Are American men in crisis?

[muwarrior69]

He raises some interesting points. I would like to hear if he is correct?

http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/07/tucker-american-men-are-in-crisis-jordan-peterson/

[Anti-Dentite]

This should go well...

[tower912]

Self inflicted.

[Lennys Tap]

Self inflicted.

To a certain extent, to be sure. But if these numbers are accurate this is a topic worthy of discussion...or it would have been, anyway, in the old days when people had discussions.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

He has the symptoms right but the diagnosis wrong. Men do have higher rates of suicide and depression....but also use mental health services at a fraction of the rate women do. Men do struggle academically more than women....but use tutoring and academic support services at a fraction of the rate women do. Men abuse alcohol and drugs at a much higher rate but seek help at a fraction of the rate that women do.

All these behaviors, not caring about academics, use of alcohol/drugs, and most of all not seeking help are associated with traditional definitions of masculinity. The difference between now and 10, 20, 30 years ago is that there is more support and less discrimination against women, so they are catching up and may one day pass men. I have advocated for more services designed specifically for male students since I did my thesis on it grad school.

He is right that there is resistance to ideas like this. I have been told things before like "we don't need a men's center, the whole world is a men's center." I think this is a counterproductive and unnecessarily antagonist view of gender identity development.

[Marquette Gyros]

Related... even if we've got our crap together, we're in crisis:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2017/03/09/the-biggest-threat-facing-middle-age-men-isn-smoking-obesity-loneliness/k6saC9FnnHQCUbf5mJ8okL/story.html

The editor told me there was all sorts of evidence out there about how men, as they age, let their close friendships lapse, and that that fact can cause all sorts of problems and have a terrible impact on their health.

[Jay Bee]

#SaveTheMen

[Benny B]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.  That's what I took from the whole thing.  Tower hit the nail on the head... self-inflicted.

Personally, I'm really sick of this whole man, woman, boy, girl, cis, trans, hetero, homo, left, right, black, white, Shaq, midget, pony, donkey stereotyping and pigeon-holing.  Your life is what you make of it... if you put your entire stock of self-worth in what other people and society think of you, then of course you're going to resort to abusing drugs, contemplating suicide, depression, etc.  Welcome to the world-embracing phenomenon of social media, people... it's the new Hotel California, and it's the least discriminating part of our society.

[GGGG]

He has the symptoms right but the diagnosis wrong. Men do have higher rates of suicide and depression....but also use mental health services at a fraction of the rate women do. Men do struggle academically more than women....but use tutoring and academic support services at a fraction of the rate women do. Men abuse alcohol and drugs at a much higher rate but seek help at a fraction of the rate that women do.

All these behaviors, not caring about academics, use of alcohol/drugs, and most of all not seeking help are associated with traditional definitions of masculinity. The difference between now and 10, 20, 30 years ago is that there is more support and less discrimination against women, so they are catching up and may one day pass men. I have advocated for more services designed specifically for male students since I did my thesis on it grad school.

He is right that there is resistance to ideas like this. I have been told things before like "we don't need a men's center, the whole world is a men's center." I think this is a counterproductive and unnecessarily antagonist view of gender identity development.

Yep on all counts. Well stated.

More rugged masculinity isn’t fixing these issues.

[muwarrior69]

He has the symptoms right but the diagnosis wrong. Men do have higher rates of suicide and depression....but also use mental health services at a fraction of the rate women do. Men do struggle academically more than women....but use tutoring and academic support services at a fraction of the rate women do. Men abuse alcohol and drugs at a much higher rate but seek help at a fraction of the rate that women do.

All these behaviors, not caring about academics, use of alcohol/drugs, and most of all not seeking help are associated with traditional definitions of masculinity. The difference between now and 10, 20, 30 years ago is that there is more support and less discrimination against women, so they are catching up and may one day pass men. I have advocated for more services designed specifically for male students since I did my thesis on it grad school.

He is right that there is resistance to ideas like this. I have been told things before like "we don't need a men's center, the whole world is a men's center." I think this is a counterproductive and unnecessarily antagonist view of gender identity development.

Do you think a lot of it may be to no father figure in the home?

[Hards Alumni]

Do you think a lot of it may be to no father figure in the home?

Absolutely not.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Do you think a lot of it may be to no father figure in the home?

Could be a factor in some cases, there is plenty of data to suggest that people benefit from having role models who look like them. But trust me, I know more students from two parent households who are having these issues then I do students from single parent households.

I think a bigger factor is poor role models as father figures. And when I say poor role models, I mean specifically on gender roles. A lot of those attitudes I talked about earlier, dismissal of academics, use of alcohol and drugs, and inability to ask for help are often taught to sons by fathers who are otherwise great role models. I have an amazing father who I love and look up to, but I definitely learned some bad habits from him....namely yelling at the TV when Marquette is losing!

[Pakuni]

Could be a factor in some cases, there is plenty of data to suggest that people benefit from having role models who look like them. But trust me, I know more students from two parent households who are having these issues then I do students from single parent households.

I think a bigger factor is poor role models as father figures. And when I say poor role models, I mean specifically on gender roles. A lot of those attitudes I talked about earlier, dismissal of academics, use of alcohol and drugs, and inability to ask for help are often taught to sons by fathers who are otherwise great role models. I have an amazing father who I love and look up to, but I definitely learned some bad habits from him....namely yelling at the TV when Marquette is losing!

Agreed. Boys are taught from a very young age that seeking help and discussing feelings are signs of weakness, and there's not a much worse for a man than being perceived as weak. On the flip side, the behaviors and attitudes often lauded as manly - recklessness, stoicism, aggressiveness - are what create some of these problems in the first place.

So, yes, it wouldn't be wrong to say men are in crisis. But some of the commonly blamed factors for this - feminism, affirmative action, multiculturalism, political correctness, and so on - are just scapegoats.

[tower912]

A father figure who is still a superannuated child hurts more than no father figure.

[WarriorDad]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.  That's what I took from the whole thing.  Tower hit the nail on the head... self-inflicted.

Personally, I'm really sick of this whole man, woman, boy, girl, cis, trans, hetero, homo, left, right, black, white, Shaq, midget, pony, donkey stereotyping and pigeon-holing.  Your life is what you make of it... if you put your entire stock of self-worth in what other people and society think of you, then of course you're going to resort to abusing drugs, contemplating suicide, depression, etc.  Welcome to the world-embracing phenomenon of social media, people... it's the new Hotel California, and it's the least discriminating part of our society.

We have done a bang up job of dividing America the last 30 years into victim groups.  Mostly for political gains.  Sad, but effective for each side.  Ruinous as a society, eventually it all comes down.  Maybe that is the goal. 

[JWags85]

Agreed. Boys are taught from a very young age that seeking help and discussing feelings are signs of weakness, and there's not a much worse for a man than being perceived as weak. On the flip side, the behaviors and attitudes often lauded as manly - recklessness, stoicism, aggressiveness - are what create some of these problems in the first place.

As Ive gotten older (early 30s so I'm not claiming to have it all figured out though), Ive started to see these "expectations" creep in from people, many of which seem so antiquated.  Ive had friends withdraw as they've gotten married and had kids, which in and of itself is fine, but then thats coupled with people commenting like "well, when you have a family, you give up friends".  Not that you make sacrifices in your social life, but that you become some mythical head of household who has no needs but being a provider and protector.  Look at a lot of traditional male archetypes in media, they have a drink with their coworker, but dont really have male friends other than the husbands of their wives' friends.  That sort of thing gets VERY isolating.

You dont need to have your buddy that you go out every Saturday and get drunk and chase girls with, but retaining some of those close friendships from early adulthood are a major component of successful life transitions and stability.

[WarriorDad]

He raises some interesting points. I would like to hear if he is correct?

http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/07/tucker-american-men-are-in-crisis-jordan-peterson/

Yes, and I believe the social science is starting to back this up.  A portion of society, largely male, are in crisis with changing roles, less reliance by spouses, rise of feminism, rise of jobs requiring brains and not brawn.  The role of the male breadwinner and patriarch for so long as changed rapidly.  I'm in this age group, I've seen peers of mine go through suicide and  wandering about trying to figure out their roles.  Part of it is self inflicted because as men from bygone eras we were taught not to cry, not to ask for help, be strong, be the rock.  When these men need help, they don't know how to ask for it because they feel it is a weakness.  Or so the talking head social scientists say on the tv.  Feels like there is some truth to that.

[Jockey]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.  That's what I took from the whole thing.  Tower hit the nail on the head... self-inflicted.

Personally, I'm really sick of this whole man, woman, boy, girl, cis, trans, hetero, homo, left, right, black, white, Shaq, midget, pony, donkey stereotyping and pigeon-holing.  Your life is what you make of it... if you put your entire stock of self-worth in what other people and society think of you, then of course you're going to resort to abusing drugs, contemplating suicide, depression, etc.  Welcome to the world-embracing phenomenon of social media, people... it's the new Hotel California, and it's the least discriminating part of our society.

Completely agree. My wife and I are constantly joking about the "whiny little b*tches" that white men have become? 

Let's just make sure though, that we distinguish between mental illness and the "whiners" with "terrible" lives who voted for the pig in the White House.

And speaking of whining, how many more of these right-wing talking point posts do we have to endure here? How did Heisy miss this one?

And it's precious that Tucker Carlson, the actual true life poster boy for whiny white men, actually wrote this. I'll try to ramp up some sympathy for the "man babies", but it's gonna be hard.


My " key is getting warm from overuse, so I need to end this and give the whiners time to report my "political" post.

[Anti-Dentite]

F this discussion, I’m fine.

[GGGG]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.  That's what I took from the whole thing.  Tower hit the nail on the head... self-inflicted.

Personally, I'm really sick of this whole man, woman, boy, girl, cis, trans, hetero, homo, left, right, black, white, Shaq, midget, pony, donkey stereotyping and pigeon-holing.  Your life is what you make of it... if you put your entire stock of self-worth in what other people and society think of you, then of course you're going to resort to abusing drugs, contemplating suicide, depression, etc.  Welcome to the world-embracing phenomenon of social media, people... it's the new Hotel California, and it's the least discriminating part of our society.

Well of course people are going to put their sense of self-worth in what others think of them. Humans are social animals.  The idea that you isolate that from your development is part of the problem.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Do you think a lot of it may be to no father figure in the home?

Who exactly are you thinking of here?

[jesmu84]

As per typical superbar posts...

- some good discussion
- some blatant attacks
- some code words/dog whistles

I foresee this going well.

[MerrittsMustache]

Completely agree. My wife and I are constantly joking about the "whiny little b*tches" that white men have become? 

Let's just make sure though, that we distinguish between mental illness and the "whiners" with "terrible" lives who voted for the pig in the White House.

And speaking of whining, how many more of these right-wing talking point posts do we have to endure here? How did Heisy miss this one?

And it's precious that Tucker Carlson, the actual true life poster boy for whiny white men, actually wrote this. I'll try to ramp up some sympathy for the "man babies", but it's gonna be hard.


My " key is getting warm from overuse, so I need to end this and give the whiners time to report my "political" post.

When in doubt, blame Republicans!

[Pakuni]

As per typical superbar posts...

- some good discussion
- some blatant attacks
- some code words/dog whistles

I foresee this going well.

- some predictions it will end well

[Dr. Blackheart]

Can we have a serious discussion here about male menopause?