WI Supreme Court Takes McAdams' Case

[GGGG]

  just an FYI-not saying this incident is at the same level as the missouri protests of 2015, but not many outside of the community are fully aware of the ramifications that episode had on the school.  today we are hearing about a fresno state college "professor" spouting off her opinions on the late barbara bush-RIP.  these incidents can have a  "boil the frog" like consequences that may take longer to re mediate. 

   i do not wish this type of result with my alma mater, however, i do hope MU learns from not only this incident, but others as well.  i am somewhat uncomfortable with MU's decision to go outside the traditions of having a jesuit as president.  i am even more uncomfortable with what i have seen so far with michael lovell.   many here want to minimize this mccadams case, and that may be your hopes that this does just go away, but as this ny times article informs us, "long afterwards...


 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/university-of-missouri-enrollment-protests-fallout.html

I don’t want that either but this is nowhere near that ballpark.

[jsglow]

OH NO!!! NOT THE GAYS!!!  THEY WILL PROBABALY TRY TO RECRUIT MY POOR LITTLE CHILD TO THEIR SIDE!!!

There's an interesting minority out there Sultan that has always thought MU ought to be the Catholic Wheaton College.

It's funny.  I have great respect for Wheaton generally.  Our son had given it some modest early consideration and we live very close.  Then I read the Pledge and was deeply troubled by some components.  Won't enumerate but DEEPLY troubled.  We made a decision as a family that it wasn't an option.

[Jockey]

Why would you send your child who you raised Catholic to a school that will not allow traditional marriage to be discussed in a class room that claims to be Catholic?

You are just sayin' stupid things, now.

There is no MU policy "that will not allow traditional marriage to be discussed in a class room".

[Jockey]

You might be conservative, glow, but you are rational.  We could use more of that.  Tip of the hat.

I disagree with him often, but he always has sensible reasons for his beliefs.

[mu_hilltopper]

2 of 3 Catholics support gay marriage.  (http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/)

I'm guessing if you removed Catholics over the age of about 55, that number would be 90%.

Only a sliver of parents sending their kids to a "Catholic" college are going to care about its stance on gay issues.

[jsglow]

I disagree with him often, but he always has sensible reasons for his beliefs.

Thank you.  Nice of you to say.

[GGGG]

Perhaps that is why applications to MU are down. I went on the MU website and on their diversity page the LGBTQ link is prominently displayed. I also linked to the Fordham site on diversity and no link to the LGBTQ community. I think it is one thing to respect individuals for who they are, but when a "Catholic" University actively supports the LGTBQ community whose values are in direct conflict with traditional Catholic values I as a Catholic will have second thoughts about sending my child there.

BTW Fordham...

https://www.fordham.edu/info/20913/lgbt_resources

https://www.fordham.edu/info/20915/lgbt_and_ally_network_of_support


I can think of nothing more anti-Jesuit than ignoring a segment of society that is part of your community.

[GGGG]

There's an interesting minority out there Sultan that has always thought MU ought to be the Catholic Wheaton College.

It's funny.  I have great respect for Wheaton generally.  Our son had given it some modest early consideration and we live very close.  Then I read the Pledge and was deeply troubled by some components.  Won't enumerate but DEEPLY troubled.  We made a decision as a family that it wasn't an option.

A "Catholic Wheaton College" would struggle to actually be Catholic IMO. 

[jsglow]

A "Catholic Wheaton College" would struggle to actually be Catholic IMO.

I know, but you get my point.

[muwarrior69]

Nope.  They're down because MU wants them down.  And enrollment is up considerably btw.  As to the rest of your point, we each are entitled to our opinion.  Culturally MU isn't much different than it was 30 years ago except that it's far more 'Naperville' (meaning affluent).

Well it is certainly different when I attended 50 years ago. I can remember Allan Ginsberg reading his very salacious poems at a lecture and the Q&A back and forth on how it challenged conventional attitudes of the day were just exhilarating. Was he or anyone else silenced because it may offend some group on campus? No. Many Jesuits at the time would let us debate how the changes of Vatican II would affect the church and if it ran contrary to current Catholic teaching at the time no one was silenced. No I do not want MU to make every student or faculty member to take an oath to be faithful to Catholic teaching; but from where I am sitting it seems MU requires faculty and students to be faithful to the values of the LGBTQ community or they are called insolent or are fired because they criticized someone with whom they disagree.

[jsglow]

Well it is certainly different when I attended 50 years ago. I can remember Allan Ginsberg reading his very salacious poems at a lecture and the Q&A back and forth on how it challenged conventional attitudes of the day were just exhilarating. Was he or anyone else silenced because it may offend some group on campus? No. Many Jesuits at the time would let us debate how the changes of Vatican II would affect the church and if it ran contrary to current Catholic teaching at the time no one was silenced. No I do not want MU to make every student or faculty member to take an oath to be faithful to Catholic teaching; but from where I am sitting it seems MU requires faculty and students to be faithful to the values of the LGBTQ community or they are called insolent or are fired because they criticized someone with whom they disagree.

Well, 69, it ain't 1968 anymore and we don't say the Mass in Latin either brother.   

And I'd disagree with your notion.  I'll remind you about the swift Sunday morning response to the mural or the Arts/Sciences prospective Dean situation.  Both fully appropriate in my mind.

[GGGG]

Well it is certainly different when I attended 50 years ago. I can remember Allan Ginsberg reading his very salacious poems at a lecture and the Q&A back and forth on how it challenged conventional attitudes of the day were just exhilarating. Was he or anyone else silenced because it may offend some group on campus? No. Many Jesuits at the time would let us debate how the changes of Vatican II would affect the church and if it ran contrary to current Catholic teaching at the time no one was silenced. No I do not want MU to make every student or faculty member to take an oath to be faithful to Catholic teaching; but from where I am sitting it seems MU requires faculty and students to be faithful to the values of the LGBTQ community or they are called insolent or are fired because they criticized someone with whom they disagree.

What is your proof for the bolded?

[Pakuni]

Well it is certainly different when I attended 50 years ago. I can remember Allan Ginsberg reading his very salacious poems at a lecture and the Q&A back and forth on how it challenged conventional attitudes of the day were just exhilarating. Was he or anyone else silenced because it may offend some group on campus? No. Many Jesuits at the time would let us debate how the changes of Vatican II would affect the church and if it ran contrary to current Catholic teaching at the time no one was silenced. No I do not want MU to make every student or faculty member to take an oath to be faithful to Catholic teaching; but from where I am sitting it seems MU requires faculty and students to be faithful to the values of the LGBTQ community or they are called insolent or are fired because they criticized someone with whom they disagree.

What are the values of the LGBTQ community of which you speak?

[Jockey]

Thank you.  Nice of you to say.

You tend to lean toward the reasonable end of the scale; sadly, I lean toward the reactive side too often.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

One of several reasons my 17 year is highly interested in Marquette is especially because it's not in-your-face Catholic and the openness of discussion. She also likes the idea of attending mass in a place like Joan of Arc Chapel.

[WarriorDad]

What I don't like is the continued bashing of our institutions.  We seem to pick and choose based our party or ideology, but accept it as long as our side wins.  That is not good.

Court decisions often go 5-4, 6-3.  That doesn't mean the minority is wrong nor does it mean they are right, it only means their legal arguments were not held at the same level as the others. The same goes for the majority.  There can be strong, viable legal argument supporting both sides of a position.  Legality is often not black or white and when I see comments that a judgment breaks one way that a person didn't like and therefore that means the court(s) are idiotic, or lack any moral authority is plain wrong.  Sometimes we have to take a step back from our bias and look at the broader picture. 

[rocket surgeon]

Interesting.  I see it very much the opposite, especially on the former.  You do remember Pilarz, yes?  The reality is that there may have only been 10 qualified Jesuits to choose from whereas there were hundreds of qualified and 'fully Catholic' lay candidates, Mike among them.

Look, I have several MU policy differences with Lovell.  I'm certainly not going to enumerate them here on scoop.  But I generally think he has a constructive vision for the university here in the 21st century and I especially applaud him for what is a far more aggressive agenda.  Honestly, I'd selfishly hate to work for him because I'd be sure to burn out quickly.  But from a constituent standpoint, that's great.  MU is run more like a business today focused on 'creating shareholder value' than at any point in my memory if that sense.

ahhh yes, fr pilarz...nuf said.

    ok, i guess what troubles me is the tendency(read knee jerk) toward political correctness at a time when i believe it has worn out it's welcome.  i appreciate your perspective glow, but if there were 10 qualified jesuits, i'm a traditionalist in that respect and that's enough choices for me

[4everwarriors]

Y in da world wood MU want applications ta bee down, hey?

[reinko]

Y in da world wood MU want applications ta bee down, hey?

My guess is the Office of Admissions would rather use their staff and resources to recruit more qualified candidates, versus what some colleges do, offer up a bunch a fee waivers and try to get every Joe or Jane with a 1.9 GPA to apply, so they can deny them, thus "increasing" their rejection rate, which in turns lowers their acceptance rate, which some idiots think this makes their college more prestigious.

[WarriorDad]

My guess is the Office of Admissions would rather use their staff and resources to recruit more qualified candidates, versus what some colleges do, offer up a bunch a fee waivers and try to get every Joe or Jane with a 1.9 GPA to apply, so they can deny them, thus "increasing" their rejection rate, which in turns lowers their acceptance rate, which some idiots think this makes their college more prestigious.

Unfortunately, many of those idiots hire people and whether we like it or not, prestige and acceptance rates do matter to some people.  Dismissing it out of hand isn't helpful either, nor is calling them idiots.

No one can deny some of the most prestigious schools in the country have very low acceptance rates.  I'm not going to argue correlation vs causation, but only pointing out this truism. The highest acceptance rate of an Ivy League school is 14%, most are below 10% as examples.  In a brief stint in New York (about 2 years of my career), I couldn't believe how many departments only hired from a list of about 30 schools because they felt the schools already weeded out the average in the selection process from high school.  That elitism is one of the reasons I left and headed back to the midwest. 

Don't discount that it is real and happens with regularity. 

The more important thing to note is the average acceptance rate of all schools is about 51%.  Kids can get great educations at any of these schools, and that counts most for me.  On the job front, it doesn't always work out that way when being hired in the first or second job, especially by firms that look at where the degree came from and nothing else.

[jutaw22mu]

2 of 3 Catholics support gay marriage.  (http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/)

I'm guessing if you removed Catholics over the age of about 55, that number would be 90%.

Only a sliver of parents sending their kids to a "Catholic" college are going to care about its stance on gay issues.

I'd be curious to know what percentage of those 2-in-3 Catholics attend mass on a weekly basis as opposed to twice a year.

[jsglow]

Y in da world wood MU want applications ta bee down, hey?

Asked and answered many times on the board.  Do your research.  Thanks.

[jsglow]

Unfortunately, many of those idiots hire people and whether we like it or not, prestige and acceptance rates do matter to some people.  Dismissing it out of hand isn't helpful either, nor is calling them idiots.

No one can deny some of the most prestigious schools in the country have very low acceptance rates.  I'm not going to argue correlation vs causation, but only pointing out this truism. The highest acceptance rate of an Ivy League school is 14%, most are below 10% as examples.  In a brief stint in New York (about 2 years of my career), I couldn't believe how many departments only hired from a list of about 30 schools because they felt the schools already weeded out the average in the selection process from high school.  That elitism is one of the reasons I left and headed back to the midwest. 

Don't discount that it is real and happens with regularity. 

The more important thing to note is the average acceptance rate of all schools is about 51%.  Kids can get great educations at any of these schools, and that counts most for me.  On the job front, it doesn't always work out that way when being hired in the first or second job, especially by firms that look at where the degree came from and nothing else.

This has been discussed at length in other threads.  Do note that the carefully evaluated new strategy has resulted in two of the largest classes in MU history, both of which reflect a stronger incoming academic profile, all during a time when Marquette's traditional recruiting territory is producing an ever diminishing pool.  So they got that going for 'em, which is nice.

[tower912]

I'd be curious to know what percentage of those 2-in-3 Catholics attend mass on a weekly basis as opposed to twice a year.

My wife and I are two.  Just need the one to oppose.

[Babybluejeans]

Perhaps that is why applications to MU are down. I went on the MU website and on their diversity page the LGBTQ link is prominently displayed. I also linked to the Fordham site on diversity and no link to the LGBTQ community. I think it is one thing to respect individuals for who they are, but when a "Catholic" University actively supports the LGTBQ community whose values are in direct conflict with traditional Catholic values I as a Catholic will have second thoughts about sending my child there.

I love MU, but it pains me that this is where we are.

Ha. That’s definitely not why admissions are down. For what it’s worth, me and several friends from the East Coast chose Marquette over other schools precisely because it had an open and non-conservative bent - typical of the Jesuits, who educated us out east. I got the sense that choice was similar to many classmates.