Discuss MUBB Dark Ages (1978 to 2002) Here

[Not A Serious Person]

Old Timers act like the Al McGuire era was just a few weeks ago.

Millennials think MU basketball began with Wade's triple-double against Kentucky in 2003.

So here post your thoughts/comments about MU's "dark ages," the period between the National Championship (1977) and the Final Four year of 2003.

The get the ball rolling ...

Best Dark Ages Players
Jim Mac
Doc Rivers
Tony Smith
Brian Wardle
Kerry Trotter
Oliver Lee
Cordell Henry
Amal McCaskill
Damon Key
Dwayne Wade (2002 version only)
Who else?  Agree with the order?

Best Dark Ages Games
Jan 5, 1981 beating #5 ND (which I believe was the highest rated victory of the Dark Ages)
March 1994, the second round defeat of Kentucky to earn a sweet 16 berth
March 1995, NIT Semifinal win over Penn State
What else?

Best Dark Ages Coaches
Kevin O'Neill
Mike Deane
Rick Majerus
Tom Crean (remember this period ended in 2002)
agree?

Best Dark Ages Seasons
1994 (sweet 16)
2002 (top 10 ranking)
1982 (first round win in NCAA)
1997 (2nd CUSA, NCAA)
What else?

Notable Events of the Dark Ages
Joe Wolf chooses UNC (bad)
Hiring Bob Duket (bad)
Signing Kerry Trotter (McD AA, next was Henry Ellenson)
What Else?

[The Lens]

I hate to feed the troll but Kevin O'Neill didn't resurrect MU hoops just for you to label his tenure a "Dark Age".

IMO the Dark Ages ended in 1992

1993 NCAA
1994 NCAA Sweet 16 + Conf Championship
1995 NIT Runner Up (the definition of a great rebuilding season)
1996 NCAA Round of 32 (left a few wins out there)
1997 NCAA + Conf Championship
1998 Wardle hits The Shot vs Louisville
1999-2001 Drought

[BrewCity83]

I wouldn't consider the Hank Raymonds Era part of the Dark Ages.

1977–78   Marquette   24–4         NCAA Division I First Round
1978–79   Marquette   22–7         NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1979–80   Marquette   18–9         NCAA Division I First Round
1980–81   Marquette   20–11      NIT First Round
1981–82   Marquette   23–9         NCAA Division I Second Round
1982–83   Marquette   19–10      NCAA Division I First Round
TOTALS     Marquette   126–50   

It's not Al McGuire good, but Hank had a pretty good run.
   

[Galway Eagle]

Which millenials have you spoken with that gave you the impression that we think MUBB began in 2003? Millenials have this thing called a computer and enjoy surfing the web.

also almost a third of our NCAA appearances came during those "dark ages" so how dark could they really have been? Seems like the true dark ages, where we were completely off the map, were 84 to 92

Your dark ages period is 10 NCAA appearances and 9 NIT, that's still an amount of postseason appearances that a lot of programs would kill for.

[The Lens]

I wouldn't consider the Hank Raymonds Era part of the Dark Ages.

1977–78   Marquette   24–4         NCAA Division I First Round
1978–79   Marquette   22–7         NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1979–80   Marquette   18–9         NCAA Division I First Round
1980–81   Marquette   20–11      NIT First Round
1981–82   Marquette   23–9         NCAA Division I Second Round
1982–83   Marquette   19–10      NCAA Division I First Round
TOTALS     Marquette   126–50   

It's not Al McGuire good, but Hank had a pretty good run.

Absolutely.  Let's be honest, the real Dark Age was the Piano Man.  Rick was oh so close to breaking through.  #1 UNC at the MECCA being a prime example.

[Not A Serious Person]

Which millenials have you spoken with that gave you the impression that we think MUBB began in 2003? Millenials have this thing called a computer and enjoy surfing the web.

also almost a third of our NCAA appearances came during those "dark ages" so how dark could they really have been? Seems like the true dark ages, where we were completely off the map, were 84 to 92

Your dark ages period is 10 NCAA appearances and 9 NIT, that's still an amount of postseason appearances that a lot of programs would kill for.

The discussion here

The 1978 to 2002 period is the least discussed period.

[D'Lo Brown]

Since when did the term 'millennial' become synonymous with ignoramus? One might argue that even using that term in such a way labels yourself as an ignoramus, not the other way around.

[Not A Serious Person]

I hate to feed the troll but Kevin O'Neill didn't resurrect MU hoops just for you to label his tenure a "Dark Age".

IMO the Dark Ages ended in 1992

1993 NCAA
1994 NCAA Sweet 16 + Conf Championship
1995 NIT Runner Up (the definition of a great rebuilding season)
1996 NCAA Round of 32 (left a few wins out there)
1997 NCAA + Conf Championship
1998 Wardle hits The Shot vs Louisville
1999-2001 Drought

I wouldn't consider the Hank Raymonds Era part of the Dark Ages.

1977–78   Marquette   24–4         NCAA Division I First Round
1978–79   Marquette   22–7         NCAA Division I Sweet 16
1979–80   Marquette   18–9         NCAA Division I First Round
1980–81   Marquette   20–11      NIT First Round
1981–82   Marquette   23–9         NCAA Division I Second Round
1982–83   Marquette   19–10      NCAA Division I First Round
TOTALS     Marquette   126–50   

It's not Al McGuire good, but Hank had a pretty good run.
   

Interesting that the same board that wants to excoriate Wojo for last season does not consider these periods dark ages.

Look, I just thought a good off-season discussion was 1978 to 2002.  Why you want to troll (hint the phrase "I hate to feed the troll" is what is said right before you are trolled).

[BCHoopster]

Rick’s demise was one player lost, Joe Wolf, Joe did not like the paper reporting he was coming to MU, also, a second player, Ricky Olson. Rick probably would have stayed. Of Course, the biggest recruit, Scotter McCray for Hank would have keep MU in the Top 10 for awhile.

[Galway Eagle]

The discussion here

The 1978 to 2002 period is the least discussed period.

Which Millenials have given that impression?

the 78 year where nobody shuts up about losing to Miami of Ohio? Discussed ad nauseam.

The Doc shot vs ND? Discussed ad nauseam.

Losing Joe wolf to UNC? Discussed ad nauseam.

The first coming of Wade and him differing on the last play? Discussed ad nauseam.

The young O'Neil team being booed by their own fans? Discussed ad nauseam

The Sweet 16 O'Neil team where we were up at half against Duke? Discussed ad nauseam.

How Deane took a team with two future NBA players coming off a Sweet 16 and only took them to the NIT championship? Discussed ad nauseam.

The terrible Dukiet years? Discussed ad nauseam.

That time period is discussed plenty around here, especially with Tony smith on the radio and Jimmy Mac doing his podcast.

[mu-rara]

Which millenials have you spoken with that gave you the impression that we think MUBB began in 2003? Millenials have this thing called a computer and enjoy surfing the web.

also almost a third of our NCAA appearances came during those "dark ages" so how dark could they really have been? Seems like the true dark ages, where we were completely off the map, were 84 to 92

Your dark ages period is 10 NCAA appearances and 9 NIT, that's still an amount of postseason appearances that a lot of programs would kill for.

I was a high school junior when MU won the NC.  I couldn't remember a year when Marquette wasn't top 10, much of that time top 5.  My time at MU was a steady decline.  My freshman year we ended about 25 in the rankings.  WTF!   We lost to ND 8 times in a row. KO came in and knocked off ND his first try.  We wanted to put his name on a building right then and there.  Just a perspective from an Al era fan.  It's gonna be tough for you youngsters when (if) the changes the Pack made don't work.

[tower912]

I was there 84-88.   I believe that was the nadir.    UNC at home.    David Rivers.   Jim Dolan (?) at the buzzer.    Rod Strickland laughing at Anthony Candelino trying to guard him.     Being genuinely concerned against Fordham.   A missed Copa dunk landing in press row.   Finishing an NIT game in Bloomington with 4 players.    Pat Foley having to play center. 

The crap of it was is there was a number of good players in that era.   Kerry Trotter.   David Boone.   Tony Smith.   Tom Copa was a decent center who got some time in the NBA.    Never the right mix and not enough of them.   

[GooooMarquette]

Interesting that the same board that wants to excoriate Wojo for last season does not consider these periods dark ages.

I am a Wojo supporter, so I agree with your comment about people ripping him. Still, KO and Deane's record from '94-'97 included 2 conference championships and 3 NCAA wins, and Hank's first 5 seasons included 5 NCAA bids to Wojo's 2, and 3 NCAA wins to Wojo's 0. Both periods included a Sweet 16.

I think many of the impatient posters would be a lot more patient with either stretch....

[Galway Eagle]

I was a high school junior when MU won the NC.  I couldn't remember a year when Marquette wasn't top 10, much of that time top 5.  My time at MU was a steady decline.  My freshman year we ended about 25 in the rankings.  WTF!   We lost to ND 8 times in a row. KO came in and knocked off ND his first try.  We wanted to put his name on a building right then and there.  Just a perspective from an Al era fan.  It's gonna be tough for you youngsters when (if) the changes the Pack made don't work.

I'm not saying it wasn't disappointing or a clear step down from where we had been but to call it the dark ages seems to be quite the stretch.

What do you mean the changes the Pack made?

[Billy Hoyle]

I was there in the mid 90's, definitely not "dark ages."  Many programs would kill for post season 9 out of 11 years. The NIT run in 1995 was a lot of fun on campus too (F you, Shawn Smith and Ace Custis.  Faisel didn't foul Smith).

Some post KO highlights:

Beating #9 Memphis on CBS, with Amal dominating lottery pick Lorenzen Wright. - 1996
Being only the second team to win 4 games in 4 days in a conference tourney and winning it was history - 1997
The 1995-96 team making the CUSA finals and finishing the season beating 3 ranked teams in 4 games (and only losing by 1 to #8 Cincy in the finals) - 1996
Starting out 10-0 in 1997-98 and making the NIT quarterfinals. We probably make the dance if Hutch is healthy and not feuding with Deane - 1998
Even in the only losing season between 1990-91 and 2014-15 (1 game under .500), we beat #4 Cincy - 1999

The only thing that could qualify as "dark" was our record against Bucky.

[brewcity77]

I'm pretty sure it's Wisconsin fans that don't realize the game existed pre-1990s.

[mu_hilltopper]

1998 Wardle hits The Shot vs Louisville

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/VXpej6ZLGhs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/VXpej6ZLGhs</a>

[GooooMarquette]

One of my favorite plays during the '78-'02 period was Michael Wilson shattering the backboard in the old Mid-South Coliseum in Memphis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcuEIuTagg0

For the young fans who might not understand why he was pointing at the fans, Michael was from Memphis so it was a huge coup to get him up to MU. As a result, he took a lot of crap from the Memphis fans when we played there.

And man, that guy could play some defense....

[mug644]

I was there 84-88.   I believe that was the nadir.    UNC at home.    David Rivers.   Jim Dolan (?) at the buzzer.    Rod Strickland laughing at Anthony Candelino trying to guard him.     Being genuinely concerned against Fordham.   A missed Copa dunk landing in press row.   Finishing an NIT game in Bloomington with 4 players.    Pat Foley having to play center. 

The crap of it was is there was a number of good players in that era.   Kerry Trotter.   David Boone.   Tony Smith.   Tom Copa was a decent center who got some time in the NBA.    Never the right mix and not enough of them.

At the beginning of this thread, when folks were whittling the Dark Ages down by eliminating 1978-1983 and 1992-2002, I knew it would turn out that the Very Dark Ages included my years at MU, which coincided with Tower’s (and we were floormates freshman year in McCormick).

Those years sucked. Really sucked. And made me a better fan, and appreciative of progress, and The Process.

[Goose]

Great topic, IMO there different degrees of dark, and Dukiet really is the darkest of the dark. Looking forward to seeing others POV of the dark years.

[Galway Eagle]

Great topic, IMO there different degrees of dark, and Dukiet really is the darkest of the dark. Looking forward to seeing others POV of the dark years.

This is probably the best way to look at it. Hank would've been dark ages relative to Al but all time he brought us some respectable years that's many programs would take. Deane pushed  us into another mini dark age but certainly had a few decent to good teams. Not sure how anyone can say 93-97 was dark but FairPlay to those who want to because it was brief and we underachieved in 95 (second hand report)

[Norm]

I was there 84-88.   I believe that was the nadir.    UNC at home.    David Rivers.   Jim Dolan (?) at the buzzer.    Rod Strickland laughing at Anthony Candelino trying to guard him.     Being genuinely concerned against Fordham.   A missed Copa dunk landing in press row.   Finishing an NIT game in Bloomington with 4 players.    Pat Foley having to play center. 

The crap of it was is there was a number of good players in that era.   Kerry Trotter.   David Boone.   Tony Smith.   Tom Copa was a decent center who got some time in the NBA.    Never the right mix and not enough of them.

I’d say the nadir was 88-91. The class of 1991 has the lowest winning percentage at MU since before WWII.

[The Lens]

I’d say the nadir was 88-91. The class of 1991 has the lowest winning percentage at MU since before WWII.

But you had a full roster of bars.   I started in 1993 and we had already lost Green Tree, O'D's, Guilano's, Ardmore and the Midget Tap (or Tavern).  I have no doubt going to MU from 88-91 was a great time.  If anything is the Dark Ages its everything post Campus Town.

[Not A Serious Person]

I’d say the nadir was 88-91. The class of 1991 has the lowest winning percentage at MU since before WWII.

91 was the year Dahmer was arrested.  Coincidence?

[StillAWarrior]

I’d say the nadir was 88-91. The class of 1991 has the lowest winning percentage at MU since before WWII.

Of course we do. Ugh.

[#UnleashSean]

Get banned again

[Billy Hoyle]

But you had a full roster of bars.   I started in 1993 and we had already lost Green Tree, O'D's, Guilano's, Ardmore and the Midget Tap (or Tavern).  I have no doubt going to MU from 88-91 was a great time. If anything is the Dark Ages its everything post Campus Town.

we at least had the Lanche. 

I haven't been back in years. What bars remain? I know the Lanche, Angelo's and Heg's are gone. Conway's still around?

[Avenue Commons]

I hate to feed the troll but Kevin O'Neill didn't resurrect MU hoops just for you to label his tenure a "Dark Age".

IMO the Dark Ages ended in 1992

1993 NCAA
1994 NCAA Sweet 16 + Conf Championship
1995 NIT Runner Up (the definition of a great rebuilding season)
1996 NCAA Round of 32 (left a few wins out there)
1997 NCAA + Conf Championship
1998 Wardle hits The Shot vs Louisville
1999-2001 Drought

Thanks for writing the post for me. There were some good years in there.

Chris Crawford, Jim McIlvaine, Amal McCaskill all made NBA during that time, too.

[The Lens]

we at least had the Lanche. 

I haven't been back in years. What bars remain? I know the Lanche, Angelo's and Heg's are gone. Conway's still around?

Yep, Conway's plus the Harp & Shamrock are both still surviving, thankfully.

[Herman Cain]

Old Timers act like the Al McGuire era was just a few weeks ago.

Millennials think MU basketball began with Wade's triple-double against Kentucky in 2003.

So here post your thoughts/comments about MU's "dark ages," the period between the National Championship (1977) and the Final Four year of 2003.

The get the ball rolling ...

Best Dark Ages Players
Jim Mac
Doc Rivers
Tony Smith
Brian Wardle
Kerry Trotter
Oliver Lee
Cordell Henry
Amal McCaskill
Damon Key
Dwayne Wade (2002 version only)
Who else?  Agree with the order?

Best Dark Ages Games
Jan 5, 1981 beating #5 ND (which I believe was the highest rated victory of the Dark Ages)
March 1994, the second round defeat of Kentucky to earn a sweet 16 berth
March 1995, NIT Semifinal win over Penn State
What else?

Best Dark Ages Coaches
Kevin O'Neill
Mike Deane
Rick Majerus
Tom Crean (remember this period ended in 2002)
agree?

Best Dark Ages Seasons
1994 (sweet 16)
2002 (top 10 ranking)
1982 (first round win in NCAA)
1997 (2nd CUSA, NCAA)
What else?

Notable Events of the Dark Ages
Joe Wolf chooses UNC (bad)
Hiring Bob Duket (bad)
Signing Kerry Trotter (McD AA, next was Henry Ellenson)
What Else?

Any list of all time Dark Ages players would need to include Sam Worthen , who was an All American and Micheal Wilson who was probably the most underrated great player in MU history.  It should also include Dwayne Wilson who in the pre Micky D days was a Street and Smith All american and one heck of a player for MU. He was academically ineligible his senior year which I think was the difference between MU going to the NIT and having a deep NCAA run and probably saving Majerus job and never having the dark ages.

Start of the dark ages was the Miami of Ohio game. Will never forget how I sat stunned in the stands at Market Square arena.

[Warrior Code]

Yep, Conway's plus the Harp & Shamrock are both still surviving, thankfully.

Conway's was fine but the Hamrock was the best. That building should be condemned but I hope it never is.

[Billy Hoyle]

Conway's was fine but the Hamrock was the best. That building should be condemned but I hope it never is.

As an 19 years old RA, Conway’s was a great place to go to avoid getting caught violating policy.

[Miss Katie’s]

But you had a full roster of bars.   I started in 1993 and we had already lost Green Tree, O'D's, Guilano's, Ardmore and the Midget Tap (or Tavern).  I have no doubt going to MU from 88-91 was a great time.  If anything is the Dark Ages its everything post Campus Town.

Don’t forget the State House, the Glocc, Thoma’s, and Amigos!

I was there 88-92, and the basketball was undoubtedly some of the worst MU has seen — but this was most certainly an upside during those Dark Ages. 

[BallBoy]

I hate to feed the troll but Kevin O'Neill didn't resurrect MU hoops just for you to label his tenure a "Dark Age".

IMO the Dark Ages ended in 1992

1993 NCAA
1994 NCAA Sweet 16 + Conf Championship
1995 NIT Runner Up (the definition of a great rebuilding season)
1996 NCAA Round of 32 (left a few wins out there)
1997 NCAA + Conf Championship
1998 Wardle hits The Shot vs Louisville
1999-2001 Drought

I was there from 96-00.  While I agree the darkest years were prior to 92, it wasn't bright outside until 2002.  Light was creeping over the horizon.  The Mike Deane years were cloudy so no one saw the light.  In the 96-97 year, MU was not a very good team and Conf USA was not a very good league.  MU finished 5th in that watered down Conf USA.  MU only made the Tournament due to a win in the Conf USA Tournament and they got spanked by Providence.  Their overall record was 22-9 with a 9-5 conference record. 

98 - when the highlight is one shot then you know how the season went.  14-15 - No NCAA

99 - 15-14 - No NCAA

00 - 15-14 - NCAA

Directionally the writing was on the wall that Deane was moving the program in the wrong direction.  Though O'Neill cracked the door open again, Crean really kicked it open in 2002 and Conf USA also took off to become a very good league with MU, Louisville, Cinci becoming good elite teams.

[oldwarrior81]

Any list of all time Dark Ages players would need to include Sam Worthen , who was an All American and Micheal Wilson who was probably the most underrated great player in MU history.  It should also include Dwayne Wilson who in the pre Micky D days was a Street and Smith All american and one heck of a player for MU. He was academically ineligible his senior year which I think was the difference between MU going to the NIT and having a deep NCAA run and probably saving Majerus job and never having the dark ages.

Start of the dark ages was the Miami of Ohio game. Will never forget how I sat stunned in the stands at Market Square arena.

I'm assuming Dwayne Johnson.

Problems not only with grades, but actually attending classes. 
He needed to pick up credits over the Summer, and Ric Cobb took him under his wing.  Gave Dwayne a list of requirements he must follow to eligible to play that Fall.  Attend classes was #1.   Within the week he was at the Grand Avenue hanging with the ladies when he had a scheduled class.   Once Cobb found out, his fate was sealed.

[MU82]

Yep, Conway's plus the Harp & Shamrock are both still surviving, thankfully.

Harp & Shamrock was our hangout junior and senior year. We would put a $5 bill on the bar at the start of the night, and it would still be there at the end. The bartender, Dan Fischer, loved us and never let us pay for a drink! He thought my best friend looked like the Yankee owner and when we'd walk in, he'd yell, "Steinbrenner!"

As for the dark ages ...

My years at MU weren't the best, but they were far from the worst. For one thing, my last 3 years we were 3-0 against Notre Dame, including the game won with one of the greatest shots in Marquette history.

[muhoops1]

Terry Reason had the best hair PERIOD end of story.  Dude could shoot.  Kerry Trotter, stud. Lloyd Moore could bang once he made it up the floor.  Duane Johnson my man. Corey Floyd the best that never was.  Gerald Posey was a Trenton dude that could ball.

[warriorchick]

Terry Reason had the best hair PERIOD end of story.

You mean Helmet Head?  No.

I remember Terry being a bust.  Never lived up to the hype he was given coming in.

[Not A Serious Person]

You mean Helmet Head?  No.

I remember Terry being a bust.  Never lived up to the hype he was given coming in.

+1

Terry came in with the hype that he was a Markus type shooter (in a 6' 5'" body).  Did not quite play out that way.  Worse was that was the era before the three-point line so long-range shooting was not considered that important to begin with.

[Dr. Blackheart]

[muhoops1]

Let Your Soul Glow.  Not a fan of the #Fromullet?  Its beauty was its absurdity.

[MU82]

Loved Reason's hair. We used to call him "The Pharaoh"!

[real chili 83]

Had Reason in a speech class. Interesting......

[tower912]

86-87, 87-88 under Dukiet, there just didn't seem to be any hope.  We knew MU was not going to beat a good team. 

[oldwarrior81]

Reason had a few odd moments.

The team would ride in a bus/van from the Clybourn Gym to the Arena for games.
Reason was late and missed the bus.   He dressed and ran from the Old Gym to the Arena in his uniform and warmups.

[MUEng92]

Wasn't he in Coming to America?

[jsglow]

86-87, 87-88 under Dukiet, there just didn't seem to be any hope.  We knew MU was not going to beat a good team.

Hell, they didn't beat very many bad teams!

[BrewCity83]

I loved having Reason on the team.  Yeah, he never lived up to the hype of being something like the 3rd highest scorer in California high school history, but he was a decent player and played the game with flair.

[DoctorV]

At first glance I thought we were talking about 4/15/19-??

[Mike Deane's Seat Belt]

the next Dark age is going to start in the fall thanks to wojo