Fairytale of New York

[Pakuni]

1) it definitely is your logic, that's a real song called Celtic symphony by the Wolfe tones and given that you're saying politics should be seperated from the art then why shouldn't all the DUP supporters come join in my singing of that song?

What you're describing is provocation, not somebody enjoying music. It's a sh*tty analogy.
And no, I didn't say "politics should be separated from art." I said one's politics need not be in lockstep with the artist's to enjoy the art.
Do you do a deep dive into every band's politics before deciding if you like a song? Do you try to look up a director's political contributions before forming an opinion on a film? Does one need to be a communist to admire the works of Picasso and Kahlo.
Art exists in part to expose people to different ideas and ways of looking at the world. What you're suggesting is the antithesis of that - only people who think a certain way can access certain art. Gatekeeping.

o DUP or torry supporters listening to their music given they grew up in an apartheid-style state due to those parties.

What???

3) the whole mindset that you're arguing for is why punk became the crappy whiny songs about teenage breakups in the late 90s. Welcoming too many people who don't agree with the entire foundation of a subgenre so they decide it'll just be something else.

lol.
Ever heard of the Descendents? Screeching Weasel? Jawbreaker? Ramones? Buzzcocks? The Vandals? Social Distortion? Tell me about their whiny breakup songs.
Do you think punk rock pre-1995 was all left-wing politics and bring down the government?

[Galway Eagle]

lol.
Ever heard of the Descendents? Screeching Weasel? Jawbreaker? Ramones? Buzzcocks? The Vandals? Social Distortion? Tell me about their whiny breakup songs.
Do you think punk rock pre-1995 was all left-wing politics and bring down the government?

Descendants? 'Merican is pretty left wing

Screeching weasel? Ben weasel's a crapbag who punched a girl at a concert.

Social distortion? Don't drag me down is a pretty left wing song

The vandals? They had a whole album making fun of what would eventually become alt right culture.

Not a fan of jawbreaker don't know enough of their discography to speak on that. Buzzcocks you win that one.

Was punk rock all left wing before 1995? No as a whole. But it was considerably more counter cultural, anti commercialism, less welcoming to anybody who wants in and as such more politically left among its various subgenres. Arguably the most famous band of the punk scene from the 80s is dead kennedies, what do you think they're saying in the song "nazi punks f*ck off" it's not an art piece for them to interpret on the way to a proud boy meeting it's an on the nose rallying cry. What do you think the exploited are saying when they're screaming "f*ck the USA" or riot squad with "f*cl the torries" or DOA with "f*cked up Ronnie. These are stripped of the interpretive art you're advocating for they're screaming the point and you're either with it or get out.

What you're describing is provocation, not somebody enjoying music. It's a sh*tty analogy.
And no, I didn't say "politics should be separated from art." I said one's politics need not be in lockstep with the artist's to enjoy the art.

It absolutely is a fair analogy, because if your idealistic situation was held up then it wouldn't be provocation. people would just assume I enjoy the song and don't necessarily agree with the politics of it.

And I said I agree with that for 99% of genres, Taylor swift fans don't need to be lock step in line with her because pop music as a culture isn't a subculture built around inherently anti conservative values. Punk in the other hand has been political forever, it's interwoven into every subgenre except pop punk (and even then you get some stuff that's semi political once in a blue moon) you cannot have a counter culture scene and invite everybody to it. Thats what why when you go to a dropkick murphys show for the past decade when they go on a pro union rant or would endorse Obama they would get audibly booed. Because too many people come in for the music with absolutely no idea what the hell they're actually singing about.

Do you do a deep dive into every band's politics before deciding if you like a song? Do you try to look up a director's political contributions before forming an opinion on a film? Does one need to be a communist to admire the works of Picasso and Kahlo.
Art exists in part to expose people to different ideas and ways of looking at the world. What you're suggesting is the antithesis of that - only people who think a certain way can access certain art. Gatekeeping.

Depends on the genre. For a punk band? Yes I do and their background (ie avoiding anti flag's rapist singer or leftover crack's abusive singer). Because the music and scene is tied to social justice and politics. If I'm just going to an indie show at a bar? No I don't give a damn I'm there for the art because that's what the scene revolves around. Same with movies, am I watching a documentary on corporate influences on our food? I want to know who's funding this and who the director is. Am I watching a movie to escape the 8-5 monotony. Don't give a damn.

Don't give me that whole gatekeep Inc thing. If it weren't for gatekeep Inc any genre or classification couldn't exist whatsoever. The very concept of categories is a type of gatekeeping.

What???

Stiff little fingers is a band, they grew up in belfast when Catholics had to register with the state, were sent to specific cordoned off areas, subject to raids and had proportionally less representation in gov. The DUP is the torry aligned party in N Ireland. I said that I'd wager that Jake Burns would not want any DUP or Torries buying his albums as a better example than the Sex Pistols who were admittedly a weak example for my point.

[Pakuni]

Galway,

I appreciate your efforts, but you've intentionally misstated what I've written several times now, arguing against statements I never made. So, I don't see the point in continuing.
At least we enjoy some of the same music

One, two, three, four. Who's punk? Whats the score?.

[brewcity77]

First, RIP to Shane McGowan. Even though his early death seemed inevitable, and honestly it's amazing he lived as long as he did with the lifestyle he had. But damn, that's one that still hits hard. I found the Pogues through Dropkick after really only being familiar with Sunnyside of the Street, but they became a big part of what I listened to in the 90s-2000s. Fairytale is always the first song I cue up when it's this time of year.

But at the risk of ripping open a scab...

Arguably the most famous band of the punk scene from the 80s is dead kennedies, what do you think they're saying in the song "nazi punks f*ck off" it's not an art piece for them to interpret on the way to a proud boy meeting it's an on the nose rallying cry.

The reason Nazi Punks was there was because the punk rock scene was not exclusively left wing. In the late 1970s, into the 80s, and into the 90s there were a lot of hard right wing people in the punk scene as well. Punk and skinhead/oi music overlapped a ton. You had bands that were on the edge of the two, like Blitz and The Business, and others that went straight past the line into racism like Skrewdriver.

I agree that it was more counter-cultural, and that scene remained prevalent even into the 2000s, but it was all manner of counter-culture, not just left wing.

[Hards Alumni]

First, RIP to Shane McGowan. Even though his early death seemed inevitable, and honestly it's amazing he lived as long as he did with the lifestyle he had. But damn, that's one that still hits hard. I found the Pogues through Dropkick after really only being familiar with Sunnyside of the Street, but they became a big part of what I listened to in the 90s-2000s. Fairytale is always the first song I cue up when it's this time of year.

But at the risk of ripping open a scab...

The reason Nazi Punks was there was because the punk rock scene was not exclusively left wing. In the late 1970s, into the 80s, and into the 90s there were a lot of hard right wing people in the punk scene as well. Punk and skinhead/oi music overlapped a ton. You had bands that were on the edge of the two, like Blitz and The Business, and others that went straight past the line into racism like Skrewdriver.

I agree that it was more counter-cultural, and that scene remained prevalent even into the 2000s, but it was all manner of counter-culture, not just left wing.

nm

[Skatastrophy]

Yeah skinheads showed up to a Bouncing Souls + Dropkick show at the Rave Bar in like 1999 so they got their asses beat after they started crap. It was a real problem in the scene

[brewcity77]

Yeah skinheads showed up to a Bouncing Souls + Dropkick show at the Rave Bar in like 1999 so they got their asses beat after they started crap. It was a real problem in the scene

There was a Business show at Globe East and I remember Micky Fitz smashing his microphone stand into the face of a Nazi skin and it set off a brawl. I remember a bunch of fights outside an Exploited show there too. Dropkick was always particularly testy because you had everything from Nazi skins to trad skins to straight edge to SHARPs along with all the punks.

Wild to think back on how much fun I had in those days... 

[Galway Eagle]

First, RIP to Shane McGowan. Even though his early death seemed inevitable, and honestly it's amazing he lived as long as he did with the lifestyle he had. But damn, that's one that still hits hard. I found the Pogues through Dropkick after really only being familiar with Sunnyside of the Street, but they became a big part of what I listened to in the 90s-2000s. Fairytale is always the first song I cue up when it's this time of year.

But at the risk of ripping open a scab...

The reason Nazi Punks was there was because the punk rock scene was not exclusively left wing. In the late 1970s, into the 80s, and into the 90s there were a lot of hard right wing people in the punk scene as well. Punk and skinhead/oi music overlapped a ton. You had bands that were on the edge of the two, like Blitz and The Business, and others that went straight past the line into racism like Skrewdriver.

I agree that it was more counter-cultural, and that scene remained prevalent even into the 2000s, but it was all manner of counter-culture, not just left wing.

This is the first time I've ever heard Blitz being called out for straddling that line. The Business I can see it attracting that crowd but the seemed to me to be like Cock Sparrer where they played Oi and looked that part but werent necessarily a skinhead band.

The thing that you seem to be saying is there were sub genres that catered to each sub culture within the broader punk scene and that when one showed up at another sub culture's show with contradictory political values they were violently called out for it. So I do think it's more than fair to do the same on an online forum. If I went to a shrewdriver show with a BLM shirt I'd expect to get shat on and if someone went to a DKM show with an anti union shirt they should get shat on and similarly, if someone's calling people antisemetic for not blindly supporting Israel then they should get called out for crying over someone who spent years singing rebel songs (for a very comparable situation to Palestine) and advocating for a political party that's vehemently pro Palestine.

[Skatastrophy]

There was a Business show at Globe East and I remember Micky Fitz smashing his microphone stand into the face of a Nazi skin and it set off a brawl. I remember a bunch of fights outside an Exploited show there too. Dropkick was always particularly testy because you had everything from Nazi skins to trad skins to straight edge to SHARPs along with all the punks.

Wild to think back on how much fun I had in those days... 

That's funny I spent a lot of time at Globe shows back in the 90s. MU330, Housecat Sized Fennec, 5 O'Clock Charlie were all memorable and you're right. Never a reason to punch a skinhead because it was hard to tell what they were into on the face of it. The red/white laces on their boots were a tell, but that's about it. My buddy was a straight edge skinhead and was a real sweetie. But once the show kicked off the nazis couldn't hide who they really were for too long and they'd get their butts whupped accordingly.

Throwback for ya - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en8UtTEQHxM

[brewcity77]

This is the first time I've ever heard Blitz being called out for straddling that line. The Business I can see it attracting that crowd but the seemed to me to be like Cock Sparrer where they played Oi and looked that part but werent necessarily a skinhead band.

The thing that you seem to be saying is there were sub genres that catered to each sub culture within the broader punk scene and that when one showed up at another sub culture's show with contradictory political values they were violently called out for it. So I do think it's more than fair to do the same on an online forum. If I went to a shrewdriver show with a BLM shirt I'd expect to get shat on and if someone went to a DKM show with an anti union shirt they should get shat on and similarly, if someone's calling people antisemetic for not blindly supporting Israel then they should get called out for crying over someone who spent years singing rebel songs (for a very comparable situation to Palestine) and advocating for a political party that's vehemently pro Palestine.

More just that "Nazi Punks, F**k Off" was a reaction to a very real and very present segment of right wing punks in the scene. Sometimes it was met with violence, sometimes not. Like Ska said, there might be tells, or maybe not. It would become more evident in the pit, but not everyone went in the pit.

I think back to that They Might Be Giants song, "Your Racist Friend." Not a punk band, but going to shows and parties and suddenly discovering someone who was racist in the scene initially felt like a shock to the system, but eventually it was just something that happened. Or you'd run into people who were liberal seven ways from Sunday but had no problem with racist slurs. Ultimately, a lot of that was why I wasn't sad to leave the scene behind. The more time I spent in it, the more hypocrisy I saw and the less I missed it as I got older and drifted away.

I remember the first time I heard "Nazi Punks", the first time I was confronted at a show by actual Nazi punks, and eventually being at some of those parties thinking maybe that it wasn't them who didn't belong, but me. The punk scene always attracted people at the extremes, and suffice to say it was very white, so those extremes weren't just people wanting to tear down the system from the left. It's a big part of why that song resonates so much with me to this day. Because it reminds me of a lot of the disillusionment I eventually had with the punk scene. And now this feels like a therapy session

[Skatastrophy]

Thankfully the kids are okay, there are some pretty good intersectional bands these days. I'm going to a show at Schubas next month with a few hardcore bands including

Buggin (Chicago) https://youtu.be/43Zv2q-Opw4?si=-GCf7X5J9vPn3d5n

Enervate (Milwaukee) https://youtu.be/j4W-2wrxT_8?si=MlPpTnYDKpmgDhhI