MLB 2016

[MU82]

I'm old enough to remember the golden age of starting pitching. 300 innings pitched was the standard by which you judged a starting pitcher.

Think about it. Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich or Bert Blyleven. You didn't relieve these guys because it was an assault on their manhood. Koufax was throwing 99 mile an hour bbs in the eighth inning. You crossed Gibson and you lived to regret it.

What were they doing different in those days?

Well, one thing they were doing differently was suffering in silence. It wasn't "manly" to skip a start with injury or to talk about your pain.

Koufax, the first pitcher you named, had to retire at age 30, his arm blown apart by the heavy workload.

Even for those who avoided serious injuries, you have named the elite of the elite here. They were physical freaks. You didn't name the hundreds (or more) who couldn't hack the workload. Why? Because they were done before they ever had a chance to be great.

There has to be a middle ground between working guys 300+ innings ... and coddling them so much that they expect to be relieved if they encounter even a little 6th-inning trouble.

The other thing that is different is relief pitching. In the "olden days," relievers were failed starters and a team only carried a few of them so they could have extra position players. Now, relievers are bred, especially closers, and the craft is so specialized. Pitchers now make up more than half the 25-man roster for most teams.

A manager would rather go with a fresh left-hander to face a good lefty hitter in the seventh inning than stick with a tired right-hander who already has thrown 98 pitches. Strategically, that does makes sense.

Most of the elite pitchers still work into the eighth inning pretty regularly. But now they are on 4 or even 5 days' rest, they are allowed to skip a start to help head off "dead arm," etc.

I laugh when people talk about supposedly unbreakable records, and they list DiMaggio's streak or some other hitting number. You want unbreakable modern (post-1900) records? Take a look at Ed Walsh's 464 innings, Cy Young's 749 career complete games, Grover Alexander's 16 shutouts and Jack Chesbro's 41 wins.

THOSE are records that will never, ever, ever, EVER be broken.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

The closest thing you'll get to an iron man pitcher in recent times is Mark Buehrle. The guy pitched 200+ innings for 15 straight seasons. Its a rarity, but at the same time I never felt like he was over worked in his career.

I feel like Buehrle can be the happy medium everybody wants. No 300+ inning years like Fergus Jenkins, but not being pulled out ridiculously early.

I also feel like mechanics have a lot to do with injuries, more so than innings pitched.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

The closest thing you'll get to an iron man pitcher in recent times is Mark Buehrle. The guy pitched 200+ innings for 15 straight seasons. Its a rarity, but at the same time I never felt like he was over worked in his career.

I feel like Buehrle can be the happy medium everybody wants. No 300+ inning years like Fergus Jenkins, but not being pulled out ridiculously early.

I also feel like mechanics have a lot to do with injuries, more so than innings pitched.

American League pitchers, (even the ones who can handle a bat-- like Buehrle), benefit from not having a spot in the batting order.  Koufax/Drysdale era Iron Men pitchers came up to hit with the game on the line, adding to the impressiveness of their accomplishments.  Even a more recent player like Maddux, (who probably pitched 200 innings 20 times), had to not only pitch well but also move runners.

[tower912]

90-92 used to be a good fastball for a starter.    Maddux rarely touched 90.   Lolich rarely touched 90.     As 82 says, relievers are far superior to what they were in the old days.   

[brandx]

The closest thing you'll get to an iron man pitcher in recent times is Mark Buehrle. The guy pitched 200+ innings for 15 straight seasons. Its a rarity, but at the same time I never felt like he was over worked in his career.

I feel like Buehrle can be the happy medium everybody wants. No 300+ inning years like Fergus Jenkins, but not being pulled out ridiculously early.

I also feel like mechanics have a lot to do with injuries, more so than innings pitched.

Throwing 88 takes a lot less out of an arm than throwing 95+

[brandx]

Well, one thing they were doing differently was suffering in silence. It wasn't "manly" to skip a start with injury or to talk about your pain.

Koufax, the first pitcher you named, had to retire at age 30, his arm blown apart by the heavy workload.

Even for those who avoided serious injuries, you have named the elite of the elite here. They were physical freaks. You didn't name the hundreds (or more) who couldn't hack the workload. Why? Because they were done before they ever had a chance to be great.

There has to be a middle ground between working guys 300+ innings ... and coddling them so much that they expect to be relieved if they encounter even a little 6th-inning trouble.

The other thing that is different is relief pitching. In the "olden days," relievers were failed starters and a team only carried a few of them so they could have extra position players. Now, relievers are bred, especially closers, and the craft is so specialized. Pitchers now make up more than half the 25-man roster for most teams.

A manager would rather go with a fresh left-hander to face a good lefty hitter in the seventh inning than stick with a tired right-hander who already has thrown 98 pitches. Strategically, that does makes sense.

Most of the elite pitchers still work into the eighth inning pretty regularly. But now they are on 4 or even 5 days' rest, they are allowed to skip a start to help head off "dead arm," etc.

I laugh when people talk about supposedly unbreakable records, and they list DiMaggio's streak or some other hitting number. You want unbreakable modern (post-1900) records? Take a look at Ed Walsh's 464 innings, Cy Young's 749 career complete games, Grover Alexander's 16 shutouts and Jack Chesbro's 41 wins.

THOSE are records that will never, ever, ever, EVER be broken.

You make so many good points here.

As you said, Koufax - the greatest pitcher to ever play - was done at 30. Drysdale was done at 31. And so few starters back then pitched until their late 30s'.


The mound was higher as well, which was a huge difference. Pitchers had a much greater advantage over batters and lower ERAs meant SPs were in the games longer.

 

[GGGG]

American League pitchers, (even the ones who can handle a bat-- like Buehrle), benefit from not having a spot in the batting order.  Koufax/Drysdale era Iron Men pitchers came up to hit with the game on the line, adding to the impressiveness of their accomplishments.  Even a more recent player like Maddux, (who probably pitched 200 innings 20 times), had to not only pitch well but also move runners.

Counterpoint:  American League pitchers don't get to pitch to a pitcher.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

American League pitchers, (even the ones who can handle a bat-- like Buehrle), benefit from not having a spot in the batting order.  Koufax/Drysdale era Iron Men pitchers came up to hit with the game on the line, adding to the impressiveness of their accomplishments.  Even a more recent player like Maddux, (who probably pitched 200 innings 20 times), had to not only pitch well but also move runners.

I'm not so sure that really makes the much of a difference. Outside the Arrietas, Bumgardners and Syndaguards most pitchers don't even try to hit. Lester for example, pretty much walks to first on every ground ball he hits.

[buckchuckler]

I'm old enough to remember the golden age of starting pitching. 300 innings pitched was the standard by which you judged a starting pitcher.

Think about it. Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mickey Lolich or Bert Blyleven. You didn't relieve these guys because it was an assault on their manhood. Koufax was throwing 99 mile an hour bbs in the eighth inning. You crossed Gibson and you lived to regret it.

What were they doing different in those days?

I could be wrong but wasn't Koufax much like Kershaw, in that he didn't need 99 to get outs.  I may be wrong here but I believe he kind of lived in the  low to mid 90s range and his out pitch was the hook.  (*** Complete disclaimer, never saw him pitch, just the stuff I have picked up through anecdotes.  I have never heard anyone wax poetic about Sandy's fastball, it is all the curve.  Guys like Feller got all the credit for their fastballs.)

It is a different time.  It isn't going back.  The Rangers tried a couple years back to make guys tougher by having them work more, most of those guys got hurt.

There are only a dozen or so guys that can be counted on for 200+ innings.  Enjoy them now, in 15 years 150 IP may be the workhorse benchmark. 

[brandx]

I could be wrong but wasn't Koufax much like Kershaw, in that he didn't need 99 to get outs.  I may be wrong here but I believe he kind of lived in the  low to mid 90s range and his out pitch was the hook.  (*** Complete disclaimer, never saw him pitch, just the stuff I have picked up through anecdotes.  I have never heard anyone wax poetic about Sandy's fastball, it is all the curve.  Guys like Feller got all the credit for their fastballs.)

 

Koufax had the best fastball in baseball at the time and unlike modern pitchers, he threw it up in the strike zone. But hitters had to sit on the fastball, anyway. His curve was probably the best of all time and was unhittable when it was on.

But because of the heavy workload - at times on 2 days rest - he often had to pitch without the curve. But he had the pitch location ability of a Greg Maddux to go along with the great fastball and curve.

Most unusual was that he was a two-pitch pitcher - something you rarely see in a starter.

Koufax was a treat to watch. He, along with Jim Palmer, had the easiest, most fluid deliveries I have ever seen.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Cubs trade Dan Vogelbach and Paul Blackburn to Ms for Mike Montgomery and Jordan Pries

Montgomery is a very solid addition to the pen in an area of need for the Cubs. I like it.

[buckchuckler]

Cubs trade Dan Vogelbach and Paul Blackburn to Ms for Mike Montgomery and Jordan Pries

Montgomery is a very solid addition to the pen in an area of need for the Cubs. I like it.

Yeah, Vogelbach may be good but was nothing more than depth for the Cubs.  Seems like a solid deal for both. 

[buckchuckler]

Koufax had the best fastball in baseball at the time and unlike modern pitchers, he threw it up in the strike zone. But hitters had to sit on the fastball, anyway. His curve was probably the best of all time and was unhittable when it was on.

But because of the heavy workload - at times on 2 days rest - he often had to pitch without the curve. But he had the pitch location ability of a Greg Maddux to go along with the great fastball and curve.

Most unusual was that he was a two-pitch pitcher - something you rarely see in a starter.

Koufax was a treat to watch. He, along with Jim Palmer, had the easiest, most fluid deliveries I have ever seen.

Well, when one of the two is the best ever, you can get away with it.  Apparently the fastest Koufax was ever clocked was about 93.2.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Yeah, Vogelbach may be good but was nothing more than depth for the Cubs.  Seems like a solid deal for both.

Agreed.  Hope Vogelbach does well in Seattle.  With Rizzo and no DH he had nowhere to play. 

[brandx]

Well, when one of the two is the best ever, you can get away with it.  Apparently the fastest Koufax was ever clocked was about 93.2.

They had some pretty funky ways of measuring back then. Many hitters of the era said he was the hardest thrower in either league.

[dgies9156]

I agree there were pitchers who suffered in silence and others whose careers were cut short.

Koufax had the aforementioned elbow problems. Drysdale had rotator cuff problems after 1968. But Gibson was around until 1974, after breaking in during the early 1960s. Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Juan Marichal all had full-length careers. And when you think about people like Phil Niekro, who with a knuckleball barely qualified as a pitcher, you realize that there were at the time a large number of pitchers who did hang around for a long time.

I saw many of these guys and I think the reason was they were aggressive and went after hitters. Pitch count is real, but if you 110 over nine innings you pitch complete games. I also suspect the longer  games, caused by television, are a factor.

Incidentally, you want a record not likely to ever be broken -- Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. That happened with a huge number of complete games and 300 innings pitched. Never will anyone have an ERA even close to 1.12.

[buckchuckler]

I agree there were pitchers who suffered in silence and others whose careers were cut short.

Koufax had the aforementioned elbow problems. Drysdale had rotator cuff problems after 1968. But Gibson was around until 1974, after breaking in during the early 1960s. Tom Seaver, Ferguson Jenkins, Juan Marichal all had full-length careers. And when you think about people like Phil Niekro, who with a knuckleball barely qualified as a pitcher, you realize that there were at the time a large number of pitchers who did hang around for a long time.

I saw many of these guys and I think the reason was they were aggressive and went after hitters. Pitch count is real, but if you 110 over nine innings you pitch complete games. I also suspect the longer  games, caused by television, are a factor.

Incidentally, you want a record not likely to ever be broken -- Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. That happened with a huge number of complete games and 300 innings pitched. Never will anyone have an ERA even close to 1.12.

Yeah, when they change the rules because of you, you must have been pretty dominant.

[MerrittsMustache]

Agreed.  Hope Vogelbach does well in Seattle.  With Rizzo and no DH he had nowhere to play.

The "eventual NL DH" role is reserved for Schwarber anyway.

[buckchuckler]

Rick Hahn essentially saying the Sox are "open for business".  Another disappointing, under preforming season for the Sox. 

[GGGG]

Rick Hahn essentially saying the Sox are "open for business".  Another disappointing, under preforming season for the Sox. 

Which everyone outside the organization knew it would be.

[buckchuckler]

There is no doubt in my mind that you are the smartest person on the internet. 

[brandx]

I saw many of these guys and I think the reason was they were aggressive and went after hitters. Pitch count is real, but if you 110 over nine innings you pitch complete games. I also suspect the longer  games, caused by television, are a factor.

Incidentally, you want a record not likely to ever be broken -- Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. That happened with a huge number of complete games and 300 innings pitched. Never will anyone have an ERA even close to 1.12.

As Chuckler said, changing the rules had a lot to do with things. 2 rules specifically: Changing the size of the strike zone greatly increased Ks and reduced walks. But the biggest was lowering the height of the mound by 5 inches. Raise the mound back to where it was when Gibby was pitching and Kershaw (among others) is in the running to beat Gibson's mark.

[brandx]

There is no doubt in my mind that you are the smartest person on the internet.

They need to tear the White Sox down to nothing and start over. Otherwise they are a middle of the road team for the years to come.

Every single player should be on the block in order to get younger and more talented.

[Blackhat]

White Sox need new ownership.   

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

White Sox need new ownership.

Agreed, and the sad part is I think Hahn could be a really good GM if he is given the tools and the green light. Though I did hear today that the White Sox were supposedly offered a "kings ransom" for Sale today and that was turned down.

Now, who knows what that actually means but I'm thinking everybody is up for grabs with exception of Abreu and Anderson.