Interesting outside perspective on big time basketball and Buzz

[Dawson Rental]

You listed 6 of the 15 teams.  If VT is 7th on this list (middle of the ACC) then they are expected to be a better program than ND, Pitt, Maryland, Wake, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech and Clemson.

You think this is realistic?

Here is my point, for Brent everything is riding on next year's recruiting class.  If we assume he finishes last this year in the ACC (safe assumption), if he does not get some players this fall/winter to commit, then they get no buzz (no pun intended) and Brent falls into invisibility in the very bottom of the ACC.  No press, no attention, no excitement.  He becomes a trivia question.

Remember VT is not IU.  VT's name alone does not get it attention like IU.  VT's attention now is Brent.  And to keep it going he has to either win (which he will not do next year) or get recruits.

Goodman and Katz are not going to waste their time with stories and attention for the 10th to 13th best ACC team with the 35th to 41st best recruiting class.

Disagree?  You think he can stink and not get good recruits for two years and still have the cache to turn it around?

Maryland is leaving.  The other team in the eight that Buzz must beat is Florida State, which is by no means a slouch, either.

My answer wasn't based on what I thought was realistic, it was based on what VT's AD was saying prior to hiring Buzz.  It seems wildly unrealistic to me, but MU's 2012-13 season was somewhat unrealistic, as well.  Yet, Buzz reportedly left MU, in part, because he felt that he couldn't keep up with the expectations he had created here.  So, I'm thinking that while Buzz realizes that he's walked into a position with unrealistic expectations, he isn't worried because he more than covered himself in the contract that he negotiated with VT.  Most likely, he does bring considerable improvement to VT, then he moves on when the buyout on his contract drops to a manageable level in five years or so.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You listed 6 of the 15 teams.  If VT is 7th on this list (middle of the ACC) then they are expected to be a better program than ND, Pitt, Maryland, Wake, Boston College, Miami, Georgia Tech and Clemson.

You think this is realistic?

Here is my point, for Brent everything is riding on next year's recruiting class.  If we assume he finishes last this year in the ACC (safe assumption), if he does not get some players this fall/winter to commit, then they get no buzz (no pun intended) and Brent falls into invisibility in the very bottom of the ACC.  No press, no attention, no excitement.  He becomes a trivia question.

Remember VT is not IU.  VT's name alone does not get it attention like IU.  VT's attention now is Brent.  And to keep it going he has to either win (which he will not do next year) or get recruits.

Goodman and Katz are not going to waste their time with stories and attention for the 10th to 13th best ACC team with the 35th to 41st best recruiting class.

Disagree?  You think he can stink and not get good recruits for two years and still have the cache to turn it around?

Buzz is great in an underdog role.

He's been an underdog wherever he's gone.

He'll find a bunch of kids that are underdogs, he'll push them farther than they ever thought possible, and they will be better than most people expect.

In a way, VT is the perfect situation for Buzz. He can take the underdog role, work his ass off, and everybody will love him for it.

I think he'll do well.

[keefe]

Let's just not go there...doesn't end well for anybody.

But what about tradition?

[Tugg Speedman]

Buzz is great in an underdog role.

He's been an underdog wherever he's gone.

He'll find a bunch of kids that are underdogs, he'll push them farther than they ever thought possible, and they will be better than most people expect.

In a way, VT is the perfect situation for Buzz. He can take the underdog role, work his ass off, and everybody will love him for it.

I think he'll do well.

Devils advocate .... So VT is paying Brent $19 million and giving him all that control with the expectation that he finishes 6 or 7 in the ACC and get bounced in the first round on the NCAA once every few years?  That what they are paying for?

Why not hire Wojo if that is what you want?  He's far cheaper and could give you that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Devils advocate .... So VT is paying Brent $19 million and giving him all that control with the expectation that he finishes 6 or 7 in the ACC and get bounced in the first round on the NCAA once every few years?  That what they are paying for?

Why not hire Wojo if that is what you want?  He's far cheaper and could give you that.

Right, but therein lies the problem. VT has been searching for their own "Wojo" and have never found him. They have not been able to identify and retain a successful young(er) coach that can build something at VT.

They are having to overpay for a guy to help get them off of the ground.

I'm not saying that Buzz contract is a good for VT, but I do think Buzz will do a good job there.

[Tugg Speedman]

Right, but therein lies the problem. VT has been searching for their own "Wojo" and have never found him. They have not been able to identify and retain a successful young(er) coach that can build something at VT.

They are having to overpay for a guy to help get them off of the ground.

I'm not saying that Buzz contract is a good for VT, but I do think Buzz will do a good job there.

Not to go around and around ... If good means he can afford another 13,000 foot home with an indoor basketball court, I agree!

If good means peaking at 5th in the ACC and making the tourney ONCE, I'm not sure that is defined as good.

[UticaBusBarn]

While in agreement with most comments, my take on the article is a bit different.

It casts Beauregard as being of questionable integrity, pointing out how he bailed out of New Orleans (they brought an action against him for breach of contract), and how he left Marquette.

Beauregard was on the way to building a legacy at MU and everyone, more or less, bought into his story/pitch. However, when one is the subject of a story from College Park, of all places, that questions one's credibility, it is obvious that Beauregard's proverbial "song and dance" is no longer fully credible.

Frankly, I believe he sealed his fate not at New Orleans, or how he handled Newbill, or by his leaving Milwaukee under the cover of darkness. Rather, he damaged his own reputation with his pathetic attempts, in the national media (read ESPN), to explain why he left Marquette.

He might win at VT, which after all is THE criteria for success. He will certainly make lots of money there. But, in the end, he has now created the image of down home guy ... carrying an awful lot of emotional baggage. This is going to make everything that much more difficult for him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Not to go around and around ... If good means he can afford another 13,000 foot home with an indoor basketball court, I agree!

If good means peaking at 5th in the ACC and making the tourney ONCE, I'm not sure that is defined as good.

Hiring Buzz Williams doesn't guarantee them anything. But, clearly, whatever VT has been doing hasn't been working.

They found an opportunity to bring in a established coach with a winning record, and they had to overpay to get it done.

I think it's pretty easy to say they overpaid, but what was their other option? Hire another assistant and hope for the best? It's never worked for them before. They don't know how to find talented coaches. If they did, they wouldn't need to overpay for Buzz.

They don't have an established culture. They don't have the support. They honestly have no idea how to develop a winning program. Buzz (love him or hate him) has the ego and work ethic to provide a lot of that structure for them.

Wins will ultimately determine if Buzz was worth the contract, but the reality is that VT didn't really have any other good options. They have tried and failed a lot of different ways.

[mu03eng]

While in agreement with most comments, my take on the article is a bit different.

It casts Beauregard as being of questionable integrity, pointing out how he bailed out of New Orleans (they brought an action against him for breach of contract), and how he left Marquette.

Beauregard was on the way to building a legacy at MU and everyone, more or less, bought into his story/pitch. However, when one is the subject of a story from College Park, of all places, that questions one's credibility, it is obvious that Beauregard's proverbial "song and dance" is no longer fully credible.

Frankly, I believe he sealed his fate not at New Orleans, or how he handled Newbill, or by his leaving Milwaukee under the cover of darkness. Rather, he damaged his own reputation with his pathetic attempts, in the national media (read ESPN), to explain why he left Marquette.

He might win at VT, which after all is THE criteria for success. He will certainly make lots of money there. But, in the end, he has now created the image of down home guy ... carrying an awful lot of emotional baggage. This is going to make everything that much more difficult for him.

I'm assuming when you say College Park(Maryland) you really mean State College(Penn State) which is not to be confused with College Station(TAMU) 

If that assumption is correct, you do have to take it worth a grain of salt.  Newbill is from Philly and is a senior on PSUs roster so some of the indignation there comes from PSU bball fans "protecting" their own.  I don't think the indignation is nearly as wide spread as you might think.

You know what fanbases view Curly in a bad light?  New Orleans, Marquette, PSU, maybe Bucky, and whatever ACC team VT happens to be playing that day.  Only people who are paying close attention see the wild inconsistency of Curly's "explanations", the casual fan does not.  Certain VT doesn't because they are in love.

His reputation is only damaged with those fanbases who care.....all 0.2% of the total fanbase out there.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

You know what fanbases view Curly in a bad light?  New Orleans, Marquette, PSU, maybe Bucky, and whatever ACC team VT happens to be playing that day.

West Va

[Tugg Speedman]

Hiring Buzz Williams doesn't guarantee them anything. But, clearly, whatever VT has been doing hasn't been working.

They found an opportunity to bring in a established coach with a winning record, and they had to overpay to get it done.

I think it's pretty easy to say they overpaid, but what was their other option? Hire another assistant and hope for the best? It's never worked for them before. They don't know how to find talented coaches. If they did, they wouldn't need to overpay for Buzz.

They don't have an established culture. They don't have the support. They honestly have no idea how to develop a winning program. Buzz (love him or hate him) has the ego and work ethic to provide a lot of that structure for them.

Wins will ultimately determine if Buzz was worth the contract, but the reality is that VT didn't really have any other good options. They have tried and failed a lot of different ways.

I understand all this and agree with it.  But it reminds me of that famous, and totally correct, line that Warren Buffett says (paraphrasing) ... when a company with a bad reputation hires a manger with a good reputation, it is the companies reputation that wins out.

If VT is as dysfunctional as you say, and you might be correct, they cannot be saved.  Even Coach K would fail.

For prof that the dysfunctional organization ruins managers with good reputations, See Seth Greenberg at VT a few years ago.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I understand all this and agree with it.  But it reminds me of that famous, and totally correct, line that Warren Buffett says (paraphrasing) ... when a company with a bad reputation hires a manger with a good reputation, it is the companies reputation that wins out.

If VT is as dysfunctional as you say, and you might be correct, they cannot be saved.  Even Coach K would fail.

For prof that the dysfunctional organization ruins managers with good reputations, See Seth Greenberg at VT a few years ago.

You're not wrong, but what else are they supposed to do? Just cancel basketball?

VT has some potential as a program, but they haven't been able to identify or pay the right person to lead it.

I don't know if Buzz is the correct guy or not, but I don't blame them for trying it.

[tower912]

I understand all this and agree with it.  But it reminds me of that famous, and totally correct, line that Warren Buffett says (paraphrasing) ... when a company with a bad reputation hires a manger with a good reputation, it is the companies reputation that wins out.

If VT is as dysfunctional as you say, and you might be correct, they cannot be saved.  Even Coach K would fail.

For prof that the dysfunctional organization ruins managers with good reputations, See Seth Greenberg at VT a few years ago.

Steve Mariucci would agree with this.   As would any other Detroit Lion's coach ever. 

[GGGG]

You're not wrong, but what else are they supposed to do? Just cancel basketball?

VT has some potential as a program, but they haven't been able to identify or pay the right person to lead it.

I don't know if Buzz is the correct guy or not, but I don't blame them for trying it.

And look at the last two ACC winners...Miami and Virginia.  Both hired head coaches that were successful elsewhere and ending up bringing their respective schools back from obscurity.

Is it *that* inconceivable that Virginia Tech can take the same step under Buzz? 

[willie warrior]

And look at the last two ACC winners...Miami and Virginia.  Both hired head coaches that were successful elsewhere and ending up bringing their respective schools back from obscurity.

Is it *that* inconceivable that Virginia Tech can take the same step under Buzz? 

Sultan would love that to happen so he can continue to slurp the Buzzster.

[ChicosBailBonds]

At Marquette, success for Buzz was being our best coach ever not named Al McGuire. No Al in V Tech's history book. Success will be being their #1 basketball coach ever. Anything less will be failure.

He might go down as the MU coach who did the most with the least talent  one year as well as the coach that did the least with the most talent in another year.

[brandx]

And look at the last two ACC winners...Miami and Virginia.  Both hired head coaches that were successful elsewhere and ending up bringing their respective schools back from obscurity.

Is it *that* inconceivable that Virginia Tech can take the same step under Buzz? 

Viginia's obscurity was just a bit different than VT's obscurity. 24 out of 30 years they were over .500 before Bennett

And Miami was .500 or better for 14 of 17 years before hiring Larranaga.

I don't see any comparison with VT.

[Tugg Speedman]

You're not wrong, but what else are they supposed to do? Just cancel basketball?

VT has some potential as a program, but they haven't been able to identify or pay the right person to lead it.

I don't know if Buzz is the correct guy or not, but I don't blame them for trying it.

Right now VT treats basketball like the SEC football powers (Alabama, Auburn, Old Miss, LSU, etc) they are not really into it but it would be nice if they did not embarrass them and maybe offer them two or three "interesting" home games to keep everyone's attention between bowl season and spring football.  VT absymal track record says this.

VT needs to support basketball from the President down.  Boosters, students and the athletic department need to make it a priority.  I think the Brent hire was done as basketball is a priority to the new AD (from Cincy, a school that cares about Basketball) because he cares.

If they want anything from MU, how about learning from the institution support basketball has.  The program replaces its coaches with newly promoted assistants (O'Neill, Crean , Brent and now Wojo) and they are all successful (assumption being made on Wojo).  It's not because someone at MU has a clairvoyance about assistant coaches.  Rather, it is a complete university wide support to the program that is both attractive to the best assistants in the country and puts them in the best possible position to succeed.

Throwing a bunch of money at a coach at a university that only marginally cares about basketball with a mandate to win and keep the arrest down to a minimum is not a formula for success.

[Lennys Tap]

He might go down as the MU coach who did the most with the least talent  one year as well as the coach that did the least with the most talent in another year.

We went 9-9 in the big east and barely missed the NIT with zero NBA players in the starting line up last year. In 2004 and 2005 we went 8-8 and 7-9 in CUSA, made the NIT and got our butts kicked with two (2) NBA players in the starting line up. I don't think you really want to go there.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We went 9-9 in the big east and barely missed the NIT with zero NBA players in the starting line up last year. In 2004 and 2005 we went 8-8 and 7-9 in CUSA, made the NIT and got our butts kicked with two (2) NBA players in the starting line up. I don't think you really want to go there.

Oh it's easy to go there. 

This isn't your dad's Big East that we just went 9-9 in.  This was an Elite 8 team coming back to a majorly diluted conference that we should have rolled, had two preseason All Big East players on the team (both seniors) and the most heralded freshmen class at MU in many years.  The juggernaut Big East sent only 4 teams to the NCAA in which we were a resounding 2-4.

In 2004, Conference USA sent SIX teams to the NCAA tournament and went 5-6.
In 2005, Conference USA sent four teams to the tournament, and went 6-4.

Sure, we had FUTURE NBA players (one of which was a sophomore) on there that no one thought would go to the NBA until their senior years, unlike this past year's team that had players on it that people THOUGHT would make the NBA but went backwards.

I'll go there all day long based on competition, based on age and experience of the top players, based on the mediocrity of the conference, etc...all...day....long.   Last year was a major FUK UP.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Right now VT treats basketball like the SEC football powers (Alabama, Auburn, Old Miss, LSU, etc) they are not really into it but it would be nice if they did not embarrass them and maybe offer them two or three "interesting" home games to keep everyone's attention between bowl season and spring football.  VT absymal track record says this.

VT needs to support basketball from the President down.  Boosters, students and the athletic department need to make it a priority.  I think the Brent hire was done as basketball is a priority to the new AD (from Cincy, a school that cares about Basketball) because he cares.

If they want anything from MU, how about learning from the institution support basketball has.  The program replaces its coaches with newly promoted assistants (O'Neill, Crean , Brent and now Wojo) and they are all successful (assumption being made on Wojo).  It's not because someone at MU has a clairvoyance about assistant coaches.  Rather, it is a complete university wide support to the program that is both attractive to the best assistants in the country and puts them in the best possible position to succeed.

Throwing a bunch of money at a coach at a university that only marginally cares about basketball with a mandate to win and keep the arrest down to a minimum is not a formula for success.

MU & VT are running complete different business models.

Football is priority 1-12 at VT. That's the way it is. That's the way it will always be.

What should VT do?

Fire the president? Turn away the top boosters who only care about football?

Now, that doesn't mean their basketball team doesn't have potential, but using MU as a model isn't really apples to apples.

Also, if it was easy to recreate was MU was doing, DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, etc. would just do the same thing. Turns out what MU is doing is HARD. We all know what it takes, but it's hard to do it well.

I think it's rare that a school like VT has a shot at a coach with Buzz's established track record. They are taking a big swing. We'll see if it works out. I think it's totally reasonable to be skeptical for the reasons you provided, but also, if I'm a VT fan, I'm optimistic. They just landed an established coach and his top assistants. That's big. You gotta start somewhere.

[mu03eng]

MU & VT are running complete different business models.

Football is priority 1-12 at VT. That's the way it is. That's the way it will always be.

What should VT do?

Fire the president? Turn away the top boosters who only care about football?

Now, that doesn't mean their basketball team doesn't have potential, but using MU as a model isn't really apples to apples.

Also, if it was easy to recreate was MU was doing, DePaul, St. John's, Seton Hall, etc. would just do the same thing. Turns out what MU is doing is HARD. We all know what it takes, but it's hard to do it well.

I think it's rare that a school like VT has a shot at a coach with Buzz's established track record. They are taking a big swing. We'll see if it works out. I think it's totally reasonable to be skeptical for the reasons you provided, but also, if I'm a VT fan, I'm optimistic. They just landed an established coach and his top assistants. That's big. You gotta start somewhere.

Ammo I agree with you, but what I think will be interesting is how long that optimism lasts.  I look at it from the perspective of with that contract, what should I expect out of it and middle of the pack is not something I would accept for a contract like that.  Also, based on the structure of that contract Curly ain't getting fired, no way no how.  How quickly does optimism turn to apathy or worse resentment if they are just treading water?

What will be interesting is that I don't think Curly handles being questioned or second guessed and has a stubborn streak....that's part of the appeal of the VT job for him, theoretically he can do whatever he wants.  However, if he doesn't produce at a high level and fans start question him, what happens then, especially when he won't get fired?   It'll be interesting to watch.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Ammo I agree with you, but what I think will be interesting is how long that optimism lasts.  I look at it from the perspective of with that contract, what should I expect out of it and middle of the pack is not something I would accept for a contract like that.  Also, based on the structure of that contract Curly ain't getting fired, no way no how.  How quickly does optimism turn to apathy or worse resentment if they are just treading water?

What will be interesting is that I don't think Curly handles being questioned or second guessed and has a stubborn streak....that's part of the appeal of the VT job for him, theoretically he can do whatever he wants.  However, if he doesn't produce at a high level and fans start question him, what happens then, especially when he won't get fired?   It'll be interesting to watch.

Agreed. The contract is risky for VT. It's a big swing at a name coach. They overpaid, either out of ignorance, or because they had to.

I think it's as simple as this:
- If they win, it was "worth it", even if Buzz leaves after 4 seasons.
- If they lose, then it's going to cost VT a lot of $$ to change directions.

Obviously there are all sorts of little intricacies, but this is where everything starts and ends. Wins=good. Losing=bad.

The best thing about sports is that in 5 years, we'll have a pretty good idea if the Buzz to VT experiment was a good idea (for VT & for Buzz).  

EDIT: As far as "middle of the pack for a contract like that", I guess that's debatable for me. They are starting from square 1, so I don't know if I can reasonably expect upper half ACC finishes every year.

[Spotcheck Billy]

How does Bent's contract compare with other ACC Bball coaches? Maybe he's in the bottom half still and VT will get what they paid for if they regularly finish in the bottom half.

[rocky_warrior]

How does Bent's contract compare with other ACC Bball coaches? Maybe he's in the bottom half still and VT will get what they paid for if they regularly finish in the bottom half.

This is from last year, and Williams=Roy, but basically you've got Coach K and Pitino at the top, and then a whole big group below that in the $1-2 million range (and the 3 lowest winning % guys aren't working in the ACC anymore).