MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 5DollarPitcher on March 21, 2018, 12:40:41 PM
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The way I see it there are two factions:
1. Wojo is making great progress, the breakthrough is coming
2. Wojo will never get there, we should cut our losses and open the search now
IMO, 2018-2019 should be the year where these two factions converge into one. The core of the team will be juniors, we will get the reinforcements we've been promised, and we will be rocking a brand new arena. Whether that convergence happens on number 1 or number 2 remains to be seen.
So what are our expectations going into next year? For those of us in bucket 1 - what expectations do you have that must be met for you to remain in bucket 1. Those of us in bucket 2 - what expectations do you have that, if met, would catapult you into bucket 1?
I'll begin:
22 or more total wins (before NCAAs/NIT)
In and out of Top 25 throughout the year
Top 3 BEAST finish (11 or more wins)
BEAST tourney semi-finals
Sweet Sixteen/Round of 32
If met or exceeded, I will happily be in bucket 1. If not, bucket 2.
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Expectations with the current players and incoming players next year will be completely different than if we add a player or two who can play immediately next year (which I expect we will)
I don't expect much more out of the team next year without adding a true PG to the roster. We lose a lot with Rowsey graduating but the improvement I expect from our existing guys plus the addition of our incoming/transfer will make up for some/most of that which puts us right where we were this year on the bubble
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The way I see it there are two factions:
1. Wojo is making great progress, the breakthrough is coming
2. Wojo will never get there, we should cut our losses and open the search now
IMO, 2018-2019 should be the year where these two factions converge into one. The core of the team will be juniors, we will get the reinforcements we've been promised, and we will be rocking a brand new arena. Whether that convergence happens on number 1 or number 2 remains to be seen.
So what are our expectations going into next year? For those of us in bucket 1 - what expectations do you have that must be met for you to remain in bucket 1. Those of us in bucket 2 - what expectations do you have that, if met, would catapult you into bucket 1?
I'll begin:
22 or more total wins (before NCAAs/NIT)
In and out of Top 25 throughout the year
Top 3 BEAST finish (11 or more wins)
BEAST tourney semi-finals
Sweet Sixteen/Round of 32
If met or exceeded, I will happily be in bucket 1. If not, bucket 2.
Great questions.
For total exposure, this year I predicted 18 wins and was HOPEFUL for an NIT tourney. Those were my expections due to the loss of some top scoring, seniors and the only decent defensive talent we had last year.
2018-2020 is Do or Die in my opinion. I won't lie when I say that I have been and still remain in the WOJO camp. (But these next two years are the years he will change minds or be job searching I believe.)
My 2018 expectations:
Similarly hard OOC schedule
21+ wins.
Top 4 in BEast (I hope top 3 but we have seen time and again how you can be a solid team and still end up 6th in the BEast due to a weird mini conference where spots 3-7 are all decided by 1 game) 10+ conference wins.
Expect a top 7 seed in the tourney.
Round of 32 or Sweet 16.
Now having said that, I would also not be surprised if we are a 5 seed and then lose in the first round because that is how the tourney goes.
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After watching the team on D, it is obvious you can not be a big winner, with a small forward that really is a guard, Anim, who does not rebound. Add Matt who is
the worst center in the Big East, throw in 2 guards that could not guard or rebound. In saying that, it was a great year to watch O. I think they did better than I
thought. Going forward,
Matt still will play a little, weakness
Sacar has to be moved to guard, can he play it?
Theo needs to refine his game, if that happens they will be better.
Morrow, will give them an enforcer on the boards, can he shoot the ball?
Sam, surgery, an issue.
Joey, coming off foot surgery, another issue
Brendan Bailey, who knows?
Eke, surgery, did that effect his improvement?
Cain and Elliott, will improve, but see bigger improvement in two years, both need to add muscle. It might take that long.
Howard, can he play point
So there are some question marks. Offense will have to change, can any of those new players create there own shots?
Better D, yes, O no, talent there yes, need another guard
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I can't make a reasonable guess until I know who is going to be PG next year.
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PSA: This thread is not a guess as to how you think we'll do next year. This is expectations for the fifth year of Wojo's tenure based on the resources the program has at its disposal.
I only say this because we are now already making excuses for 2018-2019, and at year 5, these may go on into perpetuity.
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Barring significant injuries, I expect 1 OOC loss (max 2), 11/12 conference regular season wins, 7 seed or better in NCAAs. That's minimum.
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Next year is the time we need to be solidly in the tourney.
Can’t put an expectation on tourney wins because who knows what our draw is.
Not expecting us to be some dominate force that can handle any match up.
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Expectation. Double digit conference wins, single digit seed, no one and done.
Prediction. Wait for a full roster and the schedule to come out.
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My expectations depends largely on our strength coach. In last night games even John looked undersize in the muscle department. The team needs to get significantly physically stronger. Each key player needs to get stronger and if they slack off in the weight room this summer, I can see most posters here being disappointed in next seasons results.
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I expect us to be better than we were this season.
That's as far as I'm willing to go until I know what the roster looks like.
If I told y'all more, I'd have to kill y'all.
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Downgrade the expectation for next year but say that the year after that MU will be loaded.
This is about the third time this has happened under Wojo's watch.
FWIW, the year after never comes.
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Downgrade the expectation for next year but say that the year after that MU will be loaded.
This is about the third time this has happened under Wojo's watch.
FWIW, the year after never comes.
That's what I'm seeing too. Looks like the Wojo Kool-Aid pitcher will not empty until we finish dead last in conference.
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No worse than a 6 seed and a Sweet Sixteen appearance. We were pointing to next season being the year even before this season tipped. If we're anywhere near the bubble next season I'll be pissed.
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No worse than a 6 seed and a Sweet Sixteen appearance. We were pointing to next season being the year even before this season tipped. If we're anywhere near the bubble next season I'll be pissed.
+1
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No worse than a 6 seed and a Sweet Sixteen appearance. We were pointing to next season being the year even before this season tipped. If we're anywhere near the bubble next season I'll be pissed.
Lot of room between near the bubble and sweet sixteen. I don't think we'll be near the bubble, but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Wojo, probably a really nice guy, intense, but he's no basketball whisperer. Next year we'll be about the same 5 - 8 in conference, bubble maybe - true again the following year. Hopefully we only have him through his sixth season. I wanna like him , but he's not the guy. Four years in and I'm convinced.
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Lets see what the roster looks like in the fall. I would be very surprised if nobody left.
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Lot of room between near the bubble and sweet sixteen. I don't think we'll be near the bubble, but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.
Wojo's entire tenure has been a disappointment. Aside from a couple recruiting wins and the Nova upset, this has been the most luke-warm 4+ years in MUBB recent memory. We, as fans and alumni, should really start putting pressure on the program to materialize the plan like now-ish.
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Wojo's entire tenure has been a disappointment. Aside from a couple recruiting wins and the Nova upset, this has been the most luke-warm 4+ years in MUBB recent memory. We, as fans and alumni, should really start putting pressure on the program to materialize the plan like now-ish.
What do we want?
WINS!
When do we want them?
NOW-ISH
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Wojo's entire tenure has been a disappointment. Aside from a couple recruiting wins and the Nova upset, this has been the most luke-warm 4+ years in MUBB recent memory. We, as fans and alumni, should really start putting pressure on the program to materialize the plan like now-ish.
Based on your posts today you have proved that "recent memory" is "only memory" in your case. Don't feel bad, I'm in the same boat.
And if it was all disappointment, there would be no need to add the whole aside from recruiting wins and the Nova win.
If your proposal is to win now, moving away from Wojo is likely not the best option, because we'd be facing 4+ more years of luke-warm basketball.
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Wojo's entire tenure has been a disappointment. Aside from a couple recruiting wins and the Nova upset, this has been the most luke-warm 4+ years in MUBB recent memory. We, as fans and alumni, should really start putting pressure on the program to materialize the plan like now-ish.
Who do you want to replace Wojo, and be realistic about who would be interested in coming to Marquette given your characterization of the current status of the program over the last 4+ years. As it has been pointed out in numerous other threads, see Pitt and their roster departures after a coaching change, getting rid of Wojo right now would set the program back significantly.
The way I look at it is this, at a certain point if Wojo is not successful a decision to pull the plug will need to be made. Taking a step back for 2-3 years to rebuild into a Top 25 program is well worth it, if things all materialize. Anytime you fire a coach you run the risk that the next hire doesn't meet the expectations of the school or in this case Scoop. I hope we don't get to the point where we accept mediocrity out of fear that something worse could happen but in turn prevent anything better from materializing.
If we get a PG for next season and don't make the tournament I think it is time to move on from Wojo. Guy can recruit talent, but if you don't turn that into wins then see yourself out. If we don't have a PG for next season I give Wojo until the 2019-2020 season to make the tournament and be near the top of the conference.
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We definitely needed to derail another thread with the same five people saying they aren't on board the Wojo train.
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Ncaa or the door.
This team can compete. It has the talent. It's missing a single piece. Wojo has had a full year to recruit that missing piece. If he doesn't land it and they end up in the nit again it's completely on him.
Get a point guard, get to the ncaa, keep your job.
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NCAA Tournament is the minimum to keep the job, for sure.
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I made this thread to hopefully get Scoop to put out expectations that, if not met, will result in boarding the fire Wojo train. I've already said that if the realistic yet challenging expectations I've laid out are met, I will be the first person to happily jump on the Projo bandwagon.
Problem is the "give him more time" camp won't actually set tangible/challenging benchmarks for a 5th year coach which is why we see threads titled "Good Season" after being ousted in the Elite Eight of the g-dang NIT!
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Lot of room between near the bubble and sweet sixteen. I don't think we'll be near the bubble, but you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.
We should be ranked basically the entire year and in the hunt for a conference championship. The Big East is losing a ton of great players to graduation and the draft. The expectations should be high. If they aren't, it's an indictment on how bad of a coach you think Wojo actually is.
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Expectations with the current players and incoming players next year will be completely different than if we add a player or two who can play immediately next year (which I expect we will)
I don't expect much more out of the team next year without adding a true PG to the roster. We lose a lot with Rowsey graduating but the improvement I expect from our existing guys plus the addition of our incoming/transfer will make up for some/most of that which puts us right where we were this year on the bubble
Hoping fir two transfers, two ball handlers one a trad n one a grad or two grads a wing n a pg. then imperative we get a top notch incoming PG or another grad PG for 2019-20 season
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We should be ranked basically the entire year and in the hunt for a conference championship. The Big East is losing a ton of great players to graduation and the draft. The expectations should be high. If they aren't, it's an indictment on how bad of a coach you think Wojo actually is.
I think expectations will be high, but considering that only two Big East teams finished the regular season ranked, expecting to be ranked the entire year is a bit much to ask. I'd settle for being ranked, or getting votes from January through March.
Virginia was not ranked to start the year, rankings in November/December mean absolutely nothing.
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Who stays, who goes, who comes, who is healthy? If everything falls in place, 23-24 wins, top 3-4 in the Big East. 5 seed. If Sam doesn't recover, Joey is hobbled, and a couple of unexpected departures, worse.
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I think expectations will be high, but considering that only two Big East teams finished the regular season ranked, expecting to be ranked the entire year is a bit much to ask. I'd settle for being ranked, or getting votes from January through March.
Considering what we have coming back and what we add, I think we'll be either ranked or very close to it before the season. Falling out of the rankings would require losing to teams you should beat. That would not be acceptable to me.
Virginia was not ranked to start the year, rankings in November/December mean absolutely nothing.
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Barro
I don't know enough about non Big East teams to predict a pre season top 25. I think if we go 1-1 in NYC, win our Gavitt game and beat uw we'll be somewhere between 20 and others receiving votes, assuming no other slip-ups. Would love to be wrong I just know that they love putting teams in the pre season top 25 that have big names or did well the previous year. Both USC and Northwestern were pre season top 25 to start the year.
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There's no reason why we can't have a Xavier-type regular season with a grad transfer PG.
That said -
Top 2 in Big East
Top 20 ranking Dec-March
Top 4 seed in NCAA
Post season tourneys are a crapshoot.
Single digit losses ~ 26-9 record or better.
No more excuses!
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These threads are sorta dumb, if Markus or Sam get hurt we easily could miss.
For the people posting fire Wojo scenarios I would like to see your replacement and think about how many players would leave.
See Pittsburgh program
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I expect those with the highest expectations will be the most disappointed.
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Expectation. Double digit conference wins, single digit seed, no one and done.
I can agree with this.
Plus beat Wisconsin.
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These threads are sorta dumb, if Markus or Sam get hurt we easily could miss.
For the people posting fire Wojo scenarios I would like to see your replacement and think about how many players would leave.
See Pittsburgh program
You're right, we should not set any expectations on the chance that all our players get hurt. Further, we should stick with Coach Fraidy-Cat because hey we're a solid NIT team now - better that than even attempting to find a better coach!
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21 regular season wins
10+ Big East wins/Top-3 finish
Comfortable NCAA seed (7 or better)
Statistical & visible defensive improvement
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These threads are sorta dumb, if Markus or Sam get hurt we easily could miss.
For the people posting fire Wojo scenarios I would like to see your replacement and think about how many players would leave.
See Pittsburgh program
If we use Pittsburgh as the standard, then every coach in America should get a lifetime contract. Basketball only has 12 roster spots, so it doesn't have to take that long to turn a program around. I feel like as a fan base we've been more than patient with Wojo. Year 4 and we miss the tourney, and his seat is room temperature at worst.
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You're right, we should not set any expectations on the chance that all our players get hurt. Further, we should stick with Coach Fraidy-Cat because hey we're a solid NIT team now - better that than even attempting to find a better coach!
You seem pretty set in your anti-Wojo thoughts. That's fine, I'm just wondering who you would bring in instead of Wojo this off-season, and how you would convince them that MU is a good place for them to work when you just fired the previous head coach after his first season to season regression.
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Firing a coach who has just come off 20, 19, and 21 win seasons. Brilliant.
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Firing a coach who has just come off 20, 19, and 21 win seasons. Brilliant.
Would you be happy with 20 wins next year?
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You seem pretty set in your anti-Wojo thoughts. That's fine, I'm just wondering who you would bring in instead of Wojo this off-season, and how you would convince them that MU is a good place for them to work when you just fired the previous head coach after his first season to season regression.
Dan Hurley, Eric Musselman, and Nate Oats are all coaches that we could have had a chance at if we were being proactive. All of whom I'm CONVINCED are lightyears better head coaches than Wojo.
As for convincing them to come here? Salary, arena, Chicago pipeline, salary, attendance, Big East, salary?
This is really not that hard. I also believe MU could have had a better COACH upon Wojo's original hiring, but his and the athletics department's sole objective at that time was to clean up the program so that we could exist in the Catholic 10 alongside Cooley and Wright. Because, let's face it, Buzz was could coach a basketball team, but he was going to stick out in the C10 like a pig in Church.
URI, Nevada, and Buff cannot touch us in any of those areas.
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My expectation is that we bury Bucky at the new Real Chili Basketball Park in front of a sea of red, seeing as all Marquette fans have either given up on this team, won't renew their higher-priced season tickets or will take advantage of Bucky fans' willingness to pay extortion prices to view the beatdown and make up the higher cost of said season tickets. Only Chick, Glow, Eng, NoRed, Brew and Microbrew will stand out in Blue and Gold. Brew will cut up one of his fancy Marquette jackets to make Microbrew a tiny Marquette cheerleading outfit.
Everything after that will just be gravy.
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Would you be happy with 20 wins next year?
I've already posted my expectations. Assuming health and no unexpected departures, 23-24 wins. If recoveries of Sam, Greg, and Joey go poorly or there are unexpected departures, my expectations will adjust accordingly.
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Dan Hurley, Eric Musselman, and Nate Oats are all coaches that we could have had a chance at if we were being proactive. All of whom I'm CONVINCED are lightyears better head coaches than Wojo.
As for convincing them to come here? Salary, arena, Chicago pipeline, salary, attendance, Big East, salary?
This is really not that hard. I also believe MU could have had a better COACH upon Wojo's original hiring, but his and the athletics department's sole objective at that time was to clean up the program so that we could exist in the Catholic 10 alongside Cooley and Wright. Because, let's face it, Buzz was could coach a basketball team, but he was going to stick out in the C10 like a pig in Church.
URI, Nevada, and Buff cannot touch us in any of those areas.
Money only gets you so far.
The MU job become exponentially less desirable if any potential hires know that they will be fired at the first sign of regression. That is the message that we would be sending if Wojo were to be dismissed.
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Money only gets you so far.
The MU job become exponentially less desirable if any potential hires know that they will be fired at the first sign of regression. That is the message that we would be sending if Wojo were to be dismissed.
I think the three I listed are smart enough to recognize Wojo is not that great of a coach. The Big East coaches give him props in interviews, but I think they like having him around if you know what I mean.
Also, I wouldn't use the word regression more than I'd use the word stagnation. Looking at this year versus last year, I'd say we basically had the same result - just barely on either side of the bubble. The year before, we had a lottery pick and couldn't even make the NIT.
Lots of coaches have done lots more with lots less than Wojo has with some pretty decent players. So far, he has failed to make this team more than the sum of its parts in any of his 4 seasons which, IMO, is a fair judgement of his coaching ability.
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How are any of those coaches an improvement over Wojo. Did they lose to Villanova 3 times and Xavier twice?
How did those teams do in the rugged Big East?
We started over after Buzz and the cupboard was absolutely dry, we should ditch Wojo because why?
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I've already posted my expectations. Assuming health and no unexpected departures, 23-24 wins. If recoveries of Sam, Greg, and Joey go poorly or there are unexpected departures, my expectations will adjust accordingly.
Ok, but if he wins 20 +/- 1 games for the next 4 years, is he still safe in your eyes, or would you mock anyone that thinks he should go?
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I think the three I listed are smart enough to recognize Wojo is not that great of a coach. The Big East coaches give him props in interviews, but I think they like having him around if you know what I mean.
Also, I wouldn't use the word regression more than I'd use the word stagnation. Looking at this year versus last year, I'd say we basically had the same result - just barely on either side of the bubble. The year before, we had a lottery pick and couldn't even make the NIT.
Lots of coaches have done lots more with lots less than Wojo has with some pretty decent players. So far, he has failed to make this team more than the sum of its parts in any of his 4 seasons which, IMO, is a fair judgement of his coaching ability.
This year vs last year the difference is about an average of two years experience, the year before we did not have a lottery pick, we did however have a very good freshman that knew he was gone at the end of the year and played so that he could stuff his stats to make himself more appealing to NBA scouts, he was also on a 20 win team.
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How frequently do teams jump from NIT to top NCAA seeds in a year? As excited and optimistic as I am for next year, I think there will be an adjustment period early on and that MU will improve as the year goes on. Given all the talent leaving the BE, MU should, in theory, be poised for a top half finish. I'll say 11-7 in conference play should be the minimum expectation.
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How are any of those coaches an improvement over Wojo. Did they lose to Villanova 3 times and Xavier twice?
How did those teams do in the rugged Big East?
We started over after Buzz and the cupboard was absolutely dry, we should ditch Wojo because why?
Ha, kinda unfair to judge a mid-major coach on how they fared against teams they literally cannot schedule.
These coaches dominated their conferences and showed up in the NCAA Tourney big time. They made their teams more than the sum of their parts, and they recruited good players to come to Whositwhatsit University.
Whether he would accept or not, if you offered Danny Hurley to Scoop right now I guarantee you 80% would take him in a heartbeat, even the Wojo Kool-Aiders.
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Anyone whose expectations are centered around our performance in the NCAA tournament is dumb. If we finish 13-5 in conference, 2nd in the Big East, and get upset in the first round of the tournament...that is a FAR more successful year than going 9-9, sneaking in and making a run to the Sweet 16
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Ok, but if he wins 20 +/- 1 games for the next 4 years, is he still safe in your eyes, or would you mock anyone that thinks he should go?
Keep moving those goalposts. Every season is different.
This year MU was 21-8 against non 1-2 seeds. With 3 freshmen, 4 sophomores, 3 guys playing the same position who couldn't be played at the same time, 2 tiny guards as the leading scorers, one player who played all year on a bad hip, another with a brace on his thumb all year. Taken in a vacuum, that is a helluva coaching job.
If you want to blame Wojo for roster make up, go ahead. But the actual coaching of the actual roster was solid.
Playing rotations.... who should have played more? It isn't like more can reasonably be expected from 3 star freshmen.
Defense: frustrating. I watch other team's running the same stuff as Marquette. But without 5'10 guards defending 6'5 guards. Don't play them together! Squeeze more out of the injured 3 star freshman. Or the skinny one with bad hands. But it is a good thing that the 6'5 junior guard left.
Take Marquette off the jersey and look at it objectively. Wojo squeezed everything he could have out of this roster.
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Great Ploy, Pitcher. Start a new thread under the guise of asking for information and then argue with everyone who disagrees with you. Hmm, are you perhaps one of our more infamous posters who regularly sneak back with new identities? Or perhaps you strongly believe Wojo has to go and MU can easily get rid of him without disruption and rebuilding time that seems to come with coaching shakeups (see, for example: Buzz, 2013. Pitt, 2018.). Or maybe you're just disagreeable. At any rate, I've had my fill of Fire Wojo threads. Plenty of places here already to rag on him without starting a new one.
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Keep moving those goalposts. Every season is different.
"Firing a coach who has just come off 20, 19, and 21 win seasons. Brilliant."
It was you who said that, not me. You're the one moving the goalposts.
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Great Ploy, Pitcher. Start a new thread under the guise of asking for information and then argue with everyone who disagrees with you. Hmm, are you perhaps one of our more infamous posters who regularly sneak back with new identities? Or perhaps you strongly believe Wojo has to go and MU can easily get rid of him without disruption and rebuilding time that seems to come with coaching shakeups (see, for example: Buzz, 2013. Pitt, 2018.). Or maybe you're just disagreeable. At any rate, I've had my fill of Fire Wojo threads. Plenty of places here already to rag on him without starting a new one.
I'm not a multiple account guy, so we can start there. But, as I've said before, I started the thread to (for lack of a more gentle phrase) back Wojo supporters into a corner - "What will it take for you to continue to support Wojo next year". That way, regardless of what happens next year (barring major injuries, sure), we will have clear benchmarks to judge him against so we can finally put a stop to all the excuses once and for all.
But, Wojo supporters have mostly given themselves a way out by not quantifying their expectations or leaving caveats in their expectations. This way, when we're a bubble team again next year, Scoop will excuse Wojo, Wojo will use these excuses in his presser ("WE'RE YOUNG!"), and we'll be back here again next year.
Quantify some challenging expectations or else you are acknowledging that you really wouldn't bet on Wojo taking that step. It's that simple.
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I'm not a multiple account guy, so we can start there. But, as I've said before, I started the thread to (for lack of a more gentle phrase) back Wojo supporters into a corner - "What will it take for you to continue to support Wojo next year". That way, regardless of what happens next year (barring major injuries, sure), we will have clear benchmarks to judge him against so we can finally put a stop to all the excuses once and for all.
But, Wojo supporters have mostly given themselves a way out by not quantifying their expectations or leaving caveats in their expectations. This way, when we're a bubble team again next year, Scoop will excuse Wojo, Wojo will use these excuses in his presser ("WE'RE YOUNG!"), and we'll be back here again next year.
Quantify some challenging expectations or else you are acknowledging that you really wouldn't bet on Wojo taking that step. It's that simple.
I've stated it before. I've put it in my sig. You aren't really putting anyone in a corner.
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Dan Hurley, Eric Musselman, and Nate Oats are all coaches that we could have had a chance at if we were being proactive. All of whom I'm CONVINCED are lightyears better head coaches than Wojo.
As for convincing them to come here? Salary, arena, Chicago pipeline, salary, attendance, Big East, salary?
This is really not that hard. I also believe MU could have had a better COACH upon Wojo's original hiring, but his and the athletics department's sole objective at that time was to clean up the program so that we could exist in the Catholic 10 alongside Cooley and Wright. Because, let's face it, Buzz was could coach a basketball team, but he was going to stick out in the C10 like a pig in Church.
URI, Nevada, and Buff cannot touch us in any of those areas.
I want no part of Dan Hurley, the guy irritates me to no end. And it took him until... year 5 to even make the tourney with Rhode Island (as an 11 seed), then round 2 bounced this year with a team full of seniors. No thanks!
I like Musselman too, but I expect we'll see Wojo and him have a similar level of success over time (if he doesn't find his way back to the NBA), and he's a west coast guy that has bounced around a ton so where's the long term fit from his perspective or ours?
Oats is a solid coach, I like the way his team plays, very junkyard dog Buzz-like. But he was an effing high school coach for a decade and an assistant at UB for a couple years. You would have been sh!tting yourself with anger had we hired him in 2014. Plus, a lot of the best players on that team he inherited from Hurley. I'd like to see how he does if/when he takes a step up in competition.
My guess is you will look at this post in a few years and laugh at wanting any of these guys over Wojo.
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But, Wojo supporters have mostly given themselves a way out by not quantifying their expectations or leaving caveats in their expectations.
Caveats and qualifications are actually signs of better "thinking" than statements are are inflexible and definitive. I'm grading AP History papers right now (or I should be) and the "Complex Understanding" section of the rubric gives kids credit for "Explaining nuance by analyzing multiple variables" or "Qualifying or modifying an argument by considering alternatives views/evidence." If high school kids can be expected to be flexible and understand that situations change, then so should you.
I'd really like to win 25 games and go to the Sweet Sixteen, but if half the team break their legs or someone gets cancer or the rest of the Big East isn't as down as we're thinking so we just barely scrape into the dance at 19-11, I'm not calling for Wojo's head because we didn't win 20 games or didn't get a 7 seed or higher or didn't finish top 3 in the conference. That kind of thinking is just asinine.
Let's remember, of course, that "only the Sith deal in absolutes"
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If Wojo goes for whatever reason, TJ Otzelberger should be one of the top choices for consideration.
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I'm not a multiple account guy, so we can start there. But, as I've said before, I started the thread to (for lack of a more gentle phrase) back Wojo supporters into a corner - "What will it take for you to continue to support Wojo next year". That way, regardless of what happens next year (barring major injuries, sure), we will have clear benchmarks to judge him against so we can finally put a stop to all the excuses once and for all.
But, Wojo supporters have mostly given themselves a way out by not quantifying their expectations or leaving caveats in their expectations. This way, when we're a bubble team again next year, Scoop will excuse Wojo, Wojo will use these excuses in his presser ("WE'RE YOUNG!"), and we'll be back here again next year.
Why do you assume that it's binary? Some of us are skeptical MU fans cautiously hoping that Wojo takes the program to great heights, and are willing to give him a bit of runway to do so. We're not defending him irrationally (though some do) nor do we want to throw the whole thing out without seeing what he does with a strong returning team (though some do).
What's unimpeachable is this: there's a lot of talent on the current team and a lot of talent coming. Wanting to see what Wojo can do with that, rather than dumping the whole thing out the window, doesn't make someone a Wojo supporter - it makes us MU basketball fans.
Metrics, you say? How about make the tournament and look like a team that's progressed while doing so.
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Caveats and qualifications are actually signs of better "thinking" than statements are are inflexible and definitive. I'm grading AP History papers right now (or I should be) and the "Complex Understanding" section of the rubric gives kids credit for "Explaining nuance by analyzing multiple variables" or "Qualifying or modifying an argument by considering alternatives views/evidence." If high school kids can be expected to be flexible and understand that situations change, then so should you.
I'd really like to win 25 games and go to the Sweet Sixteen, but if half the team break their legs or someone gets cancer or the rest of the Big East isn't as down as we're thinking so we just barely scrape into the dance at 19-11, I'm not calling for Wojo's head because we didn't win 20 games or didn't get a 7 seed or higher or didn't finish top 3 in the conference. That kind of thinking is just asinine.
Let's remember, of course, that "only the Sith deal in absolutes"
But the thing is, any excuse generated (besides injury which I acknowledged before your post here) will have been created by Wojo himself through his tenure at the program.
>Rest of BE isn't down --> we shouldn't need the BE to be down to be a competitive team
>Young --> he's been constructing the roster for 5 years
>No PG --> he's been constructing the roster for 5 years
>Defense doesn't take the leap --> he's the head coach
Besides injury, there should not be any room for caveats or excuses - regardless of how stupid your APUSH rubric thinks I am.
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APUSH?
In a vacuum, with the make up of this year's roster, playing in a high level conference, what should the record have been?
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APUSH?
In a vacuum, with the make up of this year's roster, playing in a high level conference, what should the record have been?
AP US History
And, I believe this roster could have accomplished what Providence did this year. I think we have a similar talent level and similar amount of "holes", but Cooley made them, as I've said before, more than the sum of their parts.
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APUSH?
In a vacuum, with the make up of this year's roster, playing in a high level conference, what should the record have been?
I think if we had played in the Big10 or Pac12 with this exact roster we'd have won 24+
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Providence, regular season, 19-12, 10-8.
Marquette, regular season, 18-12, 9-9.
Providence, final record, 21-14
Marquette, final record, 21-14.
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Wojo's entire tenure has been a disappointment. Aside from a couple recruiting wins and the Nova upset, this has been the most luke-warm 4+ years in MUBB recent memory. We, as fans and alumni, should really start putting pressure on the program to materialize the plan like now-ish.
Eh, cupboard was bare coming in and got to the tourney in his third season and flirted with another berth this year - now he's going to have the personnel to make some noise over the next few years and hopefully beyond. Let's hope the first four years proved to be fertile learning ground and he takes off moving forward.
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If Wojo goes for whatever reason, TJ Otzelberger should be one of the top choices for consideration.
Agree here. Lots of WI ties. Thought he deserved a crack at the Marquette West job when Hoiberg left.
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Eh, cupboard was bear coming in and got to the tourney in his third season and flirted with another berth this year - now he's going to have the personnel to make some noise over the next few years and hopefully beyond. Let's hope the first four years proved to be fertile learning ground and he takes off moving forward.
Drink!
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Drink!
Ha, I know. The cliche got me.
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Providence, regular season, 19-12, 10-8.
Marquette, regular season, 18-12, 9-9.
Providence, final record, 21-14
Marquette, final record, 21-14.
Let's exclude post-season tournaments for obvious reasons (NIT vs NCAAs - huge difference)
19-13 versus 21-13 (with the run in the BET)
I don't think it's fair to say MU and Providence had the same amount of success this season and the selection committee would heartily agree with me.
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How frequently do teams jump from NIT to top NCAA seeds in a year? As excited and optimistic as I am for next year, I think there will be an adjustment period early on and that MU will improve as the year goes on. Given all the talent leaving the BE, MU should, in theory, be poised for a top half finish. I'll say 11-7 in conference play should be the minimum expectation.
TCU won the NIT last year. Were a 6 seed this year.
Clemson went from the NIT last year to a 5 seed this year.
2018 tourney teams Houston, Syracuse, Alabama, Charleston and UNC-Greensboro also played in the NIT last year.
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I want no part of Dan Hurley, the guy irritates me to no end. And it took him until... year 5 to even make the tourney with Rhode Island (as an 11 seed), then round 2 bounced this year with a team full of seniors. No thanks!
I like Musselman too, but I expect we'll see Wojo and him have a similar level of success over time (if he doesn't find his way back to the NBA), and he's a west coast guy that has bounced around a ton so where's the long term fit from his perspective or ours?
Oats is a solid coach, I like the way his team plays, very junkyard dog Buzz-like. But he was an effing high school coach for a decade and an assistant at UB for a couple years. You would have been sh!tting yourself with anger had we hired him in 2014. Plus, a lot of the best players on that team he inherited from Hurley. I'd like to see how he does if/when he takes a step up in competition.
My guess is you will look at this post in a few years and laugh at wanting any of these guys over Wojo.
Excellent post, EFR.
People always want the backup QB to play ... until he actually has to play.
5DP is CONVINCED that Hurley, Musselman and Oats not only are better but "light years" better. Not sure what "light years" means, but a light year is a lot, so I'll go with a minimum 50% better. So 5DP must be certain that any of them would have averaged 30 wins the last 3 seasons at Marquette.
5DP is another one who would have "seen enough" and fired Tony Bennett after 4 years at Va or Jay Wright after 3 at Nova or Coach K after 3 at Duke. He'll deny it, but I'm CONVINCED he'd be light years away from the truth.
And let's talk about The Great Dan Hurley, shall we?
He went 8-21, 14-18, 23-10 and 17-15 with 1 NIT win over Iona in his first 4 years at URI. If 5DP were a URI backer, I'm CONVINCED he would have "seen enough" of that coach and been calling for them to hire somebody "light years" better!
I'm also CONVINCED 5DP will be rooting for us to lose next season so he can scream "I told you so." Those types are easy to spot from light years away. More important for them to be "right" than anything else.
Wojo is an improving coach and he's got a chance to be a very good one. I can't sit here and say that I am 100% certain he will be a very good one, but I think he can be. I'm glad he's our coach. And I will be rooting for him (and us) to win. Not so I can say "I told you so" but because I'm a Warriors fan.
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I made this thread to hopefully get Scoop to put out expectations that, if not met, will result in boarding the fire Wojo train.
At least you're being honest about the douchey reason for the thread and the tacit hope that expectations aren't met.
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Let's exclude post-season tournaments for obvious reasons (NIT vs NCAAs - huge difference)
19-13 versus 21-13 (with the run in the BET)
I don't think it's fair to say MU and Providence had the same amount of success this season and the selection committee would heartily agree with me.
See here's the thing about PC. They had some better wins than us. 100% true. But I can guarantee that as loud as the fire wojo voices got after the DePaul loss, they would have been much louder if we had lost at home by 17 to DePaul.
If we started 3 Seniors that had played together for four years and only got two more wins for it, I would understand more of the fire wojo stuff. If when Sam and Markus are Seniors and we only get 10 conference wins and eliminated in the first round of the NCAA tourney I will probably be one of the fire wojo voices.
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Excellent post, EFR.
People always want the backup QB to play ... until he actually has to play.
5DP is CONVINCED that Hurley, Musselman and Oats not only are better but "light years" better. Not sure what "light years" means, but a light year is a lot, so I'll go with a minimum 50% better. So 5DP must be certain that any of them would have averaged 30 wins the last 3 seasons at Marquette.
5DP is another one who would have "seen enough" and fired Tony Bennett after 4 years at Va or Jay Wright after 3 at Nova or Coach K after 3 at Duke. He'll deny it, but I'm CONVINCED he'd be light years away from the truth.
And let's talk about The Great Dan Hurley, shall we?
He went 8-12, 14-18, 23-10 and 17-15 with 1 NIT win over Iona in his first 4 years at URI. If 5DP were a URI backer, I'm CONVINCED he would have "seen enough" of that coach and been calling for them to hire somebody "light years" better!
I'm also CONVINCED 5DP will be rooting for us to lose next season so he can scream "I told you so." Those types are easy to spot from light years away. More important for them to be "right" than anything else.
Wojo is an improving coach and he's got a chance to be a very good one. I can't sit here and say that I am 100% certain he will be a very good one, but I think he can be. I'm glad he's our coach. And I will be rooting for him (and us) to win. Not so I can say "I told you so" but because I'm a Warriors fan.
Jay Wright was 24-8 in Y4 and 28-5 in Y5. We've seen Wojo's Y4 and I think we all know we aren't getting to 28-5 in Y5. So try again.
Also I said better coach, can we agree that Roy Williams is like a 200% better coach than Wojo? I don't see UNC getting 40 wins, right? Come on, you and I both know that one was illogical.
And I have season tickets, and I stood up cheering the entire time in the Kohl Hole (check my post history) so I cheer harder for the team more than most people I've ever met. Sometimes you criticize because you know we can do better - rather than the parent that lets their kid bring home B minuses and rewards them for it.
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Classic I'm a better fan than you post. It was only a matter of time
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Classic I'm a better fan than you post. It was only a matter of time
I think MU82 started the "I'm a better fan than you post" when he accused me of cheering for the team to lose unlike the loyal, galant, Legion of Wojo who would never say a slight word about him. That's how a REEEEAL fan does it.
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I think MU82 started the "I'm a better fan than you post" when he accused me of cheering for the team to lose unlike the loyal, galant, Legion of Wojo who would never say a slight word about him. That's how a REEEEAL fan does it.
Please see my post from two minutes ago saying that in the future if we do not surpass PC record this year (Your bar for success) that I will be in the fire Wojo camp.
Ya got me, backed me down into a corner, intimidated me, the whole nine yards, no excuses now.
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Jay Wright was 24-8 in Y4 and 28-5 in Y5. We've seen Wojo's Y4 and I think we all know we aren't getting to 28-5 in Y5. So try again
Jay was also in his 11th season as a head coach by the time he reached his fourth year at Nova, so it's not exactly an equal comparison.
But since you want to make the comparison:
Wright's first four years at Nova - 76 wins, one NCAA bid
Wojo's first four years at MU - 73 wins, one NCAA bid
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Jay Wright was 24-8 in Y4 and 28-5 in Y5. We've seen Wojo's Y4 and I think we all know we aren't getting to 28-5 in Y5. So try again.
Also I said better coach, can we agree that Roy Williams is like a 200% better coach than Wojo? I don't see UNC getting 40 wins, right? Come on, you and I both know that one was illogical.
And I have season tickets, and I stood up cheering the entire time in the Kohl Hole (check my post history) so I cheer harder for the team more than most people I've ever met. Sometimes you criticize because you know we can do better - rather than the parent that lets their kid bring home B minuses and rewards them for it.
OK, I'll give you Jay Wright ... although I specifically said you would have been calling for him to be fired after Year 3 at Nova, when he was 52-46 with zero NCAA appearances. I'll give you K's 4th season, too. Look up Bennett's first 4 years at Va - as TAMU noted elsewhere, eerily similar to Wojo's 4.
But what? No full-throated defense of Dan Hurley? Effen admit it, 5DP, if you were at URI after him going 8-21, 14-18, 23-10 and 17-15, you'd have been calling for his arse to get tossed. If you won't admit that, you have ZERO credibility, because that's 10 light years worse than what Wojo has done in 4 years at MU.
I'm not gonna get into the "who is a better fan" contest. If that's where you think I was going, then I apologize.
Frankly, in this thread you haven't sounded like a parent who thinks his kid can do better than B-minus.
You've sounded like a parent who disowns his kid because the kid didn't make the latest semester's honor roll - you know, like little Danny Hurley down the street did.
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OK, I'll give you Jay Wright ... although I specifically said you would have been calling for him to be fired after Year 3 at Nova, when he was 52-46 with zero NCAA appearances. I'll give you K's 4th season, too. Look up Bennett's first 4 years at Va - as TAMU noted elsewhere, eerily similar to Wojo's 4.
But what? No full-throated defense of Dan Hurley? Effen admit it, 5DP, if you were at URI after him going 8-21, 14-18, 23-10 and 17-15, you'd have been calling for his arse to get tossed. If you won't admit that, you have ZERO credibility, because that's 10 light years worse than what Wojo has done in 4 years at MU.
I'm not gonna get into the "who is a better fan" contest. If that's where you think I was going, then I apologize.
Frankly, in this thread you haven't sounded like a parent who thinks his kid can do better than B-minus.
You've sounded like a parent who disowns his kid because the kid didn't make the latest semester's honor roll - you know, like little Danny Hurley down the street did.
Alright, I admit that if I was at URI, I wouldn't have been happy with the product after multiple consecutive losing seasons with Hurley. You win that one. But I still like the way he coaches today, and I won't say I don't.
And for me, I just don't see it in Wojo. Nothing he's done on the court, in pressers, in games, in tournaments has shown me he's anything more than what he looks like now. And this is just MY opinion, so we may not agree. I'm willing to give him next year, but the whole point of this thread was to make next year THE year for him (and all the Scoopers who continue to bash us that don't like him) to basically put up or shut up with some real progress - progress that can and should be made at a top 10 spending basketball school.
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Let's exclude post-season tournaments for obvious reasons (NIT vs NCAAs - huge difference)
19-13 versus 21-13 (with the run in the BET)
I don't think it's fair to say MU and Providence had the same amount of success this season and the selection committee would heartily agree with me.
Providence won one more game than MU in the Big East tourney. Their regular season record were nearly identical. Marquette had a season as good as Providence. That is your market for success. You cherry picked to prove a point.
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If Wojo goes for whatever reason, TJ Otzelberger should be one of the top choices for consideration.
He might be my first pick at this point. We'd have a hard time finding anyone who knew our traditional recruiting grounds better.
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I think the three I listed are smart enough to recognize Wojo is not that great of a coach. The Big East coaches give him props in interviews, but I think they like having him around if you know what I mean.
Also, I wouldn't use the word regression more than I'd use the word stagnation. Looking at this year versus last year, I'd say we basically had the same result - just barely on either side of the bubble. The year before, we had a lottery pick and couldn't even make the NIT.
Lots of coaches have done lots more with lots less than Wojo has with some pretty decent players. So far, he has failed to make this team more than the sum of its parts in any of his 4 seasons which, IMO, is a fair judgement of his coaching ability.
You do realize MU has kept their results "stagnant" while playing increasingly more difficult seasons, yes?
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5dollar pitcher, your last post is honest. You don't think Wojo has 'it'. OK. I am not convinced of it myself. I've seen enough to not give up. You haven't. OK. Moving on.
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Alright, I admit that if I was at URI, I wouldn't have been happy with the product after multiple consecutive losing seasons with Hurley. You win that one. But I still like the way he coaches today, and I won't say I don't.
And for me, I just don't see it in Wojo. Nothing he's done on the court, in pressers, in games, in tournaments has shown me he's anything more than what he looks like now. And this is just MY opinion, so we may not agree. I'm willing to give him next year, but the whole point of this thread was to make next year THE year for him (and all the Scoopers who continue to bash us that don't like him) to basically put up or shut up with some real progress - progress that can and should be made at a top 10 spending basketball school.
You wouldn't have "seen it" in Hurley, either. You wouldn't have "seen it" in Wright after Year 3.
We don't know what Wojo will be. You think you do, but you don't.
I think we'll be better next year. That obviously means a higher finish in the BE and an NCAA bid. I'd be happy with that as long as I saw genuine progress on the court. That's as on-the-spot as I need to be put. Actually, it's moreso. This season ended 24 hours ago. None of us need to state expectations for next season yet.
Even your own title says "way too early."
And that's the one thing I agree with you on the most: It's way too effen early.
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The new arena is ten times nicer than the Wintrust.
My season tickets go up 40%.
I continue to love MU basketball.
The Scoop Intelligencia (btw, that's all of us) continue to debate every thread ad infinitum
Wojo does NOT copy Buzz's new do.
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The Scoop Intelligencia (btw, that's all of us) continue to debate every thread ad infinitum
We do not debate every thread ad infinitum.
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You wouldn't have "seen it" in Hurley, either. You wouldn't have "seen it" in Wright after Year 3.
We don't know what Wojo will be. You think you do, but you don't.
I think we'll be better next year. That obviously means a higher finish in the BE and an NCAA bid. I'd be happy with that as long as I saw genuine progress on the court. That's as on-the-spot as I need to be put. Actually, it's moreso. This season ended 24 hours ago. None of us need to state expectations for next season yet.
Even your own title says "way too early."
And that's the one thing I agree with you on the most: It's way too effen early.
Opinion stated as fact. We are 4 years in. Oddly, you seemed to be able to conclude after watching LeBron James play one game that he was the real deal. Why after 4-years of Wojo, do you say you feel "we don't know what Wojo will be?" I'll take a guess: Because the results thus far have been marginal at best.
Here's to hoping Year 5 it all comes together. Smart money says, it will be a repeat of the last two seasons. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we take a step back from this year.
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In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we take a step back from this year.
Of course you wouldn't. Because you are, at heart, a negative person.
Rough way to go through life. Glad that's not me!
Go Marquette!
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Opinion stated as fact.
Actually it's a fact stated as a fact. We don't know what Wojo will be. We can't see the future. We can make educated guesses but that's it.
I think this is another place where the supposed "pro-Wojo" crowd and "anti-Wojo" crowd break off. I don't think you will find one person who will say "Wojo is a stud." If anyone did, the "pro-Wojo" crowd would challenge that and say "he could be a stud" and probably give a bunch reasons why he might not be one.
What we do see a lot of is people definitely declaring that Wojo is a bum. The "pro-Wojo" crowd has challenged that and shown why he might not be a bum.
Really "pro-Wojo" just means "cautious" and "anti-Wojo" just means "quick to judge."
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Actually it's a fact stated as a fact. We don't know what Wojo will be. We can't see the future. We can make educated guesses but that's it.
I think this is another place where the supposed "pro-Wojo" crowd and "anti-Wojo" crowd break off. I don't think you will find one person who will say "Wojo is a stud." If anyone did, the "pro-Wojo" crowd would challenge that and say "he could be a stud" and probably give a bunch reasons why he might not be one.
What we do see a lot of is people definitely declaring that Wojo is a bum. The "pro-Wojo" crowd has challenged that and shown why he might not be a bum.
Really "pro-Wojo" just means "cautious" and "anti-Wojo" just means "quick to judge."
Ding ding ding!!
Indeed, I went out of my way NOT to present my opinion as fact.
Ners might want to try that some time.
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Of course you wouldn't. Because you are, at heart, a negative person.
Rough way to go through life. Glad that's not me!
Go Marquette!
I do admire the rainbows and unicorns world you live in. Takes a solid bit of delusion to get there as it relates to Wojo, but, cheers to you for being blind to reality: We have a mediocre coach.
And once again, despite your self-bestowed expertise as "an observer of the human condition," you are once again wrong - I'm not a negative person at all. Go back to my posting history when I joined the board and opined on Buzz. You'll see I was full on bullish, optimistic and excited 3 months in. I call it like I see it..and do so early. Guys like you? You "observe" for 4 years and still don't have a concrete position. Sounds about right for a journalist.
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Jay was also in his 11th season as a head coach by the time he reached his fourth year at Nova, so it's not exactly an equal comparison.
But since you want to make the comparison:
Wright's first four years at Nova - 76 wins, one NCAA bid
Wojo's first four years at MU - 73 wins, one NCAA bid
Wright also had a 5 Seed and a Sweet 16 appearance in year 4 and was bringing back a Top 5 team the following year.
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Wright also had a 5 Seed and a Sweet 16 appearance in year 4 and was bringing back a Top 5 team the following year.
These guys could compare Wojo to Pope Francis and Michael Jordan at the same time if they wanted to.
The fact is Wojo is does not coach on the level of Wright, Cooley, or even *gasp* Buzz. Unless he himself improves significantly as an X's and O's guy, motivator, and authoritarian - we will be in for years of what we've already seen (which some on this board are OK with).
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These guys could compare Wojo to Pope Francis and Michael Jordan at the same time if they wanted to.
The fact is Wojo is does not coach on the level of Wright, Cooley, or even *gasp* Buzz. Unless he himself improves significantly as an X's and O's guy, motivator, and authoritarian - we will be in for years of what we've already seen (which some on this board are OK with).
I struggle with the Wright comparisons, but I don’t think Wojo is far off from Cooley or Buzz. Cooley hasn’t made it past the second round and Buzz hasn’t won a tourney game since ‘13, with a good season next year Wojo could easily be on equal footing with those guys.
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I like you all.
I swung the old irons and woods around this past weekend, and let’s just say my back is a mess. So, I can’t sleep. It’s tough.
Then I come here and read these threads and it is like counting sheep. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance. 5 little sheep. 6 little sheep. The butcher the baker and the candle stick maker. Getting sleepy.
Scotch is kicking in. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance.
In sum, opinions are opinions and fact are facts except when sheep count opinions as facts. Oh, and fact: Wojo’s huddles on TV suck. Bad. Really bad.
7 sheep. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance. 8 sheep. Benromach Single Malt. Wojo. 9 sheep.
Zzzzz.
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The butcher the baker and the candle stick maker. Getting sleepy.
Buzz! Throw a good pitch, throw a good pitch, throw a good pitch.
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I like you all.
I swung the old irons and woods around this past weekend, and let’s just say my back is a mess. So, I can’t sleep. It’s tough.
Then I come here and read these threads and it is like counting sheep. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance. 5 little sheep. 6 little sheep. The butcher the baker and the candle stick maker. Getting sleepy.
Scotch is kicking in. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance.
In sum, opinions are opinions and fact are facts except when sheep count opinions as facts. Oh, and fact: Wojo’s huddles on TV suck. Bad. Really bad.
7 sheep. Wojo sucks. Give Wojo a chance. 8 sheep. Benromach Single Malt. Wojo. 9 sheep.
Zzzzz.
Listen to this tired, crooked, drunken seer, he speaks truth.
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Who will be here come September?
How will Sam recover from Surgery?
How will GE recover from Surgery?
How will Joey recover from Surgery?
How will transfer in?
Who will be the PG?
Until these questions are answered, impossible to predict how our season will play out.
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Who will be here come September?
How will Sam recover from Surgery?
How will GE recover from Surgery?
How will Joey recover from Surgery?
How will transfer in?
Who will be the PG?
Until these questions are answered, impossible to predict how our season will play out.
The Hausers' health and need of a PG are the biggest factors IMO. I can't see anyone other than Harry transferring prior to the season starting, but December is another thing; there is an awfully large contingent of 3's and 4's for a finite amount of minutes, and it is impossible to satisfy 12 or 13 players with regard to the minutes they want to play.
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I think we are getting way too far in the weeds with this one. The way to win college basketball games is to have good players. Is wojo bringing in good players? Are the players that he brought in getting better? If yes, the rest will work itself out.
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I do admire the rainbows and unicorns world you live in. Takes a solid bit of delusion to get there as it relates to Wojo, but, cheers to you for being blind to reality: We have a mediocre coach.
And once again, despite your self-bestowed expertise as "an observer of the human condition," you are once again wrong - I'm not a negative person at all. Go back to my posting history when I joined the board and opined on Buzz. You'll see I was full on bullish, optimistic and excited 3 months in. I call it like I see it..and do so early. Guys like you? You "observe" for 4 years and still don't have a concrete position. Sounds about right for a journalist.
You said my previous comment was opinion stated as fact because you didn't like it. TAMU called you out on your lie. Rather than apologize for lying - or even admit it - you changed the subject ... to make a personal attack. Classic Ners.
Character revealed ... for about the 1,000th time.
Is it true that after you were banned, you went over to Dodds' board and tortured them for a year or so?
What happened? Why did you come back to Scoop? Did you run out of people to antagonize there?
Or maybe you get some kind of masochistic pleasure out of dealing with us - you like constantly being called on your BS?
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Is it true that after you were banned, you went over to Dodds' board and tortured them for a year or so?
He was banned there multiple times as well, and quickly. Dodds doesn't have the saintly demeanor of the Scoop mods.
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I think we are getting way too far in the weeds with this one. The way to win college basketball games is to have good players. Is wojo bringing in good players? Are the players that he brought in getting better? If yes, the rest will work itself out.
Damn, so succinct yet so true. The answer to both of those questions for me is I like the players he has brought in, and I like how they have improved.
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Damn, so succinct yet so true. The answer to both of those questions for me is I like the players he has brought in, and I like how they have improved.
I think this is an important point. There will always be grad transfers and Jucos out there, but being able to keep your own high school recruits and develop them is a very large aspect of building a successful program. Wojo didn't start out too hot in that aspect but I think he has grown. Only looking at his high school recruits his classes go:
2014
Sandy-Transferred
2015
Henry-Went pro
Haanif-Transferred
Traci-Transferred
Matt- Exactly who we though he'd be, certainly wasn't the gem of that class
Sacar- I think he's slightly underperformed, I certainly hoped he would have been a better offensive player coming off a red shirt year, but he will be a fourth year Junior and that is valuable.
2016
Markus-Stud
Sam-Stud
2017
Jamal-Potential
Greg-Potential
Theo-Potential
Ike- Question mark
No one from the 16 class is going anywhere, and every player from the 17 class averaged double digit minutes and has shown flashes of being good. Being able to keep them for four years and develop them for four years will be key. Along with the 18 class. Having a decent class sandwiched between a great class and a potentially great class, and being able to keep everyone is a big step in building a good program not just a good team.
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I think this is an important point. There will always be grad transfers and Jucos out there, but being able to keep your own high school recruits and develop them is a very large aspect of building a successful program. Wojo didn't start out too hot in that aspect but I think he has grown. Only looking at his high school recruits his classes go:
2014
Sandy-Transferred
2015
Henry-Went pro
Haanif-Transferred
Traci-Transferred
Matt- Exactly who we though he'd be, certainly wasn't the gem of that class
Sacar- I think he's slightly underperformed, I certainly hoped he would have been a better offensive player coming off a red shirt year, but he will be a fourth year Junior and that is valuable.
2016
Markus-Stud
Sam-Stud
2017
Jamal-Potential
Greg-Potential
Theo-Potential
Ike- Question mark
No one from the 16 class is going anywhere, and every player from the 17 class averaged double digit minutes and has shown flashes of being good. Being able to keep them for four years and develop them for four years will be key. Along with the 18 class. Having a decent class sandwiched between a great class and a potentially great class, and being able to keep everyone is a big step in building a good program not just a good team.
I dont disagree with the relative ratings...but I would actually change your stud's to potential. Here is my rationale - when I think stud, I think of stars that can take over the game consistently - Jimmy Butler, Jae, Wes (sr year), Dom (early career), Travis, Lazar....
They have the potential to get there, but today they aren't quite there.
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I dont disagree with the relative ratings...but I would actually change your stud's to potential. Here is my rationale - when I think stud, I think of stars that can take over the game consistently - Jimmy Butler, Jae, Wes (sr year), Dom (early career), Travis, Lazar....
They have the potential to get there, but today they aren't quite there.
Fair enough. I think the point I was trying to make is that the offense will be focused around them and they will be the first two names on the scouting report, they will be the faces of the team.
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My expectations for next year are simple:
March Madness (NCAA), not March Sadnesstm (NIT).
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Of course you wouldn't. Because you are, at heart, a negative person.
Rough way to go through life. Glad that's not me!
Go Marquette!
You said my previous comment was opinion stated as fact because you didn't like it. TAMU called you out on your lie. Rather than apologize for lying - or even admit it - you changed the subject ... to make a personal attack. Classic Ners.
Character revealed ... for about the 1,000th time.
Is it true that after you were banned, you went over to Dodds' board and tortured them for a year or so?
What happened? Why did you come back to Scoop? Did you run out of people to antagonize there?
Or maybe you get some kind of masochistic pleasure out of dealing with us - you like constantly being called on your BS?
You are a real piece of work 82. Saying we don't know what Wojo will be is an opinion. We have 4 years of data. As for TAMU's silly point that we cannot predict the future - duh. Yet in personnel decisions you rely on past performance as a predictor of future results. You won't find me saying fire Wojo now. I've said he gets next year and maybe even a 6th (so long as next year isn't a complete train wreck.)
Personal attack? Believe you didn't even rebut my original point and launched into your above hot take as the board's resident expert as an "observer of the human condition" saying about me "you are at heart a negative person...rough way to go through life."
I'm sorry in your sensitive world view, that you perceive someone debating against your points as torture and being antagonized. As has been the case, there are about 6 posters who argue equally loudly, and vociferously against my points here - just as I argue my own. Sure, you guys cattle heard together and try to get me banned, and complain to the moderators, probably even resort to using the "report to moderator" feature. Never once have I used that. Never once have I put any of you on ignore. You know why? Because I'm an adult, and despite having philosophical disagreements over Wojo - I don't find it torture or antagonistic to read an alternative viewpoint.
Is it that difficult for you to be open-minded and tolerant?
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He was banned there multiple times as well, and quickly. Dodds doesn't have the saintly demeanor of the Scoop mods.
Did he blame other posters for his banishment there as well?
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Who will be here come September?
How will Sam recover from Surgery?
How will GE recover from Surgery?
How will Joey recover from Surgery?
How will transfer in?
Who will be the PG?
Until these questions are answered, impossible to predict how our season will play out.
I looked for basketball players named How, I didn't find any. Who is this guy? How was How at his last stop?
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You are a real piece of work 82. Saying we don't know what Wojo will be is an opinion. We have 4 years of data. As for TAMU's silly point that we cannot predict the future - duh. Yet in personnel decisions you rely on past performance as a predictor of future results. You won't find me saying fire Wojo now. I've said he gets next year and maybe even a 6th (so long as next year isn't a complete train wreck.)
This is truly terrifying. You honestly don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.
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You are a real piece of work 82. Saying we don't know what Wojo will be is an opinion. We have 4 years of data. As for TAMU's silly point that we cannot predict the future - duh. Yet in personnel decisions you rely on past performance as a predictor of future results. You won't find me saying fire Wojo now. I've said he gets next year and maybe even a 6th (so long as next year isn't a complete train wreck.)
Personal attack? Believe you didn't even rebut my original point and launched into your above hot take as the board's resident expert as an "observer of the human condition" saying about me "you are at heart a negative person...rough way to go through life."
I'm sorry in your sensitive world view, that you perceive someone debating against your points as torture and being antagonized. As has been the case, there are about 6 posters who argue equally loudly, and vociferously against my points here - just as I argue my own. Sure, you guys cattle heard together and try to get me banned, and complain to the moderators, probably even resort to using the "report to moderator" feature. Never once have I used that. Never once have I put any of you on ignore. You know why? Because I'm an adult, and despite having philosophical disagreements over Wojo - I don't find it torture or antagonistic to read an alternative viewpoint.
Is it that difficult for you to be open-minded and tolerant?
Ners, my man, I think it's cute that you think only a half-dozen Scoopers can't stand the way you beat a dead horse in dozens of threads, revive the horse repeatedly (probably by making deals with the devil), and then beat the horse again.
Lather, rinse, re-beat.
Do you really think the mods are so blind and stupid that they need to have your dead-horse beating pointed out to them?
Did the same "about 6 posters" get you kicked off Dodds' site multiple times, too?
You'd think that the self-proclaimed smartest guy in the room would be smart enough to look in a mirror and say, "You know ... maybe it's me who needs to change."
But naaaah ... easier to think the rest of us are wrong, that we simply don't recognize the genius that is Ners.
Hmmm ... I wonder if you've already thought up your next alias for your next comeback.
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Lather, rinse, re-beat.
Typical Saturday when Mrs. 82 is away?
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I looked for basketball players named How, I didn't find any. Who is this guy? How was How at his last stop?
One must always take advantage of an opening to encourage others to watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg)
Thanks for the invitation to share this classic.
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This is truly terrifying. You honestly don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.
That was evident long ago, here he is just stating it formally.
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Typical Saturday when Mrs. 82 is away?
Why does she have to be away?
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Why does she have to be away?
Well, I suppose she doesn't... but the connotation at hand is a bit different when the Mrs. is around than when she's not, so as long as you're preceding your wife with a preposition and not a definite article, have at it.
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Well, I suppose she doesn't... but the connotation at hand is a bit different when the Mrs. is around than when she's not, so as long as you're preceding your wife with a preposition and not a definite article, have at it.
Mrs. 82 would kill me if she knew this conversation was taking place.
I think I'd better distract her by hanging some inverted pentagrams and 666 symbols in the tree outside our house!!!
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Ners, my man, I think it's cute that you think only a half-dozen Scoopers can't stand the way you beat a dead horse in dozens of threads, revive the horse repeatedly (probably by making deals with the devil), and then beat the horse again.
Lather, rinse, re-beat.
Do you really think the mods are so blind and stupid that they need to have your dead-horse beating pointed out to them?
Did the same "about 6 posters" get you kicked off Dodds' site multiple times, too?
You'd think that the self-proclaimed smartest guy in the room would be smart enough to look in a mirror and say, "You know ... maybe it's me who needs to change."
But naaaah ... easier to think the rest of us are wrong, that we simply don't recognize the genius that is Ners.
Hmmm ... I wonder if you've already thought up your next alias for your next comeback.
You should really take your act to Dodds board. It is the perfect place for pollyanna. Seriously. You would thrive there. In fact, you and Dodds, are nearly one in the same.
TSmith34 apparently thrives there as well. No doubt TAMU would as well. Dodds board is the board made for homers.
And yes - I'll gladly continue to debate opposite points to the "rest of you" (6). I do appreciate reading your hot takes from your middle school girls basketball team coaching experience, and of course how Kevin O'Neill and Wojo walked into the same program upon arriving at MU.
I look forward to interjecting this into future posts here: But, did you coach middle school girls basketball?
And by the way - please re-post where I said I'm the smartest guy in the room? That's your obsession and preoccupation with me.
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This is truly terrifying. You honestly don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.
I know the difference between a coach who has "it" and who doesn't. Saying "we don't know what Wojo will be," is like saying, we don't know if the sun will rise tomorrow morning. I mean, it is a fact, that we don't know that, but, we have pretty darn good evidence it will rise. The same with Wojo. We have 4 years of observation.
He's at best a mediocre game coach. Those types of coaches only get to Sweet 16s with elite talent. Sure hope he can make us Duke North and get the blue chips its going to take.
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I know the difference between a coach who has "it" and who doesn't. Saying "we don't know what Wojo will be," is like saying, we don't know if the sun will rise tomorrow morning. I mean, it is a fact, that we don't know that, but, we have pretty darn good evidence it will rise. The same with Wojo. We have 4 years of observation.
He's at best a mediocre game coach. Those types of coaches only get to Sweet 16s with elite talent. Sure hope he can make us Duke North and get the blue chips its going to take.
You just equated your opinion with the inevitability of the sun rising.
You truly believe your opinion is an honest to god fact. That is terrifying.
BTW, 82 coaches high school basketball now. In your eyes, wouldn't that trump your experience of playing high school basketball?
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You just equated your opinion with the inevitability of the sun rising.
You truly believe your opinion is an honest to god fact. That is terrifying.
BTW, 82 coaches high school basketball now. In your eyes, wouldn't that trump your experience of playing high school basketball?
not unless 82 has a 40 inch vert.
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You should really take your act to Dodds board. It is the perfect place for pollyanna. Seriously. You would thrive there. In fact, you and Dodds, are nearly one in the same.
TSmith34 apparently thrives there as well. No doubt TAMU would as well. Dodds board is the board made for homers.
And yes - I'll gladly continue to debate opposite points to the "rest of you" (6). I do appreciate reading your hot takes from your middle school girls basketball team coaching experience, and of course how Kevin O'Neill and Wojo walked into the same program upon arriving at MU.
I look forward to interjecting this into future posts here: But, did you coach middle school girls basketball?
And by the way - please re-post where I said I'm the smartest guy in the room? That's your obsession and preoccupation with me.
Keep listing everybody who can't hang with you, Ners. You will name about 95% Scoop - 95% of whom know more about basketball than you ever will and 100% of whom are less obnoxious.
Work on the next screen name, buddy. It's only a matter of time.
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Dan Hurley, Eric Musselman, and Nate Oats are all coaches that we could have had a chance at if we were being proactive. All of whom I'm CONVINCED are lightyears better head coaches than Wojo.
As for convincing them to come here? Salary, arena, Chicago pipeline, salary, attendance, Big East, salary?
This is really not that hard. I also believe MU could have had a better COACH upon Wojo's original hiring, but his and the athletics department's sole objective at that time was to clean up the program so that we could exist in the Catholic 10 alongside Cooley and Wright. Because, let's face it, Buzz was could coach a basketball team, but he was going to stick out in the C10 like a pig in Church.
URI, Nevada, and Buff cannot touch us in any of those areas.
Looks like y'boy Musselman can't defend a ball screen either...
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You should really take your act to Dodds board. It is the perfect place for pollyanna. Seriously. You would thrive there. In fact, you and Dodds, are nearly one in the same.
TSmith34 apparently thrives there as well. No doubt TAMU would as well. Dodds board is the board made for homers.
And yes - I'll gladly continue to debate opposite points to the "rest of you" (6). I do appreciate reading your hot takes from your middle school girls basketball team coaching experience, and of course how Kevin O'Neill and Wojo walked into the same program upon arriving at MU.
I look forward to interjecting this into future posts here: But, did you coach middle school girls basketball?
And by the way - please re-post where I said I'm the smartest guy in the room? That's your obsession and preoccupation with me.
It isn't a matter of this board or that board, Ners, its you. You're an argumentative, obnoxious, raging pud no matter the board. And despite you repeatedly being banished for that behavior from every single board you participate on, you'll never have the self-awareness to understand that its you, and solely you, that causes that.
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It isn't a matter of this board or that board, Ners, its you. You're an argumentative, obnoxious, raging pud no matter the board. And despite you repeatedly being banished for that behavior from every single board you participate on, you'll never have the self-awareness to understand that its you, and solely you, that causes that.
Got it. So, what do you say about yourself and the usual handful of 6 that oppose my viewpoints? What does that make you? Argumentative? Obnoxious? Raging Puds? What makes your viewpoints more valid, factual, informed, or right than my own?
I find it sad that as adult men, who graduated from Marquette, you and the usual herd (Tower, TAMU, 82, Sultan, Jesu84) get so bent out of shape by opinions that differ from your own.
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Keep listing everybody who can't hang with you, Ners. You will name about 95% Scoop - 95% of whom know more about basketball than you ever will and 100% of whom are less obnoxious.
Work on the next screen name, buddy. It's only a matter of time.
95% of Scoop is great. You fall into the 5% that, well, offer up hot takes such as Wojo and Kevin O'Neill walking into the same type of program upon taking the reigns at MU.
Carry on basketball genius.
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I find it sad that as adult men, who graduated from Marquette, you and the usual herd (Tower, TAMU, 82, Sultan, Jesu84) get so bent out of shape by opinions that differ from your own.
Just an FYI: Your opinions suck just as much as the usual herd's.
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Got it. So, what do you say about yourself and the usual handful of 6 that oppose my viewpoints? What does that make you? Argumentative? Obnoxious? Raging Puds? What makes your viewpoints more valid, factual, informed, or right than my own?
I find it sad that as adult men, who graduated from Marquette, you and the usual herd (Tower, TAMU, 82, Sultan, Jesu84) get so bent out of shape by opinions that differ from your own.
I've gotten bent out of shape by your posts? I wasnt aware. I don't think I've ever attacked you for your opinions. I've disagreed with them. I've called you out when you mistake opinion for fact. But I don't think that's getting bent out of shape. Even when you've called me an idiot, moron, clueless, thick skulled, and dense...that seems more like getting bent out of shape to me
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Just an FYI: Your opinions suck just as much as the usual herd's.
Hey, I herd that!
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Hey, I herd that!
(http://tarhearted.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54ee0f612883401157228001c970b-pi)
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You fall into the 5% that, well, offer up hot takes such as Wojo and Kevin O'Neill walking into the same type of program upon taking the reigns at MU.
I've had many discussions with others on this topic. Goose and I are two who disagree strongly on it.
Goose managed to discuss it with me and others without calling any of us morons or numbskulls. He also managed to avoid dismissing all others as idiots who don't even deserve to share a conversation with him.
Again, it's you. Look in the effen mirror.
Oh, and learn the definition of "fact" and "opinion," too. It will serve you well in life if you let it.
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Got it. So, what do you say about yourself and the usual handful of 6 that oppose my viewpoints? What does that make you? Argumentative? Obnoxious? Raging Puds? What makes your viewpoints more valid, factual, informed, or right than my own?
I find it sad that as adult men, who graduated from Marquette, you and the usual herd (Tower, TAMU, 82, Sultan, Jesu84) get so bent out of shape by opinions that differ from your own.
I don't bother to oppose your view points. I seldom if ever bother to respond to your repeated rants. What would the point be?
But of course you are right: it is everyone else's fault that you are repeatedly banned from multiple boards.
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Who? Haven't responded in ages. Haven't read anything that wasn't quoted. Sounds like somebody is obsessed about being ignored. All Glenn Close.
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Got it. So, what do you say about yourself and the usual handful of 6 that oppose my viewpoints? What does that make you? Argumentative? Obnoxious? Raging Puds? What makes your viewpoints more valid, factual, informed, or right than my own?
I find it sad that as adult men, who graduated from Marquette, you and the usual herd (Tower, TAMU, 82, Sultan, Jesu84) get so bent out of shape by opinions that differ from your own.
Jesmu84. You forgot the "m"
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Scoop's 1 millionth post should have been: "This is why we can't have nice things."