Wakeup call for Buzz?

[ecompt]

avid, if you think DJ shoots 200 FTs a day you're delusional. There is no way in hell anyone older than 10 years old could shoot 200 FTs a day and be that bad.  And DJ hasn't always been average from the line..he has regressed, and badly.  Buzz says he spends ZERO time on free throws, that's it up to the players.

[avid1010]

That's an off-based assumption in my opinion.  Neither you or I have any clue as to how many free throws DJ shoots on a daily basis.  To say that no one who practices free throws to the tune of 200 a day could shoot as bad as James simply isn't true.

That being said.  Please tell me what you would like Buzz to take out of his practice schedule (his time to coach his players) in order for him to walk around and watch players shoot free throws.  I think I'd rather have Buzz coaching and players shooting free throws by themselves than waisting valuable practice time on something that can and is done during not contact times.

[ecompt]

Coaches having players shoot free throws has been part of every college and pro practice I ever covered in my years of covering basketball. Free throws are all confidence and repetition, and that's why coaches (or at least the ones I covered, which was 25 years ago) emphasized them.

[Pakuni]

Coaches having players shoot free throws has been part of every college and pro practice I ever covered in my years of covering basketball. Free throws are all confidence and repetition, and that's why coaches (or at least the ones I covered, which was 25 years ago) emphasized them.

The simple fact is this: despite the hue and cry from some about the lack of free throws during practice, there is no discernible difference in free throw shooting for this team as a whole between this season - in which free throws apparently are not a regular practice activity - and seasons in which it presumably was.
Currently they're shooting 70.8 percent from the line.
Last year they shot 70.6 percent. The year before that they shot 66.9 percent.
It would seem that the lack of free throws during practice has had no negative impact on the team's shooting.

I suppose you could - and perhaps have - argued that DJ has regressed because of the lack of free throws during practice. Could be. I can't prove that he hasn't. Then again, the same logic would lead us to deduce that Jerel McNeal (70.2 to 73.6), Wesley Matthews (79.0 to 83.4) and Lazar Hayward (77.3 to 80.6) all are better free-throw shooters because they don't shoot free throws in practice. Seems like a silly argument, but that's the logic at work.

The biggest fault I have with your argument, though, is that it assume that if players aren't practicing free throws during practice sessions, then they aren't being practiced at all. It seems that's a massive, and possible false, assumption. Guys can shoot free throws during warmups. They can shoot free throws during pre-game shootarounds. They can shoot free throws before practice. They can do it after practice. They can head to the gym in their spare time to toss up 100 shots.

[MUWarrior06]

The simple fact is this: despite the hue and cry from some about the lack of free throws during practice, there is no discernible difference in free throw shooting for this team as a whole between this season - in which free throws apparently are not a regular practice activity - and seasons in which it presumably was.
Currently they're shooting 70.8 percent from the line.
Last year they shot 70.6 percent. The year before that they shot 66.9 percent.
It would seem that the lack of free throws during practice has had no negative impact on the team's shooting.

I suppose you could - and perhaps have - argued that DJ has regressed because of the lack of free throws during practice. Could be. I can't prove that he hasn't. Then again, the same logic would lead us to deduce that Jerel McNeal (70.2 to 73.6), Wesley Matthews (79.0 to 83.4) and Lazar Hayward (77.3 to 80.6) all are better free-throw shooters because they don't shoot free throws in practice. Seems like a silly argument, but that's the logic at work.

The biggest fault I have with your argument, though, is that it assume that if players aren't practicing free throws during practice sessions, then they aren't being practiced at all. It seems that's a massive, and possible false, assumption. Guys can shoot free throws during warmups. They can shoot free throws during pre-game shootarounds. They can shoot free throws before practice. They can do it after practice. They can head to the gym in their spare time to toss up 100 shots.

+1,000,000,000,000,000

Wasn't it 2 weeks ago we're all praising Jerel for spending more time in the gym since he has only 1 class to worry about? Wouldn't you say probably the entire team has a light class schedule in the spring? So wouldn't you think they'd spend lots of time in the gym practicing by themselves? They aren't going to the Rec Center and playing in pick up games, they're working on what they need to. I am sure they work on FT. To assume because Buzz doesn't spend some of his precious hours on FT that the entire team doesn't practice themselves is completely ridiculous. In fact, if they didn't practice by themselves then this whole "senior leadership" thing would have to be questioned. I would think these seniors would set an example if not make the younger guys shoot free throws and practice on other weak parts of their game.

rocky's edit: debate with people all you want, but save the name calling for kids under 6.

[ecompt]

that moron, MUWarriors, has covered more sporting events for major newspapers in his life than you have watched.

[Pakuni]

+1,000,000,000,000,000

Well said. Ecompt is clearly a moron.

Thanks for the +1,000,000,000,000,000, but ecompt is most definitely not a moron. I think he's wrong on this particular point, but he knows his stuff.

[MUWarrior06]

Thanks for the +1,000,000,000,000,000, but ecompt is most definitely not a moron. I think he's wrong on this particular point, but he knows his stuff.

It's one thing to cover a substantial number of sporting events (games), but we're talking about practice here, not the game. [/iverson]

Just because I have taken many many craps my entire life does not make me an expert as to how they make the toilet. Nor does watching a number of games and reporting on them make anyone else an expert on how to run practices.

I'm actually kind of surprised that someone with such credentials would fail to see the reality in this. Basketball players have so much time on their hands to commit to the gym. In practice they have to work on so many other things- game plan, plays, defenses for a certain offense, etc. To spend what, 50 minutes (100 free throws, 30 seconds a free throw) per practice to shoot free throws is a huge waste of time. That's up to the players to organize and show their own commitment to excellence by committing extra time in the gym.

You think Jerel McNeal got that sweet shot from practice with TC and Buzz? No. He got it from hours and hours in the gym.

For someone who knows their stuff and has covered so many sport events, you would think they would be familiar with the concept of practice

[Big Papi]

Thanks for the +1,000,000,000,000,000, but ecompt is most definitely not a moron. I think he's wrong on this particular point, but he knows his stuff.

Ecompt is definitely not a moron but the free throw shooting comment is a dumb statement to make especially for someone who has suppossedly covered more sporting events, practices and games than everyone at MUScoop combined.  I could really understand the comment if DJ had the best free throw percentage on the team  at 45% but not for a team that is overall fairly good.

BTW, in Big East games, Hayward and Matthews are in the top 10 FT% and Butler and McNeal are in the top 32 of all Big East players.  Oh and if you go through the top 35 free throw shooters, the only other team with 4 players in the top 35 is UConn.  I believe this stats take into account yesterdays games as it has Hayward having played 23 games.

Big East Leaders - Free Throw Percentage
Rank Value Player Yr Pos Ht Wt Games Team
1 89.2 Alex Ruoff Sr G 6-6 220 9 West Virginia
2 88.0 Kyle McAlarney Sr G 6-0 195 10 Notre Dame
3 87.9 Sharaud Curry Jr G 5-10 170 10 Providence
4 86.4 Scottie Reynolds Jr G 6-2 190 9 Villanova
5 85.5 Luke Harangody Jr F 6-8 255 10 Notre Dame
6 85.3 Lazar Hayward Jr F 6-6 225 10 Marquette
7 83.9 Mike Williams Jr F 6-7 240 10 Cincinnati
8 83.3 Mike Rosario Fr G 6-3 180 10 Rutgers
9 82.3 Wesley Matthews Sr G 6-5 215 10 Marquette
10 81.29 Eric Devendorf Jr G 6-4 180 10 Syracuse
10 81.29 Eugene Harvey Jr G 6-0 165 9 Seton Hall
12 80.8 Deonta Vaughn Jr G 6-1 195 10 Cincinnati
13 80.6 Austin Freeman So G 6-4 230 10 Georgetown
14 78.9 Gregory Echenique Fr F 6-9 260 10 Rutgers
15 78.8 Jonny Flynn So G 6-0 185 10 Syracuse
16 78.6 D.J. Kennedy So G-F 6-6 210 10 St. John's
17 78.3 Brad Wanamaker So G 6-4 200 9 Pittsburgh
18 74.5 DaJuan Summers Jr F 6-8 236 10 Georgetown
19 74.4 Dar Tucker So F 6-5 215 9 DePaul
20 74.1 Paul Harris Jr F 6-4 230 9 Syracuse
20 74.1 Jeremy Hazell So G 6-5 185 9 Seton Hall
22 73.9 Weyinmi Efejuku Sr G 6-5 210 10 Providence
23 73.5 Samardo Samuels Fr F 6-9 260 9 Louisville
24 72.7 Jimmy Butler So G 6-6 215 10 Marquette
25 71.9 Chris Wright So G 6-1 201 10 Georgetown
26 71.4 Da'Sean Butler Jr F 6-7 225 9 West Virginia
27 71.2 Jeff Adrien Sr F 6-7 243 11 Connecticut
28 70.9 Jerome Dyson Jr G 6-4 190 11 Connecticut
29 70.6 Dominique Jones So G 6-4 210 10 South Florida
29 70.6 Corey Fisher So G 6-1 200 9 Villanova
31 70.5 Dante Cunningham Sr F 6-8 230 9 Villanova
32 70.4 Jerel McNeal Sr G 6-3 200 10 Marquette
33 69.69 A.J. Price Sr G 6-2 181 11 Connecticut
34 68.79 Kemba Walker Fr G 6-1 172 11 Connecticut
35 65.7 Paris Horne So G-F 6-3 185 10 St. John's


http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/ft_pct?games=2&conf=big-east&season=2008-2009

[MR.HAYWARD]

I will say this I have been to dozens of college practices over the years and hundreds of HS practices.  My experience is apparenly different than ecompts.  I have seen teams shoot FT's before and after practices and occasionally during practices as part of drills and challenges to run etc.  But I have never seen a practice where a team took say 15 minutes and split up on the 6-8 hoops and shot FT's.  Have never seen it I am also associated with an AAU program that has put dozens of players in major D1 ball and have never seen them practice them.  We practice shooting all the time, use the gun machine, etc.  Now kids are practiceing them befoe and after practice all the time.  shooting thme to dictate suicides, etc.  But never has practice time been allocated to FT's in the hundreds of College, HS, or AAu practices that I have participated in or observed.  Not denying what ecompt has seen just saying my experiences do not reflect his. 

[ecompt]

I can't believe the controversy here. I express an opinion that perhaps Buzz should do what virtually every college coach does and I'm called a moron. I attended a few hundred of Al's practices at the Old Gym; while covering the Big East for the New York Daily News I witnessed probably 100 St. John's practices, as well as practices by UConn, Nova, BC, Syracuse and Pitt. I would say at about 90 percent of them free throws were given about 15 minutes. Am I an expert? Nope. I'm wrong as often as I am right, and a lot of you guys probably know a load more than I do. But can I ask one question: Why was Buzz's statement so newsworthy? When we equated free throws to riding bikes, why did anyone think it was something out of the ordinary?

[avid1010]

So you are saying it is essential that Buzz be present when players are shooting free throws?  I guess I'd rather have Buzz coaching offense, defense and his game plan for the next game with the limited amount of time he has with his players than walking around the gym as they shoot free throws.

Who knows what Buzz and staff have their players do outside of practice in relation to free throw shooting, but I'd argue that a man making the kind of money he makes and spending the kind of time he spends has better things to do than watch players shoot free throws. 

I've never heard a coach take credit for or the blame for poor free throw shooting...that's on the player.

[g0ldmember42]

coaches care about their players making free throws, but they also have to use the time with the whole team assembled wisely. it's up to the students to find the time to be practicing from the charity stripe..... a certain phenomenal shooter from 2002-2006 that currently plays for the Clippers used to shoot a ton of free throws late at night, whether in the old gym or the Al and Tommy certainly wasn't rebounding for him. This really wouldn't even be an issue if we had made 2 more free throws last night, so no need to harp on it now, IMHO.

[legacy]

People have been citing our rank in terms of free throw shooting and our team averages.  I think these numbers overstate our individual free throw proficiency, simply because we have a guard dominated offense.  A small fraction of our free throws are taken by bigs (i.e., Burke).  This compositional effect gives us an advantage over other teams, even if we had equal shooting percentages at every position.

That being said, I disagree with the argument in this post, and I do think Marquette is a fairly good free throw shooting team.

[ecompt]

avid: I guess you never spoke to Rollie Massimino, whose teams were annually among the best in FT shooting back in the 1980s, and how he stressed the importance of practicing FTs. You ignored my question: If Buzz's statement wasn't out of the ordinary, why was it newsworthy?
Look, at this point it doesn't matter. We don't know how many free throws DJ shoots, or if he shoots at all. All we know is that there will likely be an NCAA game when our season will be on the line, he's shooting a 1-and-1 with us up or down by one, and everyone on this board will be crapping his pants. I know I will.

[ecompt]

   Google Buzz Williams and free throws and here's the first thing that comes up.



Buzz Williams, Marquette’s head coach, has stated that he doesn’t make his squad practice free throws.

    “Do you practice riding your bike?” Williams asked. “Those kids have grown up playing ball their whole life. You step to the line and you make free throws, and your shot doesn’t change. Just like when you’re riding a bike, it doesn’t change no matter how long it’s been since you rode a bike.

    “But your mind needs to be right in order to make free throws … No, we don’t shoot free throws (in practice). Step to the line, shoot to make, be mentally tough enough to make them.”

That seems a little off.  Given that only two of their guys shoot over 80% — Wesley Matthews (82.5%) and Lazar Hayward (80.6%) — you’d think Williams would have them practice their free throws.
9.8 of their 30 free throw attempts per game are thrown up by people that shooting lower than 70% from the line.  Those six guys are shooting a combined 50% so if one of them are fouled during crunch time, it’s essentially a coin toss.

Repetition matters.  If I were Williams, I would allocate at least one segment of each practice to shooting free throws.

[NavinRJohnson]

   Google Buzz Williams and free throws and here's the first thing that comes up.



9.8 of their 30 free throw attempts per game are thrown up by people that shooting lower than 70% from the line.  Those six guys are shooting a combined 50% so if one of them are fouled during crunch time, it’s essentially a coin toss.

I'd be willing to bet you could say that about almost every team. But, even if that is not the case, lets looks who we are primarily talking about here...James, Burke, McNeal, and to a lesser extent Butler. McNeal is about 74% on the year...appreciably better than the last coule years, and essentially equal to host first year, so we can certainly throw him out right off the bat. In fact he would be counter to the argument that they need to spend time practicing. Same goes for Butler really who is 73% from the line.

That leave James and Burke. James has seen his percentage go down this season for sure, but he has been about 65% since he got here. He has had the same crappy fall away motion the entire time. To suggest that not practicing this year is the reason he doesn't make more is silly. Two coaching staffs have had 4 years to try to correct his form, and it hasn't happened. That being the case, shooting a couple hundred FT's in practice is liley to only produce the result of him missing half of those.

Finally Dwight Burke...Shooting 50% from the line as he did last year. Clearly no ill-effects from not practicing FT's. Do you really think spending time in practice will make a 70% shooter out of Dwight?

So, given all of the above...Buzz is absolutely right. Fact is, MU currently has its highest FT% as a team since 05-06 when Novak was here.

Someone please explain to me again, how spending valuable practice time on FT's would be worthwhile. If you think they are going to become appreciably better FT shooters, you might as well practice trying to make guys taller because you are likley to get the same results.

[AZWarrior]

I would expect that a low free throw percentage is analogous to a slice in golf or a poor first-serve percentage in tennis.  It's the result of poor form or a break-down in form.  The player needs coaching from a second party to observe the form, identify the breakdown and take steps to alter and improve the free-throw form (tennis serve /  golf swing).  This happens during "practice".  The player then works outside of practice to repeat the proper form and get the muscle-memory thing working to grove the newly learned, proper form.

So I think its a blend of "practice" activity and outside of practice activity.

[ecompt]

Moron? Simple? Usually I only get that kind of abuse at home. See ya.

[avid1010]

avid: I guess you never spoke to Rollie Massimino, whose teams were annually among the best in FT shooting back in the 1980s, and how he stressed the importance of practicing FTs. You ignored my question: If Buzz's statement wasn't out of the ordinary, why was it newsworthy?
Look, at this point it doesn't matter. We don't know how many free throws DJ shoots, or if he shoots at all. All we know is that there will likely be an NCAA game when our season will be on the line, he's shooting a 1-and-1 with us up or down by one, and everyone on this board will be crapping his pants. I know I will.

I surely don't approve of MU's FT shooting, but I didn't approve of it under TC either (with this group of players).  What I'm saying is FT shooting is on the players and not the coach.  Buzz's quote was newsworthy because he was asked of his plan to deal with their poor FT shooting and he answered the question.  He's never said he doesn't require his players to practice FT's during non-contact hours.  You stated you'd like to see every player shoot 200 FT's a practice...so your proposal is to have MU spend over a half hour of practice time shooting free throws each day???  I don't believe Rollie Massimino watched 30+ minutes of FT's a day.  If you want DJ to practice FT's during non-practice times I'd agree, but like you said, we have no clue if that's happening.  If we have a point guard with NBA aspirations who's struggling from the FT line, but doesn't have the brains to practice them in his spare time we have bigger problems than FT shooting!

[Daniel]

Like you said, if someone can't shoot free throws and doesn't practice incessantly on their own, there is a bigger problem.  If we get to the linbe more than otehr teams, the incentive is HIGH to drain them.  A couple of extra FTs would have come in pretty handy against USF.  And we will need as many as possible from this point forward.  So, I agree you can't take limited team time to practice FTs, but what collegiate athelete would not want to improve their game, contribute to the team's succeess and do that on their own time when they need to?

[mviale]

You know what this this thread has missed? Our players dont know the importance of the bounce pass! They should be doing 200-300 bounce pass drills followed by 200-300 free throws. 

[warrior_jr]

Check the box score: Jerel is the only person on the team who took more than 3 FT's and is responsible for about half of the missed FT's at 6-12  (team: 10-23).  Jerel is a 70% FT shooter, #32 in the Big East (thank you mufanatic), which means that you can chalk the FTs up to a bad night at the line for Jerel.

And can we put a lid on the hostility?  Its just a game.  Chill guys.

[avid1010]

Check the box score: Jerel is the only person on the team who took more than 3 FT's and is responsible for about half of the missed FT's at 6-12  (team: 10-23).  Jerel is a 70% FT shooter, #32 in the Big East (thank you mufanatic), which means that you can chalk the FTs up to a bad night at the line for Jerel.

And can we put a lid on the hostility?  Its just a game.  Chill guys.

You mean data was manipulated to push personal agendas?!?!

[bilsu]

2005-06 season
Loss at Pittsburg 5-12 41.7%
2006-07 season
Loss at home to Syracuse 6-15 40.0%
2007-08 season
Win at home IPFW 12-23 52.2%

Every year we have a bad free throw shooting game.