Can't we just get to the heart of the matter. What is the RIGHT THING TO DO?

[mr.MUskie]

The thing I keep having a problem with is...

Didn't Buzz say that one of our players is going prep, and he knows who he is?

Yet DJ...

May not be going prep, could go to another school.
Hoped/didn't think he was going prep, but was going to MU.

I don't recall Buzz qualifying it with a maybe, but maybe my memory is going.  So if this was the plan all along, why didn't someone tell DJ that it was a sure thing that he wouldn't be on the MU court this year?

[Norm]

OK, that's your opinion.  It can be done that way and was done that way (according to the IWB post on the other message board).  

If a 17 year-old-kid + a gaggle of advisers agree to a situation where the kid gets a scholarship if the team doesn't find anyone better and gets released if they do . . . I don't have a problem with that.  Apparently you do.  

Yep, I do. The coach should not have offered the scholarship if that was the case. It's not fair to the student athlete, makes a mockery of the LOI and it can cause damage to the coach's reputation when it comes to future recruits.

[mugrad2006]

In your world, there is only one type of NLI . . . an absolute, binding, black/white NLI.  If IWB's story is to be believed, there are shades of NLIs (some absolute, binding, black/white and some that are contingent on other factors beyond the student's control).  

You're trying to take what happened and jam it into your world where there are only absolute, binding, black/white NLIs.  That's not reality.  

2nd paragraph: There are plausible explanations.  He hoped against hope that Buzz wouldn't find anyone for "his" scholarship and he'd get to come here.  He was able to walk around for months and say he had a BE offer.  The recruiting process is a difficult time for athletes (being pressured) and signing an NLI ends that.    

From the NLI website

ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES
For additional information regarding the NLI program, visit the NLI Web site:  

ANNUAL INSTITUTIONAL COMMITMENT: Each NLI member institution is required to file with its conference office on an annual basis a copy of the NLI Institutional Commitment form. The document must be signed and dated by the institution's director of athletics prior to submission to the conference office.

DELIVERY OF THE NLI: Per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7, any in-person, off-campus contact made with a prospective student-athlete for the purposes of signing an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution or attendance at activities related to the signing of an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution, shall be prohibited. Further, per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7.1, in-person, off-campus delivery of an NLI by an institutional staff member shall be prohibited. The NLI may be delivered and received by express mail, courier service, regular mail, facsimile machine or electronic mail.

NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.


Seems to me there's only one version of the NLI according to the NCAA.

[CrazyEcho]

From the NLI website

ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES
For additional information regarding the NLI program, visit the NLI Web site:  

ANNUAL INSTITUTIONAL COMMITMENT: Each NLI member institution is required to file with its conference office on an annual basis a copy of the NLI Institutional Commitment form. The document must be signed and dated by the institution's director of athletics prior to submission to the conference office.

DELIVERY OF THE NLI: Per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7, any in-person, off-campus contact made with a prospective student-athlete for the purposes of signing an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution or attendance at activities related to the signing of an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution, shall be prohibited. Further, per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7.1, in-person, off-campus delivery of an NLI by an institutional staff member shall be prohibited. The NLI may be delivered and received by express mail, courier service, regular mail, facsimile machine or electronic mail.

NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.


Seems to me there's only one version of the NLI according to the NCAA.

Ebanks and Holloway, New York City area stars from the Class of 2008, both originally signed Letters of Intent to attend Indiana. But both - knowing that then Indiana coach Kelvin Sampson had already left one school (Oklahoma) for another (Indiana) - added provisions, saying they would be released from their commitment if Sampson were no longer the coach.

Their concern about Sampson proved fortuitous. Sampson did not leave for another school but he was forced to resign in the wake of a phone call scandal. Both Ebanks and Holloway were released from their commitments.

Such stipulations have since been outlawed by the NCAA, which says recruits are making a commitment to a school, not a coach. But in an era when coaches show little loyalty to their schools and schools show little loyalty to their coaches - four from major conferences have been fired already - some wonder why recruits lose their ability to move on if the coach that recruited them is no longer there.

http://nj.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1066420

I didn't mean it literally, but you are correct.

Apparently (I think, from doing some cursory reading on the subject), a LOI is not binding in the institution until the kid is accepted.  So, schools can refuse to honor a LOI for academic reasons.  Once the kid is accepted, (I think) it's a done-deal. 

This is probably why Newbill was not accepted yet and what I meant by a non-black and white LOI. 

[PE8983]

"What's the right thing to do?"

1) Support the coach.  Something tells me you didn't rail on TC when essentially the same thing was done to Damian Saunders (even though the timing of that was much worse).
2) Support the team's newest member - welcome to MU, Jamil!
3) Stop talking about it when you don't know the whole story.  Your just stirring the pot.  This has been beaten to death over and over and over...

[pbiflyer]

It must be nice to see the world in black/white terms. 

He said, yes, but I can’t ignore my numbers –
I’ve got a chart that spells it out in black and white.
I said, yes, but I see the world in color –
kind of puts it all in a different light.
- David M. Bailey

[dwaderoy2004]

If DJ would have:

1. Submitted his application

2. Been accepted to MU

3. Sign a NLI to MU

Could MU have backed out after that point?

It appears not:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/NLI/About+the+NLI/

Although number 2 is totally in the hands of the institution.  They can not admit him at any point, ala Damian Saunders.

[muwarrior69]

From May 10

Buzz was very candid at the event in LA.

We are going to have a few more signings and he said some of the current players signed will not be coming in. Very interesting comments as to why he has signed so many guys with the intention some will not enroll. buzz went on to say the guys know who they are and it is not a suprise.

He also said Roseboro left because his dad is seriously ill. He was not run off, contrary to reports.

JB was singed sight unseen by Buzz. That was something I was not aware of. He was touted by his coach and Buzz signed him.

He addressed the Big 10 issue. If Rutgers go, who cares. If Rutgers and a few opthes go it will have a negative impact on MU. The BE has been very good financially to MU. There are so many scenarios it is hard to quantify until it happens.

Recruiting is a dirty business. VERY few programs are on the up and up.
Buzz talked and took questions for over 90 minutes and then stayed after to chat with folks. Solid turnout in LA.

Buzz said campus visits are totally overrated and add almost no value. 48 hours anywhere will not convince a kid to go anywhere. Interesting take.


If we take Buzz at his word, then DJ knew he might not be playing at MU. Still does not make it right in my book, but as Buzz said, college recruiting is a dirty business.

[SacWarrior]

Since Chicos wants to see the World in black and white, can I see this from a completely objectivist point of view?

Buzz can either make the team better when given the opportunity

or

Buzz can choose not to make the team better when given the opportunity

[DegenerateDish]

Right thing for Buzz Williams to do is put the best possible basketball product on the court each season, within NCAA guidelines. The move this week only helps accomplish that goal.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why do you hate everything Buzz does?

I don't hate everything he does, not even close.  I'm very pleased he's our coach, that doesn't mean I'm pleased at this decision.  I love my kids, but there's crap they do that is wrong.  What we are doing is wrong. Why are you covering for this action?  Does Rivals.com hate everything Buzz does?  Why are they coming to the same conclusion?    When is a commitment not a commitment?

I have to laugh at the continued Damian Saunders comparisons.  Saunders BROKE THE LAW, for some reason this little factoid seems to be glossed over, not sure why.  Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of over signing to begin with.  All it does is invite this kind of crap.  I could not care less if other programs are doing it.  This just in, these are KIDS and these are their futures and their lives we are talking about.  Some of you make this out like we're trading wheat futures.

Yeah, it's a business.  Yeah, other programs do it.  Yeah, some guys cheat on their wives.  Yeah, some people fudge their taxes.   What is the RIGHT THING TO DO.  This has nothing to do with hatred, it's an easy question.  He signed a NLI, honor it.

[Pakuni]

I have to laugh at the continued Damian Saunders comparisons.  Saunders BROKE THE LAW, for some reason this little factoid seems to be glossed over, not sure why.

That might be a valid point if MU refused to admit Saunders for that reason.
But Tom Crean very clearly stated that the arrest had nothing to do with Saunders being denied admission. To the contrary, Crean went out of his way to say he believed Saunders was guilty of little more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. In fact, the university denied his admission at least two months after learning of his arrest. If the arrest were the reason, why wait so long? And why not say it's the reason? Certainly denying  admission based on a criminal offense would not have caused much indignation among the Marquette faithful.

[MU in Miami]

Why do you hate everything Buzz does?

Better question, how did he amass 7,000 posts on a message board. 

[avid1010]

What we are doing is wrong. Why are you covering for this action?  Does Rivals.com hate everything Buzz does?  Why are they coming to the same conclusion?    When is a commitment not a commitment?

Yeah, it's a business.  Yeah, other programs do it.  Yeah, some guys cheat on their wives.  Yeah, some people fudge their taxes.   What is the RIGHT THING TO DO.  This has nothing to do with hatred, it's an easy question.  He signed a NLI, honor it.

Are you okay with what happened if it played out just as IWB said it did?

Do you think/know that Buzz saying that the current group of recruits weren't going to all show up was kept a secret from DJ?

You say that he signed a NLI and we should honor it, yet you say we shouldn't honor in the case of an athlete doing something illegal.  So what you're really saying is he signed a NLI and we should honor it unless he makes a mistake.  Was not filling out the paperwork on time a sign to Buzz that he wasn't focused enough to show the improvement a player of his caliber would need to make to play BEAST ball?  What's a big enough mistake to warrant not honoring the NLI?

Could DJ have done something to upset MU, but Buzz is taking the high road and not making it public, while DJ throws a fit that MU is now not taking him?  Which would actually make Buzz look better in the eyes of those that matter (future recruits).

I doubt all or even some of the above happened, but my point is you don't know, so everything you type is an assumption.  Should MU honor all NLI's if the player does exactly what is asked of him?  I'm not sure they need to if they clearly tell the player that he could end up needing to give his spot up if they find a better fit for MU.  

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Before this I thought NLIs were a case of black & white as Chicos insinuates.  I'm now convinced there are numerous shades of gray.  IWB's story seems very plausible and acceptable.  How naive I was!

[thatman32]

I have to laugh at the continued Damian Saunders comparisons.  Saunders BROKE THE LAW, for some reason this little factoid seems to be glossed over, not sure why.  Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of over signing to begin with.  All it does is invite this kind of crap.  I could not care less if other programs are doing it.  This just in, these are KIDS and these are their futures and their lives we are talking about.  Some of you make this out like we're trading wheat futures.

Saunders was arrested for carrying that 'dank' aka the sticky green.  This is hardly a major offense in any sense.  Remember people make laws and sometimes those laws are flawed and laughable.  With that logic I guess if abortion is illegal and a women gets an abortion then she BROKE THE LAW and should be banished.  You know else BROKE THE LAW slaves who escaped from 'their owners' and so did most of the south before Lyndon Johnson came along used the national guard to enforce the existing civil rights laws.  Laws have changed over time so the logic of using the 'broke the law' argument is fatally flawed as is your 'do the right thing' mantra.

DJ should have followed up with Williams every couple of weeks if he was serious.  I don't like it but then again it is Williams job to place the best team on the court since that is part of the job.  Sometimes the means justify the end and in this case they do! 

So quit with the 'do the right thing' crap and get off your high moral horse. . .  you come across at a total tool with a limited capacity to understand things.

[babytownfrolics]

Chicos says what's the right thing to do, as if he REALLY cares about the welfare of DJ Newbill.

I'm willing to bet that Chicos could give a rat's ass about DJ Newbill.  This whole thread is just about feeding his massive ego and an attempt to disparage Buzz.

There's lots of suffering in the world, Chicos.  You must be so upset, how are you dealing with it?

[Avenue Commons]

I've changed my position on this. Chicos is right. We made a committment and we should honor it even if LeBron James got his eligibility and wanted to come to MU. We are bigger than any one player and have a responsibility to live up to our Jesuit ideals.

[MarquetteDano]

I've changed my position on this. Chicos is right. We made a committment and we should honor it even if LeBron James got his eligibility and wanted to come to MU. We are bigger than any one player and have a responsibility to live up to our Jesuit ideals.

Here, here.  This is about doing the right thing.  Shades of gray are convenient for those who lack integrity.  Saying we don't know the full story.... convenient excuse.   Saying other institutions do the same thing or worse... justifying.

Even if the IWB story of things is 100% true, I still find issues on how this was handled.  At the very least the perception of the matter is not good.

Marquette boosters can convince themselves nothing was handled wrong here but a true neutral party would have concerns.  I hope I'm wrong about this but if Newbill's statement to the press was an actual quote.... not good.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Marquette University Athletics Department
Our mission is to strive for excellence in academics, athletics, leadership, and service to others in the Jesuit tradition, while embracing equity in opportunity, good sportsmanship, and ethical conduct.

The information is still hazy and evolving (and confusing to me), but in the end, does this pass MU AD's mission?  The key missing piece for me is why the kid had not completed his admission application which would include sending in his transcripts?  Not so clear cut then to me. That seems to indicate that MU and Newbill had a conditional agreement...and along came Wilson.  

As sour as it is, the reality is this kid would be the 14th man off the bench behind Frozena.  Better that he move on and find a place where he can go for his goals.  I don't think doing a You Tube interview about MU will help him in the coaching circle to find a new suitor.  And, the fact is, Buzz will be less inclined to help him in that case.  

Whatever the case, this was clearly one of a few pr recruiting mistakes by Buzz as he is shoots for the stars (although the trade is better).  Frankly, this kid should never have been signed a couple of months ago.  Clearly a major pr stumble that won't soon go away.

[avid1010]

Even if the IWB story of things is 100% true, I still find issues on how this was handled.  At the very least the perception of the matter is not

That's fine, but I don't think Buzz was unethical if that's the case.  Was is a dumb move, probably, but it wouldn't seem unethical to me.  I just hope that's how it really played out.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Since Chicos wants to see the World in black and white, can I see this from a completely objectivist point of view?

Buzz can either make the team better when given the opportunity

or

Buzz can choose not to make the team better when given the opportunity

I want Buzz to make the program better, without crapping on a person's life in the process.  Sorry, that's just how I am.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Right thing for Buzz Williams to do is put the best possible basketball product on the court each season, within NCAA guidelines. The move this week only helps accomplish that goal.

There is a right way to do things.  Winning is important, winning at all costs is not.  I would hope we aspire to some standards above and beyond just what is written in the NCAA guidelines.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Are you okay with what happened if it played out just as IWB said it did?

No, I'm not because I don't understand why on earth we would have let a kid sign a NLI and take away all his options if he was going to Prep school.  Further, I don't think this is exactly how it happened.  If Wilson doesn't come along, are we to believe that Newbill was going Prep?  Don't think so.

Do you think/know that Buzz saying that the current group of recruits weren't going to all show up was kept a secret from DJ?   I don't know, he, his AAU coach and his high school coach sure seemed surprised by it?  Why is that the case?  Either really piss poor communication by our staff or a LOT of people on the other side heard it wrong.

You say that he signed a NLI and we should honor it, yet you say we shouldn't honor in the case of an athlete doing something illegal.  So what you're really saying is he signed a NLI and we should honor it unless he makes a mistake.  Was not filling out the paperwork on time a sign to Buzz that he wasn't focused enough to show the improvement a player of his caliber would need to make to play BEAST ball?  What's a big enough mistake to warrant not honoring the NLI?

No, what I'm really saying is that an ILLEGAL act (not just a mistake) is grounds for the NLI being pulled.  I think this is common sense.  I wouldn't want a school to be forced to take a kid who just committed rape, busted for drugs trafficking, etc.....ILLEGAL behavior that results in a PUBLIC arrest is a lot different than not finishing his application yet.  We all know that if this was a 4 star or 5 star player, the application canard would never have been pulled.  It's a total BS excuse, and embarrassing quite frankly.  Can you imagine if another coached pulled that one, this board would be going insane.

Could DJ have done something to upset MU, but Buzz is taking the high road and not making it public, while DJ throws a fit that MU is now not taking him?  Which would actually make Buzz look better in the eyes of those that matter (future recruits).

Yup, that's possible.  If that's the case, then Buzz isn't playing the game right because public perception is that this kid got thrown under the bus.

I doubt all or even some of the above happened, but my point is you don't know, so everything you type is an assumption.  Should MU honor all NLI's if the player does exactly what is asked of him?  I'm not sure they need to if they clearly tell the player that he could end up needing to give his spot up if they find a better fit for MU.  

Correct, I don't know...I'm going off what I see, hear, etc. I find it a bid odd that we would sign a kid to a NLI and cut him....only when just by happen stance a better player is available.  Much too convenient.  I find it even odder that a kid would sign a NLI with a school that supposedly told him there was a very good chance he would never step on campus...why in the hell would a kid do this?  Makes zero sense.  I believe we should honor commitments.

[bilsu]

Things would really get interesting if Newbill decided to sue to enforce the contract. As far as I understand it an NLI is binding for one year, unless the player is not admitted to the university. The fact that Newbill has not submitted some paper work is or was a correctable error.


The right thing to do was not have Newbill sign an NLI in the first place. If Newbill wanted to go to MU so bad, he could have waited to see if a spot was oepn and not sign NLI, which limits his current options.

The right thing to do, since the NLI was signed, would be for the Big East to allow Newbill to sign with any other Big East school. The fact that he can't is my biggest issue.