Why doesn't Wisconsin have an NHL team?

[TomW1365]

A few buddies and I were talking the other day about how fun it was to experience the Blackhawks resurgence and how much we missed having a team to root for in a great NHL market in Chicago.  

With that said, we were wondering why the NHL seems to have so many teams in warm weather climates and have avoided or overlooked obvious hockey markets like Wisconsin?  No offence to the Admirals as they seem like a well liked and well run organization, but I'm surprised that the NHL has overlooked an obvious place to have a team.  I don't recall much public demand for a NHL team while I lived in Milwaukee.  Is it worth lobbying for a team named the Green Bay Slackers?   

Does anyone have any insight on this?

[GGGG]

There isn't a team there because when the BC was built, William Wirtz in Chicago managed to convince the NHL that Milwaukee was part of the Blackhawk's territory.  But in retrospect it was probably a good thing.  I'm not convinced that if a team had been placed in Milwaukee, instead of Tampa or Ottawa which at the time were the places they eventually placed teams, that it would still be in Milwaukee today.  I'm just glad that the city's been able to hold onto the Bucks.

[MU B2002]

Answer: $$$$

And does Wisconsin really have a deep rooted hockey history?  Other than UW?  (Not trying to be an ass, just asking.)

[Skatastrophy]

This is really a Superbar topic.

While the Pettit family built the Bradley Center for the purpose of luring an NHL team here, Milwaukee withdrew their bid for an NHL team in October of 1990 "saying the venture was economically unsound and would produce a non-competitive team."

February of 1990 - Trying to lure a team to MKE
February of 1990 - NHL's interest in MKE guaged as solid

October of 1990 - Investors withdraw their bid for an NHL team in MKE

[TomW1365]

This is really a Superbar topic.

While the Pettit family built the Bradley Center for the purpose of luring an NHL team here, Milwaukee withdrew their bid for an NHL team in October of 1990 "saying the venture was economically unsound and would produce a non-competitive team."

February of 1990 - Trying to lure a team to MKE
February of 1990 - NHL's interest in MKE guaged as solid

October of 1990 - Investors withdraw their bid for an NHL team in MKE

I'm impressed with your prompt and accurate response.  Do you work for The Journal Setinal?  This MUScoop site has some people w/ extensive knowledge on many subjects!

[Skatastrophy]

I'm impressed with your prompt and accurate response.  Do you work for The Journal Setinal?  This MUScoop site has some people w/ extensive knowledge on many subjects!

No, I'm just a computer professional with some pretty good google-fu.

[rocky_warrior]

This MUScoop site has some people w/ extensive knowledge on many subjects!

Would you expect anything less from a 3000 strong group of MU alums, students, and fans?   

[Hards Alumni]

I never understood either.  There are several semi-pro and the major college team in the state already, and most games are decently attended.

NHL would be great at the BC.  I live in Madison, and would probably sign up for a 10 pack of tickets (similar to what I do for the Brewers) in a heartbeat.

I am not even an avid NHL fan, but having a team to root for would turn me into one... plus its something to root for when the Bucks season is over mid February. :-D

[chapman]

Wisconsin already has the Red Wings.  Good enough for me; I wouldn't change my allegiance if they put a team in Milwaukee. 

[TomW1365]

Wisconsin already has the Red Wings.  Good enough for me; I wouldn't change my allegiance if they put a team in Milwaukee. 

Wisconsin has the Red Wings?!?  I don't have any friend in WI that like the Red Wings!  I never thought that there were many Red Wing fans in WI.

[MilWarrior]

That's because there aren't any.

[Hards Alumni]

<---- Casual Red Wings fan, and Wisconsin native.

can't cheer for any team from poopy Illinois.

[Chili]

Wisconsin has the Red Wings?!?  I don't have any friend in WI that like the Red Wings!  I never thought that there were many Red Wing fans in WI.

I too and from WI and a Wings fan. Go to BBC during hockey season and you will see plenty.

[reinko]

Wisconsin already has the Red Wings.  Good enough for me; I wouldn't change my allegiance if they put a team in Milwaukee. 

Lemme guess, you cheer for the Cowboys and Lakers too?

[MU B2002]

...

[Chili]

Lemme guess, you cheer for the Cowboys and Lakers too?

Paper man argument. Wisconsin has a football, basketball and baseball team in it. Who are hockey fans supposed to root for? I guess when I watching hockey back in the early 90s when the Northstars moved from MN I should have been a Hawks fan? Sorry, wasn't going to happen. Next closest team was the Wings - and they were on Sports Channel America a lot then too. It made things easy.

 

[reinko]

Next closest team was the Wings.  It made things easy.

False.

St. Louis is the same distance from MKE as Detroit is.

[Chili]

False.

St. Louis is the same distance from MKE as Detroit is.

Your argument still holds about as much water as a sieve. Because you know there are a lot of 13 year olds who know that. Just why there are Cubs and Braves fan's all over the country (TBS & WGN) - the Wings were on SCA a lot when I was a kid. Makes things easy.

[Skatastrophy]

Your argument still holds about as much water as a sieve. Because you know there are a lot of 13 year olds who know that. Just why there are Cubs and Braves fan's all over the country (TBS & WGN) - the Wings were on SCA a lot when I was a kid. Makes things easy.

Being a fan of the Russian Five is un-American.  Do you root for Russia during the Olympics then too?

 

[reinko]

Your argument still holds about as much water as a sieve. Because you know there are a lot of 13 year olds who know that. Just why there are Cubs and Braves fan's all over the country (TBS & WGN) - the Wings were on SCA a lot when I was a kid. Makes things easy.

Ok, so it's not proximity, I'm glad we have that cleared up.  I'll accept your TV argument, but don't get defensive when someone calls you out for being a fan of the arguably most storied franchise in a professional league when you have no connection to that team accept that they were on TV once a week during your formative years.  

But you have to admit, the Red Wings were on TV because they were so popular and big market (like the Yankees, Cowboys, Cubs, and Braves), so in actuality you got duped in by this machine.  

Go Bruins!  (I moved to Boston 7 years ago from MKE and adopted them.)    And yes, I recognize the hypocrisy.

[Chili]

Being a fan of the Russian Five is un-American.  Do you root for Russia during the Olympics then too?

 

Should I root for team Canada like Pittsburgh? Also, it be more like rooting for Sweden not Russia since Detroit only has one Russian on the team.

[Chili]

Go Bruins!  (I moved to Boston 7 years ago from MKE and adopted them.)    And yes, I recognize the hypocrisy.

If I ever move to a city with a hockey team I could easily see switching allegiances for hockey only  - since I really never had the full team fandom experience growing up. But I could never do it for basketball, baseball or football.

[Golden Avalanche]

If I ever move to a city with a hockey team I could easily see switching allegiances for hockey only  - since I really never had the full team fandom experience growing up. But I could never do it for basketball, baseball or football.

Sorry to pile on but isn't that the exact definition of a bandwagon fan? Jump on the fan wagon when it's convenient and jump off when it's not so much fun? Perhaps that's what some people are getting at in this thread -- don't say there's no need for an NHL team in Wisconsin since you have the Red Wings if, in reality, you are not much more then a bandwagon fan.

Also, out of curiosity, what do you mean by this: "full team fandom experience"? I'm guessing it only has to do with not having ever attended a game at Joe Louis Arena.

[Hards Alumni]

Sorry to pile on but isn't that the exact definition of a bandwagon fan? Jump on the fan wagon when it's convenient and jump off when it's not so much fun? Perhaps that's what some people are getting at in this thread -- don't say there's no need for an NHL team in Wisconsin since you have the Red Wings if, in reality, you are not much more then a bandwagon fan.

Also, out of curiosity, what do you mean by this: "full team fandom experience"? I'm guessing it only has to do with not having ever attended a game at Joe Louis Arena.

no that isn't the definition of a bandwagon fan.  A bandwagon fan only watches when "their" team is good, or is quick to switch to a good team when the team they used to cheer for stinks.

I completely back the NHL forming a team in Wisconsin, but will continue to cheer for the Wings until they have one.

[Chili]

Sorry to pile on but isn't that the exact definition of a bandwagon fan? Jump on the fan wagon when it's convenient and jump off when it's not so much fun? Perhaps that's what some people are getting at in this thread -- don't say there's no need for an NHL team in Wisconsin since you have the Red Wings if, in reality, you are not much more then a bandwagon fan.

Also, out of curiosity, what do you mean by this: "full team fandom experience"? I'm guessing it only has to do with not having ever attended a game at Joe Louis Arena.

Exactly. I grew up going to Brewers, Bucks and Packers games with my family and friends. I could watch them on Channel 24 every night, though sometimes it was Channel 18. I also remember watching them as kid growing up as long as I can remember.

But with the wings, I am much more of a casual Wings fan. I became interested in hockey, Wings were on TV a lot so I said "hey, why not?"

I haven't moved to a city with a team so I continue to root for them. But, if I had a team I could watch - even the Blackhawks - I might switch since I don't have the same vested interest.

A bandwagon fan is someone who only roots for a team that wins by the way. Considering I have been a Brewers, Bucks and Packers fan for over 25 years now - I would hardly call myself a bandwagon fan.

[Ari Gold]

I was/am a fan of the Red Wings only because of NHL 96 -with Stevie Y on the cover-

Tell me Get ready for this in MIDI wasn't amazing. I am tearing up because I miss those days

[Golden Avalanche]

Boo

[TomW1365]

I find it interesting no one has said: "Screw the NHL!  I love the Admirals!"   

[Skatastrophy]

I find it interesting no one has said: "Screw the NHL!  I love the Admirals!"   

The Admirals are a lot of fun to go watch, and it's affordable.  I'm always surprised how few people are at their games.

[Ahoya06]

I'll vouch for the Admirals too. I had a half-season package back in 2000 and 2001 and it was a blast. Don't get to as many games as I'd like these days, but they're lots of fun, especially with no NHL team here.

FYI- Also born and raised in NYC, and am a devoted Rangers fan. I love that when you get MLB Extra Innings, the channels overlap with NHL, so I get to watch the beginning and end of the Rangers season!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sorry to pile on but isn't that the exact definition of a bandwagon fan? Jump on the fan wagon when it's convenient and jump off when it's not so much fun? Perhaps that's what some people are getting at in this thread -- don't say there's no need for an NHL team in Wisconsin since you have the Red Wings if, in reality, you are not much more then a bandwagon fan.

Also, out of curiosity, what do you mean by this: "full team fandom experience"? I'm guessing it only has to do with not having ever attended a game at Joe Louis Arena.

I thought I would chime in.


People become fans of teams for all kinds of reasons.  Chili's reasons are the as mine in large respect.  Let's not forget that teams that may be good now, weren't back then....or vice versa.  At age 6, I became a Cowboys fan because I'm originally from Texas and they trained in my hometown of Thousand Oaks, CA when I was a kid.  People love to throw the bandwagon thing out but I have to laugh...the Boys have sucked for a decade...no playoff wins.  Exactly what kind of bandwagon are we getting on?

I'm also an Angels fan, and they sucked hard for decades until this decade.

I grew up a Lakers fan, but now I can't stand them.  When I was a kid, they were a classier organization with classier players and management.  Those things changed so I don't give them any love or money at this point.

Grew up a LA Kings fan, but when the Ducks were "born" I began to work for them soon after.  When a team is paying your mortgage, you become a fan pretty quick.

 

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Name a classier franchise than the Lakers. Where people want to play for the minimum at the end of a great career because they want a chance to win a ring. You're not the only one who knows inside information. class and the NBA aren't usually found in the same sentence but the Lakers stand out above the rest for their accomplishments.
A little OC jealousy perhaps?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Name a classier franchise than the Lakers. Where people want to play for the minimum at the end of a great career because they want a chance to win a ring. You're not the only one who knows inside information. class and the NBA aren't usually found in the same sentence but the Lakers stand out above the rest for their accomplishments.
A little OC jealousy perhaps?

LOL.  If I gave a crap about the NBA, maybe.  But there is no jealousy my friend, absolutely none. 

A classier franchise than the Lakers?  I can think of dozens.  Or are you saying a classier NBA franchise than the Lakers?  That's quite different.  Having spent more than a decade in the industry working for some of these teams and dealing with them daily, I can tell you there are many franchises more classy than the Lakers.  As far as NBA franchises, well I would put them near the top but I wouldn't rank any NBA franchise in the top 10 overall for sports.


I'm sure glad Odom is planning on sticking around for that league minimum.      And yes, with Kobe and Artest on the team, class surely rings loudly.  And Walton.....oh the stories that would "blow" you out of the water.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

After the Magic Johnson era nothing would surprise me.
I have been around the NBA since its inception, my father was instrumental in bringing it to Chicago;the first franchise not the current one. I personally know several NBA presidents and they don't employ Altar Boys.
I used to have Red Wings hang out at my house and knew many NFL players and would have to say that hockey players were probably the best behaved. Been a while, though, I hope they still are as polite as the ones I knew

[ChicosBailBonds]

After the Magic Johnson era nothing would surprise me.
I have been around the NBA since its inception, my father was instrumental in bringing it to Chicago;the first franchise not the current one. I personally know several NBA presidents and they don't employ Altar Boys.
I used to have Red Wings hang out at my house and knew many NFL players and would have to say that hockey players were probably the best behaved. Been a while, though, I hope they still are as polite as the ones I knew

We concur, hockey players are the best in my book as well.  Usually well grounded, good people, haven't had the silver spoon God treatment growing up as much as others.  Plus the money is so much different.  I've also personally had wonderful relationships wtih MLB players....most are fantastic, but when there are that many players out there the chances of having a bad egg or two is increased due to sheer volume.  The NBA....ugh.  To this day I don't know why they had the All-Star game in Vegas and then to be stupid enough to follow it up and have it in New Orleans.  Insane, but they were interesting trips to attend I can tell you that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We concur, hockey players are the best in my book as well.  Usually well grounded, good people, haven't had the silver spoon God treatment growing up as much as others.  Plus the money is so much different.  I've also personally had wonderful relationships wtih MLB players....most are fantastic, but when there are that many players out there the chances of having a bad egg or two is increased due to sheer volume.  The NBA....ugh.  To this day I don't know why they had the All-Star game in Vegas and then to be stupid enough to follow it up and have it in New Orleans.  Insane, but they were interesting trips to attend I can tell you that.

Hmmm...

This brings up a good point:

Do the minor league systems in both Hockey and Baseball ground the players a little bit? I mean, the top picks still make a lot of money, and they are fast tracked to the big club...

But, most players spend at least 2-4 years riding around on a bus from small stadium/arena to small stadium/arean.

Is it this experience that teaches them humility and how to appreciate the fame and $ they eventually earn when they are a professional playing for a major franchise?

[Skatastrophy]

Hmmm...

This brings up a good point:

Do the minor league systems in both Hockey and Baseball ground the players a little bit? I mean, the top picks still make a lot of money, and they are fast tracked to the big club...

But, most players spend at least 2-4 years riding around on a bus from small stadium/arena to small stadium/arean.

Is it this experience that teaches them humility and how to appreciate the fame and $ they eventually earn when they are a professional playing for a major franchise?

Are you trying to say that when you have BJs on-demand as a star on your college basketball or football team it doesn't teach you humility?  I don't think I'm following you here.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Are you trying to say that when you have BJs on-demand as a star on your college basketball or football team it doesn't teach you humility?  I don't think I'm following you here.

HA. You're probably right about the BJers. And yea, that's kinda what I'm saying.

Do the minor leagues (in both hockey and baseball) help those leagues develop good players and decent people? Obviously there are still some knuckleheads in both hockey and baseball, but the percentages are probably less than the NBA.

Does working your way up in the minor leagues (in hockey and baseball) help ground the players and teach them to be more mature and professional? Again, there are obvious exceptions to this, but I'm just talking overall.

This is all anecdotal, and I don't have any evidence to support any of this... just thinking out loud.

Why does the NBA tend to have more troubled stars? Is it the culture of the league? Background of the players? Too much $ too young?

[ChicosBailBonds]

HA. You're probably right about the BJers. And yea, that's kinda what I'm saying.

Do the minor leagues (in both hockey and baseball) help those leagues develop good players and decent people? Obviously there are still some knuckleheads in both hockey and baseball, but the percentages are probably less than the NBA.

Does working your way up in the minor leagues (in hockey and baseball) help ground the players and teach them to be more mature and professional? Again, there are obvious exceptions to this, but I'm just talking overall.

This is all anecdotal, and I don't have any evidence to support any of this... just thinking out loud.

Why does the NBA tend to have more troubled stars? Is it the culture of the league? Background of the players? Too much $ too young?

It's a combination of what you are saying along with where the players come from.  Baseball and hockey players, many of them at least, come from the sub burbs and often rural areas.  I'm sure someone will slap me as some kind of racist or whatever for making that comment, but that's reality.  The guys I knew on the Angels were mostly like this, or they came from poor countries in the Dominican and elsewhere that forced them to absolutely work their tails off to make it.

Hoops has a bit of a different edge to it growing up as we all know.  Different scene, different culture, many urban kids surrounded by a totally different way of life.  Without painting too broad a brush, not all of them come from solid homes or the best influences (some do, of course).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It's a combination of what you are saying along with where the players come from.  Baseball and hockey players, many of them at least, come from the sub burbs and often rural areas.  I'm sure someone will slap me as some kind of racist or whatever for making that comment, but that's reality.  The guys I knew on the Angels were mostly like this, or they came from poor countries in the Dominican and elsewhere that forced them to absolutely work their tails off to make it.

Hoops has a bit of a different edge to it growing up as we all know.  Different scene, different culture, many urban kids surrounded by a totally different way of life.  Without painting too broad a brush, not all of them come from solid homes or the best influences (some do, of course).

I think there is some merit to what you are saying.

But, what is the difference between a poor kid from the slums of San Juan who makes it big in baseball vs a poor kid from Miami/LA/Chicago/etc. who makes it big in basketball?

I'm not exactly up to date on my San Juan demographics or politics, but I can't imagine the inner city is much nicer than the major American cities.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I don't really know the answer to any of the questions we're posing.

[Chili]

I think there is some merit to what you are saying.

But, what is the difference between a poor kid from the slums of San Juan who makes it big in baseball vs a poor kid from Miami/LA/Chicago/etc. who makes it big in basketball?

I'm not exactly up to date on my San Juan demographics or politics, but I can't imagine the inner city is much nicer than the major American cities.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I don't really know the answer to any of the questions we're posing.

I think it has more to do with the psychological upbringing than the socioeconomic ones.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think it has more to do with the psychological upbringing than the socioeconomic ones.

Interesting, so basketball players (on the whole) have a poorer psychological upbringing than baseball or hockey players?

I'm not sure I follow...

Does basketball somehow damage them mentally?


For clarification, I'm not sure I understand how we can say being a parent of a basketball player makes them worse at parenting.

I think I'm missing something, Chili.

[Hards Alumni]

you missed the racism.

wait for it... wait for it...

[reinko]

I would also think kids that grow up in the US also have influences (friends and family), who they themselves may have made bad life decisions.  The poor kid from the DR who immgrated to the US has no such, or less of those influences.

[chapman]

Lemme guess, you cheer for the Cowboys and Lakers too?

Go north of Green Bay.  You're raised to take up the Red Wings once Packer season is over, and there are probably just as many Michigan football fans as Wisconsin fans.  There's this place called da YooPee up der.  I grew up within biking distance of Michigan, and they air FSN Wisconsin as well as FSN Detroit, so northeast Wisconsin gets to watch Red Wings games all year long.

[Chili]

Interesting, so basketball players (on the whole) have a poorer psychological upbringing than baseball or hockey players?

I'm not sure I follow...

Does basketball somehow damage them mentally?


For clarification, I'm not sure I understand how we can say being a parent of a basketball player makes them worse at parenting.

I think I'm missing something, Chili.

I am referring to the overreaching culture differences between different areas. You are looking on a very micro level. Look at more macro and as a segmentation of an area. Just like how people advertise to people differently in different areas for the same product - not everyone has the same upbringings, but on a macro scale - birds of a feather often flock together.