Marquette: All-Time Top 10

[Herman Cain]

Saw Kojis play live in the NBA several times  but not at MU. He was an outstanding player .  In today’s era Don would be an athletic two.

Kojis was at the MU Alumni game a few years back and was still in great shape at age 77 , broad shoulders etc

I would say Don  should easily be on any MU top ten list

[MuMark]

I didn't see him play but Don Kojis should be in the discussion for sure.

[LloydsLegs]

82

I will try and get my top ten put together this weekend. Do have to say, that just because someone was not born when a player was at MU should not dismiss that player from conversation. In addition, because a large number of players comes from the Al era it is not Al bias, it is a fact that highest percent of coveted recruits played at MU during that time. Furthermore, about 8-10 had extremely well rounded college careers, which included winning at high level.

I want to take my time and put my list together with thought and from experience, not shot gunning together a list.

I agree that you should not dismiss a player you did not see from the conversation.  In fact, my view is quite the opposite:  if you did not have the chance to see the player play, you should not dismiss that player and instead respect the opinion of those that did.  I am 55, and while I was alive for the 70’s bball, and I remember watching MU games in the 70’s, it was rare and I didn’t then know enough about bball to make judgments (even the ill informed type judgments I make today!). 

And while I am reluctant to offer opinions of the players pre 1980, I think that it is perfectly fine for those of you who are my age and who were more steeped in MU bball in the 70’s to weigh in.  There are bunch of folks like that who went to games or for other reasons were huge fans of the program when they were 8, 10 or 15 years old.

On the other hand, there are a few people here my age and younger who simply talk out of their ass about the players from the Al era, as though they personally experienced the games.  I wish I would have seen it, but, again, other than watching a couple of games a year on TV and catching box scores (and now, looking at stats and clips), I didn’t.  And neither did most people on scoop.  So, have your opinion but don’t act like you were there when you weren’t. (And Goose I have no assumptions about you)

[Galway Eagle]

Was Kojis or Rand better? Seems like the only two names worth mentioning pre Al

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Any list without george thopmson is a very poor list period

[GooooMarquette]

Haven't read all the posts, but I'd say there are 6 players who should be considered indisputable:

Jim Chones
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Dwyane Wade

Some would argue others are "indisputable," but even my own 7-10 picks are debatable in my own mind...and if you have others in those slots, I hereby "dispute" them. 

Anyhow - recognizing lots of arguments about number of games/years played, relevance of different eras, NBA careers, and overall team success - and acknowledging that I never saw Kojis or Thompson play at MU - I'd list the 7-10 as:

Jimmy Butler
Lazar Hayward
Markus Howard
Earl Tatum

Of those I excluded, I struggled the most with Jae (one pretty good year, one phenomenal year), Lloyd Walton (don't see much mention of him, but he was an extraordinary PG), and George Thompson (see comment above about never seeing him play). I could easily see any of them included, probably over Lazar or Earl.

But it's awfully nice to be currently watching a guy who is right up in the discussion.

[MU82]

But it's awfully nice to be currently watching a guy who is right up in the discussion.

This.

I understand him not quite making somebody's top 10. I think he should be included, but I understand and folks can and will disagree about this type of stuff. But to exclude him even from the conversation -- to suggest that a guy who will be our leading scorer by up to 1,000 points isn't even top-20 material -- that doesn't seem right.

I like your list overall, Goooooooooooooooooo, and agree with your Indisputable Six.

[Goose]

82

I stated that Howard is in my top twenty, but said not likely to make my top ten.

[MU82]

82

I stated that Howard is in my top twenty, but said not likely to make my top ten.

Wasn't talking about you, but thanks for that note. I remember you saying you just recently slid him into your top-20.

[Jay Bee]

This.

I understand him not quite making somebody's top 10. I think he should be included, but I understand and folks can and will disagree about this type of stuff. But to exclude him even from the conversation -- to suggest that a guy who will be our leading scorer by up to 1,000 points isn't even top-20 material -- that doesn't seem right.

I like your list overall, Goooooooooooooooooo, and agree with your Indisputable Six.

I actually dislike discussions about 'top 10' or the crap on TV shows that is 'who's better, player A or player b?'..

In a situation like this, we don't have an objective, agreed upon way to judge, so everyone's list is going to be BASED on different criteria, so it begins to make little sense after awhile.

I can see an argument against Markus if you're giving significant weight to defense, size, etc.

But I can also see an argument to give guys 'extra credit' for being supremely talented in an area(s). The scoring prowess of Markus is legendary. It's so unique and special that I have a hard time understanding how he wouldn't be at least in the conversation...

I think if MU gets lucky in the crapshoot (assuming they make it, lol), people may bump him up

[MU82]

I agree that you should not dismiss a player you did not see from the conversation.  In fact, my view is quite the opposite:  if you did not have the chance to see the player play, you should not dismiss that player and instead respect the opinion of those that did.  I am 55, and while I was alive for the 70’s bball, and I remember watching MU games in the 70’s, it was rare and I didn’t then know enough about bball to make judgments (even the ill informed type judgments I make today!). 

And while I am reluctant to offer opinions of the players pre 1980, I think that it is perfectly fine for those of you who are my age and who were more steeped in MU bball in the 70’s to weigh in.  There are bunch of folks like that who went to games or for other reasons were huge fans of the program when they were 8, 10 or 15 years old.

On the other hand, there are a few people here my age and younger who simply talk out of their ass about the players from the Al era, as though they personally experienced the games.  I wish I would have seen it, but, again, other than watching a couple of games a year on TV and catching box scores (and now, looking at stats and clips), I didn’t.  And neither did most people on scoop.  So, have your opinion but don’t act like you were there when you weren’t. (And Goose I have no assumptions about you)

Again, I absolutely said that those we haven't seen should not automatically be excluded. I fully understand how folks would choose Lucas, Lee, Thompson, Dean, etc, even if they never saw them play.

Still, I do think it's reasonable that seeing a guy play might give him an edge if it's close in somebody's mind. As I said, I never saw Thompson play one second of basketball while I have seen Markus absolutely dominate games as one of the great scorer/shooters ever to don the blue and gold. So for me, personally, that puts Markus ahead of George. I acknowledge that I probably have similar bias toward Butler and Crowder, too.

I saw very little of Meminger during his time at MU. But I know he was a stud. I also was a big Knicks fan when he played in NY, and he was one of my faves. That no doubt endears him to me more. We all have biases.

[Not A Serious Person]

Saw Kojis play live in the NBA several times  but not at MU. He was an outstanding player .  In today’s era Don would be an athletic two.

Kojis was at the MU Alumni game a few years back and was still in great shape at age 77 , broad shoulders etc

I would say Don  should easily be on any MU top ten list

+ 1

If you are willing to recognize that history did NOT start the date you were born (or worse, the day you became aware of MU), then George Thompson and Don Kojis are top 5.  Remove Butler and Crowder from your list to make room for them.

Two other top spots have to include MU's only POY Butch Lee, and, of course, Dwyane Wade. 

My fifth spot goes to the best player in MU's first 50 years, Terry Rand.

Six through 10 ...

6. Bo Ellis (11 -4 in the NCAA, only player to play in two NCs)
7. Dean Memminger (highest draft pick in MU history at #2)
8. Maurice Lucas (the man that invented the Power Forward)
9. Pick your modern player here (Crowder, McNeal, Butler, etc)
10. Marcus Howard (too many are greatly undervaluing his amazing talent)

Lots of recency bias by people naming Lazar and Gardner to their top ten. 

[Galway Eagle]

+ 1

If you are willing to recognize that history did NOT start the date you were born (or worse, the day you became aware of MU), then George Thompson and Don Kojis are top 5.  Remove Butler and Crowder from your list to make room for them.

Two other top spots have to include MU's only POY Butch Lee, and, of course, Dewayne Wade. 

My fifth spot goes to the best player in MU's first 50 years, Terry Rand.

Six through 10 ...

6. Bo Ellis (11 -4 in the NCAA, only player to play in two NCs)
7. Dean Memminger (highest draft pick in MU history at #2)
8. Maurice Lucas (the man that invented the Power Forward)
9. Pick your modern player here (Crowder, McNeal, Butler, etc)
10. Marcus Howard (too many are greatly undervaluing his amazing talent)

Lots of recency bias by people naming Lazar and Gardner to their top ten.

I don't know if it recency for Lazar he was an honorable mention all American and basically averaged the same as Jae while playing the same way only with more dunks. Feel like him and Jae are interchangeable

Gardner is definitely recency bias in my opinion as much as I loved him he was clearly a level below Jae, Zar, DJO, and the 3 amigos in terms of modern players

I think the love for Butler is based too much on two clutch shots and what he became in the NBA.

[brewcity77]

and, of course, Dewayne Wade.

It's almost impressive to misspell his name twice in the same word.

[Cheeks]

Haven't read all the posts, but I'd say there are 6 players who should be considered indisputable:

Jim Chones
Bo Ellis
Butch Lee
Maurice Lucas
Dean Meminger
Dwyane Wade

Some would argue others are "indisputable," but even my own 7-10 picks are debatable in my own mind...and if you have others in those slots, I hereby "dispute" them. 

Anyhow - recognizing lots of arguments about number of games/years played, relevance of different eras, NBA careers, and overall team success - and acknowledging that I never saw Kojis or Thompson play at MU - I'd list the 7-10 as:

Jimmy Butler
Lazar Hayward
Markus Howard
Earl Tatum

Of those I excluded, I struggled the most with Jae (one pretty good year, one phenomenal year), Lloyd Walton (don't see much mention of him, but he was an extraordinary PG), and George Thompson (see comment above about never seeing him play). I could easily see any of them included, probably over Lazar or Earl.

But it's awfully nice to be currently watching a guy who is right up in the discussion.

Lazar?  Top 10?

[Elonsmusk]

Wade
Thompson
Chones
Markus
Meminger
Lee
Ellis
Crowder
Lucas
McNeal/Diener = Toss Up

[franklinjerry]

Lazar
Jae
Lucas
Butch
Marcus
Jerel
Wade
Lloyd Walton/Tony Miller
Brian Wardle
Sam

Lazar, Jae, Jerel ( & Jimmie & Ed) played with passion. Lazar, Jae and Jimmie frequently played the 5 on defense and played it well.

We will never see another team with the 3 point (and free throw) prowess of Marcus, Rowsey and Sam. Defense a problem, yup.

Front court players of the early 70's, (Chones, McNeil, Lucas) were special.

Guys like Wardle, Pieper, Oliver Lee carried the team on their backs when the talent was thin.

Memminger, Walton, Sam Worthy, Tony Miller, true point guards who are fewer and farther between as the game has evolved.

Sam broke my heart. Highest level of basketball sense i've seen coming out of high school.

[Sir Lawrence]

Steve Novak does not make my top ten.  He does, however, rank higher than Gardner or Lazar.

  And Brute Force is top 5. 

[TallTitan34]

It's almost impressive to misspell his name twice in the same word.

Almost made me miss that he spelled Markus wrong as well.

[Bad_Reporter]

Not in order.

Wade
Diener
Bo Ellis
Dean the dream
Earl Tatum
Butch Lee
Jim Chones
George Thompson
Doc Rivers or Dominic James
Wes Mathews

Had Sam stayed I could see him possibly being around number 10-12

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Chones
Crowder
Diener
Ellis
Howard
Lee
Meminger
Tatum
Thompson
Wade

Honestly, 9 of these came to me right away. Diener was the one I struggled with. I think you can put Jimmy, Wes, Lazar, Tony Smith, Doc, Novak, James, and McNeal all in a bunch with Diener.

[1SE]

Not in order.

Wade
Diener
Bo Ellis
Dean the dream
Earl Tatum
Butch Lee
Jim Chones
George Thompson
Doc Rivers or Dominic James
Wes Mathews

Had Sam stayed I could see him possibly being around number 10-12

Diener over Markus?

[Bad_Reporter]

Diener over Markus?

If I was just basing my list on scoring ability, Markus would be above Diener. 

[🏀]

If I was just basing my list on scoring ability, Markus would be above Diener. 

Let’s not forget about the TBT contributions to the Golden Eagles.

[jsglow]

Side note: Jim Chones should have his number retired.

Yes.  And before Markus.  Not that he is more deserving.  But he's waited long enough and it should happen while he is alive.  We can go to the 'retired jersey' concept to accomplish.