Groom Duane Wilson as PG NOW

[brewcity77]

Derrick is our best rebounding guard, has been a better shooter than in the past and better from range than Jajuan, and is still a better defender than anyone else in the backcourt. Those guys won't fix that if they take Derrick's minutes. With our bench, we don't really have many other options, and we haven't seen anything to indicate those options are better.

[Wojo'sMojo]

I know people don't like aspects of Derrick's game, but right now turnovers are killing us. The reason Derrick is the primary ballhandler is because he can be trusted to protect the ball. Playing him only 10-15 minutes would almost certainly lead to more turnovers.

Are there cases where the trade off might be worth it? Sure. But thus far, neither Duane nor Jajuan have proven they are at that level. Jajuan's shooting hasn't earned it and Duane's ballhandling hasn't earned it.

Like him or not, we need what Derrick brings to that role, and I'm confident we will miss those parts of his game next year. I still have high hopes for both of those guys, but they will learn more and become better players if they earn time rather than just being thrown to the wolves and going it goes well.

I don't think anyone will miss what Derrick brings to the table on offense. His defense is average to good depending on the game, but nowhere near the "elite" defender he is made out to be. I could see us possibly missing his leadership, but that is about all.

[Johnny B]

Seems like the only option.

[Dawson Rental]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Ultimately that's the problem, isn't it?

[WarriorFan]

At a school like Marquette where 4 year players are the norm (with a few JUCO's who end up graduating as another key ingredient) I would NOT want to risk developing a reputation as a coach or a program that ditches it's seniors.

Some of these guys (not Derrick) are good enough to make a few bucks playing pro ball somewhere, and their senior year is the basis for that first pro contract.

Others use it as a basis for developing another career, whether in or out of the basketball industry.  All of these are good for the MU hoops program long term.

Finally, how well is a marginalized senior going to lead?  What example will he set?

I'm saying play the guys that earn the time - but respect the seniors and what they can bring to the program.  What if Brent had marginalized Wes as a senior?

[Dawson Rental]

LOL - I'll take your bait MURS.  I don't believe Wojo is "throwing this season."  I stand by my belief that Buzz was giving admin a Big F You on the way out of town last year.

Lastly, I assume you are implying that if we went to the lineup I suggested in this thread - that would be indicative of trying to throw the season??  Sorry, but just like last year, when you and some others preached patience, Buzz's teams get better, blah, blah - the same is holding true this year and will continue to hold true - we aren't going to win at a decent clip if nothing changes.  Now, we may not win anymore if Wojo does make the change - but at least you are getting playing experience for the future, a diagnostic for the player and coach next year - and that is in the long term interests of the program.  Period.

You misunderstood me.  (In your first paragraph at least.)  Admittedly, I could have been clearer. I didn't mean to imply that you (and others) thought that Wojo was throwing this season.  What I meant was that those who want to have Duane Wilson play the majority of the minutes at point guard in order to "groom" him for the future instead of whoever gives the team the best chance to win are actually hoping that Wojo will do something that will, in fact, "throw" this season.

I am not a believer in the play a player in order to develop him argument.  As others have already pointed out often, that is going with a player who hasn't earned his playing time ahead of one who has.  Under mentioned is the effect on team moral and chemistry such preferential treatment would have.  IMO, practice time and individual development sessions are when development occurs in successful programs.

What irks me about many of your posts, Ners, is that it seems to me that you develop a preference for players based on irrelevant criteria like how highly they were ranked by recruiting services and then do a great deal of logical gymnastics to justify why they should play.  I, and I believe most, if not all, of your critics see you going to the numbers to figure out how to support a position you already hold based on other criteria while those whose opinions I hold in higher esteem seem to go to the numbers to investigate who is playing most effectively and why.  That's a very big difference in approach.

[NersEllenson]

You misunderstood me.  (In your first paragraph at least.)  Admittedly, I could have been clearer. I didn't mean to imply that you (and others) thought that Wojo was throwing this season.  What I meant was that those who want to have Duane Wilson play the majority of the minutes at point guard in order to "groom" him for the future instead of whoever gives the team the best chance to win are actually hoping that Wojo will do something that will, in fact, "throw" this season.

I am not a believer in the play a player in order to develop him argument.  As others have already pointed out often, that is going with a player who hasn't earned his playing time ahead of one who has.  Under mentioned is the effect on team moral and chemistry such preferential treatment would have.  IMO, practice time and individual development sessions are when development occurs in successful programs.

What irks me about many of your posts, Ners, is that it seems to me that you develop a preference for players based on irrelevant criteria like how highly they were ranked by recruiting services and then do a great deal of logical gymnastics to justify why they should play.  I, and I believe most, if not all, of your critics see you going to the numbers to figure out how to support a position you already hold based on other criteria while those whose opinions I hold in higher esteem seem to go to the numbers to investigate who is playing most effectively and why.  That's a very big difference in approach.

No worries Murs.  Let me clarify:  I believe moving Duane to PG and reducing Derrick to 10-15 minutes per game would actually HELP give this team its best chance to win...and groom Duane for the future. I actually felt many of those who disagree with me shared this opinion - that Derrick's ideal role would be 10-15 minutes.  And yes, while he has improved this year, he's production is still commensurate with a 10-15 minute per game player. And this year with Carlino and Duane we do have two other guys that can handle the PG position solidly.

We are now 10-8 for the year, without much in the way of a quality win, a bad loss against NJIT, and are 2-4 in the Big East.  I know some cannot come to terms with the notion that it is EVER possible for a head coach to make a wrong decision with regard to how they allocate playing time.  Just feel this season is going down the exact same path as last season, and if nothing changes, we will likely lose a vast majority of the remaining games, albeit many closely - and we go into the offseason without knowing what might could have been had we made a drastic change in approach.

It is hard to win games when you are consistently at a 5-10 point per game disadvantage at the PG position in virtually every game - particularly when our PG has been given 31.2 minutes per game on average.

[zrjones13]

No worries Murs.  Let me clarify:  I believe moving Duane to PG and reducing Derrick to 10-15 minutes per game would actually HELP give this team its best chance to win...and groom Duane for the future. I actually felt many of those who disagree with me shared this opinion - that Derrick's ideal role would be 10-15 minutes.  And yes, while he has improved this year, he's production is still commensurate with a 10-15 minute per game player. And this year with Carlino and Duane we do have two other guys that can handle the PG position solidly.

We are now 10-8 for the year, without much in the way of a quality win, a bad loss against NJIT, and are 2-4 in the Big East.  I know some cannot come to terms with the notion that it is EVER possible for a head coach to make a wrong decision with regard to how they allocate playing time.  Just feel this season is going down the exact same path as last season, and if nothing changes, we will likely lose a vast majority of the remaining games, albeit many closely - and we go into the offseason without knowing what might could have been had we made a drastic change in approach.

It is hard to win games when you are consistently at a 5-10 point per game disadvantage at the PG position in virtually every game - particularly when our PG has been given 31.2 minutes per game on average.

We beat NJIT this year. 

[willie warrior]

Email the coaches.  I am sure they would appreciate your input.

I'm sure they get a good laugh out the ones that Buzz printed out and left taped to the wall about John Dawson.

Yeah Sultan you are sure about everything, but factual about far less. Highly doubt that Buzz printed out anything about Dawson and left taped to the wall when he was shown the door. Now his comments about Derrick being an elite defender emblazoned in blue and gold are much more likely.

OK, I will agree that both our statements are hyperbole.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Where are you getting your stats, Ners?  I'm showing 32.1 min, 5.0 pts, 4.3 ast, 1.9 reb, and .308 FG%.

Oh wait, that's UVA point guard London Perrantes.

How is that 5-10 point disadvantage treating them?

[brewcity77]

Where are you getting your stats, Ners?  I'm showing 32.1 min, 5.0 pts, 4.3 ast, 1.9 reb, and .308 FG%.

Oh wait, that's UVA point guard London Perrantes.

How is that 5-10 point disadvantage treating them?

Impossible. That would be historically bad!

[GGGG]

Yeah Sultan you are sure about everything, but factual about far less. Highly doubt that Buzz printed out anything about Dawson and left taped to the wall when he was shown the door. Now his comments about Derrick being an elite defender emblazoned in blue and gold are much more likely.

OK, I will agree that both our statements are hyperbole.

Wojo said the same thing on his radio show.  I guess he doesn't know what he is talking about either.

[MUfan12]

Where are you getting your stats, Ners?  I'm showing 32.1 min, 5.0 pts, 4.3 ast, 1.9 reb, and .308 FG%.

Oh wait, that's UVA point guard London Perrantes.

How is that 5-10 point disadvantage treating them?

DAWSON SHOULD HAVE WENT THERE!!!1!

[mu03eng]

OK, legitimate question here.  Ners likes to throw out reducing Derrick's minutes to 10-15 a game down from 31...where do those minutes go? 

Duane is already averaging 27 a game so he can only realistically absorb maybe 5 of the now available 16(assuming Derrick at 15).  That leaves 11 minutes. 

Carlino is at 32 a game so at most he can absorb 1 minute.  We're now down to 10 minutes we have to find someplace to put. 

Luke isn't an option given foul concerns. 

That leaves Teve, Juan, Sandy, and JjJ.  I don't think Teve or Juan need/deserve any more minutes right now, does anyone else? 

That leaves Sandy and JjJ.  In theory the answer is take JjJ from 21 minutes to 31 minutes but JjJ performance has been worse than Derricks.  So basically you are looking to take Sandy from 13 to 18 and JjJ from 21 to 26, that's the winning recipe?

I think Sandy needs more minutes but those are going to be coming at the expense of Juan and Teve, not Derrick.  JjJ is just not better than Derrick right now.

Duane is already playing a lot of minutes, and in principle I agree you move him to PG and see what he does there but then what do you do with Derrick?  Then Derrick is playing off ball and that is definitely not something he is good at.  Because of the make up and performance of the roster, Derrick has to play at least 25 minutes a game...how does he play that many minutes at the 2 and this team still win?

[NersEllenson]

Where are you getting your stats, Ners?  I'm showing 32.1 min, 5.0 pts, 4.3 ast, 1.9 reb, and .308 FG%.

Oh wait, that's UVA point guard London Perrantes.

How is that 5-10 point disadvantage treating them?

Good find Kinsella.  I applaud you.  Highly doubt anyone would have any issues if this team were 18-0.  Or if it were ranked in the Top 10 last season.  But, we've foundered.  And for context:

Perrantes:  SOPHOMORE 74.8% of minutes played, 106.7 OR, 34% 3pt shooter, 88%FT shooter, 23.2% Assist Rate, 26th in country in least fouls committed per 40.

Wilson:  SENIOR:  77.9% of minutes played, 102.6 OR, 29% 3 pt shooter, 48%FT, 21.8% Assist Rate, 204th in country in least fouls committed per 40.

Nobody would suggest messing with a Top 10 team, or an undefeated team.  The formula is working for UVA.  It hasn't at MU..and we had a lot of talent on our team last year, just as we do this year, albeit some of it is gone and underutilized.

[tower912]

Until someone starts to make the argument that the starting line up needs to be Duane, JJJ, Sandy, Steve, and Luke, play them all 30 minutes barring foul trouble, and let Juan, Derrick, and Matt split the last 50....this is all just needlessly beating up on Derrick.

[NersEllenson]

OK, legitimate question here.  Ners likes to throw out reducing Derrick's minutes to 10-15 a game down from 31...where do those minutes go? 

Duane is already averaging 27 a game so he can only realistically absorb maybe 5 of the now available 16(assuming Derrick at 15).  That leaves 11 minutes. 

Carlino is at 32 a game so at most he can absorb 1 minute.  We're now down to 10 minutes we have to find someplace to put. 

Luke isn't an option given foul concerns. 

That leaves Teve, Juan, Sandy, and JjJ.  I don't think Teve or Juan need/deserve any more minutes right now, does anyone else? 

That leaves Sandy and JjJ.  In theory the answer is take JjJ from 21 minutes to 31 minutes but JjJ performance has been worse than Derricks.  So basically you are looking to take Sandy from 13 to 18 and JjJ from 21 to 26, that's the winning recipe?

I think Sandy needs more minutes but those are going to be coming at the expense of Juan and Teve, not Derrick.  JjJ is just not better than Derrick right now.

Duane is already playing a lot of minutes, and in principle I agree you move him to PG and see what he does there but then what do you do with Derrick?  Then Derrick is playing off ball and that is definitely not something he is good at.  Because of the make up and performance of the roster, Derrick has to play at least 25 minutes a game...how does he play that many minutes at the 2 and this team still win?

He doesn't need to play 25 minutes.  You give 20 of his 32 minutes to JJJ and Cohen.  Period.  Both Cohen and JJJ could be just as effective at the bottom of the zone.  Ever see Boheim play a 6'1" guy on the bottom of his zone?  Length in a zone is a huge benefit.  Cohen and JJJ have it.  They both score the ball at a much better rate than Derrick as well - and both have much more time left in the program.  Invest in the future, when the present and past has been a losing investment.

And lastly, as I've said many times, if you give a guy consistent playing time, 30 minutes a game, you will get the best he has to offer.  JJJ and Sandy have yet to have this opportunity.  Let them get into solid rhythms.  

[GGGG]

He doesn't need to play 25 minutes.  You give 20 of his 32 minutes to JJJ and Cohen.  Period.  Both Cohen and JJJ could be just as effective at the bottom of the zone.  Ever see Boheim play a 6'1" guy on the bottom of his zone?  Length in a zone is a huge benefit.  Cohen and JJJ have it. 

Length is great in a 1-3-1...but either up top or on the wings.  On the bottom of a 1-3-1 you want someone who can run the baseline AND mix it up underneath because they invariably are going to be involved with rebounding.  While JJJ and Sandy can do the former, I am not sure they can do the latter.  Derrick is very good at both - Wojo indicated as such on his radio show yesterday.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Length is great in a 1-3-1...but either up top or on the wings.  On the bottom of a 1-3-1 you want someone who can run the baseline AND mix it up underneath because they invariably are going to be involved with rebounding.  While JJJ and Sandy can do the former, I am not sure they can do the latter.  Derrick is very good at both - Wojo indicated as such on his radio show yesterday.

But Wojo doesn't know what the f**k he is talking about. 

[GooooMarquette]

I'd say that all eight scholarship players are receiving plenty of playing time Ners.  I've stood up for you on many occasions because I don't subscribe to the belief that coaches are perfect in their decision making.  In this case I think you're wrong.

Derrick Wilson is one of the best five players on this team this season.  He was terrible last year.  He's improved quite a bit since last season yet he is never going to be what your definition of a point guard should be.  He had a awful night last night (as did many others).  We can argue about potential but when the roster is eight deep and the playing time is fairly equitable thus far (it has been) I'd say everyone is having a chance at development this season.

Is the four minute per game difference that Derrick gets (31.2) over Duane (27.2) the extra four minutes Duane needs to develop???

Think about that for one second.  You're complaining about what amounts to a medium length pop song on the radio in terms of minutes played per game.  Over the course of a season it barely adds up to a feature length film.

Do you really want to go on record saying that the amount of time it takes to watch The Shawshank Redemption is the reason why Duane Wilson won't reach his potential for next season?

Spot on MattyV.  Just one tweak - there are only 12 games left in the regular season, plus at least one in the BET = 13.  That's 52 additional minutes for Duane from here on out.  That'd get you a couple of sitcoms if you fast forward through the commercials.

[MerrittsMustache]

I had a friend in HS who was a big, strong kid even as a freshman. He was athletic and smart and could throw a football a mile. Freshman year, the coaches naturally tried to make him a QB. He looked the part, he had the skills but it just didn't click for him. Same thing sophomore year. As much as the coaches wanted him to be a QB, he didn't make option reads very well, he put no touch on his passes and he typically panicked and just ran the ball when passing plays were called. His junior and senior year, he backed up a 5'10" noodle-armed QB...but was a two-time All-Conference linebacker.

My point? No matter how much a player might "look the part" and no matter how hard he works and no matter how much the coaches may want a player to fit a specific position/role, sometimes it's simply not what's best for the team or the player.

I have no doubt that Wojo wants Duane to be MU's star PG from now until he graduates, but if Duane's game doesn't fit that role, Wojo would be doing a disservice to Duane and the entire team by trying to force him into it.

[willie warrior]

Wojo said the same thing on his radio show.  I guess he doesn't know what he is talking about either.

Oh Thanks. Thought you meant that Wojo said Sultan was sure about everything. Just to confirm, where did Wojo say that Derrick was an elite defender? Haven't heard that. Did hear Buzz say it at least three times.

[GGGG]

Oh Thanks. Thought you meant that Wojo said Sultan was sure about everything. Just to confirm, where did Wojo say that Derrick was an elite defender? Haven't heard that. Did hear Buzz say it at least three times.

Did you read my post that you quoted?

Wojo said the same thing on his radio show.  I guess he doesn't know what he is talking about either.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

He doesn't need to play 25 minutes.  You give 20 of his 32 minutes to JJJ and Cohen.  Period.  Both Cohen and JJJ could be just as effective at the bottom of the zone.  Ever see Boheim play a 6'1" guy on the bottom of his zone?  Length in a zone is a huge benefit.  Cohen and JJJ have it.  They both score the ball at a much better rate than Derrick as well - and both have much more time left in the program.  Invest in the future, when the present and past has been a losing investment.

And lastly, as I've said many times, if you give a guy consistent playing time, 30 minutes a game, you will get the best he has to offer.  JJJ and Sandy have yet to have this opportunity.  Let them get into solid rhythms.  

JjJ hasn't been better than Derrick. Could an argument be made for giving him a few of Derrick's minutes? Sure, but only a couple.

Cohen hasn't been better than Derrick either. But he was better in the last game and may continue to be so. I see two potential problems with Sandy taking Derrick's minutes. One, Sandy plays at the top of the zone, Derrick plays at the bottom/wing. Sultan pointed out Derrick's role in the the 1-3-1 already. But in the 2-3 Sandy's length is best utilized at the top of the zone. He could potentially play the wing but I think he would struggle a bit. But that can be overcome. The second issue I see is our size. Wojo only has four players to play the two post positions and Sandy is one of them. If you point Sandy at the 3, with a combo of Juan/Luke/Steve at the four and the five, you have 3 of your only 4 post players in the game. That can cause some serious fatigue and foul trouble issues. Luke has been a lightening rod for fouls. If Juan is having one of his bad foul games too...that lineup could take us out of a game real early.

I think Sandy's increased minutes will come at the expense of Luke/Juan/Steve. The only players who can take minutes from Derrick are Duane and JjJ. Duane already is getting 27 so he doesn't need too many more. JjJ can earn them with better play. We can't forget that JjJ got 25 or more minutes in 7 games this season. When he is playing well, Wojo will play him.

[mu03eng]

He doesn't need to play 25 minutes.  You give 20 of his 32 minutes to JJJ and Cohen.  Period.  Both Cohen and JJJ could be just as effective at the bottom of the zone.  Ever see Boheim play a 6'1" guy on the bottom of his zone?  Length in a zone is a huge benefit.  Cohen and JJJ have it.  They both score the ball at a much better rate than Derrick as well - and both have much more time left in the program.  Invest in the future, when the present and past has been a losing investment.

And lastly, as I've said many times, if you give a guy consistent playing time, 30 minutes a game, you will get the best he has to offer.  JJJ and Sandy have yet to have this opportunity.  Let them get into solid rhythms.  

You're about the eye test, watch when Derrick's at the bottom of the 1-3-1 versus anyone else.  Length doesn't matter down there and he is smarter at it then everyone else that could play there.

Regardless, throw out the 1-3-1 there is no way you can justify JjJ get 32 minutes a game, that's more than Duane gets.  Just insane.  Cohen's minutes are starting to ramp up but again, he's not taking those from Derrick, they aren't interchangable.