Jamail Jones

[tompopsicle]

Thanks.  I knew I was missing one or two because the scholarship table didn't go far enough back.  So I can't see any player that meets wade's initial statement of going to a "smaller school and doing really well."

If Buzz can be faulted for anything, it's that he had way too many recruiting "misses" from the high school ranks.

So let's see if I have this right...

*3 signees had offers pulled (Roseboro, Newbill, Durley)
*6 transferred out under Buzz (Smith, Williams, Jones, Maymon, Mbao, Ferguson)
*2 transferred out under Wojo (Dawson, Deonte)
*2 left for pros (Blue, Mayo)
*3 graduated (Junior, Otule, Gardner)
*6 still with the program (Taylor, Johnson, Duane, Sandy, Juan, Derrick)

So of the 22 high school players signed by Buzz Williams, at best only 9 will graduate with degrees from Marquette.  (Assuming Vander and Todd (HA!) don't come back to finish up.)

Unless I am missing some, that is pretty lame.

Would you say Mbakwe transferred out under Buzz? He went on to have a solid career at Minn.

[MU B2002]

Would you say Mbakwe transferred out under Buzz? He went on to have a solid career at Minn.

I think the criteria was high school players recruited by Buzz.

[wadesworld]

Would you say Mbakwe transferred out under Buzz? He went on to have a solid career at Minn.

Yup.  Mbakwe, Christopherson both transferred out.  You can debate whether they should be included because of the coaching change, but I can tell you Christopherson was more or less told he'd be left out of the rotation.  He went on to have an All Big-12 career.  Mbakwe was very good for Minnesota.  Newbill was a stud for Penn State, although I suppose he technically didn't transfer.  I guess I worded it wrong and should've said that even with some of the transfers who did nothing, his high school recruits that ended up transferring still produced more than the high school recruits that played college basketball only at Marquette.

[GGGG]

Yup.  Mbakwe, Christopherson both transferred out.  You can debate whether they should be included because of the coaching change, but I can tell you Christopherson was more or less told he'd be left out of the rotation.  He went on to have an All Big-12 career.  Mbakwe was very good for Minnesota.  Newbill was a stud for Penn State, although I suppose he technically didn't transfer.  I guess I worded it wrong and should've said that even with some of the transfers who did nothing, his high school recruits that ended up transferring still produced more than the high school recruits that played college basketball only at Marquette.

Christopherson and Mbakwe shouldn't be included because they don't meet the original definition that you originally laid out.

"Interesting that Bert's high school recruits rarely lived up to their hype coming out of high school, but those that did transfer (because, we thought, they couldn't cut it at the high major level) seem to go to smaller schools but do really well."

Neither Christopherson nor Mbakwe were "Bert's (sic) high school recruits."

If you want to play a five-on-five between his recruits that transferred, and those who stayed, the latter would win by a mile.

[MuWarrior19]

Do you count TJ. Taylor leaving right before the season?

[wadesworld]

Christopherson and Mbakwe shouldn't be included because they don't meet the original definition that you originally laid out.

"Interesting that Bert's high school recruits rarely lived up to their hype coming out of high school, but those that did transfer (because, we thought, they couldn't cut it at the high major level) seem to go to smaller schools but do really well."

Neither Christopherson nor Mbakwe were "Bert's (sic) high school recruits."

If you want to play a five-on-five between his recruits that transferred, and those who stayed, the latter would win by a mile.

You're right, they weren't his recruits.  Which is probably why they ended up having nice careers.  He didn't recruit the high school circuit well at all.

[GGGG]

Do you count TJ. Taylor leaving right before the season?

He was originally a transfer from Oklahoma by way of some Juco.

[GGGG]

You're right, they weren't his recruits.  Which is probably why they ended up having nice careers.  He didn't recruit the high school circuit well at all.

Well I agree with that.  As I said earlier, too many misses.

[wadesworld]

Well I agree with that.  As I said earlier, too many misses.

I guess it was a poor way of saying that players seem to have lacked the ability to make the move from player with potential to a player who reached his potential under Bert.  He seemed to be most successful with guys who came in having been coached at a higher level than high school (JUCOs and I suppose a transfer like Lockett) and just needed more motivation than skill development than he had with his high school kids.  Guys like Junior and Vander were good and did develop some in college, but if anything I would say they fell short of their potential.  Gardner obviously exceeded expectations/hype coming out of high school.  We are seeing guys like Juan and Derrick develop more in one offseason with Wojo than they did in 3 years with Bert (maybe this isn't as much about skill development as it is about a confidence they never had before, I really don't know, but either way they are playing by far better than what their trajectory looked like before Bert left).

[tompopsicle]

Christopherson and Mbakwe shouldn't be included because they don't meet the original definition that you originally laid out.

"Interesting that Bert's high school recruits rarely lived up to their hype coming out of high school, but those that did transfer (because, we thought, they couldn't cut it at the high major level) seem to go to smaller schools but do really well."

Neither Christopherson nor Mbakwe were "Bert's (sic) high school recruits."

If you want to play a five-on-five between his recruits that transferred, and those who stayed, the latter would win by a mile.

I think if Christopherson and Mbakwe aren't included under Buzz then Mayo shouldn't be under Wojo, even if he turned pro instead of transferring.

[MerrittsMustache]

I really think that Buzz had no problem filling 1-2 schollies with projects who were viewed as having borderline BE talent, if that. If things worked out to some extent, great (ie Otule, Gardner). If not, he wouldn't hesitate to encourage their departure, to put it mildly (ie Mbao, Roseboro, Ferguson). That's just his recruiting style.

[brewcity77]

You're right, they weren't his recruits.  Which is probably why they ended up having nice careers.  He didn't recruit the high school circuit well at all.

I have felt the same way, and thought I'd look at the results.

2009 - 0/4 met or exceeded expectations

• Junior Cadougan: 3.5-year player, 2 year starter. Remembered fondly, but underwhelming for a top-50 recruit. Averaged 7.4 ppg/4.6 apg/2.6 tpg as a starter, shot 21.7% from beyond the arc for his career.
  
• Jeronne Maymon: 0.5-year player, had good career at Tennessee but did virtually nothing here.
  
• Erik Williams: 2-year player, transferred to Sam Houston State and was never heard from again.
  
• Yous Mbao: 1-year player, transferred to Marshall and did virtually nothing.

.
2010 - 2/4 met or exceeded expectations

• Vander Blue: 3-year player, 2 year starter. Disappointed for first 1.5 years, but improved measurably in his sophomore and junior years. 14.8 ppg/3.2 rpg/30.3% 3P as a junior before (erroneously) declaring for the draft.
  
• Davante Gardner: 4-year player, 2-year starter. Didn't always start, but played 20+ mpg his junior and senior years. Averaged 12.1 ppg/5.3 rpg over his last 3 years here, the most consistent contributor of Buzz's high school recruits over his tenure.
  
• Reggie Smith: 0.5-year player. Transferred to UNLV, then Eastern Illinois, then who knows, maybe Burger King.
  
• Jamail Jones: 2-year player. Never came close to top-100 expectations. Transferred to FGCU where he has been adequate, but not what you would expect of a top-100 prospect in a small conference.

.
2011 - 0/3 met or exceeded expectations

• Todd Mayo: 3-year player, 1 year starter. When he played, he had the potential to be good, but never really lived up to MU fans' hopes. Promising freshman year, off-court train wreck his sophomore year, decent junior year, putting up 11.3 ppg/2.7 rpg. Then "decided to go pro."
  
• Juan Anderson: 4-year player, 2-year starter. Juan has been a huge success as a senior, after 3 lackluster seasons. 11.3 ppg/6.6 rpg while playing a similar jack-of-all-trades role we've seen Crowder and Lockett play in the past.
  
• Derrick Wilson: 4-year player, 2-year starter. Maybe the most controversial player under Buzz, is clearly limited but has put up numbers consistent with MU's point play since Dominic James left. 5.4 ppg/3.9 apg/3.7 rpg/1.3 tpg over his junior & senior years.

.
2012 - 0/2 met or exceeded expectations

• Steve Taylor: 3-year player, 1-year starter. Did virtually nothing under Buzz, has been a role-player under Wojo, averaging 6.2 ppg/5.3 rpg.
  
• Jamal Ferguson: 1-year player. Transferred out, has had an up-and-down sophomore year at NC-Central.

.
2013 - 2/4 could meet or exceed expectations

• Jajuan Johnson: 2-year player, 1-year starter. Didn't play much as a freshman, has had mixed results as a sophomore, putting up 9.1 ppg/2.9 rpg at the midway mark.
  
• Deonte Burton: 1.5-year player. Showed flashes as a freshman, followed the Jameel McKay plan of transferring to ISU as a sophomore.
  
• Duane Wilson: 0.5-year player, 0.5-year starter. Shows lots of potential, tallying 11.2 ppg/2.2 apg in his first year. Arguably the most successful freshman year to date of a Buzz recruit.
  
• John Dawson: 1.5-year player. He will always have Georgetown and the love of Ners. That's more than most college kids ever get. Transferred as a sophomore.

.
People could certainly argue which players met or exceeded expectations, but 8/17 recruits (not including 2014 recruits due to coaching change) transferred out, so I think you'd have to chalk all those up as disappointments.

Cadougan was okay, but for a top-50 kid to never make an all-conference team or average double-digit scoring has to be considered coming up short. Blue and Gardner were unquestioned success stories. Mayo could be argued as successful, I suppose, but there's certainly debate there. He didn't fill Blue's shoes, and was seemingly kicked off the team three times with the third time being when Wojo made it final. Juan and Derrick could probably get to the meeting expectations point if Juan has a big year and Derrick just keeps doing what he's been doing of late. As a 3-star recruit, Derrick has put up numbers that all-around are about as good as Cadougan had, and the expectation has to be lower for Derrick than it was for Junior.

Jury is still out on the two 2013 recruits that stayed, but they probably have the chance to be Buzz's two most successful high school recruits at Marquette. Ironic that to do so, it will be with someone other than Buzz as their coach for most of their careers.

Out of 17 high school players recruited, at best 4-5 met expectations, with Blue and Mayo being debatable and Johnson and Duane being too early to say. Either way, not the best of track records. Compare that to JUCOs, where Jae, DJO, and Dwight all met or exceeded expectations with only Jameel (due to transfer) really coming up short and you have a major discrepancy in his track rate.

[MU82]

I guess I worded it wrong and should've said that even with some of the transfers who did nothing, his high school recruits that ended up transferring still produced more than the high school recruits that played college basketball only at Marquette.

Patently false.

Blue, Mayo, Gardner, Juan, Jajuan, Duane and Taylor would absolutely annihilate any group of Buzz H.S. recruits who ended up transferring. And I'll even give you Newbill (but not Mbakwe).

[Silkk the Shaka]

Patently false.

Blue, Mayo, Gardner, Juan, Jajuan, Duane and Taylor would absolutely annihilate any group of Buzz H.S. recruits who ended up transferring. And I'll even give you Newbill (but not Mbakwe).

Correct. I think people are confusing the HS transfer vs. non-transfer argument with HS vs. JUCO. That's where there's an argument. Virtually every one of Buzz' HS recruits that transferred out did nothing at lower levels. We are better off in aggregate for them having left. The JUCO guys, however, were heavily weighted towards superstars. We were MUCH better off in aggregate for them having been here.

[wadesworld]

Patently false.

Blue, Mayo, Gardner, Juan, Jajuan, Duane and Taylor would absolutely annihilate any group of Buzz H.S. recruits who ended up transferring. And I'll even give you Newbill (but not Mbakwe).

So you'll "give" me Newbill but not Mbakwe or Christopherson, but you'll keep Duane, Juan, JaJuan, and Mayo?  JaJuan would've been gone, Mayo was never eligible, Duane and Juan never produced anything significant for Buzz and only started to do anything for Wojo (by the way, what have Taylor and Duane done in college basketball?  They both had 1 good game this year...)...

If you're going to include those guys, I'll include guys like Mbakwe, Christopherson, Maymon, Newbill, and Jones or Taylor and it's a lot closer than you think.

[MU B2002]

So you'll "give" me Newbill but not Mbakwe or Christopherson, but you'll keep Duane, Juan, JaJuan, and Mayo?  JaJuan would've been gone, Mayo was never eligible, Duane and Juan never produced anything significant for Buzz and only started to do anything for Wojo (by the way, what have Taylor and Duane done in college basketball?  They both had 1 good game this year...)...

If you're going to include those guys, I'll include guys like Mbakwe, Christopherson, Maymon, Newbill, and Jones or Taylor and it's a lot closer than you think.

Mbakwe, Christopherson, Taylor(Tyshawn): Not buzz recruits so pretty irrelevant to this argument.

[wadesworld]

Mbakwe, Christopherson, Taylor(Tyshawn): Not buzz recruits so pretty irrelevant to this argument.

As would JaJuan, Taylor, and possibly Duane given that they would've been gone had Bert stayed.  Not to mention Juan never did anything until Bert left and Mayo left (AKA was asked to leave).

Like I later said, I misworded my overall point.

[GB Warrior]

As would JaJuan, Taylor, and possibly Duane given that they would've been gone had Bert stayed.  Not to mention Juan never did anything until Bert left and Mayo left (AKA was asked to leave).

Like I later said, I misworded my overall point.

I think Juan is playing well, but his stats are more or less equivalent per minute. But he is definitely showing up as a leader, which won't show up on any stat sheet.

[Pakuni]

I think Juan is playing well, but his stats are more or less equivalent per minute. But he is definitely showing up as a leader, which won't show up on any stat sheet.

In terms of raw numbers, perhaps, but his advanced stats are way up.
His eFG% went from .403 last year to .601 so far this year.
His true shooting percentage is up from .400 to .600.
His offensive rating is up (92.0 to 108.9) as is his defensive rating (93.6 to 98.0).

[brandx]

In terms of raw numbers, perhaps, but his advanced stats are way up.
His eFG% went from .403 last year to .601 so far this year.
His true shooting percentage is up from .400 to .600.
His offensive rating is up (92.0 to 108.9) as is his defensive rating (93.6 to 98.0).

Is his offensive rating up because he is playing better  or  because he is an option in the offense? Last year he was on the floor (not often enough) to hustle and play defense - nothing more.

Last year he didn't get out and run (almost no one did). Is his eFG% and true shooting percentage any better than last year if we eliminate the runouts?

I just ask because I have contended numerous times on the board that I thought he was just about as good last year and that the only numbers that really matter are 32.2 vs. 13.5