In bounds ineptitude and why

[MuggsyB]

Can we not get the ball in bounds because of personnel or coaching?   Having one ball-handler has hampered us but I'm just wondering what people think is the root of this problem?

[Daniel]

Buzz had a couple of teams that had problems inbounding the ball.  When we in inbound into a corner that is a coaching issue, or poorly executed inbound plays by players.  But motion of the team members is key to get free.   That’s coaching. 

Our problem is probably half and half.  I have to get the ball inbounds or coach will have a fit.  So they feed the corner. 

Most teams have zero problems inbounding a ball against us.   Hmm

[MuggsyB]

Buzz had a couple of teams that had problems inbounding the ball.  When we in inbound into a corner that is a coaching issue, or poorly executed inbound plays by players.  But motion of the team members is key to get free.   That’s coaching. 

Our problem is probably half and half.  I have to get the ball inbounds or coach will have a fit.  So they feed the corner. 

Most teams have zero problems inbounding a ball against us.   Hmm

Why can't we get free in your opinion?  Quicks and physicality?  Good point that no one seems to have trouble in bounding against us.

[brewcity77]

It's coaching. We were very good at baseline out of bounds plays when Stan was here. Now we suck, and LMU is better than ever at them. Hardly seems like a coincidence. Same reason I'm skeptical we'll recapture our three point accuracy now that the guys taking the shots didn't work with Nelson, while Holy Cross has seen their 3PFG% rank improve by over 150 spots from Brett's year one to year two.

[MarquetteDano]

Forget what team I was watching last year but they "fell" for inbounding the ball in the corner but it was their power forward.  The corners often drew 2 defenders so there is no need to dribble.

The advantage is that his height made it relatively easy to pass over the defenders. And now you have guards who will receive the ball and can dribble out of the backcourt.

Once the other coach realizes this the defense will of course makes the forward dribble but if they don't double team the forward they just handed off the ball to a guard.

Not a perfect solution but one of many Wojo does not seem to employ.

[hairy worthen]

Can we not get the ball in bounds because of personnel or coaching?   Having one ball-handler has hampered us but I'm just wondering what people think is the root of this problem?

I am sure these guys have been taught how to get open on inbounds since 3rd grade.  IDK, but you would think a coach that saw his team having issues inbounding the ball would focus hard on that in practice.  We consistently see the same mistakes happen over and over again in all aspects of the game not just inbounding. Teams are good at what they spend time on in practice.

[RubyWiscy]

In fairness I have seen many teams with almost no inbound effort or plan this season. Tossing the ball long to the backcourt has become the norm. Not sure why that is.

[Uncle Rico]

In fairness I have seen many teams with almost no inbound effort or plan this season. Tossing the ball long to the backcourt has become the norm. Not sure why that is.

I think it’s a larger issue of bad coaching across the college landscape.  Kids are less polished coming into college as well.  The game from the bottom up is worse than it’s been in a long time.  How we coach kids from the lower levels through college is suspect. 

[Scoop Snoop]

I am sure these guys have been taught how to get open on inbounds since 3rd grade.  IDK, but you would think a coach that saw his team having issues inbounding the ball would focus hard on that in practice.  We consistently see the same mistakes happen over and over again in all aspects of the game not just inbounding. Teams are good at what they spend time on in practice.

This is why I really do not understand why some here believe that, if Wojo is at MU next season, we will somehow be better. His MO has been to rely on players like Markus and Sam to cover his inability to work on fundamentals. This was my fear when he was hired 7 years ago- that we were getting a recruiter but not a full fledged coach. I get that recruiting is responsible for a large part of a team's success, but if Wojo cannot even coach the players to inbounds properly, why expect that he can correct the many other repetitive problems?

[brewcity77]

This is why I really do not understand why some here believe that, if Wojo is at MU next season, we will somehow be better. His MO has been to rely on players like Markus and Sam to cover his inability to work on fundamentals. This was my fear when he was hired 7 years ago- that we were getting a recruiter but not a full fledged coach. I get that recruiting is responsible for a large part of a team's success, but if Wojo cannot even coach the players to inbounds properly, why expect that he can correct the many other repetitive problems?

Losing experienced seniors Theo, Jamal, and Koby, possibly others, and replacing them with freshmen seems like a step back. I think we'll be notably worse as a team even if some of our players are individually better.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think people are holding out hope for next season because arguably the three best offensive players (two freshman and a sophomore who only played half his freshman year) are returning.

But yeah I would be surprised if we were better.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

In fairness I have seen many teams with almost no inbound effort or plan this season. Tossing the ball long to the backcourt has become the norm. Not sure why that is.

It's not necessarily a bad move if you have time on the shotclock.  NBA teams do it all the time because they believe setting up the offense will lead to a better scoring chance.

[hairy worthen]

I think people are holding out hope for next season because arguably the three best offensive players (two freshman and a sophomore who only played half his freshman year) are returning.

But yeah I would be surprised if we were better.

Do we know for sure the two freshmen and sophomore are returning?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Do we know for sure the two freshmen and sophomore are returning?

Nope.

[Daniel]

Why can't we get free in your opinion?  Quicks and physicality?  Good point that no one seems to have trouble in bounding against us.

Don’t know Muggs.  My opinion is not well formulated lol.  We are not a physical or quick team...but I think it’s motion.  We don’t have a motion offense.  Our half court execution is very predictable and so I think is our inbounding.

[tower912]

An inbounds play where Markus lobs the ball to Theo, follows the pass, gets it back and hits the three looks a lot better than Koby doing the same first two steps and then dribbling too much.

Lobbing to Cain (and even Akanno) at the rim when they are being face guarded by a smaller defender works once every couple of games.

[muspc2]

    This entire thread seems to point to what we have all witnessed; an absence and/or ineptitude of coaching of this MU team. WOJO jumps up and down on the sideline and exhorts effort and getting back on defense. He apparently believes this is coaching. It is very apparent that the team (which WOJO has recruited by the way) needs coaching/guidance to compete with the upper echelon Big East teams, not just a manager who is there to keep their effort up.
(Think a head coach in the NBA).
    The recent DePaul game was an example of how far MU basketball has fallen. The level and type of play was appalling. It is given that any MU win is a cause for celebration, but in the overall history of the program it shows that MU is floundering without high level talent. Without the winning that uncoached talent can bring, the outlook for attracting high level talent looks grim.
    The recent NBA All-Star draft and upcoming All-Star game would appear to be the type of game WOJO is qualified to coach. The All-Star game will even have regular season teammates on opposing sides, let alone not having any drafted plays that any given team has run. WOJO's apparent excuses include that MU as a team makes bad decisions, cannot handle the ball well, cannot inbound the ball well, etc. It doesn't occur to him that it is his job to coach and/or scheme for the players he has recruited to be able to inbound the ball, advance it up court and then do something other than throw up a prayer at the end of a shot clock? Or is it his job to simply watch as his players make unforced turnovers at an alarming pace, or fail to actually have or run offensive schemes. (As has been alluded to, WOJO has spent over half of his MU career hoping Markus Howard is able to outscore our opponents. Now
it appears to be DJ Carton who wears that mantle, with lesser results.) WOJO is acting as if he has Duke level talent rather than coaching his own team.

[MuggsyB]

Don’t know Muggs.  My opinion is not well formulated lol.  We are not a physical or quick team...but I think it’s motion.  We don’t have a motion offense.  Our half court execution is very predictable and so I think is our inbounding.

My take is that there is no reason known to man that a player as quick as DJ shouldn't be able to spring free and get open.  I also think we are hampered by not having multiple players that can handle the ball which perhaps makes them hesitant to get the rock after an inbounds pass?   All I know is that of the many frustrating things I have seen this season this may be #1.  At bare minimum we should have a coaching staff that can figure out OOB plays as well as press breaking.

[We R Final Four]

It's not necessarily a bad move if you have time on the shotclock.  NBA teams do it all the time because they believe setting up the offense will lead to a better scoring chance.

The problem with this is that opposing teams have seen us resort to the ‘safety valve’ play and have either stolen the ball, drawn a foul, or cause and over and back.
One thing that should never happen is a foul on our own bound play.

[bilsu]

Have you seen Illinois inbounds play, Most, if not all the players start from out of bounds. It is pretty interesting and inventive.

I think one of the reasons MU has trouble inbounding the ball is there is no way for MU to replicate in practice the pressure a quick and long team can put on in a game.

The other thing is the players do not sharply break to get open to help the in bounder. Somewhat the same problem that creates turnovers during the game. I have been watching to try and figure out why we have so many turnovers. In comparing us to other teams it seems to me that the players without the ball do not do much to help the player with the ball out.

I seen more than one of Carton's passes get stolen, because the intended receiver does not move towards the ball, which allows the defender to jump in front of the receiver and steal the pass.

Of course I have seen plenty of just dumb passes.

[tower912]

My take is that there is no reason known to man that a player as quick as DJ shouldn't be able to spring free and get open.  I also think we are hampered by not having multiple players that can handle the ball which perhaps makes them hesitant to get the rock after an inbounds pass?   All I know is that of the many frustrating things I have seen this season this may be #1.  At bare minimum we should have a coaching staff that can figure out OOB plays as well as press breaking.

If DJ is on the floor, he is usually the one passing it in.   And nobody is that fast.

[MuggsyB]

If DJ is on the floor, he is usually the one passing it in.   And nobody is that fast.

Exactly.  Why would DJ inbound the ball with his quicks Tower?

[We R Final Four]

I think people are holding out hope for next season because arguably the three best offensive players (two freshman and a sophomore who only played half his freshman year) are returning.

But yeah I would be surprised if we were better.

I don’t believe DJ, Lewis and DG will all return.

[tower912]

Exactly.  Why would DJ inbound the ball with his quicks Tower?

Markus inbounded the ball, too.  Option A seems to be to inbound the ball to the big and then get it back via a handoff.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I don’t believe DJ, Lewis and DG will all return.

I think you are probably right.  I don't know anything, but with transfer rules how they are, I would think someone finds the grass greener.

[hawk]

I think Lewis and Carton will return.  Garcia is gone unless he decides to come back to be a lottery pick next year.  He has a big upside so I,m guessing middle of the 1st round this year.

[We R Final Four]

Have you seen Illinois inbounds play, Most, if not all the players start from out of bounds. It is pretty interesting and inventive.

I think you are referring to Ill press break where all five players line up at the baseline and run fly patterns, curls, stop and go, etc.
Muggsy is referring to OOB under our basket with the opportunity to score.

[We R Final Four]

I think Lewis and Carton will return.  Garcia is gone unless he decides to come back to be a lottery pick next year.  He has a big upside so I,m guessing middle of the 1st round this year.

Logical. If DG can gets 1st round $ I think he’s gone. I think DJ goes somewhere to work on his craft. I don’t know where that is, I just don’t think it is at MU next year.

[brewcity77]

If DJ leaves, he'll have to sit out. He might go pro, but if he stays in college, I'd be shocked if it wasn't at Marquette, even if the unthinkable happens & Wojo is gone.

[BallBoy]

I think there are two major problems on the inbounds on the defensive side. You have 1 player taking the ball out, three that start at half court one in the front court. The defense puts a defender on ball and three that sag off the hall court.

Ref hands the ball off to the inbounder and MU is slow to move. By the time the three get closer to the inbounder, 1-2 seconds have come off the clock and the inbounder starts to feel flustered and the only open player is moving toward the corner.

The corner itself isn’t a graveyard like in 3 grade ball. You see if frequently in all games. To me getting the ball inbounded is more important. Once the guard gets the ball usually Koby or Cain they freeze. This allows the defense to collapse on them. Once the defenders collapse MU has their head down and will also stop their dribble. Instead they need to move quickly which will either draw a block or like the Depaul game at the end split the defense and get to an open court.

I have also noticed that our player, whose defender is double teaming the ball, runs away from the ball they should stay in their spot because they are open. Instead they are moving towards the front court defender.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think Lewis and Carton will return.  Garcia is gone unless he decides to come back to be a lottery pick next year.  He has a big upside so I,m guessing middle of the 1st round this year.

I've seen no site listing Garcia anywhere near the second round this season, let alone the first round.

I'm fairly confident that Garcia and Lewis return. Carton it will depend on if he still has NBA dreams or not. I don't see Carton transferring.

We will lose 1 to 3 of the other players to transfer, but I think the big 3 all return.

[BallBoy]

It's coaching. We were very good at baseline out of bounds plays when Stan was here. Now we suck, and LMU is better than ever at them. Hardly seems like a coincidence. Same reason I'm skeptical we'll recapture our three point accuracy now that the guys taking the shots didn't work with Nelson, while Holy Cross has seen their 3PFG% rank improve by over 150 spots from Brett's year one to year two.

I disagree with this analysis. We have struggled on inbounds even when stan was here do a search of some variant of inbound, inbounding and you will find people calling this out as a problem. This isn’t new.

MU was a good 3pt shooting team because we had one of the most elite three point shooters of all time. We also had very good three point shooters like Rowsey, Sam and others. This year our three point shooters are marginal. Our best three point shooters were also on the teams you credit.

I also find it disingenuous if we throw praise on two assistant coaches when our teams were also mediocre but then this year only throw the blame at Wojo. If the assistants were the solution prior wouldn’t the new ones be the problem now? Either Assistants were good then and bad now or Wojo was the same.

[Knight Commission]

Crean had excellent inbound plays under the basket. 

[muwarrior69]

If DJ leaves, he'll have to sit out. He might go pro, but if he stays in college, I'd be shocked if it wasn't at Marquette, even if the unthinkable happens & Wojo is gone.

FIFY

[We R Final Four]

If DJ leaves, he'll have to sit out. He might go pro, but if he stays in college, I'd be shocked if it wasn't at Marquette, even if the unthinkable happens & Wojo is gone.

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I certainly don’t think he’s transferring to another college program. If he does play college ball next year it will be at MU.
I don’t think he is playing anymore college ball.

[Johnny B]

if any of them leave we will have wildly sad year next season

[CountryRoads]

Bump