Our Future/MUBB

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The point is someone thought winning 20 games is a big deal. It's not. And hasn't been for a while.

I don't think it's a big deal per se. But you also don't see many coaches getting fired after 20 win seasons. And therein lies the problem this board has with Wojo. He's too good to fire, he's not good enough to really get anyone excited about him as a coach. Eventually, something will give, one way or the other.

[5DollarPitcher]

I don't think it's a big deal per se. But you also don't see many coaches getting fired after 20 win seasons. And therein lies the problem this board has with Wojo. He's too good to fire, he's not good enough to really get anyone excited about him as a coach. Eventually, something will give, one way or the other.

He's the Alex Smith of NCAA basketball coaches.  I have a close friend who is a big Chiefs fan and he, like much of the Chiefs fanbase, loved Smith because of the "good enough" that he provided.

I constantly told him that they will never win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, and they should start looking for his replacement as soon as possible if they want anything more than playoff appearances.

Lo and behold, the extremely competent management (contrasted with our content administration) drafts a young, high-potential, generally-under-the-radar QB when, according to the fanbase, QB wasn't really a "need".

I was on the right side of history on that one.  I'm on the right side of history here.

LET'S MOVE ON!!!

[wadesworld]

He's the Alex Smith of NCAA basketball coaches.  I have a close friend who is a big Chiefs fan and he, like much of the Chiefs fanbase, loved Smith because of the "good enough" that he provided.

I constantly told him that they will never win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, and they should start looking for his replacement as soon as possible if they want anything more than playoff appearances.

Lo and behold, the extremely competent management (contrasted with our content administration) drafts a young, high-potential, generally-under-the-radar QB when, according to the fanbase, QB wasn't really a "need".

I was on the right side of history on that one.  I'm on the right side of history here.

LET'S MOVE ON!!!

I’ll go ahead and say unless we’re hiring Cal, Wright, Bennet, maybe Roy, K...that might be it. We won’t be finding a coach who is going to win a national title at MU. And we aren’t hiring any of those 5. So fold the program?

I’d love Wojo to be Alex Smith. The good thing about coaches is they by and large don’t get injured, and when they do it doesn’t prevent them from being successful. Alex Smith went 13-3 in SF and then started 6-2-1 before injuring his back. He also went 11-4, 11-5, and 11-4 in 3 of the 5 years as a starter in KC. Heck, he had the Washington freaking Redskins at 6-3 going into the Texans game when he shredded his knee.

[5DollarPitcher]

I’ll go ahead and say unless we’re hiring Cal, Wright, Bennet, maybe Roy, K...that might be it. We won’t be finding a coach who is going to win a national title at MU. And we aren’t hiring any of those 5. So fold the program?

Well I'd argue that a Super Bowl for an NFL team is more akin to an Elite Eight (or multiple Sweet Sixteens) for a college program.  I submit, Marquette (and many other college programs) can likely only dream of a full blown National Title.

But there is a coach out there that could take us to an Elite Eight or multiple Sweet Sixteens.  Before you ask, no I don't know who he is.  But I don't get paid to know that.  There are several people that get paid a lot of money to try to solve that riddle.

The Alex Smith thing was an analogy.  It's not meant to be a literal 1-for-1.  The point is that a portion of the Chiefs fanbase (analogous to Projos) was content, but management (analogous to our admin) recognized that the franchise had a higher ceiling and acted fast.  It worked out great.

You've just admitted that you would have been in the portion happy with Alex Smith (and likely criticizing the Mahomes pick).  Congratulations, you're on the wrong side of history even when you know how it ends...

[MU82]

Fire Wojo! Hire Mahomes!

I’m on board.

Now, instead of wasting your time on Scoop, please initiate correspondence with Lovell and keep haranguing him until he fires Wojo and hires Majomes.

[wadesworld]

Well I'd argue that a Super Bowl for an NFL team is more akin to an Elite Eight (or multiple Sweet Sixteens) for a college program.  I submit, Marquette (and many other college programs) can likely only dream of a full blown National Title.

But there is a coach out there that could take us to an Elite Eight or multiple Sweet Sixteens.  Before you ask, no I don't know who he is.  But I don't get paid to know that.  There are several people that get paid a lot of money to try to solve that riddle.

The Alex Smith thing was an analogy.  It's not meant to be a literal 1-for-1.  The point is that a portion of the Chiefs fanbase (analogous to Projos) was content, but management (analogous to our admin) recognized that the franchise had a higher ceiling and acted fast.  It worked out great.

I am certain there are people who would do better than Wojo has at MU. I am also certain that even those who are paid to decide who that person is have 0 way of knowing for sure. Wojo needs to be better down the stretch of seasons. I expect he will.

[5DollarPitcher]

Fire Wojo! Hire Mahomes!

I’m on board.

Now, instead of wasting your time on Scoop, please initiate correspondence with Lovett and keep haranguing him until he fires Wojo and hires Majomes.

Students have sent open letters to MUBB and Lovell multiple times the past couple of years.  Might as well be tossing them into the abyss.

Step 1 is identifying that we have a ceiling with Wojo, and the ceiling is lower than it should be.  We can try our hand at Step 2 once Step 1 has been addressed.

[5DollarPitcher]

I am certain there are people who would do better than Wojo has at MU. I am also certain that even those who are paid to decide who that person is have 0 way of knowing for sure. Wojo needs to be better down the stretch of seasons. I expect he will.

Thank you for a rational response Wades (we can get along!).  I'm only saying that Chiefs fans likely would have said the same about their front office finding a QB.  I'm sure they're happy now that that they gave it a try.

[MU82]

Students have sent open letters to MUBB and Lovell multiple times the past couple of years.  Might as well be tossing them into the abyss.

Step 1 is identifying that we have a ceiling with Wojo, and the ceiling is lower than it should be.  We can try our hand at Step 2 once Step 1 has been addressed.

Keep it going. University presidents always listen to 19-year-olds for advice on firing 20-win, NCAA tourney coaches who recruit well, run clean programs, and represent universities with class.

Happens all the time!

[5DollarPitcher]

Keep it going. University presidents always listen to 19-year-olds for advice on firing 20-win, NCAA tourney coaches who recruit well, run clean programs, and represent universities with class.

Happens all the time!

Funny that you scoff at my response to the suggestion you just made.

Also - wow!  A coach like that must have had some big time success at MU!  What's his resume look like if you don't mind me asking?

[5DollarPitcher]

Funny that you scoff at my response to the suggestion you just made.

Also - wow!  A coach like that must have had some big time success at MU!  What's his resume look like if you don't mind me asking?

I'll answer my own question:

K Crony - 358 years
MUBB Head Coach - 7 years

• 0 NCAA tourney wins
• 0 Big East regular season titles
• 0 Big East tourney titles
• .520 Big East all time
• 1 NIT Elite Eight (banner)
• 48 transfers out
• 4 losses to DePaul (most recently 3-3-2020)

[Its DJOver]

Let's take a closer look at that Chiefs analogy, but actually comparing head coaches not QBs.  IMO Andy Reid is a better comparison, consistently getting into the playoffs with the Eagles but never getting that Super Bowl.  Good enough to keep around, but not good enough to lead a team to the promised land (sound familiar?).  First two year streak of not making the playoffs in his career and his contract was allowed to run out.  Moves on to a new team and initially looks like it SSDD; consistently making the playoffs but never getting his ring...until he did.  Now, this by no means guarantees that Wojo will will his Super Bowl equivalent but it is precedent for a (good not great) coach finally getting over the hump.  Now, how long until people are convinced that we have 2012 Reid and not 2019 Reid?  IDK, some already are, others aren't so sure yet.

[Uncle Rico]

Thank god we have another thread to discuss Wojo. 

[5DollarPitcher]

Thank god we have another thread to discuss Wojo.

Quiet, you.  It's been several months.

[5DollarPitcher]

Let's take a closer look at that Chiefs analogy, but actually comparing head coaches not QBs.  IMO Andy Reid is a better comparison, consistently getting into the playoffs with the Eagles but never getting that Super Bowl.  Good enough to keep around, but not good enough to lead a team to the promised land (sound familiar?).  First two year streak of not making the playoffs in his career and his contract was allowed to run out.  Moves on to a new team and initially looks like it SSDD; consistently making the playoffs but never getting his ring...until he did.  Now, this by no means guarantees that Wojo will will his Super Bowl equivalent but it is precedent for a (good not great) coach finally getting over the hump.  Now, how long until people are convinced that we have 2012 Reid and not 2019 Reid?  IDK, some already are, others aren't so sure yet.

I love Reid as a coach, and he absolutely contributed to that Super Bowl.  But the main reason they won is because they replaced Smith with Mahomes (along with other shrewd roster moves).  Let's not distort the truth.

[Elonsmusk]

You erroneously crossed out coach and replaced it with recruiter. I assumed you were confused.

The rest of you post might make more sense if there was more than 2  or 3 posters (I'm counting all of Chicos' user names as one  ) on this site who have actually argued that "Wojo has the goods." From what I've seen, there are a significant few way off in NoJo land, next to nobody in Projo town, and a large amount of people in middle who can recognize that we have had is good but not great and wish it would be better. The problem you have is that you assume anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a Wojo worshiper. Not everything is binary.

Well 21 Scoopers currently think we will be back on top in 5 years with Wojo trending us toward Blueblood.

When you have a posting history of finding ways to rationalize and justify a coach's performance for nearly 5 years straight, that pretty much makes you a ProJo.  We all know the hardcore ones, Chicos aliases aside.  There were about 15 of you guys.  About 10 have jumped off.

As for binary, yes, I did think starting Derrick Wilson and playing him for 33 minutes a game with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino on the roster was a binary decision, just as it was for Buzz the year prior.  As it relates to a coach, in my view it is a binary decision - he either has "it" or he's "just a guy."  We have a "just a guy."  But, he is a good man, clean cut, brings "good" kids into the program.  We know MU under Wojo won't take risks on kids from the hood.  The hypocrisy is rich.

[Its DJOver]

I love Reid as a coach, and he absolutely contributed to that Super Bowl.  But the main reason they won is because they replaced Smith with Mahomes (along with other shrewd roster moves).  Let's not distort the truth.

Mahomes certainly played a large part, and there are going to be flaws anytime you have a cross sport analogy, I'm just saying that Reid fits the idea that a good coach that couldn't get it done (even with an elite player at the most important position), can eventually reach the heights that all aspire to. 

[WarriorDad]

He's the Alex Smith of NCAA basketball coaches.  I have a close friend who is a big Chiefs fan and he, like much of the Chiefs fanbase, loved Smith because of the "good enough" that he provided.

I constantly told him that they will never win a Super Bowl with Alex Smith, and they should start looking for his replacement as soon as possible if they want anything more than playoff appearances.

Lo and behold, the extremely competent management (contrasted with our content administration) drafts a young, high-potential, generally-under-the-radar QB when, according to the fanbase, QB wasn't really a "need".

I was on the right side of history on that one.  I'm on the right side of history here.

LET'S MOVE ON!!!

I cannot believe this analogy isn’t alcohol induced.

[5DollarPitcher]

I cannot believe this analogy isn’t alcohol induced.

The concepts are identical:  High floor, low ceiling guy keeps fans happy enough while not delivering (really incapable of delivering) what the franchise / program is really capable of.  Proactive action on the part of higher-ups proves to be genius.  It's not a literal 1-for-1, but the concept is the same.

[5DollarPitcher]

Mahomes certainly played a large part, and there are going to be flaws anytime you have a cross sport analogy, I'm just saying that Reid fits the idea that a good coach that couldn't get it done (even with an elite player at the most important position), can eventually reach the heights that all aspire to.

It took him two years to reach the mountaintop with an elite player at the most important position.  Wojo had an elite player at the most important position (in college) for four straight years and did diddly.  You're dunking on yourself here.

[Its DJOver]

It took him two years to reach the mountaintop with an elite player at the most important position.  Wojo had an elite player at the most important position (in college) for four straight years and did diddly.  You're dunking on yourself here.

And this is why cross sport analogies have their flaws.  QB is more important to football than PG is to basketball.  Professional is much different than college.  Before Reid got his second elite QB in Mahomes he had an elite QB in McNabb for his entire prime and continually came up short.  If you're convinced that all Wojo is, is a 2012 Reid that's fine, and while I'm far from convinced that he's 2019 Reid, I'm not ready to move on from him yet.  I still think he can improve and reach new heights here at MU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Well 21 Scoopers currently think we will be back on top in 5 years with Wojo trending us toward Blueblood.

When you have a posting history of finding ways to rationalize and justify a coach's performance for nearly 5 years straight, that pretty much makes you a ProJo.  We all know the hardcore ones, Chicos aliases aside.  There were about 15 of you guys.  About 10 have jumped off.

I don't think this is true. I can only think of 2 or 3 posters who have said that Wojo has been greater than his results actually show. Most that you label as "ProJo" are people who are optimistic that he can continue to improve and get us to where we want to go. This is fundamentally different from posters who have declared that Wojo is a terrible coach and needs to be fired. I've criticized the ProJos when they make ridiculous arguments just as much as I have the NoJos when they make ridiculous arguments. The difference is that there are a lot more NoJos.

As for binary, yes, I did think starting Derrick Wilson and playing him for 33 minutes a game with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino on the roster was a binary decision, just as it was for Buzz the year prior.  As it relates to a coach, in my view it is a binary decision - he either has "it" or he's "just a guy."  We have a "just a guy."  But, he is a good man, clean cut, brings "good" kids into the program.  We know MU under Wojo won't take risks on kids from the hood.  The hypocrisy is rich.

Ners, I know you think repeating the mantra of "I knew 10 games in that Wojo didn't have it" makes you a basketball genius. All it actually shows is that your initial assessment of Wojo was completely based on how much playing time John Dawson got vs. Derrick Wilson. During Buzz' last year, you turned into a caricature of yourself and your entire identity on this site was centered around your assertion that Dawson was better than Derrick. When Buzz left and Wojo came in, it was your opportunity to show everyone that you were right. If a new coach came in and picked Dawson over Derrick (as you assumed he would) and the team improved, it would prove that you were right and everyone else was wrong. Instead, a second coach in a row picked Derrick over Dawson, effectively ending the debate. Since you can't accept the possibility of being wrong, then it must mean that the coach "doesn't have it."

[5DollarPitcher]

And this is why cross sport analogies have their flaws.  QB is more important to football than PG is to basketball.  Professional is much different than college.  Before Reid got his second elite QB in Mahomes he had an elite QB in McNabb for his entire prime and continually came up short.  If you're convinced that all Wojo is, is a 2012 Reid that's fine, and while I'm far from convinced that he's 2019 Reid, I'm not ready to move on from him yet.  I still think he can improve and reach new heights here at MU.

Not sure McNabb was an "elite QB".... 30+ TDs once in his entire career.  20+ TDs five times in his eleven year career.  He was a good player, not an elite one.

[Its DJOver]

Not sure McNabb was an "elite QB".... 30+ TDs once in his entire career.  20+ TDs five times in his eleven year career.  He was a good player, not an elite one.

I mean, now we're way of topic but I'd argue that 5 straight pro bowls is elite.  Either way, we're both just looking at the same stats in different ways.  It is both true that Reid + Mahomes only took 2 years, and that Reid took 20 years.  IMO any further dive into stats and such would just further show the flaws in comparing NFL success to NCAA basketball success.

[5DollarPitcher]

I mean, now we're way of topic but I'd argue that 5 straight pro bowls is elite.  Either way, we're both just looking at the same stats in different ways.  It is both true that Reid + Mahomes only took 2 years, and that Reid took 20 years.  IMO any further dive into stats and such would just further show the flaws in comparing NFL success to NCAA basketball success.

Agreed - I never meant to get this deep into the analogy.