MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on January 16, 2017, 01:02:26 PM
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1. The first half was as good as MU can play. And yet, I always felt that it was due to good shooting, not running good sets.
2. Butler is a good team, a proud team. There was no way they weren't going to come out intense. MU failed to match it, particularly defensively.
3. It didn't help that every time MU did play defense in the second half, it was called a foul. Mmmmmmm, home cooking.
4. Drive, kick, make the defense react. It was what Butler did in the second half and what MU never really got consistently.
5. Needed Heldt. Playing small is not good against a physical team like Butler. They were already attacking the rim with abandon. With MU going small and every touch being called a foul, it was like watching 'avante and 'eonte on the floor at the same time in 13-14.
6. Fool's gold. All it really took for the game to change is for MU to stop hitting 3's. Need more driving to the rack and less stand still 3's.
7. No lead is safe. Until someone shows leadership when things go sideways, this will be the story of the season. No avoiding, no hiding from it. The 17 year old is the only one showing any right now.
8. Wojo was shown flat out telling the team that the game would be won by hard work on the defensive end. .The players did not execute. If the players don't play hard and fast on defense, don't help, don't sack up and take it upon themselves to stop somebody, all of the cool schemes in the world don't matter.
9. At the end of the day, MU lost to a top 15 team on the road. By approximately the Vegas line. The excruciating part was the manner of the losing. Coughing up big leads is ridiculously painful. Vasectomy without anesthetic painful. But MU's Achilles heels, help defense, defensive rebounding, lack of physicality, lack of upperclassman leadership, and settling for 3's instead of running offense, all bit them in the ass in the second half.
10. The easiest of the gauntlet games ends in disappointment. Get ready for two more painful losses before we get back to some winnable games.
11. Don't panic. Come off of the ledge. Breathe.
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They had to play small. The bigs were useless defensively. At least when MU goes small they can get another scorer on the floor.
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Shoulda been a W.
Could easily have 2 more wins on the record if we didn't blow games.
All in all, we were picked to lose, and we lost, but man it could have been soo much more.
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And one more thing. I thought when we left ESPN behind we were done with Len Elmore. Team him up with Brando and it makes Dickie Simpkins sound like Vin Scully.
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Only quibble is on the 3's--we were up 12 (I think) when we were 3 for 9; tear drops and hard drives combined with good defense
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Pitt, Seton Hall, Butler.
Frustrating.
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Too many 3's when cold today. On the road you can't expect to be able to just jack up 3's and keep a lead....
Refs sucked...Deflating to have 6 with 14 minutes left but they did it to both teams. All in all a loss to number 13 but 8 on the road...First half we showed how good we can be AGAIN....but need to put up 40 minutes.
FWIW I didnt think we had a good full 40 against Depaul either. Second half still sucked.
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Pitt, Seton Hall, Butler.
Frustrating.
Yep. Definitely frustrating.
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There is no reason with the amount of resources, support and history that Marquette shouldn't be a top program in the Big East. Why, after four years now, the program is still middle of the pack at best, is frustrating and disappointing.
There's a lot of basketball left, but if the team cannot beat the top programs in the Big East, we aren't getting into the tournament, and if we aren't getting tournament appearances, there needs to be accountability and responsibility as to why we are going on four years without an appearance.
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There is no reason with the amount of resources, support and history that Marquette shouldn't be a top program in the Big East. Why, after four years now, the program is still middle of the pack at best, is frustrating and disappointing.
There's a lot of basketball left, but if the team cannot beat the top programs in the Big East, we aren't getting into the tournament, and if we aren't getting tournament appearances, there needs to be accountability and responsibility as to why we are going on four years without an appearance.
Here we go.
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Blahblahblahbityblahbityblah. MU will get back to the top tier of the Big East. Just not this year.
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There is no reason with the amount of resources, support and history that Marquette shouldn't be a top program in the Big East. Why, after four years now, the program is still middle of the pack at best, is frustrating and disappointing.
There's a lot of basketball left, but if the team cannot beat the top programs in the Big East, we aren't getting into the tournament, and if we aren't getting tournament appearances, there needs to be accountability and responsibility as to why we are going on four years without an appearance.
Oh yay, let's strut out this misguided argument again!
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Blahblahblahbityblahbityblah. MU will get back to the top tier of the Big East. Just not this year.
This.
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Well, in one game we saw the best and the worst of the Warriors.
Allowing any opposing team to score 63 in a half is THE worst. Think about it. 63 points in 20 minutes.
OK. Moving on to the next game ...
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At least they didn't roll over, I see some fight in them. I don't expect too much more from this group this year. They just don't have enough horses, yet. If MU is in the same spot this time next year I will start gathering my torch and pitchfork.
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I think I'll go watch a replay of the Packers.
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Well, in one game we saw the best and the worst of the Warriors.
Allowing any opposing team to score 63 in a half is THE worst. Think about it. 63 points in 20 minutes.
OK. Moving on to the next game ...
Agreed. The first half was the most complete half of basketball MU has played this year. The second half was the worst. Eventually, somebody has to step up and make a play. Wojo used all 3 second half timeouts trying to get them to play defense.
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I think I'll go watch a replay of the Packers.
Ew, didnt need that pleasant reminder. What a terrible sports weekend. At least Northwestern took Iowa to the woodshed.
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Vasectomy without anesthetic painful.
That's kinda the feeling I have about the losses we have had this season.
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MU is bankrupt inside.Until that changes they will not win against top Big East teams.NO Power forward and no rim protector at Center.Luke played 23 minutes and had 1 rebound.Can't win.
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This game proved MU is what we thought they were. Great shooting at times, toothless defense, and bright young talent combined with frustratingly inconsistent upperclassmen. What it all adds up is a pretty decent team but one that's just shy of being a good team. Still, future looks really good and maybe we're still a tourney team this year during what is the last of the rebuilding years. Could be worse.
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Pitt, Seton Hall, Butler.
Frustrating.
Not just Pitt, Seton Hall, and Butler. Wojo's Year 3 teams have blown double-digit leads in SIX different games. That's not a "ref show" (which seems to be the default term any time things are going poorly). That's a pattern.
Pittsburgh: MU led by 15 with 18:49 left in 2nd. 8 minutes and 46 seconds later, it was tied.
Fresno State: MU led by 20 with 18:52 left in 2nd. With 24 seconds left, the lead was two. At home. Against KenPom's 140th-ranked team.
Georgetown: MU led by 14 with 14:30 left in 1st. The game was tied 7 minutes and 8 seconds later.
@ Seton Hall: MU led by 10 with 10:54 left in the 1st. Less than 6 minutes later, Hall led by 1. To say nothing of the late-game collapse.
Seton Hall: Up 14 with 9:20 to go in the first half. They were losing by 4:47. Also blew a 10-point lead in the last 4 minutes, and a 7 point lead in the last 46 seconds.
@ Butler: MU had a 16-point lead at halftime and an 18-point lead early in the second half yet nearly lost by double digits.
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Not just Pitt, Seton Hall, and Butler. Wojo's Year 3 teams have blown double-digit leads in SIX different games. That's not a "ref show" (which seems to be the default term any time things are going poorly). That's a pattern.
Pittsburgh: MU led by 15 with 18:49 left in 2nd. 8 minutes and 46 seconds later, it was tied.
Fresno State: MU led by 20 with 18:52 left in 2nd. With 24 seconds left, the lead was two. At home. Against KenPom's 140th-ranked team.
Georgetown: MU led by 14 with 14:30 left in 1st. The game was tied 7 minutes and 8 seconds later.
@ Seton Hall: MU led by 10 with 10:54 left in the 1st. Less than 6 minutes later, Hall led by 1. To say nothing of the late-game collapse.
Seton Hall: Up 14 with 9:20 to go in the first half. They were losing by 4:47. Also blew a 10-point lead in the last 4 minutes, and a 7 point lead in the last 46 seconds.
@ Butler: MU had a 16-point lead at halftime and an 18-point lead early in the second half yet nearly lost by double digits.
So why does this happen? Poor defense? Passiveness on offense?
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No senior leadership.
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Program has just fallen so far. sad. No one expects to win or cares anymore. everyones like welp we lost, we were supposed to on to the next one. we used to not just accept and be ok with L after L. and people are even saying don't panic if we lose 3 staright? what kind of garbage is that. What even is Marquette basketball anymore. weve lost ourselves.
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Program has just fallen so far. sad. No one expects to win or cares anymore. everyones like welp we lost, we were supposed to on to the next one. we used to not just accept and be ok with L after L. and people are even saying don't panic if we lose 3 staright? what kind of garbage is that. What even is Marquette basketball anymore. weve lost ourselves.
I love Marquette...I always will love MU and this loss ruins my day...But a couple of years out of the tournament and what is more than likely going to be an NIT this year (after having a coach leave the cupboard bare for Wojo) is not to be unexpected.
We are not Kentucky, Duke, Kansas....We have won 1 title in the last 40 years and gone to the final four a few times...We are going to have periods were we struggle and rebuild...Stop being dramatic
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So why does this happen? Poor defense? Passiveness on offense?
I think it's the counter adjustment. We get up and try to keep doing what we're doing. The opponent adjusts and we don't have an answer. Personally, this team unnerves me more with a big one than a small one.
I tweeted this just after the second half started: "While you'd think a 16-point halftime lead would be a lock, I'm not confident. Need to keep pushing at Butler, can't beat ourselves #mubb"
We settled too often for shots that were falling in the first, counted on turnovers that were no longer there, and basically did what we've done all season.
Wojo tried to adjust by going small, but we needed to attack the rim sooner and just didn't get enough makes to set the defense and stop the Butler layup and foul drawing show.
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Mo Watson just blew out his knee. Told McDermott "Im done, I heard it pop."
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I think it's the counter adjustment. We get up and try to keep doing what we're doing. The opponent adjusts and we don't have an answer. Personally, this team unnerves me more with a big one than a small one.
I tweeted this just after the second half started: "While you'd think a 16-point halftime lead would be a lock, I'm not confident. Need to keep pushing at Butler, can't beat ourselves #mubb"
We settled too often for shots that were falling in the first, counted on turnovers that were no longer there, and basically did what we've done all season.
Wojo tried to adjust by going small, but we needed to attack the rim sooner and just didn't get enough makes to set the defense and stop the Butler layup and foul drawing show.
That is still the main thing that concerns me about Wojo. I have been saying that since his first year.
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There is no reason with the amount of resources, support and history that Marquette shouldn't be a top program in the Big East. Why, after four years now, the program is still middle of the pack at best, is frustrating and disappointing.
There's a lot of basketball left, but if the team cannot beat the top programs in the Big East, we aren't getting into the tournament, and if we aren't getting tournament appearances, there needs to be accountability and responsibility as to why we are going on four years without an appearance.
Unfortunately, MU was bad when the conference changed just like they were good when they joined the Big East. When change happens a lot of recruits don't want to take the risk as it is their livelihood. Coaches jump ship to see what else is out there as seen with Buzz, Stevens, etc. Butler, Xavier, and Creighton came in good when the conference changed.
MU now needs to prove they belong and can get better year over year. Once the momentum starts to move in the right direction people hop on because they want to be part of a winner. This is why Nova winning the NC was extremely important. The Big East was able to show they could still compete and be the best. The year prior the young conference flamed out early which didn't help. That doesn't change overnight.
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Great offensive game, only seven MU turnovers. Marquette now owns the best offense in conference.
Butler made the adjustment at half to drive the paint, just like Nova. MU defense broke down on 70% 2nd half fg% by Butler and the Bull Dogs also converted 21-26 free throws in the second stanza as a result. MU now owns the second worse defense in conference.
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So why does this happen? Poor defense? Passiveness on offense?
Good question.... on one hand, it is positive that we are able to give ourselves big leads, but on the other hand, it is somewhat troublesome that we cant keep them. I watched about 10 min of the second half during lunch, and it seemed like the refs were putting Butler at the line on every possession. On the offensive end, it seemed like there was not a lot of composure. Oh well, onto the next.
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I love Marquette...I always will love MU and this loss ruins my day...But a couple of years out of the tournament and what is more than likely going to be an NIT this year (after having a coach leave the cupboard bare for Wojo) is not to be unexpected.
We are not Kentucky, Duke, Kansas....We have won 1 title in the last 40 years and gone to the final four a few times...We are going to have periods were we struggle and rebuild...Stop being dramatic
+1. Well said.I fell basically the same way, but do agree that Wojo needs to get the D figured out. That 2nd half defense was god awful, and whenever it seemed decent, we fouled. Damn shame.
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Why, after four years now, the program is still middle of the pack at best, is frustrating and disappointing.
Really? After 4 years of what? Wojo, who is currently in his 3rd year? Not even done with his 3rd, mind you, but right in the middle of it. Or maybe you are referring to March 30 of 2013, you know, when we were in the elite 8? Has that even been 4 years yet? No? This place is a joke.
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This team seems to collectively panic when it starts to lose the lead/fall behind. Instead of staying in their game, moving the ball and finding the open shot, they rush things, force up shots quickly and make ticky tack fouls on both ends. The first half was some of the best basketball they've played on both ends this year. When it starts to slide they don't seem to know what to do so it slides fast. What do they need? Experienced players who know how to win. Another year or two of maturity. Wojo is slowly replacing ok players with good players. Sam and Markus can be strong leaders on this team. Hard to be patient, but it's gonna happen.
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Mo Watson just blew out his knee. Told McDermott "Im done, I heard it pop."
Well, crap. I hate to hear that.
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Two biggest reasons this team blows big leads frequently:
1. We're shooters. When we're hot we're capable of big runs. When we cool off....
2. We're just not tough enough, mentally or physically. we need a JFB, a Crowder or a Vander.
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Really? After 4 years of what? Wojo, who is currently in his 3rd year? Not even done with his 3rd, mind you, but right in the middle of it. Or maybe you are referring to March 30 of 2013, you know, when we were in the elite 8? Has that even been 4 years yet? No? This place is a joke.
1. You don't have to be here. It is completely optional.
2. Other things happened during those four years. You probably should acknowledge that.
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+1. Well said.I fell basically the same way, but do agree that Wojo needs to get the D figured out. That 2nd half defense was god awful, and whenever it seemed decent, we fouled. Damn shame.
Quick whistles didn't help, but to go from 25 to 68 points between the two halves is definitely a product of reduced effort on defense. ALSO being in the bonus with 10 to go, and them finally making shots...but mostly no ability to stop the drive without being called for a foul...Brutal to blow it that way,but most people should have known on the road against Butler....that first half was not going to repeat.
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Great offensive game, only seven MU turnovers. Marquette now owns the best offense in conference.
Butler made the adjustment at half to drive the paint, just like Nova. MU defense broke down on 70% 2nd half fg% by Butler and the Bull Dogs also converted 21-26 free throws in the second stanza as a result. MU now owns the second worse defense in conference.
We have no answer for the "spread the floor and drive the basket offense." It also happened late in the Hall game too. I'm not sure why teams don't do it all of the time...
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We lost a game we were expected to lose.
On the other end, this could have been a W. we are still right where we thought we would be.
I honestly see the #5 or 6 team in the big east. We can score and keep close with everyone. Just can't close against the teams with experience and leadership.
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By the way Brew, good call on your pregame prediction. Nailed it.
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Either our second half adjustments are wrong or non-existent from the coaches ...OR the players do not execute the adjustments. Who didn't know a Butler would pound it inside the second half and speed up the game?
So.... so far we are not a second half team against best quality teams. Lots to learn. Can we? Can we ratchet up executable defense? We will see. Tough way to lose.
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Was interesting watching the second half while working out at MU. As MU was blowing the lead, students watching were saying variations of "wow we suck," and when it was over, nobody seemed surprised or really cared about the result.
The interest in MU Bball on campus has to be at the lowest point in a number of years.
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I swear to God I'll pistol whip the next guy who says "adjustment" without naming specific game tactics and what they'd do differently with the current personnel.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/10N23amujDMffi/giphy.gif)
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Not often that you get to see a team hit its ceiling in the first half and then its floor in the second.
Defense in the second half is the obvious issue. The style of reffing doing a 360 at halftime certainly didn't help. It was called both ways but I don't understand why reffing is allowed to change that much between halves.
Even though the defense is obviously weaker, I think the 2nd half offense was the true issue. When opponents go on big runs, we stop running our offense and it becomes Markus and Reinhardt chucking threes or JJJ driving 3 on 1. JJJ is a tremendous passer but when we get down he never seems to make the kick out pass which makes us so dangerous. I appreciate him trying to take over the game but he needs to do it with his passing, not his driving.
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Shenanigans. Again, Wojo's options as Butler is more aggressive getting to the rim, and the fouls mount.
1. Zone. With Heldt in the middle.
2. Man. With Heldt in the middle. Hope he catches lightning in a bottle again like SHU.
3. Go small, hope your guards can contain dribble and that your scorers can get hot again and outscore Butler.
4. Pressure a team that doesn't turn the ball over. When your guards are already getting torched.
Wojo chose 3. It didn't work. MU scored 39 points in the second half, but the defense was soooooooooooooooo bad.
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I watched about 10 min of the second half during lunch, and it seemed like the refs were putting Butler at the line on every possession. On the offensive end, it seemed like there was not a lot of composure. Oh well, onto the next.
I'll talk more about adjustments. Here's the problem I saw. As mentioned, Butler adjusted by driving the lane more. The refs called a really tight second half, which sent them to the line a ton and got them easy points. This killed us for two reasons. First, we started missing shots, which allowed them to get run-outs in transition and made it easier to drive the lane because our defense wasn't set. Second, the tight calls from the refs kept them on the line, got our players into foul trouble, and cascaded so they were at the line early and often.
Everyone is complaining about the defense, and I'll agree that the players should have done better, but the adjustment the coaches needed to make wasn't on defense but on offense. We needed to follow Butler's lead and start driving. Force the refs to call the fouls both ways. Get to the line right along with them, and try to get easier shots than the threes that were no longer falling.
Start scoring, start getting the defense set, slow down Butler's offense, hold on to the lead. We did that eventually, but not until the last 4 minutes or so when we had already given up the lead and it was too late. Zone wouldn't have helped because we didn't have the length to disrupt them. Press wouldn't have helped because Butler already doesn't turn it over and we were gassed defensively as was, we don't have the depth at that point to try to start pressing a team that doesn't turn it over. Going small didn't help because we weren't making shots.
The problem wasn't the defense, it was the offense. Or rather, it was the failings of the offense that led to the failings of the defense. Getting the players to drive and staying aggressive is what the staff could have done differently instead of allowing the players to continue settling for jump shots.
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Gonna have a rare disagreement with you, brew. The offense put up 39 in the second half. Yes, there should have been more drives and fewer 3's. But 39, with a 16 pt lead at halftime, should be enough. The problem was on defense.
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Gonna have a rare disagreement with you, brew. The offense put up 39 in the second half. Yes, there should have been more drives and fewer 3's. But 39, with a 16 pt lead at halftime, should be enough. The problem was on defense.
I mentioned in another thread, the defense was where it ended, but the defensive failings started on the offensive end.
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No senior leadership.
That could be part of the reason, but wojo and his staff of former players are responsible to instill in the players that leadership. Jjj, Luke and wilson are not his guys, what has wojo et al done to instill that leadership. Probably very little. By the way, isn't rinehart a 5th year senior, but nobody mentions his name under that leadership lacking.
The excuse of lack of senior leadership is getting old and lame
If wilson comes back next year, then he can be the senior whipping boy all by himself.
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To elaborate, Butler started the second on a 38-18 run. That's when the game was won. We were missing, they were off to the races and driving both to the lane and the line.
Sure, after that we held our own, started driving, and were competitive (and put up enough points to look respectable) but by then it was too late.
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1. You don't have to be here. It is completely optional.
2. Other things happened during those four years. You probably should acknowledge that.
1. Fair enough. Same goes for anyone who clearly takes no pleasure in watching the team play.
2. I'm still waiting to hear how Wojo is responsible for 2013-14 (can't wait) or how year-over-year and game-over-game improvement is a bad thing. 2.5 years of Wojo and we have a 50/50 shot at the tournament and basically a guaranteed NIT berth if we miss. I don't really know what else needs acknowledgement.
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That could be part of the reason, but wojo and his staff of former players are responsible to instill in the players that leadership. Jjj, Luke and wilson are not his guys, what has wojo et al done to instill that leadership. Probably very little. By the way, isn't rinehart a 5th year senior, but nobody mentions his name under that leadership lacking.
The excuse of lack of senior leadership is getting old and lame
If wilson comes back next year, then he can be the senior whipping boy all by himself.
Rowsey too.
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Willie, I include KR in my criticism. You can say lead, you can teach leadership, but the player has to do it. Did buzz coach JFB differently than Jamil Wilson? Why is one an all star and the other a d-leaguer? The player has to have the head and the heart.
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Butler swept us in all four factors. Just barely in the most important one.
eFG%:
MU: 56.9%
BUT: 57%
TO%:
MU: 10.7%
BUT: 6.1%
OR%:
MU: 26.7%
BUT: 33.3%
FTR:
MU: 31%
BUT: 52.6%
Butler's FTR was a little inflated by the fouls at the end, but I really think that was the biggest difference maker. FTR rarely is, but this is a rare exception IMHO
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If we had one strong big that could defend the basket we would have won. That is the greatest missing link. Wojo knows what needs to be done he simply is missing one major piece which apparently can not be developed with the folks on staff. I think we have some great shooters and the we can not expect more from our freshman.
There is still time but someone in the center needs to man up if we are to make it to the Dance. Hopefully we can address the power forward issue next year.
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Gonna have a rare disagreement with you, brew. The offense put up 39 in the second half. Yes, there should have been more drives and fewer 3's. But 39, with a 16 pt lead at halftime, should be enough. The problem was on defense.
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Again it's our underclassmen who show up to play. There still may be a chance to have a good season, but the program is heading in the right direction.
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I was in meetings during the game and didn't get to watch - at halftime checked the phone and was sad I was missing it - 15 mins later I checked again...
Anyone have the stat of how we have performed for the first 5-10 mins coming out of half across the season? Seems like it would not be a favorable view.
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Not surprising. Every time this team builds some momentum they fall flat on their face. Each year Marquette is moving closer and closer to irrelevancy. On selection Sunday we will likely be looking back at the pitt, seton hall, and butler games with pain. So close, yet missing winning players who can get the job done
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If we had one strong big that could defend the basket we would have won. That is the greatest missing link. Wojo knows what needs to be done he simply is missing one major piece which apparently can not be developed with the folks on staff. I think we have some great shooters and the we can not expect more from our freshman.
There is still time but someone in the center needs to man up if we are to make it to the Dance. Hopefully we can address the power forward issue next year.
Thought wojo worked with bigs at duke. And if we lack big to defend the basket, then that is on Wojo as he has been recruiting for us for 3 years now
His only big has been heldt.
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Thought wojo worked with bigs at duke. And if we lack big to defend the basket, then that is on Wojo as he has been recruiting for us for 3 years now
His only big has been heldt.
His first recruiting class was Sandy, but he also added Levin, who left when he thought Henry would take his minutes. His second class had Henry and Matt. Next year we add John, Eke, and Froling. He tried to add another big last year and lost out Washington, Young, and Gill who all would have been eligible now. It's just silly to say he's not recruiting bigs.
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Thought wojo worked with bigs at duke. And if we lack big to defend the basket, then that is on Wojo as he has been recruiting for us for 3 years now
His only big has been heldt.
When was the last time we had a strong big that could defend? MU has problems recruiting bigs for years. That is why we had switchables in the past.
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When was the last time we had a strong big that could defend?
Chris Otule.
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His first recruiting class was Sandy, but he also added Levin, who left when he thought Henry would take his minutes. His second class had Henry and Matt. Next year we add John, Eke, and Froling. He tried to add another big last year and lost out Washington, Young, and Gill who all would have been eligible now. It's just silly to say he's not recruiting bigs.
Did not say he was not recruiting bigs. Said it is on him if we do not have any yet. The lack of big defenders seems to be the big complaint here, along with blaming Fischer for our current performance.
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That is still the main thing that concerns me about Wojo. I have been saying that since his first year.
I hated the result, obviously, but as a basketball observer (and a coach myself, albeit at the middle-school level), I really liked Butler's second-half defense. They definitely played our 3-point shooters more "honestly" and we had far fewer open looks.
It took Wojo and his team a long time to realize they had to stop jacking up 3s.
I agree with brew that although it looks like defense was the culprit - and you don't give up 6,000 second-half points without it being at least somewhat the culprit - our offensive failures fed right into our defensive problems. That was doubly true when the refs changed the way they called the game.
I'm one of the bigger Wojo backers on the board, but it would be hard for me to argue that he wasn't out-coached today.
I still think we'll be a bubble team right through the end of the season. We will steal a game or two we are supposed to lose because our shooting will be lights-out ... but we also might lose a game or two we "should" win.
Beyond this season, I still think our future is VERY bright.
Go Warriors!
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As Harry Caray was fond of saying, "The big possum walks late". Our only (semi consistent) big possum on the court is a 5'10" 17 year old freshman. And on the bench? TBD, but our second half performances aren't exactly inspiring.
That said, hope is on the way on the court and Wojo is learning on the job. I'm mostly keeping the faith.
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I swear to God I'll pistol whip the next guy who says "adjustment" without naming specific game tactics and what they'd do differently with the current personnel.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/10N23amujDMffi/giphy.gif)
Strong chance you'd never have to pistol whip Wojo at half-time because he doesn't seem to grasp the concept just yet
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To elaborate, Butler started the second on a 38-18 run. That's when the game was won. We were missing, they were off to the races and driving both to the lane and the line.
Sure, after that we held our own, started driving, and were competitive (and put up enough points to look respectable) but by then it was too late.
MU shot 7-15 during that stretch (46.7% - MU shot 50% in the 1st half). Of the 8 missed FG attempts, MU got the offensive rebound twice and scored once. Butler scored 13 points on the possessions following their 6 defensive rebounds. IOW, they scored every time MU missed...but they also scored 16 points immediately following MU's 7 makes.
The problem was defense.
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We have blown a 18-point lead to Butler. We have blown a 10 point lead to Seton Hall. We blew a 15 point lead to Pittsburgh.
We can stress patience and process - and even the fact that our current coaching staff still has yet to have their first full recruiting class as seniors, not aided in any part by the transfer of Sandy Cohen (or Wally Ellenson, or Traci Carter, or Steve Taylor, or John Dawson, or Gabe Levin) - but the reality is, in today's collegiate athletics landscape, if you stay down long enough, it gets harder and harder to get back up.
I'm all for building things the right way, having the right staff in place, having the right student-athletes on the team, etc. However, if the team does not turn the corner, whether that be this year, next year or the following year (I honestly don't see any situation where a head coach is retained when he does not reach the NCAA Tournament when he has one of the largest basketball budgets in the country), then we are even further away because a new staff (with new vision on players) will come in and restart the process.
It took Tom Crean until his fourth year to return Indiana towards national relevancy. It took Buzz Williams, arguably, his late-second or third year, to make Virginia Tech nationally relevant. Tony Bennett got Virginia into the tournament in his third year - after the mess Dave Leitao left behind. Ed Cooley - third year. Heck, Steve Lavin took St. Johns to the
tournament in his first year after Norm Roberts didn't do it once in six years.
Marquette is not any different that any of those programs. In some cases, we are clearly more prestigious due to resources and history. Why, then, should our program have more lenient expectations in terms of once again returning to an NCAA tournament?
Is this an irrational reaction due to one loss? No - because this is not just one loss. This is a pattern of repeated defeat against programs that we should beat in order to get into the tournament. Because of Marquette's struggle, Xavier, Creighton and Butler have all entered the Big East and solidified themselves as the backbone - while Marquette, Georgetown and St. Johns have taken steps back.
If we want to continue preaching sunshine and rainbows, go right ahead - you have that right. I'm just saying that when we have lowered our standards to looking respectable against Butler (or Pitt or Seton Hall), then the battle has already been lost. We should not aim to be competitive against those programs, our goal should be to win every game against programs like that. I guess we just aren't there anymore.
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We have blown a 18-point lead to Butler. We have blown a 10 point lead to Seton Hall. We blew a 15 point lead to Pittsburgh.
We can stress patience and process - and even the fact that our current coaching staff still has yet to have their first full recruiting class as seniors, not aided in any part by the transfer of Sandy Cohen (or Wally Ellenson, or Traci Carter, or Steve Taylor, or John Dawson, or Gabe Levin) - but the reality is, in today's collegiate athletics landscape, if you stay down long enough, it gets harder and harder to get back up.
I'm all for building things the right way, having the right staff in place, having the right student-athletes on the team, etc. However, if the team does not turn the corner, whether that be this year, next year or the following year (I honestly don't see any situation where a head coach is retained when he does not reach the NCAA Tournament when he has one of the largest basketball budgets in the country), then we are even further away because a new staff (with new vision on players) will come in and restart the process.
It took Tom Crean until his fourth year to return Indiana towards national relevancy. It took Buzz Williams, arguably, his late-second or third year, to make Virginia Tech nationally relevant. Tony Bennett got Virginia into the tournament in his third year - after the mess Dave Leitao left behind. Ed Cooley - third year. Heck, Steve Lavin took St. Johns to the
tournament in his first year after Norm Roberts didn't do it once in six years.
Marquette is not any different that any of those programs. In some cases, we are clearly more prestigious due to resources and history. Why, then, should our program have more lenient expectations in terms of once again returning to an NCAA tournament?
Is this an irrational reaction due to one loss? No - because this is not just one loss. This is a pattern of repeated defeat against programs that we should beat in order to get into the tournament. Because of Marquette's struggle, Xavier, Creighton and Butler have all entered the Big East and solidified themselves as the backbone - while Marquette, Georgetown and St. Johns have taken steps back.
If we want to continue preaching sunshine and rainbows, go right ahead - you have that right. I'm just saying that when we have lowered our standards to looking respectable against Butler (or Pitt or Seton Hall), then the battle has already been lost. We should not aim to be competitive against those programs, our goal should be to win every game against programs like that. I guess we just aren't there anymore.
It's not that we aren't there anymore it's that we aren't there yet. The rebuild is still ongoing. Basically all of our upperclassmen, the guys Wojo inherited, don't have it. This is a year that we were going to be more competitive than the previous two because our younger players are developing--and we are.
I'm not even a Wojo apologist but this kind of fatalism is just silly. Getting back to the point you speak of--the kind of consistent success we enjoyed for about a decade--takes time to (re)build. Comparisons are odious.
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Posted this to twitter, and I think it's relevant to the discussion. Wojo is favoring his guys a lot in minutes distribution, but there is only so much he can do at some positions.
Buzz and the Henry Ellenson recruitment left us at a serious disadvantage this season for being a veteran team. Talent is there, as the season progresses they will pull it together, keep the faith.
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Why didn't we play some zone in the second half when they were basically running layup drills on us? I know Wojo is not a huge fan but we saw it last year and sporadically this year. That at least allows us to defend the paint a bit more and protect the guys in foul trouble. Yes, it exposes us on the glass but we couldn't have done much worse in that department.
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Chris Otule.
This response should tell you something about our ability to recruit bigs.
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Why didn't we play some zone in the second half when they were basically running layup drills on us? I know Wojo is not a huge fan but we saw it last year and sporadically this year. That at least allows us to defend the paint a bit more and protect the guys in foul trouble. Yes, it exposes us on the glass but we couldn't have done much worse in that department.
It is hard for me to believe that you would not change to a tight 2-1-2 zone and stop the lay-up drill. If they make all there 3's fine, they will not miss bunny lay-ups
which they were getting. MU players are not quick enough to stop that. Hauser, Reinhardt, and Howard for sure. JJJ as well, not tough enough. 63 points is ridiculous.
Something. Same as Pitt game.
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Why didn't we play some zone in the second half when they were basically running layup drills on us? I know Wojo is not a huge fan but we saw it last year and sporadically this year. That at least allows us to defend the paint a bit more and protect the guys in foul trouble. Yes, it exposes us on the glass but we couldn't have done much worse in that department.
I think we avoid zone for a few reasons, but I think it's largely because we don't have the length to run a zone. Effective zones are usually those teams where you've got 4-5 athletic players that are 6'6" or bigger (and usually 6'7"-6'9" on the wings). Butler was killing us on the offensive glass, going zone would have made that even worse.
Wojo tried to adjust by going with a smaller, quicker lineup when he put Sam at the 5, but when you go small like that and are getting called for every little slap foul, you don't really have a chance.
Personally, I still think the adjustment we needed was to attack Butler inside more, try to draw fouls ourselves. JJ made two FTs to open the half, then for the next 17 minutes Butler's attack mindset gave them a 14-4 edge in free throw attempts until Markus hit two with less than 2:00 to play. During that time period, we did the following:
4/15 on jump shots.
7/10 on lay-ups.
Butler was killing it inside during that period, not only going 8/12 on layups but also getting to the line 8 times while we only got their twice. We stopped hitting jump shots and didn't do enough to get the ball inside.
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I think we avoid zone for a few reasons, but I think it's largely because we don't have the length to run a zone. Effective zones are usually those teams where you've got 4-5 athletic players that are 6'6" or bigger (and usually 6'7"-6'9" on the wings). Butler was killing us on the offensive glass, going zone would have made that even worse.
Wojo tried to adjust by going with a smaller, quicker lineup when he put Sam at the 5, but when you go small like that and are getting called for every little slap foul, you don't really have a chance.
Personally, I still think the adjustment we needed was to attack Butler inside more, try to draw fouls ourselves. JJ made two FTs to open the half, then for the next 17 minutes Butler's attack mindset gave them a 14-4 edge in free throw attempts until Markus hit two with less than 2:00 to play. During that time period, we did the following:
4/15 on jump shots.
7/10 on lay-ups.
Butler was killing it inside during that period, not only going 8/12 on layups but also getting to the line 8 times while we only got their twice. We stopped hitting jump shots and didn't do enough to get the ball inside.
I will say this, the disparity of foul call "types" between the 1st half and 2nd half was breathtaking and why the NCAA can be unwatchable at times.
Yes Butler changed how they attacked in the 2nd but there are clearly demonstrable examples where the same action resulted in a foul in the 2nd half that was not called in the 1st. Marquette showed their immaturity by not adjusting to that.
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I will say this, the disparity of foul call "types" between the 1st half and 2nd half was breathtaking and why the NCAA can be unwatchable at times.
Yes Butler changed how they attacked in the 2nd but there are clearly demonstrable examples where the same action resulted in a foul in the 2nd half that was not called in the 1st. Marquette showed their immaturity by not adjusting to that.
I'm hesitant to complain too much about the refs. This game really reminded me of the National Championship between Duke and Wisconsin in this regard. In the second, the refs called it tighter and Duke adjusted by cramming Grayson Allen drives down their throats. Wisconsin fans cried foul (literally) and blamed the refs but the simple truth is Bo never reacted until the press conference, when he blamed everyone but himself.
When the calls tighten up, you need to be ready to adjust. I don't know why the style changed, but I mentioned early on in the half that a tightly called game really benefits Butler.
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Program has just fallen so far. sad. No one expects to win or cares anymore. everyones like welp we lost, we were supposed to on to the next one. we used to not just accept and be ok with L after L. and people are even saying don't panic if we lose 3 staright? what kind of garbage is that. What even is Marquette basketball anymore. weve lost ourselves.
You're right. You are owed so much more.
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You're right. You are owed so much more.
Heh, that bring up an interesting point. People do make it seem like we are "owed" something for being a fan when really, all it is, is a bunch of amateur players that work their ass off, we aren't owed squat. Hell, I dont think anyone on this site still attends Marquette, I may be the most recent person and I havent paid tuition in two years now.
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I'm hesitant to complain too much about the refs. This game really reminded me of the National Championship between Duke and Wisconsin in this regard. In the second, the refs called it tighter and Duke adjusted by cramming Grayson Allen drives down their throats. Wisconsin fans cried foul (literally) and blamed the refs but the simple truth is Bo never reacted until the press conference, when he blamed everyone but himself.
When the calls tighten up, you need to be ready to adjust. I don't know why the style changed, but I mentioned early on in the half that a tightly called game really benefits Butler.
I don't disagree at all really. I was trying to make two separate points: 1. the officiating got bad and generally is pretty bad in the NCAA and 2. The team wasn't mature enough to handle that reality.
I hate the officiating but it certainly isn't why we lost.