones would be first on my list.
I don't disagree, I just don't see it happening after 50 years
-
I think post season success needs to be a part of the equation at a school like Marquette, with high standards for what it means to be “great”. Tyler has hit all the other marks needed so far and he is on his way to the finish line. I do not doubt he will get it done. I said it before the NCAA tournament if Kolek leads this team to the final four his banner will be waiting.
-
Retire jerseys, not numbers. Howard and Kolek both deserve it.
-
Retire jerseys, not numbers.
This.
-
Retire 11 right after we retire 0
Teal?
-
I would die for Tyler
-
Teal?
No. He's right.
-
TyKo has been an extremely fun player to watch these last three years. His Excellent unselfish play, winning focused attitude and dedication to his teammates success on the court have been phenomenal . The results for the MU program because of these efforts have been superb.
As far as his legacy goes, I would put him somewhere in the grouping of Lloyd Walton/ Travis Diener as far as MU point guards go, with a nod to Dean Meminger as Number 1 ( Butch Lee for these purposes defined as Shooting Guard).
All Time TyKo probably in top 20 at MU at this point. That is a very high ranking considering how many excellent players have appeared in an MU uniform. A deeper run this year could place him higher.
-
Retire 11 right after we retire 0
Retire 11 after Tyler takes us to the moon over the next two weeks.
-
No. He's right.
Want to retire the jersey of a player who never won an NCAA tournament game, never was voted Big East POY, never won a Big East Championship, BEFORE a guy who has done all of the above and advanced us to our first Sweet 16 in 10 years? Nah.
Markus was a prolific scorer, good student and great representative while at MU. His leadership left a lot to be desired - was a me first player and teammate, despite what his most die hard fans want to believe.
-
Herman
Post Al era, who do you have ahead of TK in the top twenty list of all time greats? IMO, there are a good number of players in the AL era that are better than TK, but nowhere near twenty.
-
Want to retire the jersey of a player who never won an NCAA tournament game, never was voted Big East POY, never won a Big East Championship, BEFORE a guy who has done all of the above and advanced us to our first Sweet 16 in 10 years? Nah.
Markus was a prolific scorer, good student and great representative while at MU. His leadership left a lot to be desired - was a me first player and teammate, despite what his most die hard fans want to believe.
Your point stands completely and I agree with it, but Markus was BE POY in 2019-20 season.
-
::)
Tyler's legacy is not yet complete. I have been on the TKo train since the Illinois game during his first season at MU. (Brunson!) I argued passionately with silverwarrior on the other board who wanted to move Tyler off the ball or to the bench and hand Sean the keys. I admired his statement in NY prior to his second season at MU. And then he backed it up. I chuckled at barbecue chicken and repeated it on Sunday about Lampkins. He has had bad games and slumps. He is human. I will always appreciate the passion, the fight, the attitude he brought. Retire his jersey. Not his number.
-
Your point stands completely and I agree with it, but Markus was BE POY in 2019-20 season.
He's never been one to let facts get in the way of his opinions. Both deserve to be retired IMO, and you don't need to try to diminish the accomplishments of one in order to prop up the other. Both outstanding players.
-
I agree. I am a big fan of both.
-
Want to retire the jersey of a player who never won an NCAA tournament game, never was voted Big East POY, never won a Big East Championship, BEFORE a guy who has done all of the above and advanced us to our first Sweet 16 in 10 years? Nah.
Markus was a prolific scorer, good student and great representative while at MU. His leadership left a lot to be desired - was a me first player and teammate, despite what his most die hard fans want to believe.
I generally agree with you but Markus was not only BEPOY, but he was a first team consensus AA. The first since Wade.
And you can stop with the hyperbole in the second paragraph. There is no indication anywhere that he was a "me first" player.
-
Want to retire the jersey of a player who never won an NCAA tournament game, never was voted Big East POY, never won a Big East Championship, BEFORE a guy who has done all of the above and advanced us to our first Sweet 16 in 10 years? Nah.
Markus was a prolific scorer, good student and great representative while at MU. His leadership left a lot to be desired - was a me first player and teammate, despite what his most die hard fans want to believe.
Tyler deserves it more than Markus. But Markus has a few years on Tyler so I think he would be retired one year and TKo in the following years.
Markus actually was BE POY his junior season. He was also a two time All American ( including first team All American). He doesnt have the team success but he makes up for it by being not only the programs all time leading scorer but also the Big Easts. That profile gets your number retired IMHO.
-
Want to retire the jersey of a player who never won an NCAA tournament game, never was voted Big East POY, never won a Big East Championship, BEFORE a guy who has done all of the above and advanced us to our first Sweet 16 in 10 years? Nah.
Markus was a prolific scorer, good student and great representative while at MU. His leadership left a lot to be desired - was a me first player and teammate, despite what his most die hard fans want to believe.
Yes. I do want to retire the jersey of a player who was a first team All-American, 2020 NCAA scoring champ, won the Senior CLASS award, was one of the best human beings to put on the Blue and Gold, and who routinely put a poorly coached team on his back and won a ton of games... and who was robbed of his Senior finale due to Covid. He is the all time scoring leader in Marquette history BY 776 POINTS. Kam Jones would have to double all of the points he has every scored and even then he wouldn't catch Markus. Markus is one of three players in the history of the NCAA to drop three 50 point games in a season. The numbers that Markus put up were eye watering, and should be appreciated.
I get it. You don't like Wojo. Not many do, I was very happy to see him go. But that isn't a prerequisite for acknowledging that Markus Howard was an enormous talent and a huge part of Marquette's history. His accomplishments should be acknowledged, and it should be done ASAP.
Tyler is still playing. It's been four years since Markus picked up a ball with Marquette on his jersey. Get it up there.
-
Markus was also instrumental in getting Oso to MU so he showed his chops on the recruiting trail as well.
-
Yes. I do want to retire the jersey of a player who was a first team All-American, 2020 NCAA scoring champ, won the Senior CLASS award, was one of the best human beings to put on the Blue and Gold, and who routinely put a poorly coached team on his back and won a ton of games... and who was robbed of his Senior finale due to Covid. He is the all time scoring leader in Marquette history BY 776 POINTS. Kam Jones would have to double all of the points he has every scored and even then he wouldn't catch Markus. Markus is one of three players in the history of the NCAA to drop three 50 point games in a season. The numbers that Markus put up were eye watering, and should be appreciated.
I get it. You don't like Wojo. Not many do, I was very happy to see him go. But that isn't a prerequisite for acknowledging that Markus Howard was an enormous talent and a huge part of Marquette's history. His accomplishments should be acknowledged, and it should be done ASAP.
Tyler is still playing. It's been four years since Markus picked up a ball with Marquette on his jersey. Get it up there.
Amen, brother!
-
Agree with all the Kolek sentiment…definitely an all timer. I feel the same way about Diener, by the way.
-
I do agree that MH should have his number retired (Jersey for those so inclined, but think all retired numbers should be changed to jerseys as well. To me it’s the stature we are talking about and not tiers of stature. Either way it should be extremely rigorous criteria). Markus was the best scorer in MU history and with his Brig East and All-American accolades deserves retirement. The scoring was so ridiculous I think it has to be recognized in this fashion. I don’t think bad coaching should be held against him.
But Kolek seems to be a program changer at a time when MU needed it badly (a slight indictment on Howard perhaps). His accolades, performance and yet to be tournament success should be recognized even before MH if he takes MU to a final four.
-
He's never been one to let facts get in the way of his opinions. Both deserve to be retired IMO, and you don't need to try to diminish the accomplishments of one in order to prop up the other. Both outstanding players.
I forgot Markus was Big East POY. I'm not knocking Markus down to prop up Tyler. Tyler needs no "propping up." His merits stand on their own, regardless of Markus Howard's accomplishments. As I said, Markus was a prolific scorer, good student, and great representative of MU. I don't necessarily feel the being a prolific scorer, and all-time program leading scorer, while not winning any NCAA games in 4 years qualifies one for jersey retirement.
Yes, it is true Markus played for a poor coach. Yet Markus 100% chose to hoist up contested, early shot clock shots, which frustrated his other talented teammates (some more than others), and led to transfers. Thus my opinion that he was a me first player versus a team player.
-
Both, and.
-
When I started this thread, I wasn't expecting it to become a Markus (and Wojo) discussion, but I guess I shoulda known better cuz I ain't new here.
I also wasn't aware at the time that Ben Steele had written an article about Kolek's legacy:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/marquette/2024/03/24/tyler-kolek-and-shaka-smart-lead-marquette-to-sweet-16-of-ncaa-tournament-by-beating-colorado/73084748007/?utm_source=jsonline-dailybriefing-strada&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailybriefing-greeting&utm_term=hero&utm_content=pmjs-milwaukee-nletter65
I won't cut-and-paste the article because I want to honor the paywall, but here's the quote from Kolek:
"It's not something I really reflect on because I'm still in the moment. We're still winning games. We got more to come. My legacy isn't a closed book. It's not already finished. Just trying to continue to do things that this program hasn't done in a long time is our goal."
-
Few questions:
What is the criteria for retiring a player’s number?
Is it only on court accomplishments while at MU? For example, if Kolek becomes an NBA all-star does that have any impact on retiring his MU jersey? I don’t think Wade’s legacy at MU finished with the Kansas loss.
Lastly, who decides if a player’s number gets retired?
-
Few questions:
What is the criteria for retiring a player’s number?
Is it only on court accomplishments while at MU? For example, if Kolek becomes an NBA all-star does that have any impact on retiring his MU jersey? I don’t think Wade’s legacy at MU finished with the Kansas loss.
Lastly, who decides if a player’s number gets retired?
If they weren’t part of a natty, take their numbers down. End of story
-
Doc Rivers decides.
-
Can't retire the number of a player who got through Marquette without learning to read.
-
I'll break my answer down this way:
1) If we win a Natty or make the National Championship game:
TyKo and Oso go in the rafters by April 15th. Cam goes in when his career at Marquette ends.
2) Anything else:
TyKo still belongs among the greatest ever at Marquette. He needs a place with DWade, Butch, Bo and Maurice. Goose is right -- TyKo has been transformative and his "F*** 'em reflected the attitude of our school and team.
I might let the dust settle and have Tyler back when his NBA team is playing in Milwaukee.
Oso is a tougher call. His legacy is good but I don't think he is one of the best ever to play here. I put him in the rafters largely if we win a Natty, as he would be instrumental in our next four games.
The question comes back to how does TyKo compare to those who are and aren't up there. I might argue that Jae or Wes belongs up there and, perhaps DJO. But not Markus Howard. I know he was a prolific scorer. But we're not LSU.
-
Can't retire the number of a player who got through Marquette without learning to read.
I'm still waiting for Tyler to acknowledge and lean into the joke in a post game interview or presser.
-
I'll break my answer down this way:
1) If we win a Natty or make the National Championship game:
TyKo and Oso go in the rafters by April 15th. Cam goes in when his career at Marquette ends.
2) Anything else:
TyKo still belongs among the greatest ever at Marquette. He needs a place with DWade, Butch, Bo and Maurice. Goose is right -- TyKo has been transformative and his "F*** 'em reflected the attitude of our school and team.
I might let the dust settle and have Tyler back when his NBA team is playing in Milwaukee.
Oso is a tougher call. His legacy is good but I don't think he is one of the best ever to play here. I put him in the rafters largely if we win a Natty, as he would be instrumental in our next four games.
The question comes back to how does TyKo compare to those who are and aren't up there. I might argue that Jae or Wes belongs up there and, perhaps DJO. But not Markus Howard. I know he was a prolific scorer. But we're not LSU.
You haven't thought about this much so I'm just going to let the other folks here drag you.
-
I'll break my answer down this way:
1) If we win a Natty or make the National Championship game:
TyKo and Oso go in the rafters by April 15th. Cam goes in when his career at Marquette ends.
2) Anything else:
TyKo still belongs among the greatest ever at Marquette. He needs a place with DWade, Butch, Bo and Maurice. Goose is right -- TyKo has been transformative and his "F*** 'em reflected the attitude of our school and team.
I might let the dust settle and have Tyler back when his NBA team is playing in Milwaukee.
Oso is a tougher call. His legacy is good but I don't think he is one of the best ever to play here. I put him in the rafters largely if we win a Natty, as he would be instrumental in our next four games.
The question comes back to how does TyKo compare to those who are and aren't up there. I might argue that Jae or Wes belongs up there and, perhaps DJO. But not Markus Howard. I know he was a prolific scorer. But we're not LSU.
You're better than your absolutely inane last sentence, dg.
Otherwise I'll leave this alone and, as Hards said, let others have at it if they want.
-
The question comes back to how does TyKo compare to those who are and aren't up there. I might argue that Jae or Wes belongs up there and, perhaps DJO. But not Markus Howard. I know he was a prolific scorer. But we're not LSU.
Sometimes this place makes me just shake my head in disbelief.
-
I would argue, but it turns out I am a big meanie head.
-
If you retire Markus’ jersey based on being the career scoring leader, you have to consider that Jerel McNeal had the record for a decade before Markus. He was more accomplished at MU than Wes. Wes obviously had a long NBA career to set himself apart after leaving MU.
-
I draw the line at retiring Cam Marrota’s jersey
-
If you retire Markus’ jersey based on being the career scoring leader, you have to consider that Jerel McNeal had the record for a decade before Markus. He was more accomplished at MU than Wes. Wes obviously had a long NBA career to set himself apart after leaving MU.
While I agree it's important to not that Markus' numbers are the real all time scoring record. If you switch his 3s to 2s and take his sophomore to senior numbers he beats Thompson by no small number. The same was not true about McNeal.
I personally think being a key contributor to a Final Four should be the minimum. And that means taking down some historic favorites that were truly incredible but at least it creates a specific cut line.
-
I draw the line at retiring Cam Marrota’s jersey
Frozena goes first
-
If you retire Markus’ jersey based on being the career scoring leader, you have to consider that Jerel McNeal had the record for a decade before Markus. He was more accomplished at MU than Wes. Wes obviously had a long NBA career to set himself apart after leaving MU.
Markus not only holds it, he destroyed it. Before Markus there was still the argument of three year players that didn't get the benefit of playing as Freshman vs the likes of Jerel. Before Markus, there was still the argument of what if there was a three point line when some of the older players were active. Markus sits alone on top of all of those charts by a considerable margin.
NBA career (or lack thereof) should have no impact on retiring a collegiate jersey/number IMO.
-
If you retire Markus’ jersey based on being the career scoring leader, you have to consider that Jerel McNeal had the record for a decade before Markus. He was more accomplished at MU than Wes. Wes obviously had a long NBA career to set himself apart after leaving MU.
But it wouldn't be just that, obviously.
-
If you retire Markus’ jersey based on being the career scoring leader, you have to consider that Jerel McNeal had the record for a decade before Markus. He was more accomplished at MU than Wes. Wes obviously had a long NBA career to set himself apart after leaving MU.
Being MUs scoring leader is only a part of three puzzle.
Being the Big Easts scoring leader is the much bigger deal.
I love Rel, but his scoring record and the Big East scoring record are not the same
-
Being MUs scoring leader is only a part of three puzzle.
Being the Big Easts scoring leader is the much bigger deal.
I love Rel, but his scoring record and the Big East scoring record are not the same
Markus also Big East POY (should have been twice), first team All-American and led the nation in scoring.
Jerel was fantastic, but Markus was more accomplished.
-
Marquette has too many retired numbers as-is. Thank god they let Kolek wear 11, instead of telling him no because they "retired" it for the Apollo 11 moon landings. Like seriously, what the hell.
-
Marquette has too many retired numbers as-is. Thank god they let Kolek wear 11, instead of telling him no because they "retired" it for the Apollo 11 moon landings. Like seriously, what the hell.
It was a silly stunt Al did for publicity that looks strange 50+ years later. It should have been quietly "unretired" a few years earlier.
-
Doc Rivers decides.
Doc was completely a Crean decision, probably because he was recruiting his kids.
-
I think we should just do a Ring of Honor instead of jerseys numbers being retired.
-
I think we should just do a Ring of Honor instead of jerseys numbers being retired.
Well, that's kinda what it has become.
-
Well, that's kinda what it has become.
Is it? Weve only retired 2 jerseys of guys who played after the 1970s. One of whom is the greatest player to ever don the blue and gold. I think if it had become a ring of honor we would of seen a few more names added by now.
-
Those closely connected to Marquette basketball these last couple/few years - from coaches to teammates to administrators and, yes, to fans - will always fondly remember all the great things Tyler Kolek did for the team and the program.
That will be the case whether or not his jersey/number is "retired." And that's his true legacy IMHO.
-
I think we should just do a Ring of Honor instead of jerseys numbers being retired.
I'm not sure the Bucks would go along with that.
They could do it in The Al, but obviously not nearly as many people would notice.
-
The fact that only two players have numbers retired is telling and I 100% appreciate the meaning behind that honor. Only Wade is deserving post Al and I firmly believe TK is deserving.
My belief is truly not biased and I believe it based off of watching 50+ years of basketball. His overall impact and greatness is second only to Wade, imo. I have zero problem with others not agreeing, but I believe we have seen greatness from TK.
There is a nice number of players that I appreciated over the past 45 years, but only Wade and TK check the boxes for this fan. Truth be told, I hope he gets to put a net around his neck more than anything else.
-
Rather than a number or jersey, I'd like to see an actual Marquette Hall of Fame museum in the new basketball facility. Not just displays like in The Al that everyone walks by with little notice. An interactive museum with busts (not the Scoop type). Championship banners should be hung in Fiserv and player accomplishments should be close to the students from which they came.
-
Herman
Post Al era, who do you have ahead of TK in the top twenty list of all time greats? IMO, there are a good number of players in the AL era that are better than TK, but nowhere near twenty.
Goose:
In post Al era the only one clearly above Tyko is :
D Wade
There is a long list of post Al he is somewhere among though (listed chronologically)
Oliver Lee
Micheal Wilson
Sam Worthen
Doc Rivers
Tony Smith
Damon Key
Jim McAlvaine
Tony Miller
Aaron Hutchins
Brian Wardle
Travis Diener
Steve Novack
Dominc James
Jerel McNeal
Wes Matthews
Lazar Haywood
Jimmy Butler
Jae Crowder
Darius Johnson-Odom
Vander Blue
Markus Howard
Sam Hauser
-
Rather than a number or jersey, I'd like to see an actual Marquette Hall of Fame museum in the new basketball facility. Not just displays like in The Al that everyone walks by with little notice. An interactive museum with busts (not the Scoop type). Championship banners should be hung in Fiserv and player accomplishments should be close to the students from which they came.
Great idea Dr.! If done well it would is great touch and a recruiting tool.
-
Goose:
In post Al era the only one clearly above Tyko is :
D Wade
There is a long list of post Al he is somewhere among though (listed chronologically)
Oliver Lee
Micheal Wilson
Sam Worthen
Doc Rivers
Tony Smith
Damon Key
Jim McAlvaine
Tony Miller
Aaron Hutchins
Brian Wardle
Travis Diener
Steve Novack
Dominc James
Jerel McNeal
Wes Matthews
Lazar Haywood
Jimmy Butler
Jae Crowder
Darius Johnson-Odom
Vander Blue
Markus Howard
Sam Hauser
Herm,
Really?
Please take Sam off the list. He submarined his chance at that honor by leaving and taking a dump on what could have been a final four caliber team.
-
He's just trolling. Its best not to take anything he says seriously.
-
He's just trolling. Its best not to take anything he says seriously.
This is true. Sorry for that. Carry on with the discussion.
-
I agree with every name on Herman’s list including Sam. He was an outstanding player at MU and his departure does not diminish his skill set. No problem with any one not liking him, but he was a very good player during his time at MU.
I also agree there is one player clearly ahead of TK and that is easiest debate in MU history. A lot of very good players on that list and I could add several more, but none match TK, imo.
-
I rank TK somewhere between Dwyane Wade and Kevin Menard.
-
I agree with every name on Herman’s list including Sam. He was an outstanding player at MU and his departure does not diminish his skill set. No problem with any one not liking him, but he was a very good player during his time at MU.
I also agree there is one player clearly ahead of TK and that is easiest debate in MU history. A lot of very good players on that list and I could several more, but none match TK, imo.
Kolek isn't "somewhere among" (9-9-9's term) any of the players on that list and you know it. He ranks ahead of each of them - not only by skill but especially by what you would call the "mark on the program" factor. With many of them, it's not even close.
-
82
TK is better than all of them and I said that. Some very accomplished players, but TK is better than all of them and most by a wide margin. That list made me realize why one two players have had jersey retired in 45 years.
After seeing that list in print I have a better understanding of why there is the COLE faction on scoop.
-
Kolek isn't "somewhere among" (9-9-9's term) any of the players on that list and you know it. He ranks ahead of each of them - not only by skill but especially by what you would call the "mark on the program" factor. With many of them, it's not even close.
Kolek is a clear 2 behind Wade. If they make the Final 4, there is no debate.
I appreciate a lot of guys on Herm’s list and they all hold a place in Marquette history but none of them match what Kolek has done as a player, combining individual and team accomplishment.
-
Few questions:
What is the criteria for retiring a player’s number?
Is it only on court accomplishments while at MU? For example, if Kolek becomes an NBA all-star does that have any impact on retiring his MU jersey? I don’t think Wade’s legacy at MU finished with the Kansas loss.
I think these are good questions.
For me the number one criteria is national honors. Were they an All-American? 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team? Was it consensus? Did they win an award like the Bob Cousy or Senior Class Award? Do they hold any D1 records?
I would say the next level of importance is Conference POY/record holder and team success. Were they conference player of the year? Do they hold a conference record of some sort? Did they lead their team conference championships and/or deep runs in March?
I think you need to hit these levels and everything else is just gravy. I think pro success matters but only a little. For example, JFB is probably the second best pro to come out of Marquette. I don't see his number ever getting retired because he didn't earn any national or even conference honors and his Sweet 16 run wasn't enough to counteract that.
-
82
TK is better than all of them and I said that. Some very accomplished players, but TK is better than all of them and most by a wide margin. That list made me realize why one two players have had jersey retired in 45 years.
After seeing that list in print I have a better understanding of why there is the COLE faction on scoop.
It was 9-9-9's use of "somewhere among" that raised my eyebrows.
Kolek is as "somewhere among" a list of players that includes Oliver Lee, Michael Wilson, Sam Hauser, Brian Wardle and Vander Blue" as Larry Bird is "somewhere among" a list of former NBA players that includes Hersey Hawkins, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Hornacek, Gus Williams and Trevor Ariza.
It doesn't mean those 5 former pros I named weren't accomplished, but I think you'd agree it's silly to rank Bird "among" them.
-
Kolek is a clear 2 behind Wade. If they make the Final 4, there is no debate.
100% agree.
What happens if we win it all? Two time AA, Big East POY, MVP (is there that kind of award?) of the tournament. Does that move TKo to #1? Sounds almost sacrilegious, never thought I would even entertain such a thought. DWade was head and shoulders above the rest. But if we’re just talking college, and we win it all….
-
100% agree.
What happens if we win it all? Two time AA, Big East POY, MVP (is there that kind of award?) of the tournament. Does that move TKo to #1? Sounds almost sacrilegious, never thought I would even entertain such a thought. DWade was head and shoulders above the rest. But if we’re just talking college, and we win it all….
If we won it all, TKo would have the best Marquette career of any player post Al.
Wade would still be the best player to ever wear the blue and gold
-
I sure hope we get to have the TK vs DW debate after winning it all!
-
Lenny
If MU wins it all, TK will have had the best MU career since Butch Lee. I would say Bo had the greatest career ever at MU, followed by Butch. TK is still behind those two, but the best career in 45 years.
It is funny, but as the greatest player, I do not think I will live long enough to see a better player than Wade. It took me watching Wade one time in person to realize his greatness.
Back to TK, my TK moment of knowing we were watching a special player was the game at X last season. From the moment he took over the first half of that game everything changed. He went from being a very good PG to the best PG on college basketball and has not looked back.
-
Frozena goes first
First member in the auxiliary hall where the MU Walk-on HOF will be located. Right next to Marcus West.
-
Rather than a number or jersey, I'd like to see an actual Marquette Hall of Fame museum in the new basketball facility. Not just displays like in The Al that everyone walks by with little notice. An interactive museum with busts (not the Scoop type). Championship banners should be hung in Fiserv and player accomplishments should be close to the students from which they came.
Does anyone know when the new bball facility is supposed to open? Have they started on it?
-
Also, as far as retiring numbers/jerseys, I think an important factor is: are they engaged with the university post college/graduation? If a player never comes back to campus, doesn’t reach out to the current team, etc then I don’t think they should be recognized.
I’m not saying Markus is not a proud alum and maybe he’s completely supportive of the program but does anyone know if he’s been back to campus? I know he plays in Europe so it’s difficult but there’s an offseason. Maybe it’d be good for him to meet with Shaka and the team. Also, maybe he has. I don’t know
-
Also, as far as retiring numbers/jerseys, I think an important factor is: are they engaged with the university post college/graduation? If a player never comes back to campus, doesn’t reach out to the current team, etc then I don’t think they should be recognized.
I’m not saying Markus is not a proud alum and maybe he’s completely supportive of the program but does anyone know if he’s been back to campus? I know he plays in Europe so it’s difficult but there’s an offseason. Maybe it’d be good for him to meet with Shaka and the team. Also, maybe he has. I don’t know
That is pretty terrible criteria, and would be awfully petty.
-
It was 9-9-9's use of "somewhere among" that raised my eyebrows.
Kolek is as "somewhere among" a list of players that includes Oliver Lee, Michael Wilson, Sam Hauser, Brian Wardle and Vander Blue" as Larry Bird is "somewhere among" a list of former NBA players that includes Hersey Hawkins, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Hornacek, Gus Williams and Trevor Ariza.
It doesn't mean those 5 former pros I named weren't accomplished, but I think you'd agree it's silly to rank Bird "among" them.
100%.
-
Also, as far as retiring numbers/jerseys, I think an important factor is: are they engaged with the university post college/graduation? If a player never comes back to campus, doesn’t reach out to the current team, etc then I don’t think they should be recognized.
I’m not saying Markus is not a proud alum and maybe he’s completely supportive of the program but does anyone know if he’s been back to campus? I know he plays in Europe so it’s difficult but there’s an offseason. Maybe it’d be good for him to meet with Shaka and the team. Also, maybe he has. I don’t know
He was back at least once. I think he was still with the nuggets. Don't think he's been back since Spain
-
Getting back to Tyler Kolek ...
He played all 40 minutes Sunday and 78 minutes over the weekend. He moved freely, appeared able to attempt every pass and shot he wanted, chest-bumped his teammates, had enough energy down the stretch Sunday to take over a game that we desperately needed him to take over, etc. If I didn't know he was coming off an injury to his core that was serious enough to sideline him for 6 games, I never would have thought he was hurt at all.
It seems highly unlikely to me that he was way too injured to play at all March 16 but that he was able to be a full-contact practice participant March 18 and 100% good to play March 22, so I'm fully believing Shaka's statement that TK could have played the previous week had the national title been on the line.
But the national title wasn't on the line the previous week, and I applaud all the decision-makers - from the medical and training staffs, to Tyler and his family, to Shaka - for keeping their eyes on the real prize.
Winning the national title was the stated goal back in October ... and to have a chance to achieve it, we needed TK to be as healthy as possible for the NCAA tournament.
And now here Shaka, Kolek & Co. are, 1/3 of the way toward accomplishing that goal, already with Marquette's deepest run in the NCAAs in more than a decade.
As for "legacy," it's a tricky word, and different people define it different ways. In my eyes, at least, TK already has established his legacy at Marquette. Can he improve on it? Damn right he can ... so he might as well!
-
Getting back to Tyler Kolek ...
He played all 40 minutes Sunday and 78 minutes over the weekend. He moved freely, appeared able to attempt every pass and shot he wanted, chest-bumped his teammates, had enough energy down the stretch Sunday to take over a game that we desperately needed him to take over, etc. If I didn't know he was coming off an injury to his core that was serious enough to sideline him for 6 games, I never would have thought he was hurt at all.
It seems highly unlikely to me that he was way too injured to play at all March 16 but that he was able to be a full-contact practice participant March 18 and 100% good to play March 22, so I'm fully believing Shaka's statement that TK could have played the previous week had the national title been on the line.
But the national title wasn't on the line the previous week, and I applaud all the decision-makers - from the medical and training staffs, to Tyler and his family, to Shaka - for keeping their eyes on the real prize.
Winning the national title was the stated goal back in October ... and to have a chance to achieve it, we needed TK to be as healthy as possible for the NCAA tournament.
And now here Shaka, Kolek & Co. are, 1/3 of the way toward accomplishing that goal, already with Marquette's deepest run in the NCAAs in more than a decade.
As for "legacy," it's a tricky word, and different people define it different ways. In my eyes, at least, TK already has established his legacy at Marquette. Can he improve on it? Damn right he can ... so he might as well!
Yup. This weekend proved that the BET just wasn’t a priority(smartly)
He could have went if needed. But we were always getting a 2 seed. And the path we got, ended up quite ok.
-
Yup. This weekend proved that the BET just wasn’t a priority(smartly)
He could have went if needed. But we were always getting a 2 seed. And the path we got, ended up quite ok.
It’s obvious Tyler is soft, just like his generation
-
It’s obvious Tyler is soft, just like his generation
If only Shaka had listened to Dung Willie and played TKO 38 minutes/game in the BET.
-
Good post again 82! Agree.
-
If only Shaka had listened to Dung Willie and played TKO 38 minutes/game in the BET.
Those discussions look so funny in retrospect.
-
“Funny” is one word for ‘em!
-
Those discussions look so funny in retrospect.
Yep. I wanted him to play if he could. Certainly happy he didn’t now. If there was even 1% risk I’m glad he rested.
-
Could already have had a banner
-
Getting back to Tyler Kolek ...
He played all 40 minutes Sunday and 78 minutes over the weekend. He moved freely, appeared able to attempt every pass and shot he wanted, chest-bumped his teammates, had enough energy down the stretch Sunday to take over a game that we desperately needed him to take over, etc. If I didn't know he was coming off an injury to his core that was serious enough to sideline him for 6 games, I never would have thought he was hurt at all.
It seems highly unlikely to me that he was way too injured to play at all March 16 but that he was able to be a full-contact practice participant March 18 and 100% good to play March 22, so I'm fully believing Shaka's statement that TK could have played the previous week had the national title been on the line.
But the national title wasn't on the line the previous week, and I applaud all the decision-makers - from the medical and training staffs, to Tyler and his family, to Shaka - for keeping their eyes on the real prize.
Winning the national title was the stated goal back in October ... and to have a chance to achieve it, we needed TK to be as healthy as possible for the NCAA tournament.
And now here Shaka, Kolek & Co. are, 1/3 of the way toward accomplishing that goal, already with Marquette's deepest run in the NCAAs in more than a decade.
As for "legacy," it's a tricky word, and different people define it different ways. In my eyes, at least, TK already has established his legacy at Marquette. Can he improve on it? Damn right he can ... so he might as well!
Risk for reinjury was still significant during BET so he didn't play. That's all there is to it. If he was limited but no significant risk for reinjury he would have been out there.
-
If only Shaka had listened to Dung Willie and played TKO 38 minutes/game in the BET.
Show some respect, it is dung dr.!
-
Could already have had a banner
Psh we've made the S16 banner at the Al.
-
Risk for reinjury was still significant during BET so he didn't play. That's all there is to it. If he was limited but no significant risk for reinjury he would have been out there.
While deferring to your inside information, TAMU, I do admit I wonder why there wasn't significant risk for reinjury as a full participant in full-contact practice a day or 2 after the BET. Marquette's full-contact practices are not for the weak of heart - or torso.
-
While deferring to your inside information, TAMU, I do admit I wonder why there wasn't significant risk for reinjury as a full participant in full-contact practice a day or 2 after the BET. Marquette's full-contact practices are not for the weak of heart - or torso.
Who says there wasn't?
Everyone agrees that the NCAAT was infinitely more important than the BET. Everyone also agreed that if there was any significant risk of reinjury that Tyler should sit. Where there was disagreement was if there was no significant risk of reinjury Tyler should sit because the BET means nothing.
-
Who says there wasn't?
Everyone agrees that the NCAAT was infinitely more important than the BET. Everyone also agreed that if there was any significant risk of reinjury that Tyler should sit. Where there was disagreement was if there was no significant risk of reinjury Tyler should sit because the BET means nothing.
Understood.
Any way one looks at it, I am very happy TK sat out the BET - as doing so increased the odds of him being fit enough to play as he did in Indy. That was a pleasure to observe.
-
Few questions:
What is the criteria for retiring a player’s number?
Is it only on court accomplishments while at MU? For example, if Kolek becomes an NBA all-star does that have any impact on retiring his MU jersey? I don’t think Wade’s legacy at MU finished with the Kansas loss.
Lastly, who decides if a player’s number gets retired?
I think these are good questions.
For me the number one criteria is national honors. Were they an All-American? 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team? Was it consensus? Did they win an award like the Bob Cousy or Senior Class Award? Do they hold any D1 records?
I would say the next level of importance is Conference POY/record holder and team success. Were they conference player of the year? Do they hold a conference record of some sort? Did they lead their team conference championships and/or deep runs in March?
I think you need to hit these levels and everything else is just gravy. I think pro success matters but only a little. For example, JFB is probably the second best pro to come out of Marquette. I don't see his number ever getting retired because he didn't earn any national or even conference honors and his Sweet 16 run wasn't enough to counteract that.
Am I correct in recalling that one formal criterion was/is that the player has earned a degree from MU? Didn't that delay DWade's ceremony? Maybe even Doc's?
And since TyKo can't read, I suppose it will be tough to give him a degree.
He already deserves to have his jersey retired. The further we go in the tournament this year, the faster the jersey retirement should and will happen.
-
Who says there wasn't?
Everyone agrees that the NCAAT was infinitely more important than the BET. Everyone also agreed that if there was any significant risk of reinjury that Tyler should sit. Where there was disagreement was if there was no significant risk of reinjury Tyler should sit because the BET means nothing.
Yep. The MU 2 seed draw is looking pretty good vs. Creighton’s 3 seed now.
-
Understood.
Any way one looks at it, I am very happy TK sat out the BET - as doing so increased the odds of him being fit enough to play as he did in Indy. That was a pleasure to observe.
I'm very happy they listened to the medical staff about Tyler.
I'm also very happy they listened to the medical staff about Stevie, Kam, and Oso and let them play in the "meaningless" BET despite them nursing injuries as well.
-
I'm very happy they listened to the medical staff about Tyler.
I'm also very happy they listened to the medical staff about Stevie, Kam, and Oso and let them play in the "meaningless" BET despite them nursing injuries as well.
You're a smart guy, TAMU, so you know there are owwies (manageable pain), there are injuries and there are serious injuries. This time of year, every team has multiple guys playing through manageable pain/injuries of some kind. You also know that some games mean more than others. I have already acknowledged that the BET wasn't "meaningless," but I know that some Scoopers still maintain that it was.
Question, though:
So Shaka saying Kolek definitely would have played the week of the BET had it been the national title game was just either a tall tale or gamesmanship?
If it was either, I don't blame him, and I'm not calling him a liar. Coaches "stretch the truth" all the time when it suits the cause.
-
Guys, I now know why Tyler was able to do so well in Indy.
I didn’t play Pickleball for a full week until last night. My body got right, but I also took time to think about my game, watch video, get my MIND right.
Last night, I dominated. Has never played so well. Next level was reached. Same paddle. Same Pickleball shoes. NEW ME!
Tyler? Same thing. We are brothers in athletics.
-
You're a smart guy, TAMU, so you know there are owwies (manageable pain), there are injuries and there are serious injuries. This time of year, every team has multiple guys playing through manageable pain/injuries of some kind. You also know that some games mean more than others. I have already acknowledged that the BET wasn't "meaningless," but I know that some Scoopers still maintain that it was.
Question, though:
So Shaka saying Kolek definitely would have played the week of the BET had it been the national title game was just either a tall tale or gamesmanship?
If it was either, I don't blame him, and I'm not calling him a liar. Coaches "stretch the truth" all the time when it suits the cause.
No, a national championship means more than a BET championship (duh). Shaka would have been willing to play Tyler despite the sihnificant risk of reinjury. There's a point with some injuries where players can play but are at risk for reinjury. Shaka wasn't lying about anything.
I've said this a couple of times but it doesn't seem to be translating. My only beef was with those suggesting that even if Kolek wasn't at risk for reinjury he should sit because who cares about the BET? (The answer being Shaka, the team, etc)
-
Guys, I now know why Tyler was able to do so well in Indy.
I didn’t play Pickleball for a full week until last night. My body got right, but I also took time to think about my game, watch video, get my MIND right.
Last night, I dominated. Has never played so well. Next level was reached. Same paddle. Same Pickleball shoes. NEW ME!
Tyler? Same thing. We are brothers in athletics.
PED test back yet?
-
While deferring to your inside information, TAMU, I do admit I wonder why there wasn't significant risk for reinjury as a full participant in full-contact practice a day or 2 after the BET. Marquette's full-contact practices are not for the weak of heart - or torso.
There's no way they were practicing with TKO, Oso, Stevie, Chase, etc... like they were even mid-season. I'm sure they needed to get him back into form and flow, but obviously full-contact means different things at different times of the season. That said, their level of intensity at practice, even late in the year amazes me. They do show common sense, however. No one was taking a cheap shot at Kolek in practice. That was absolutely going to happen in the BEAST tournament on top of the tournament intensity with a BEAST whistle. We saw that a few times with Stevie and Oso.
-
No, a national championship means more than a BET championship (duh). Shaka would have been willing to play Tyler despite the sihnificant risk of reinjury. There's a point with some injuries where players can play but are at risk for reinjury. Shaka wasn't lying about anything.
I've said this a couple of times but it doesn't seem to be translating. My only beef was with those suggesting that even if Kolek wasn't at risk for reinjury he should sit because who cares about the BET? (The answer being Shaka, the team, etc)
I think we're finally on the same page here - actually, I think we already were but might have been bogged down in semantics.
And speaking of semantics ...
I'm having a little trouble with the way "medically cleared" has been tossed about in this case.
When I hear that an athlete "isn't medically cleared to play," I take it to mean that, regardless how important a game might be, the athlete simply can't play. Why? Because he's not medically cleared to do so - he isn't healthy enough. But if what you said earlier is true - and I have every reason to believe it is, because it's common sense - then Tyler could have played the week of the BET had the national title been on the line. Therefore, he must have been medically cleared to do so.
If that's not right, then "medically cleared" is a meaningless term. Either you're medically cleared or you're not.
-
Happy b-day to Tyko.
-
The biggest problem with Tyler being soft was, Dung had to see them lose a game while sitting on his couch
-
Within an article previewing the next phase of the tournament, The Athletic's Brian Bennett wrote:
It’s still got the artistry of Marquette’s offense led by point guard Tyler Kolek, the closest thing to Steve Nash the college game has seen in years ...
-
It was 9-9-9's use of "somewhere among" that raised my eyebrows.
Kolek is as "somewhere among" a list of players that includes Oliver Lee, Michael Wilson, Sam Hauser, Brian Wardle and Vander Blue" as Larry Bird is "somewhere among" a list of former NBA players that includes Hersey Hawkins, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Hornacek, Gus Williams and Trevor Ariza.
It doesn't mean those 5 former pros I named weren't accomplished, but I think you'd agree it's silly to rank Bird "among" them.
MU82:
Not sure if you saw the original post, in response to the legacy question you posed. I have enormous respect for Tyko ,Tied for second All Time among MU Point Guards with two others . Also have in top 20 overall. There are 4 other positions and each of those have at least 4 great players . So thats how I got to 20.
Also I said TyKo still has opportunity to move higher cause he is still playing.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=66003.msg1644417#msg1644417
The list I made was in response to Goose question about who ranked above Tyko in Post Al Era. My response is only Wade.
The reference list is the post Al stars we have had. There is a recency bias and list really just lays out how many great players we have had .
Add in the Al and Pre Al Era Stars and Top 20 at a historic basketball school like MU is a big deal.
Here is another way to look at it. Ranking the top players is like a golf tournament . The historical guys are in the clubhouse, TyKo still has 4 more holes on the board one is a Par 5 he can Eagle. If Tyko takes us to promised land he passes a lot of truly great college players and moves well up the MU leaderboard
-
TKo is one of three 2 time all americans in program history and has led Marquette to its two highest seeds in program history. The dude is in the clubhouse and any guys not on the national championship team or not named Dwyane are below him at this point.
I don't know what the opposite of receny bias is, but you got it Herm.
-
TKo is one of three 2 time all americans in program history and has led Marquette to its two highest seeds in program history. The dude is in the clubhouse and any guys not on the national championship team or not named Dwyane are below him at this point.
I don't know what the opposite of receny bias is, but you got it Herm.
Herm is still reeling from his preseason predictions
-
MU82:
Not sure if you saw the original post, in response to the legacy question you posed. I have enormous respect for Tyko ,Tied for second All Time among MU Point Guards with two others . Also have in top 20 overall. There are 4 other positions and each of those have at least 4 great players . So thats how I got to 20.
Also I said TyKo still has opportunity to move higher cause he is still playing.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=66003.msg1644417#msg1644417
The list I made was in response to Goose question about who ranked above Tyko in Post Al Era. My response is only Wade.
The reference list is the post Al stars we have had. There is a recency bias and list really just lays out how many great players we have had .
Add in the Al and Pre Al Era Stars and Top 20 at a historic basketball school like MU is a big deal.
Here is another way to look at it. Ranking the top players is like a golf tournament . The historical guys are in the clubhouse, TyKo still has 4 more holes on the board one is a Par 5 he can Eagle. If Tyko takes us to promised land he passes a lot of truly great college players and moves well up the MU leaderboard
Ranking Kolek "among" Oliver Lee, Aaron Hutchins and Sam Hauser is as dopey as hell ... but this is still America, and you still have the right to make any dopey list you want.
-
Really good read on TK and Kam's relationship in The Athletic:
https://theathletic.com/5370141/2024/03/27/marquette-basketball-tyler-kolek-kam-jones/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=3738391
-
Really good read on TK and Kam's relationship in The Athletic:
https://theathletic.com/5370141/2024/03/27/marquette-basketball-tyler-kolek-kam-jones/?campaign=5888993&source=dailyemail&userId=3738391
Great article. Thanks for posting 82.
-
Guys, I now know why Tyler was able to do so well in Indy.
I didn’t play Pickleball for a full week until last night. My body got right, but I also took time to think about my game, watch video, get my MIND right.
Last night, I dominated. Has never played so well. Next level was reached. Same paddle. Same Pickleball shoes. NEW ME!
Tyler? Same thing. We are brothers in athletics.
I credit Ponce Gold
-
I get the point of folks who are apparently hedging their answer on whether TyKo is rafter-ready depending on how far this team advances, but basketball is a team sport. Penalizing a player for lack of Dance success seems a bit unfair since there's only so far even terrific players can carry a team in a five-on-five sport. Yes, I think it's a factor, but not one that should be discriminatory to a great (unnamed here) player who had an outstanding MU career. Likewise, I don't feel that career success post-MU should be that great a factor - hanging a number (or jersey) at MU games should be very largely determined on the basis of what the player did here.
Personally, I think what Kolek has already done puts him in the elite category and feel he's deserving of the honor. Some may disagree, but Marcus deserves it as well.
-
Personally, I think what Kolek has already done puts him in the elite category and feel he's deserving of the honor. Some may disagree, but Marcus deserves it as well.
If not rafters, at least spelling his name correctly seems in order.
-
Oops, my miss. I’ll be watching your grammar, JB, after this correction.
-
TK is one of the all time greats. I guess I put a lot of weight on the tournament, that is how teams and players are remembered years later. As pg's Travis Diener and Junior Cadougan had way more tournament success that Kolek
-
Kolek was better than both of them. Junior wasn’t even in the same galaxy.
-
TK is one of the all time greats. I guess I put a lot of weight on the tournament, that is how teams and players are remembered years later. As pg's Travis Diener and Junior Cadougan had way more tournament success that Kolek
Kolek is still better than both those two.
-
Kolek was better than both of them. Junior wasn’t even in the same galaxy.
2 sweet 16's and an elite 8, part of the last team that actually met/exceeded march expectations......all while playing a tougher big east schedule
-
2 sweet 16's and an elite 8, part of the last team that actually met/exceeded march expectations......all while playing a tougher big east schedule
Tyler Kolek is better than Junior and will
have a far greater legacy.
Which one are you taking on your team? Which one are you taking to start a program?
Fans never understand the bigger picture
-
2 sweet 16's and an elite 8, part of the last team that actually met/exceeded march expectations......all while playing a tougher big east schedule
Kolek was a two time all American and BEPOY. Not to mention last night he was the only player to show up. Junior at best was the third or fourth best player on his own team.
I get it. People are upset about yesterday. But don’t let your logic fail you in the process. They’re not even close.
-
never said Junior was better than Kolek........but his teams did have way more success in march and that does mean something.
-
never said Junior was better than Kolek........but his teams did have way more success in march and that does mean something.
Will you remember Junior more fondly than Tyler?
-
Will you remember Junior more fondly than Tyler?
no idea.......ask again in 10 years
-
never said Junior was better than Kolek........but his teams did have way more success in march and that does mean something.
Well so did Todd Mayo and Jamal Ferguson by that logic.
-
Well so did Todd Mayo and Jamal Ferguson by that logic.
that was dumb.......junior was starting pg and one of the top contributors on those teams
it is fun to debate........
-
Junior was a run of the mill player. Tyler is one of the best to play here. That’s the simplicity of the argument.
Anyone who thinks Junior may have a greater legacy is engaging in nonsense. It’s not even a question.
-
that was dumb.......junior was starting pg and one of the top contributors on those teams
it is fun to debate........
He was the starting PG. He was not one of the top contributors. Junior was to those teams what Jop was to this year's team. An adequate starter who had occasional big games, but was never the star of his team.
The idea that Junior would ever be in the conversation with Kolek is laughable. It's not a debate. You wanna talk Diener or Dream, then maybe you have a debate.
-
I have no idea why intelligent posters engage in conversation with uneducated basketball fans. The quality of posters on scoop matches my disappointment from the loss last night. I was hoping that watching good basketball will shed light to some fans on what good basketball looks like and it has not happened.
-
never said Junior was better than Kolek........but his teams did have way more success in march and that does mean something.
Tyler had a great performance individually in this year‘s NCAA and was not 100% either of the last two years. Definitely a better legacy than Junior. Can’t control your teammates’ play entirely.
-
Tyler had a great performance individually in this year‘s NCAA and was not 100% either of the last two years. Definitely a better legacy than Junior. Can’t control your teammates’ play entirely.
Tyler would have had a triple double if the 3 point shooters would have shot even close to average
-
Bill Neary started for a national championship team.
Ipso fatso, he's way better than Kolek. And Wade, for that matter.
-
OK, the season is over.
Tyler belongs in the rafters. As I said earlier, I'd like this to sit for a year or two and let folks reflect on Tyler's true accomplishments. As I said in another thread, I think he is this generation's George Thompson and I hope he's the guy that gets it all rolling for another big run at a Natty.
Given all this, the guys that aren't in the rafters that probably should be are:
1) Tyler Kolek
2) Jim Chones -- nobody else goes up until Chones goes up. He was incredible. Given his age, he should go up soon! Probably was the second most talented player ever for Marquette.
There is nobody else who was transformative enough that I'd put up there. We're not the collection of very good players. These are the folks that made a difference in our program.
To be candid, I might even put Kevin O'Neill up there because he saved us from ourselves and Tom Crean because he got us to the Final Four and recruited DWade!
-
OK, the season is over.
Tyler belongs in the rafters. As I said earlier, I'd like this to sit for a year or two and let folks reflect on Tyler's true accomplishments. As I said in another thread, I think he is this generation's George Thompson and I hope he's the guy that gets it all rolling for another big run at a Natty.
Given all this, the guys that aren't in the rafters that probably should be are:
1) Tyler Kolek
2) Jim Chones -- nobody else goes up until Chones goes up. He was incredible. Given his age, he should go up soon! Probably was the second most talented player ever for Marquette.
There is nobody else who was transformative enough that I'd put up there. We're not the collection of very good players. These are the folks that made a difference in our program.
To be candid, I might even put Kevin O'Neill up there because he saved us from ourselves and Tom Crean because he got us to the Final Four and recruited DWade!
You spelled his name wrong. It's spelled Markus Howard
-
I have no idea why intelligent posters engage in conversation with uneducated basketball fans. The quality of posters on scoop matches my disappointment from the loss last night. I was hoping that watching good basketball will shed light to some fans on what good basketball looks like and it has not happened.
Ha! Don’t let it get you down Goose. WWTS? F’ EM.
-
Shooter
I find it to be funny. It used to bother me and now just laugh.
-
I really hope Kolek comes back for one more run.
Amazing player, but his legacy just feels like something is missing.
-
Junior was a run of the mill player. Tyler is one of the best to play here. That’s the simplicity of the argument.
Anyone who thinks Junior may have a greater legacy is engaging in nonsense. It’s not even a question.
I think Junior was underrated as a player and floor leader. Tyler is miles better.
-
I liked Junior and defended him on Scoop way back when.
That said, I think he represents the "floor" of what a program like Marquette should get from its PG.
And that he's even being discussed as a comparison to one of the best PGs (if not the best) in program history is borderline insanity.
-
82
It is not borderline insanity.
-
82
It is not borderline insanity.
True. Sorry for inserting an unnecessary word in that clause.
-
82
It is not borderline insanity.
It is insanity.
-
Retire 11 right after we retire 0
Markus didn't lead his team to anything except his own individual achievements.
Travis before Markus. Tony Miller before Markus.
-
Markus didn't lead his team to anything except his own individual achievements.
Travis before Markus. Tony Miller before Markus.
Bill Neary before any of them.
-
Markus didn't lead his team to anything except his own individual achievements.
Travis before Markus. Tony Miller before Markus.
Silly.
-
Not a fan of jersey/number retirements. Tyler’s legacy will live on for a long time
-
TK named a Wooden Finalist.
https://twitter.com/WoodenAward/status/1775297097874710610
-
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39862392/zach-edey-dalton-knecht-top-wooden-finalists-all-american-team
Not one of the five finalists, on the All American team.
-
Well he’s no Junior Cadougan