MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: dad's couch on April 17, 2019, 12:51:40 PM
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I love all the anti Wojo hate. Maybe if he wasn't too busy stealing your girlfriends and kicking your dogs he would have won 6 NCCA Tournaments in the five years he was here. Here's the reality. He took over a program with 7.5 players. They were very good, solid DI players but not great. Sandy was the only recruit. Great kid but no one I know was sad to see he go. Fortunately he had a very nice career close to home and seems happy. He deserves that because he's a great kid.
So he took over a program somewhat stripped of players and talent. As all of your experts know, most recruiting happens before a kid's senior year. So Wojo really has to wait for year 3 for his recruits to start coming in. But he was able to keep the program a float and attractive to kids like Sam and Markus and we made the tournament in year 3. Last year we stepped back but we also had a horribly young team. Plus Greg was playing hurt for most of the 2nd half. Still made a nice run in the NIT to set us up for this year.
Even with the epic collapse at the end. We were still a top 20 team in terms of seeding in the tournament. No one knows for sure what happened and those who do aren't talking. But this time last week we were a consensus top 10 team heading in to next season. It was due to the program Wojo built. Now the Hausers left. Again. No one here knows why and those who do aren't talking. Maybe it's Wojo's fault. Maybe it's some players' fault. Whatever the reason. It happened.
Gets me to the point. The transfers gave the fire Wojo crowd more ammunition. But here's reality check number 1. Wojo isn't getting fired. Why? Because getting rid of him and his staff, probably paying a buyout and hiring a new coach and staff will cost close to $5 or $6 million. If the Athletic Department has that money available you don't think they could have come up with $500,000 more to keep Coach Kreiger?
Now reality check #2. Who are you going to replace him with that can do even as good of job as Wojo has done? He's 97-69 and 43 - 73 in BE play and 2 NCAA appearances. And yes I know he hasn't won a game in the tournament. To say getting rid of Wojo will make us a consistent Sweet 16 program is naive, stupid or both. Here's a list of programs that hired coaches the same year we hired Wojo, their overall record, conference record and tournament appearances/success. Figure these were our best candidates
Wojo 97-69 43-47 2 NCAA app no wins NIT qtrs
Auburn - Bruce Pearl 100-72 40 -50 2 NCAA app FF this year out 1st round last year - Coming off show cause
BC - Jim Christian 62-100 18-72 1 NIT appearances
Cal -Cuonzo Martin (now at Mizzou and combined stats) 97-69 44-45 1 NCAA app GONE but at
Houston - Kelvin Sampson 116-52 58-32 2 NCAA apps 3 wins Coming off 5 yr show cause
Mizzou - Kim Anderson lasted 2 years 27 -68 GONE
Ore St. Wayne Tinkle 75-83 35 -55 1 NCAA GONE
Tenn - Donnie Tyndall Fired before finishing his 1st season GONE
Wake - Danny Manning 103-122 24 - 66 1 NCAA app (1st four) and coming off consecutive 11-20 seasons
Wash St. Ernie Kent 27-68 22-68 GONE
Best 2 are Sampson and Pearl. Both coming off show cause penalties and won 1 NCAA Tournament game between them heading in to this season. Might I add Auburn is also on the FBI tapes so Pearl's wins may be adjusted at a future time.
I also looked at the following season coaching hires because maybe these guys could have been candidates.
Alabama Avery Johnson 75-62 34-38 1 1 NCAA app - GONE
AZ State - Bobby Hurley 73-58 32-40 2NCAA app (1 was first 4) 0 wins
DePaul - Leitao 106-116 46-74
Florida - Mike White 89-53 43-29 3 NCAA 5 Tourn wins
IA State - Mike Prohm 83-53 35-37 3 NCAAs 3 wins
Miss St - Ben Howland 78-56 32-40 1 NCAA app
Nevada - Eric Musselman 110-34 52-17 3 NCAAs 2 wins -
St. Johns - Chris Mullin 59-73 20 -52 1 NCAA (first four)
Tenn - Rick Barnes 88-50 42-30 2 NCAA Tournaments 3 wins GONE
Texas - Shaka Smart 71-66 31-42 2 NCAA App 0 wins NIT Champs Mo Bomba on FBI wiretaps
Best hires. Probably White, Musselman or Barnes. But Musseilman was a reach only a Nevada like school would make. White inherited a great program from Donovan but has only won his first round game the past 2 years including losing as 3 seed in the round of 32. Barnes was at Texas when Buzz quit and doubt he would have been available unless he knew he was gone the following year. The best hire probably was Ark Little Rock who hired Chris Beard from D II Angelo St. Imagine what his board would have been if we hired a DII coach who lost in the 3rd round.
What I am trying to say. This program can be in much worst shape than it currently is even with the Hausers leaving. There's more BC's, Wake's and DePaul's out there than Houston or Auburn. To flippantly say fire the coach and we will be great is just stupid.
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Reality Check: You don't have sources, therefore you don't know what went on behind closed doors. There are a hand full of people who do have sources, and do know what took place behind closed doors. Some of the people who have sources have been kind enough to post on scoop and have said this is not on Markus, this is not on the Hauser's, this is solely on an extremely stubborn coach.
PS: we're lucky Stan is on staff, without him we wouldn't even be able to field a freaking team at this point.
Also, how many of the schools you listed above spends what Marquette spends on college basketball...reality check = NOT MANY.
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Agreed.
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I love all the anti Wojo hate. Maybe if he wasn't too busy stealing your girlfriends and kicking your dogs he would have won 6 NCCA Tournaments in the five years he was here. Here's the reality. He took over a program with 7.5 players. They were very good, solid DI players but not great. Sandy was the only recruit. Great kid but no one I know was sad to see he go. Fortunately he had a very nice career close to home and seems happy. He deserves that because he's a great kid.
So he took over a program somewhat stripped of players and talent. As all of your experts know, most recruiting happens before a kid's senior year. So Wojo really has to wait for year 3 for his recruits to start coming in. But he was able to keep the program a float and attractive to kids like Sam and Markus and we made the tournament in year 3. Last year we stepped back but we also had a horribly young team. Plus Greg was playing hurt for most of the 2nd half. Still made a nice run in the NIT to set us up for this year.
Even with the epic collapse at the end. We were still a top 20 team in terms of seeding in the tournament. No one knows for sure what happened and those who do aren't talking. But this time last week we were a consensus top 10 team heading in to next season. It was due to the program Wojo built. Now the Hausers left. Again. No one here knows why and those who do aren't talking. Maybe it's Wojo's fault. Maybe it's some players' fault. Whatever the reason. It happened.
Gets me to the point. The transfers gave the fire Wojo crowd more ammunition. But here's reality check number 1. Wojo isn't getting fired. Why? Because getting rid of him and his staff, probably paying a buyout and hiring a new coach and staff will cost close to $5 or $6 million. If the Athletic Department has that money available you don't think they could have come up with $500,000 more to keep Coach Kreiger?
Now reality check #2. Who are you going to replace him with that can do even as good of job as Wojo has done? He's 97-69 and 43 - 73 in BE play and 2 NCAA appearances. And yes I know he hasn't won a game in the tournament. To say getting rid of Wojo will make us a consistent Sweet 16 program is naive, stupid or both. Here's a list of programs that hired coaches the same year we hired Wojo, their overall record, conference record and tournament appearances/success. Figure these were our best candidates
Wojo 97-69 43-47 2 NCAA app no wins NIT qtrs
Auburn - Bruce Pearl 100-72 40 -50 2 NCAA app FF this year out 1st round last year - Coming off show cause
BC - Jim Christian 62-100 18-72 1 NIT appearances
Cal -Cuonzo Martin (now at Mizzou and combined stats) 97-69 44-45 1 NCAA app GONE but at
Houston - Kelvin Sampson 116-52 58-32 2 NCAA apps 3 wins Coming off 5 yr show cause
Mizzou - Kim Anderson lasted 2 years 27 -68 GONE
Ore St. Wayne Tinkle 75-83 35 -55 1 NCAA GONE
Tenn - Donnie Tyndall Fired before finishing his 1st season GONE
Wake - Danny Manning 103-122 24 - 66 1 NCAA app (1st four) and coming off consecutive 11-20 seasons
Wash St. Ernie Kent 27-68 22-68 GONE
Best 2 are Sampson and Pearl. Both coming off show cause penalties and won 1 NCAA Tournament game between them heading in to this season. Might I add Auburn is also on the FBI tapes so Pearl's wins may be adjusted at a future time.
I also looked at the following season coaching hires because maybe these guys could have been candidates.
Alabama Avery Johnson 75-62 34-38 1 1 NCAA app - GONE
AZ State - Bobby Hurley 73-58 32-40 2NCAA app (1 was first 4) 0 wins
DePaul - Leitao 106-116 46-74
Florida - Mike White 89-53 43-29 3 NCAA 5 Tourn wins
IA State - Mike Prohm 83-53 35-37 3 NCAAs 3 wins
Miss St - Ben Howland 78-56 32-40 1 NCAA app
Nevada - Eric Musselman 110-34 52-17 3 NCAAs 2 wins -
St. Johns - Chris Mullin 59-73 20 -52 1 NCAA (first four)
Tenn - Rick Barnes 88-50 42-30 2 NCAA Tournaments 3 wins GONE
Texas - Shaka Smart 71-66 31-42 2 NCAA App 0 wins NIT Champs Mo Bomba on FBI wiretaps
Best hires. Probably White, Musselman or Barnes. But Musseilman was a reach only a Nevada like school would make. White inherited a great program from Donovan but has only won his first round game the past 2 years including losing as 3 seed in the round of 32. Barnes was at Texas when Buzz quit and doubt he would have been available unless he knew he was gone the following year. The best hire probably was Ark Little Rock who hired Chris Beard from D II Angelo St. Imagine what his board would have been if we hired a DII coach who lost in the 3rd round.
What I am trying to say. This program can be in much worst shape than it currently is even with the Hausers leaving. There's more BC's, Wake's and DePaul's out there than Houston or Auburn. To flippantly say fire the coach and we will be great is just stupid.
Ah, yes. The old tried and true, "it could be a whole lot worse" excuse. This commercial was paid for by Friends of Wojo.
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Reality Check: You don't have sources, therefore you don't know what went on behind closed doors. There are a hand full of people who do have sources, and do know what took place behind closed doors. Some of the people who have sources have been kind enough to post on scoop and have said this is not on Markus, this is not on the Hauser's, this is solely on an extremely stubborn coach.
PS: we're lucky Stan is on staff, without him we wouldn't even be able to field a freaking team at this point.
Also, how many of the schools you listed above spends what Marquette spends on college basketball...reality check = NOT MANY.
Are there people on this board saying this is not, at least partially, on Markus? If there are people saying that...and I don’t care who their “source” is, they’re wrong. I get blaming Wojo for loss of control, but you’re damn right it’s a Markus issue. There’s no question about it. There’s zero doubt Markus has been talked to. Why he doesn’t listen to Wojo is the issue.
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Are there people on this board saying this is not, at least partially, on Markus? If there are people saying that...and I don’t care who their “source” is, they’re wrong. I get blaming Wojo for loss of control, but you’re damn right it’s a Markus issue. There’s no question about it. There’s zero doubt Markus has been talked to. Why he doesn’t listen to Wojo is the issue.
Markus runs the play the coach has called. And if Markus doesn't, its on wojo to discipline him like he would any other player that wanted to play selfishly. He can do this in practice, he can not start him for a period of time. He could do lots of things that wouldn't effect the outcome of a game.
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Are there people on this board saying this is not, at least partially, on Markus? If there are people saying that...and I don’t care who their “source” is, they’re wrong. I get blaming Wojo for loss of control, but you’re damn right it’s a Markus issue. There’s no question about it. There’s zero doubt Markus has been talked to. Why he doesn’t listen to Wojo is the issue.
But if he has been talked to and doesn't listen or continues to do his own thing, then why wasn't his playing time curtailed? Just watch how Izzo coaches Cassisus Winston. When Winston makes a mistake or gets in a funk, Izzo is not hesitant to get in his face during a time out or even sit him for stretches in games. I do not recall Wojo ever really confronting Howard during a time out or ever sitting him if he wan't in foul trouble. If Markus is tuning Wojo out, then its on Wojo to sit Markus to get his message through.
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Markus runs the play the coach has called. And if Markus doesn't, its on wojo to discipline him like he would any other player that wanted to play selfishly. He can do this in practice, he can not start him for a period of time. He could do lots of things that wouldn't effect the outcome of a game.
I agree it’s Wojo’s job to coach his player. And I would absolutely stand and applaud if he sat Howard during one of his hot streaks. It’d be great. But that still doesn’t mean none of this is Howard’s fault. It absolutely is.
By the way, this is just one more thing that can hurt Howard’s already shaky draft stock.
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Dumpster fire folks. Dumpster Fire
Paid for by the "I want Another Banner Next to the 1977 Banner" Committee
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Markus runs the play the coach has called. And if Markus doesn't, its on wojo to discipline him like he would any other player that wanted to play selfishly. He can do this in practice, he can not start him for a period of time. He could do lots of things that wouldn't effect the outcome of a game.
Did Joey dunk on you last night too?
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I feel so fortunate to have won not one, but two NIT games last year. What a great time to be a Marquette fan. A true golden age.
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By the way, this is just one more thing that can hurt Howard’s already shaky draft stock.
If Howard gets drafted it is for the sole reason that he can make shots. Nobody is drafting Markus Howard to run their NBA offense - hero ball in college and his potential to make shots in the pros are unrelated.
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Reality Check: You don't have sources, therefore you don't know what went on behind closed doors. There are a hand full of people who do have sources, and do know what took place behind closed doors. Some of the people who have sources have been kind enough to post on scoop and have said this is not on Markus, this is not on the Hauser's, this is solely on an extremely stubborn coach.
Much of this is reasonable. But as others have said, Markus is getting his fair share of the blame. And please don't dismiss the notion that some of those sources might be at least a little biased toward the Hausers. I'm not assessing blame here, and I'm already on record as saying the buck stops at Wojo, but that's no small fact.
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If the Athletic Department has that money available you don't think they could have come up with $500,000 more to keep
The athletic department has that money and way more. They just aren't willing to spend it on something that loses them money. #reality check
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So by sources you mean people who may be trying to spin the story their way for their benefit or to fit their agenda? So far. Sources here have said it's Wojo's fault. Markus's fault. The Hausers's parents. Each Hauser. And even Hauser's girlfriend came up. And don't forget the VT forum had a representative flying to Gary, IN. So forgive me if I take with a grain of salt anonymous Internet forums postings.
And I don't know how much each program spends on their programs. I do know that at least 25 head coaches made more than Wojo in 2019 and several didn't make the tournament. I also know with the hiring of new coaches and extensions Wojo at best is pushed out of the top 30 of compensation. So based on your argument, I think, money should equal results. At best we can expect is Wojo should make the 2nd round.
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If Howard gets drafted it is for the sole reason that he can make shots. Nobody is drafting Markus Howard to run their NBA offense - hero ball in college and his potential to make shots in the pros are unrelated.
Nobody’s taking a chance on a 5’9” team cancer who can’t handle the ball
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Nobody’s taking a chance on a 5’9” team cancer who can’t handle the ball
They won't draft him because of his height - that is accurate
The rest of that sentence has no bearing on his NBA potential. His only value would be as a spot-up shooter.
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You can't evaluate a coach until year 10 or maybe 15.
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Nobody’s taking a chance on a 5’9” team cancer who can’t handle the ball
A team cancer? I mean I realize he needs to reign it in a little, but holy sh*t is that an overreaction.
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A team cancer? I mean I realize he needs to reign it in a little, but holy sh*t is that an overreaction.
+1
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A team cancer? I mean I realize he needs to reign it in a little, but holy sh*t is that an overreaction.
Yep. And he will have help and competition in the back court now with Greg and Koby. Was a one man backcourt last season. Suspect the ball will be moving much better next season.
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A team cancer? I mean I realize he needs to reign it in a little, but holy sh*t is that an overreaction.
Guys are leaving the program! That’s the very definition of a team cancer.
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Dad’s Couch,
Here’s the thing. And, there’s no getting around this.
Buzz Williams at Marquette as head coach: 6 seasons, 5 NCAA’s, 8 NCAA wins, 2 sweet 16’s, elite 8, 2 first place league finishes. The previous coach to him made the Final Four.
So far, Wojo, 5 seasons, 2 NCAA’s, 0 NCAA wins 0 first place league finishes.
So here we are...the expectations are that starting next season, with or without the Hauser brothers, MU Rah Rah makes deeper NCAA runs or Wojo isn’t going to last too many more seasons. It’s pretty straight forward moving forward.
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Two guys. A package deal have left the program. Villanova lost two guys including their top 2018-19 recruit. Lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Wonder who the cancer in that locker room is.
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Two guys. A package deal have left the program. Villanova lost two guys including their top 2018-19 recruit. Lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Wonder who the cancer in that locker room is.
What did Buzz inherit and what did buzz leave us with? Especially enjoyed his last recruiting class that had a kid suspended for his entire Sr. season. Maybe Wojo would have a better record if he had McNeal, James and Matthews his first year.
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Two guys. A package deal have left the program. Villanova lost two guys including their top 2018-19 recruit. Lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Wonder who the cancer in that locker room is.
Actually, Nova lost in the second round. Totally stomped by Purdue.
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Goldeneagle and others. I put this out there originally. Who in your mind should we have hired? Maybe Howland? Record pretty similar. Maybe go off the board. Archie Miller was talked a lot here. So who did you want? Who did we miss out? And no way MU hires someone with the baggage of Sampson and Pearl.
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Two guys. A package deal have left the program. Villanova lost two guys including their top 2018-19 recruit. Lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Wonder who the cancer in that locker room is.
Neat comparison. What else can you compare between the two programs for say, the past 5 seasons?
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Two guys. A package deal have left the program. Villanova lost two guys including their top 2018-19 recruit. Lost in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Wonder who the cancer in that locker room is.
It’s the guy taking 25 shots a game!
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Now we're comparing Wojo to Wright? Good God this is becoming stupid. The only reason to compare the two is to make Wojo look bad, really bad.
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Nobody’s taking a chance on a 5’9” team cancer who can’t handle the ball
Sickening post. You are 100 times the cancer on Scoop than Markus is to Marquette.
People like you make me wonder why I keep coming back to Scoop. Markus, meanwhile, is the type of representative every college looks for.
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Goldeneagle and others. I put this out there originally. Who in your mind should we have hired? Maybe Howland? Record pretty similar. Maybe go off the board. Archie Miller was talked a lot here. So who did you want? Who did we miss out? And no way MU hires someone with the baggage of Sampson and Pearl.
I'm not sure, but at the same time I'm not the one conducting the search. When the new search happens you know Marquette will pay a firm some big dollars to help with it.
I think it's imperative now that Scholl start working any and all connections, so that in 12 months we make the right hire. This year I would have loved to hire Fred Hoiberg.
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Sickening post. You are 100 times the cancer on Scoop than Markus is to Marquette.
People like you make me wonder why I keep coming back to Scoop. Markus, meanwhile, is the type of representative every college looks for.
>:(
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I'm not sure, but at the same time I'm not the one conducting the search. When the new search happens you know Marquette will pay a firm some big dollars to help with it.
I think it's imperative now that Scholl start working any and all connections, so that in 12 months we make the right hire. This year I would have loved to hire Fred Hoiberg.
I keep seeing Hoiberg mentioned. He had a lot of ties to Nebraska and as weird as it seems, going to Nebraska made more sense for him than people think. His grandfather coached their for years and he still has family there
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Goldeneagle and others. I put this out there originally. Who in your mind should we have hired? Maybe Howland? Record pretty similar. Maybe go off the board. Archie Miller was talked a lot here. So who did you want? Who did we miss out? And no way MU hires someone with the baggage of Sampson and Pearl.
Gregg Marshall. Spare me the "Koch Brothers money, he'll never leave" spin: Marquette could have afforded him and we'd be in a much better place as a program.
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The reactions and attacks on some of our players here is embarrassing. Whether the Hausers or Markus. Embarrassing.
You should be ashamed.
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The reactions and attacks on some of our players here is embarrassing. Whether the Hausers or Markus. Embarrassing.
You should be ashamed.
You should be ashamed.
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Greg Marshall is one of the country's top 20 highest paid coaches. So no doubt he would have taken a pay cut to come here. My hats off to you Onepost. You got me.
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Gregg Marshall. Spare me the "Koch Brothers money, he'll never leave" spin: Marquette could have afforded him and we'd be in a much better place as a program.
Marshall has turned down ACC, SEC and Big 10 schools and earns much more at Wichita State than Marquette has ever paid.
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We should hire the next Chris Beard.
Except that if we hired a guy with the resume Beard had when TTech hired him, at least 2/3 of Scoop would scream that we were "settling" for an unproven nobody.
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The reactions and attacks on some of our players here is embarrassing. Whether the Hausers or Markus. Embarrassing.
You should be ashamed.
Plus Tax.
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Now we're comparing Wojo to Wright? Good God this is becoming stupid. The only reason to compare the two is to make Wojo look bad, really bad.
Maybe look at his first five years where he made the Tournament 2 times and yes he did make the Elite 8 in year 5. Took him 8 years to make a Final Four. Then the next 5 years after his FF he made the tournament 4 times winning a total of 2 games. Probably you would have wanted him fired. After all, 13 years one Elite 8 one Final Four and only one tournament victory in the previous 4 seasons.
Maybe we can us John Belein. You probably would be calling for his head after his 5th season at MI with just 3 tournament appearance and 2 total wins.
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I've always loved this quote, and think it's a good time for it.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Some simple facts after this quote. Each of the people we are hammering on (one side or the other) have spent their entire lives in the arena. No one should really criticize them unless they are facing them in the arena. It's Ok to ask "what were they thinking?" I personally admire everyone and anyone willing to get into the fire and man up. I don't question each and every move unless I'm in there with them.
Sam was my favorite player over the last couple years. I'm sad to see him go, wish him the best, and wish he could have worked it out. I won't miss Joey. My impression as an ex-career military leader, ex-college coach, and current senior sales manager, he pouted a lot. I chalked it up to "Freshman." Now the "pouting" I perceived takes a different look. He might be significantly better in a few years, but I think there is enough younger talent at MU to compensate. Sam needed something different. Good for him and his brother, so off they go.
Wojo takes a ton of heat on this board, but like it or not, he's here. Work with it. Our sole job is support, unless we want to get in the arena again (or for the first time). I don't plan on being a big enough donor to make an impact in that area. Therefore I'll continue verbal support of Wojo. And as a second note, if a player can't adjust to what the coach wants, he should go. It's the bad for the team and culture. Sam and Joey decided they didn't fit. They fell on their swords and moved on.
Lots of folks can attack at will, but I'm all in for next year, and think we'll be OK with a solid point guard, and Greg coming back. Who knows, Ike might make an impact (He looked in great shape and health as the season progressed). I do know the remaining players appeared to love Markus in the games, and with a true point guard he can be perhaps more effective. I'm going to wait and see how Wojo modifies, changes, or who he is able to snap up out of the ever growing (each year as well as now) transfer pool. Recognize what this is ... opportunity for the next man up!
None of these guys are jerks (yet). Hausers have their reasons, and I just hope they thought it out. With luck, a couple of our guys will be able to face up on them in the arena, and have some fun making the regret leaving. Wojo will continue to learn as he goes.
Marquette is a special place, and each of us should remember that those standing in our arena mostly know that. I've said my peace ... Go Marquette - Beat Villanova, Beat Wisconsin!
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Maybe look at his first five years where he made the Tournament 2 times and yes he did make the Elite 8 in year 5. Took him 8 years to make a Final Four. Then the next 5 years after his FF he made the tournament 4 times winning a total of 2 games. Probably you would have wanted him fired. After all, 13 years one Elite 8 one Final Four and only one tournament victory in the previous 4 seasons.
Maybe we can us John Belein. You probably would be calling for his head after his 5th season at MI with just 3 tournament appearance and 2 total wins.
Someone needs to do the research and find all the HOF coaches that had 2 of his best 3 players to transfer after year 5.
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Someone needs to do the research and find all the HOF coaches that had 2 of his best 3 players to transfer after year 5.
That are brothers who want insist on a package deal. It's a pretty unique circumstance. Makes me grateful that I don't have the skill set to be a college coach.
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That are brothers who want insist on a package deal. It's a pretty unique circumstance. Makes me grateful that I don't have the skill set to be a college coach.
Ok I will amend. 2nd best player who is a rising senior.
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And what does that have to do with this discussion. Benett lost Shayok this year. Granted not a starter but was going to be. The point I am trying to make is people want to get rid of Wojo who has built a pretty good program but hasn't had any post season success. A lot of great coaches have also struggled at the beginning or at times. The reason they are HOF coaches is because they had the support and patience from their administration.
And to say this is Hiroshima is an insult to the current team. I love the Hausers. The few times I met them they were very impressive young men and so where their parents. We'll miss them. But I also really like what we have. Greg and Toby are coming back. (I know there are rumors other players are leaving but until they do they are still on the roster). Brendan will have a full off season to work out the kinks and hopefully some renewed confidence. Sacar is only going to get better. Ed and Theo are also going to get better. Hopefully Ike can play. Jamal looked promising at times his FR year. Don't know what happened last year but he still flashed a couple of times. Akanno is under the radar but my friends who saw him said he is a tough SOB. Markus is still one of the best shooters in college. We can still be a top 25 team and who knows maybe more.
But let's blow it up. Get rid of Wojo. Start over. Maybe 3 or 4 guys transfer out. Lose all recruits we currently on for 2020. Go through hell for another 3 years for what. A long shot we will be better at the end. As my original list pointed out. It is a lot easier to fail that to be a consistent national power. Patience will get you there see Belein, Wright and a ton of other programs.
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I've always loved this quote, and think it's a good time for it.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Some simple facts after this quote. Each of the people we are hammering on (one side or the other) have spent their entire lives in the arena. No one should really criticize them unless they are facing them in the arena. It's Ok to ask "what were they thinking?" I personally admire everyone and anyone willing to get into the fire and man up. I don't question each and every move unless I'm in there with them.
Sam was my favorite player over the last couple years. I'm sad to see him go, wish him the best, and wish he could have worked it out. I won't miss Joey. My impression as an ex-career military leader, ex-college coach, and current senior sales manager, he pouted a lot. I chalked it up to "Freshman." Now the "pouting" I perceived takes a different look. He might be significantly better in a few years, but I think there is enough younger talent at MU to compensate. Sam needed something different. Good for him and his brother, so off they go.
Wojo takes a ton of heat on this board, but like it or not, he's here. Work with it. Our sole job is support, unless we want to get in the arena again (or for the first time). I don't plan on being a big enough donor to make an impact in that area. Therefore I'll continue verbal support of Wojo. And as a second note, if a player can't adjust to what the coach wants, he should go. It's the bad for the team and culture. Sam and Joey decided they didn't fit. They fell on their swords and moved on.
Lots of folks can attack at will, but I'm all in for next year, and think we'll be OK with a solid point guard, and Greg coming back. Who knows, Ike might make an impact (He looked in great shape and health as the season progressed). I do know the remaining players appeared to love Markus in the games, and with a true point guard he can be perhaps more effective. I'm going to wait and see how Wojo modifies, changes, or who he is able to snap up out of the ever growing (each year as well as now) transfer pool. Recognize what this is ... opportunity for the next man up!
None of these guys are jerks (yet). Hausers have their reasons, and I just hope they thought it out. With luck, a couple of our guys will be able to face up on them in the arena, and have some fun making the regret leaving. Wojo will continue to learn as he goes.
Marquette is a special place, and each of us should remember that those standing in our arena mostly know that. I've said my peace ... Go Marquette - Beat Villanova, Beat Wisconsin!
Nice Post. Thanks
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I've always loved this quote, and think it's a good time for it.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Some simple facts after this quote. Each of the people we are hammering on (one side or the other) have spent their entire lives in the arena. No one should really criticize them unless they are facing them in the arena. It's Ok to ask "what were they thinking?" I personally admire everyone and anyone willing to get into the fire and man up. I don't question each and every move unless I'm in there with them.
Sam was my favorite player over the last couple years. I'm sad to see him go, wish him the best, and wish he could have worked it out. I won't miss Joey. My impression as an ex-career military leader, ex-college coach, and current senior sales manager, he pouted a lot. I chalked it up to "Freshman." Now the "pouting" I perceived takes a different look. He might be significantly better in a few years, but I think there is enough younger talent at MU to compensate. Sam needed something different. Good for him and his brother, so off they go.
Wojo takes a ton of heat on this board, but like it or not, he's here. Work with it. Our sole job is support, unless we want to get in the arena again (or for the first time). I don't plan on being a big enough donor to make an impact in that area. Therefore I'll continue verbal support of Wojo. And as a second note, if a player can't adjust to what the coach wants, he should go. It's the bad for the team and culture. Sam and Joey decided they didn't fit. They fell on their swords and moved on.
Lots of folks can attack at will, but I'm all in for next year, and think we'll be OK with a solid point guard, and Greg coming back. Who knows, Ike might make an impact (He looked in great shape and health as the season progressed). I do know the remaining players appeared to love Markus in the games, and with a true point guard he can be perhaps more effective. I'm going to wait and see how Wojo modifies, changes, or who he is able to snap up out of the ever growing (each year as well as now) transfer pool. Recognize what this is ... opportunity for the next man up!
None of these guys are jerks (yet). Hausers have their reasons, and I just hope they thought it out. With luck, a couple of our guys will be able to face up on them in the arena, and have some fun making the regret leaving. Wojo will continue to learn as he goes.
Marquette is a special place, and each of us should remember that those standing in our arena mostly know that. I've said my peace ... Go Marquette - Beat Villanova, Beat Wisconsin!
Wonderfully stated. Excellent post.
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Maybe look at his first five years where he made the Tournament 2 times and yes he did make the Elite 8 in year 5. Took him 8 years to make a Final Four. Then the next 5 years after his FF he made the tournament 4 times winning a total of 2 games. Probably you would have wanted him fired. After all, 13 years one Elite 8 one Final Four and only one tournament victory in the previous 4 seasons.
Maybe we can us John Belein. You probably would be calling for his head after his 5th season at MI with just 3 tournament appearance and 2 total wins.
Wright did have a stronger first 5 years and established some 'capital' to justify being patient with his program development. Belein had a long resume of success prior to MI that also gave him a longer runway to implement his proven system.
For the record, I don't want Wojo fired. He earned a longer leash with the successes of this past season. I don't think its unreasonable to believe there are some serious questions about him establishing a sustained winning program but with positives, like a top 10 ranking and a 5 seed, he will continue to allow himself more time to learn to coach better and manage players better. Besides us on the internet, MU is evaluating his ability to do the job. If they were sold on him (like Wright at VU) he would have a long term lucrative contract in hand.
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Gregg Marshall. Spare me the "Koch Brothers money, he'll never leave" spin: Marquette could have afforded him and we'd be in a much better place as a program.
Salary isn't the reason Marshall is still in Wichita.
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It’s the guy taking 25 shots a game!
I will say this again...slowly...Carsen Edwards had a HIGHER shot rate than Markus...Some stats...
Carsen was 277/703= 19.5 SPG, 113 TO(3.1 pg), and 104 Asst(2.9 pg)
Markus= 252/600= 17.6 SPG, 134 TO(3.9 pg), 133 Asst(3.9pg)
Markus took 100 fewer shots than Carsen Edwards, almost 2 shots less per game, turned it over slightly more, had a better Asst rate, was more efficient, shot it better from 3, and shot more FT's.
And yet...we never heard a word about players from Purdue complaining that Carsen shot it too much and it was hurting the team. Not only that, but Purdue won a conference championship, had a higher seed in the tournament, and went to an elite 8, and were THIS close to being in a final Four...all with a more ball dominant, jack happy, turnover prone, not as likely to pass Guard as Markus was...
So you know what the OBVIOUS explanation there is?? Matt painter had more control of his team then Wojo did. THAT'S the problem, NOT Markus. Matt Painter made it work...Wojo did NOT
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Maybe not but at least 3.5 million reasons. And I don't know if the buyout is prohibitive. After hearing some this coaching season like Jamie Dixon's and Cluess at Iona, it may be huge.
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Salary isn't the reason Marshall is still in Wichita.
It’s because he’s a dick!
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I will say this again...slowly...Carsen Edwards had a HIGHER shot rate than Markus...Some stats...
Carsen was 277/703= 19.5 SPG, 113 TO(3.1 pg), and 104 Asst(2.9 pg)
Markus= 252/600= 17.6 SPG, 134 TO(3.9 pg), 133 Asst(3.9pg)
Markus took 100 fewer shots than Carsen Edwards, almost 2 shots less per game, turned it over slightly more, had a better Asst rate, was more efficient, shot it better from 3, and shot more FT's.
And yet...we never heard a word about players from Purdue complaining that Carsen shot it too much and it was hurting the team. Not only that, but Purdue won a conference championship, had a higher seed in the tournament, and went to an elite 8, and were THIS close to being in a final Four...all with a more ball dominant, jack happy, turnover prone, not as likely to pass Guard as Markus was...
So you know what the OBVIOUS explanation there is?? Matt painter had more control of his team then Wojo did. THAT'S the problem, NOT Markus. Matt Painter made it work...Wojo did NOT
You are coming to the conclusion that you want to. You are assuming the only difference is Wojo vs. Painter. The other players on the team are also important. It is possible if you give Painter the two Hauser's, and we get their top 2 other players, and the two teams/coaches simply flip outcomes.
That said. Let's say you fire Wojo, like a lot of people on here say. Those people are quick to say that it is necessary, because we cannot recruit top players if we keep Wojo, because of negative recruiting.
Like above, that analysis is looking at the problem in a vacuum where you assume Wojo is the problem, and that everyone else is completely aware that Wojo is the problem. You are looking at it from a view, clouded by your dislike of Wojo.
The reality is, to most programs in college basketball, Wojo is a successful and highly desired up and coming coach. To them, if you fire Wojo, it says it doesn't matter if you are successful. You are not allowed to run your own program. The players run the show, and if they are not happy you will be fired. No top coaching candidate is going to walk into that situation. That is looking at it through another, and perfectly realistic, lens.
Where is the reality, likely somewhere in between. None of the people spouting off on here really know what all transpired. The person who does is the AD. He is also the person who knows that if it was all on Wojo, he doesn't have a good option, because the public image to other coaches would be that MU lets the players run the system, not the coaches.
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It’s because he’s a dick!
There is some truth to this
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I've always loved this quote, and think it's a good time for it.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Some simple facts after this quote. Each of the people we are hammering on (one side or the other) have spent their entire lives in the arena. No one should really criticize them unless they are facing them in the arena. It's Ok to ask "what were they thinking?" I personally admire everyone and anyone willing to get into the fire and man up. I don't question each and every move unless I'm in there with them.
Sam was my favorite player over the last couple years. I'm sad to see him go, wish him the best, and wish he could have worked it out. I won't miss Joey. My impression as an ex-career military leader, ex-college coach, and current senior sales manager, he pouted a lot. I chalked it up to "Freshman." Now the "pouting" I perceived takes a different look. He might be significantly better in a few years, but I think there is enough younger talent at MU to compensate. Sam needed something different. Good for him and his brother, so off they go.
Wojo takes a ton of heat on this board, but like it or not, he's here. Work with it. Our sole job is support, unless we want to get in the arena again (or for the first time). I don't plan on being a big enough donor to make an impact in that area. Therefore I'll continue verbal support of Wojo. And as a second note, if a player can't adjust to what the coach wants, he should go. It's the bad for the team and culture. Sam and Joey decided they didn't fit. They fell on their swords and moved on.
Lots of folks can attack at will, but I'm all in for next year, and think we'll be OK with a solid point guard, and Greg coming back. Who knows, Ike might make an impact (He looked in great shape and health as the season progressed). I do know the remaining players appeared to love Markus in the games, and with a true point guard he can be perhaps more effective. I'm going to wait and see how Wojo modifies, changes, or who he is able to snap up out of the ever growing (each year as well as now) transfer pool. Recognize what this is ... opportunity for the next man up!
None of these guys are jerks (yet). Hausers have their reasons, and I just hope they thought it out. With luck, a couple of our guys will be able to face up on them in the arena, and have some fun making the regret leaving. Wojo will continue to learn as he goes.
Marquette is a special place, and each of us should remember that those standing in our arena mostly know that. I've said my peace ... Go Marquette - Beat Villanova, Beat Wisconsin!
We need more of this.
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If they had both declared for the draft, the team would be in the exact same situation vis a vis next season.
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If they had both declared for the draft, the team would be in the exact same situation vis a vis next season.
really? I think the team (and Wojo) would be in a totally different situation. At least i wouldn't have this desperate feeling that something is really really wrong.
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There is some truth to this
And his wife is nuts...and oh, FBI...
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Dad’s couch just wrote war and peace of wojo apology. I wouldnt be surprised if our current roster felt just as comfortable with stan at the helm as an interim coach.
Seems like wojo has lost respect from the players after this coup attempt from the brothers hauser.
Lets can this loser Wojo and move on!
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Sickening post. You are 100 times the cancer on Scoop than Markus is to Marquette.
People like you make me wonder why I keep coming back to Scoop. Markus, meanwhile, is the type of representative every college looks for.
This ^^^^
Everyone else, don’t feed the trolls.
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PRN was one of the original scoopers. His rants about Crean looked similar to this. He was way ahead of the curve when it came to Crean.
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"Each of the people we are hammering on (one side or the other) have spent their entire lives in the arena. No one should really criticize them unless they are facing them in the arena.
I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work there, Lou.
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really? I think the team (and Wojo) would be in a totally different situation. At least i wouldn't have this desperate feeling that something is really really wrong.
Exactly. This isn't about a couple of guys fulfilling a dream and going pro. That indicates something's RIGHT in a program. This is the exact opposite.
The Marquette program sure doesn't feel like UVA or Duke to me right now.
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The Marquette program sure doesn't feel like UVA or Duke to me right now.
This program is not UVA nor Duke. If that's what you want, I suggest you switch allegiances now.
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PRN was one of the original scoopers. His rants about Crean looked similar to this. He was way ahead of the curve when it came to Crean.
Unfortunately, this.
PRN is a dude.
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I will say this again...slowly...Carsen Edwards had a HIGHER shot rate than Markus...Some stats...
Carsen was 277/703= 19.5 SPG, 113 TO(3.1 pg), and 104 Asst(2.9 pg)
Markus= 252/600= 17.6 SPG, 134 TO(3.9 pg), 133 Asst(3.9pg)
Markus took 100 fewer shots than Carsen Edwards, almost 2 shots less per game, turned it over slightly more, had a better Asst rate, was more efficient, shot it better from 3, and shot more FT's.
And yet...we never heard a word about players from Purdue complaining that Carsen shot it too much and it was hurting the team. Not only that, but Purdue won a conference championship, had a higher seed in the tournament, and went to an elite 8, and were THIS close to being in a final Four...all with a more ball dominant, jack happy, turnover prone, not as likely to pass Guard as Markus was...
So you know what the OBVIOUS explanation there is?? Matt painter had more control of his team then Wojo did. THAT'S the problem, NOT Markus. Matt Painter made it work...Wojo did NOT
Interesting post.
As you know, I place most of the blame on Wojo.
Nevertheless, your post is almost an advertisement for: Edwards has better teammates than Markus did.
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Ah, yes. The old tried and true, "it could be a whole lot worse" excuse. This commercial was paid for by Friends of Wojo.
I agree with this analysis.
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This program is not UVA nor Duke. If that's what you want, I suggest you switch allegiances now.
Please read the post that Mutaman responded to, his post and then mine. Context matters. My point was this fiasco is NOTHING like UVA and Duke losing players early to the pros. I resent your "suggestion" about me switching allegiances. I've supported Marquette for far longer than you and will continue to as long as I'm around.
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Dad’s couch just wrote war and peace of wojo apology. I wouldnt be surprised if our current roster felt just as comfortable with stan at the helm as an interim coach.
Seems like wojo has lost respect from the players after this coup attempt from the brothers hauser.
Lets can this loser Wojo and move on!
I agree with this analysis
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We need more of this.
I agree and i truly believe, after tge intial shock, that we are truly only losing Sam for one year. Now no doubt what a kick in the pants to lose him after being projected as a top 5 team. However i dont think joey will be much of a loss, horrible defender and im not sure how that changes much, big time atketicism issues. He was a pouter and a baby and really not that good, i think he got way more time than he deserved. Got way more than Brendan or Cain n am not at all convinced he deserved it. I think it was Wojo trying keep the hauser family happy thru next year.
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I will say this again...slowly...Carsen Edwards had a HIGHER shot rate than Markus...Some stats...
Carsen was 277/703= 19.5 SPG, 113 TO(3.1 pg), and 104 Asst(2.9 pg)
Markus= 252/600= 17.6 SPG, 134 TO(3.9 pg), 133 Asst(3.9pg)
Markus took 100 fewer shots than Carsen Edwards, almost 2 shots less per game, turned it over slightly more, had a better Asst rate, was more efficient, shot it better from 3, and shot more FT's.
And yet...we never heard a word about players from Purdue complaining that Carsen shot it too much and it was hurting the team. Not only that, but Purdue won a conference championship, had a higher seed in the tournament, and went to an elite 8, and were THIS close to being in a final Four...all with a more ball dominant, jack happy, turnover prone, not as likely to pass Guard as Markus was...
So you know what the OBVIOUS explanation there is?? Matt painter had more control of his team then Wojo did. THAT'S the problem, NOT Markus. Matt Painter made it work...Wojo did NOT
I already responded to you about this once. Your conclusion is wrong. Also, Edwards' shot ratio was less (34.7% vs 36.1%).
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58615.msg1124954#msg1124954
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This program is not UVA nor Duke. If that's what you want, I suggest you switch allegiances now.
At this point its not even Murray State. How about I keep my allegiance to Marquette and insist on some competence?
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I agree and i truly believe, after tge intial shock, that we are truly only losing Sam for one year. Now no doubt what a kick in the pants to lose him after being projected as a top 5 team. However i dont think joey will be much of a loss, horrible defender and im not sure how that changes much, big time atketicism issues. He was a pouter and a baby and really not that good, i think he got way more time than he deserved. Got way more than Brendan or Cain n am not at all convinced he deserved it. I think it was Wojo trying keep the hauser family happy thru next year.
Honestly I think Joey was the bigger loss. Not next season but I would have loved three more years of Joey.
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Dad’s couch just wrote war and peace of wojo apology. I wouldnt be surprised if our current roster felt just as comfortable with stan at the helm as an interim coach.
Seems like wojo has lost respect from the players after this coup attempt from the brothers hauser.
Lets can this loser Wojo and move on!
You want to hire an interim coach....the year before we go into a rebuilding year. That's an interesting strategy.
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Honestly I think Joey was the bigger loss. Not next season but I would have loved three more years of Joey.
Sounds like Wojo probably would not have loved 3 more years of Joey.
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I've always loved this quote, and think it's a good time for it.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt
Some simple facts after this quote. Each of the people we are hammering on (one side or the other) have spent their entire lives in the arena. No one should really criticize them unless they are facing them in the arena. It's Ok to ask "what were they thinking?" I personally admire everyone and anyone willing to get into the fire and man up. I don't question each and every move unless I'm in there with them.
Sam was my favorite player over the last couple years. I'm sad to see him go, wish him the best, and wish he could have worked it out. I won't miss Joey. My impression as an ex-career military leader, ex-college coach, and current senior sales manager, he pouted a lot. I chalked it up to "Freshman." Now the "pouting" I perceived takes a different look. He might be significantly better in a few years, but I think there is enough younger talent at MU to compensate. Sam needed something different. Good for him and his brother, so off they go.
Wojo takes a ton of heat on this board, but like it or not, he's here. Work with it. Our sole job is support, unless we want to get in the arena again (or for the first time). I don't plan on being a big enough donor to make an impact in that area. Therefore I'll continue verbal support of Wojo. And as a second note, if a player can't adjust to what the coach wants, he should go. It's the bad for the team and culture. Sam and Joey decided they didn't fit. They fell on their swords and moved on.
Lots of folks can attack at will, but I'm all in for next year, and think we'll be OK with a solid point guard, and Greg coming back. Who knows, Ike might make an impact (He looked in great shape and health as the season progressed). I do know the remaining players appeared to love Markus in the games, and with a true point guard he can be perhaps more effective. I'm going to wait and see how Wojo modifies, changes, or who he is able to snap up out of the ever growing (each year as well as now) transfer pool. Recognize what this is ... opportunity for the next man up!
None of these guys are jerks (yet). Hausers have their reasons, and I just hope they thought it out. With luck, a couple of our guys will be able to face up on them in the arena, and have some fun making the regret leaving. Wojo will continue to learn as he goes.
Marquette is a special place, and each of us should remember that those standing in our arena mostly know that. I've said my peace ... Go Marquette - Beat Villanova, Beat Wisconsin!
Class of 1980 doing MUBB right. No surprise there.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/88d6545db06254a19c62c85b34a56df3/tenor.gif)
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Honestly I think Joey was the bigger loss. Not next season but I would have loved three more years of Joey.
Remember when some Scoopers were speculatin' that Joey would leave Marquette early.
Well ... they were right!
OK, so they were talkin' about the NBA. But still ...
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I already responded to you about this once. Your conclusion is wrong. Also, Edwards' shot ratio was less (34.7% vs 36.1%).
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=58615.msg1124954#msg1124954
carsen had a higher usage rate
https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/stats?category=ADVANCED (https://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/stats?category=ADVANCED)
So, what is it?
Winning cures everything
Purdue's teammates are not as selfish at the Hausers
Painter and his staff can manage people better
Carsen is going pro, so the point is moot?
Or a little bit of everything, as each case is different.