I get that. Deane was a tremendous game coach in an era of a longer shot clock who did not recruit at a high level. Would succeed even less today. But he could manage a game.Deane was a very good game coach. I was at the game versus Sant Clara and Deane had McCaskill guard Steve Nash. Brilliant move, Nash got only about 10pts and MU won.
Tower, it’s always hard for me to rank coaches since I would rank them on just coaching ability rather than recruiting, management, etc.
For total picture, I think your rating is pretty spot on. For just coaching, my ranking would be much different.
Add to my post I am highly skeptical that any of TKO, Oso, and O-Max will achieve anywhere near the level of NBA success of Butler. Wes, Novak, and of course Dwyane.But they will play in the league. I hope they all can have the longevity of Novak. His actual career wasn't all that. But he was there for a while and had a couple of nice stretches.
As someone whose time as a MU student coincided with the Dukiet debacle, I’d rank him even lower if I could.If only.
Buzzyour order is my order, and agreed on why.
Crean
Shaka
KO
Deane
Wojo
Majerus
Dukiet
Buzz and Crean with a slight edge over Shaka with Crean’s FF and Buzz’s 3 straight NCAA 2nd weekends, including an E8. Plus their sustained level of success and graduating guys to the NBA. Shaka could get there, but he isn’t there yet all around. May not be entirely fair after just 3 seasons, but the question is how do they rank today. Shaka’s conference regular season and tournament championships in same season get him close to them.
KO’s tenure is underrated I think. He’s close to the top 3. But I think that speaks more to what top 3 accomplished. But KO resuscitated this program and left the cupboard well stocked for Deane.
Deane over Wojo because he at least had a clue coaching and getting a team to playing its best ball at end of season multiple years (95-97). Wojo is only fairly close to him because he did bring in better talent.
Rick is one of my all time favorites, but MU years were so ordinary in every way his 3 years.
Dukiet- obvious.
Re-using or paraphrasing some earlier comments, but in my order:Wojo could recruit. Gets pts from me for beating #1 ‘Nova and rep’ing MU at a high level off court…but yeah, coaching wasn’t there.
Shaka—incomplete but all the right things happening. Already on top in my book
Crean—he put MU back on the map as a program with FF, entry into BE, getting the Al built. Probably knows now that I4 was a mistake. Had he stayed could have had it for a good, long time. He now knows his ambitions were greater than his skills.
Buzz—Big BE title, very good three season NCAA run. Was never sustainable. Too much dysfunction.
KO—Was never going to stay, but fit MU perfectly at the time and had he not had such lofty ambitions could have been "the guy".
Majerus—wrong place, wrong time, big shadow, shoes too big to fill. Somebody had to follow Al, noone was ever going to be Al.
Dukiet / Wojo / Deane - the dark days of MU basketball. Dukiet was not serious and not very good, Wojo was just bad at everything, and Deane would have been a great assistant but never a head coach.
your order is my order, and agreed on why.
(btw and imo, if MU had paid KO, he’d have taken MU to a F4…although he seemed to have a nomadic soul. Majerus? Shirtless on Schroeder beach…yikes. Wojo is a great guy..too bad it didn’t work out)
Shaka has no shot at 1. Can’t beat RED!haha…RED is trying to help Shaka’s cause in getting that elusive W next December. But…Gard knows ball.
Crean - Final 4 team was result of some inspired recruiting and his "culture" was great set up for Buzz - his amigos were tough as nails, with no big man depth his teams had to be - other than the bad optics of the whole its IU its IU thing his handoff to Buzz allowed for a practically seamless transition, left the program in great shape for Buzz - if it weren't for some poorly timed injuries he could have had a 2nd final 4 team.…some solid commentary.
Buzz - Created a culture of realism/extreme toughness that produced diamonds ultimately from coal - very much like Al in some ways. Place him slightly behind Crean because he left the program a near wreck. Underrated game Coach - best pure game coach since AL imo..
Shaka - Will be no. 1 soon. Incredible fit for Marquette, we are so fortunate. The way he is building a program in the NIL era is so well thought out for the long term IMO. He is the best overall program builder and coach in the country as of this moment I think and he will have more post season success as time goes on. Could and will I predict replace Al as the greatest all time coach at Marquette.
KO - A good Marquette coach, got a lot out of players, teams generally better than sum of their parts. Didn't have the imagination to see what Marquette could become, left too early but at least he left MU in a place where they were well positioned to build off what he built. If Hank were in this - I would put him here above KO.
Deane - superior game coach, quirky personality - wasn't much of a recruiter tho and if you can't recruit there is no path to elevating the program. Good job by admin to see that and move on despite his ability to win 20 games a year consistently.
Wojo - underrated recruiter by MU fans - and by that I mean he was almost a unicorn to recruit the way he did while he was at Marquette. Got multiple McD AAs - I truly thought that would never happen again. His other recruits were generally terrific young basketball players with high ceilings. His program was not one to tap that potential which really underlines his weakness as a head coach. He brought Marquette to the point where it could aspire to be top 5 but then you had defections and other payers not reaching their ceilings etc. That being said he won some great contests and had some really fun teams to watch.
Majerus - had recruiting misses and just couldn't get his teams over the hump to even true bubble territory. Wrong time.
Dukiet - I became a fan in Dukiets first year. He was probably in an impossible situation in some ways - I would have been interested in seeing what he could have accomplished with Corey Floyd and some of the other players MU wouldn't admit in his last recruiting class - but the move to KO was the spark that allowed MU to move beyond the old Independent paradigm which wasn't a set up for success and doomed Majerus and Dukiet I think.
1. KO - I don't think he gets enough credit for saving us from the brink of mid-majordom.You mention Hank…I got to meet him as a HS player (recruiting a teammate that ended-up w/Steve Yoder and UW-Madison). Hank was genuinely a very nice man and 100% ‘Mr Marquette’…he loved MU. But, and as you state, MU started a downward trajectory under his leadership. I think being athletic director AND coach wasn’t the right fit. The slide from prominence was quick after the ‘77 title.
2. Buzz - tournament success best since Al.
3. Crean - Final Four worth a lot, if he could've gotten a good big to play with the Amigos he'd be number 1
4. Shaka - If he keeps it up, he'll be number 1 in a few years. I love everything about him so far
5. Deane - Great coach, but didn't bring in talent
6. Hank - Precipitous drop under his watch in a very short amount of time
7. Wojo - Very good recruiter, we didn't win anything of importance with him (one regular season game)
8. Dukiet - His ineptitude is why I have KO at number 1
I had a tough time 1-3 and I really think Shaka is going to be my number 1 when he is through
Hank was a much better coach than Deane and Wojo. As I recall, Hank made the NCAAs every year and the field was only 32 teams. The 1977-78 was a top 5 team that got screwed by Pete Pavia. That team also did not benefit from seeding in the tournament. Hank was dealing with a changing landscape: the addition of at-large conference teams to the NCAA; the formation of the Big East; and the general fall of independents. I am sure Hank’s budget was nowhere near what Wojo enjoyed, even adjusted for inflation. Hank wasn’t a salesman and he had far bigger shoes to fill than any other MU coach. Wojo had two seasons with a winning conference record over seven years. Deane had no ambition.
Crean - Final 4 team was result of some inspired recruiting and his "culture" was great set up for Buzz - his amigos were tough as nails, with no big man depth his teams had to be - other than the bad optics of the whole its IU its IU thing his handoff to Buzz allowed for a practically seamless transition, left the program in great shape for Buzz - if it weren't for some poorly timed injuries he could have had a 2nd final 4 team.
Buzz - Created a culture of realism/extreme toughness that produced diamonds ultimately from coal - very much like Al in some ways. Place him slightly behind Crean because he left the program a near wreck. Underrated game Coach - best pure game coach since AL imo..
Shaka - Will be no. 1 soon. Incredible fit for Marquette, we are so fortunate. The way he is building a program in the NIL era is so well thought out for the long term IMO. He is the best overall program builder and coach in the country as of this moment I think and he will have more post season success as time goes on. Could and will I predict replace Al as the greatest all time coach at Marquette.
KO - A good Marquette coach, got a lot out of players, teams generally better than sum of their parts. Didn't have the imagination to see what Marquette could become, left too early but at least he left MU in a place where they were well positioned to build off what he built. If Hank were in this - I would put him here above KO.
Deane - superior game coach, quirky personality - wasn't much of a recruiter tho and if you can't recruit there is no path to elevating the program. Good job by admin to see that and move on despite his ability to win 20 games a year consistently.
Wojo - underrated recruiter by MU fans - and by that I mean he was almost a unicorn to recruit the way he did while he was at Marquette. Got multiple McD AAs - I truly thought that would never happen again. His other recruits were generally terrific young basketball players with high ceilings. His program was not one to tap that potential which really underlines his weakness as a head coach. He brought Marquette to the point where it could aspire to be top 5 but then you had defections and other payers not reaching their ceilings etc. That being said he won some great contests and had some really fun teams to watch.
Majerus - had recruiting misses and just couldn't get his teams over the hump to even true bubble territory. Wrong time.
Dukiet - I became a fan in Dukiets first year. He was probably in an impossible situation in some ways - I would have been interested in seeing what he could have accomplished with Corey Floyd and some of the other players MU wouldn't admit in his last recruiting class - but the move to KO was the spark that allowed MU to move beyond the old Independent paradigm which wasn't a set up for success and doomed Majerus and Dukiet I think.
1) Shaka
2) Buzz
3) KO
4) Crean
5) Raymonds
6) Deane
7) Wojo
8) Dukeit
Program never had earned a 2 seed prior to Shaka's arrival, and Shaka did it back to back. Yes, you'd hope for deeper runs with a 2 seed but he did win a Big East conference title outright, and a Big East Tournament Championship, when no previous coach got beyond the semi-finals.
A little difficult to rank Crean 4th, yet Buzz was a better coach, and the cupboard after Year 1 was EMPTY. To go S16, S16 and Elite 8 trumps 1 Final Four with a generational talent.
KO inherited an absolute trainwreck of a program, far worse than what Crean inherited from Deane, which is why KO ranks higher IMO.
I know you have some looney takes, but you can't possibly think that the program was in a worse place when Crean left than it was when he arrived, can you? You're just trolling at this point, right?
Agreed, that's a ridiculous take, especially because of the situation around it. After Year 1 (so year two) Crean left three starters in Hayward, Cubillan, and Acker. In addition, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule were already committed to Marquette under Crean. So were Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, both of whom went on to have productive high-major careers.
Yes, Crean was able to bring Williams along with while Buzz couldn't keep Taylor, but there was at least some foundation there, and Buzz offset those losses with Buycks and DJO. Had Crean not left, the cupboard wasn't remotely bare, and Buzz had a solid foundation for year two as indicated by 3 starters leftover from Crean and a 6-seed that year.
Agreed, that's a ridiculous take, especially because of the situation around it. After Year 1 (so year two) Crean left three starters in Hayward, Cubillan, and Acker. In addition, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule were already committed to Marquette under Crean. So were Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, both of whom went on to have productive high-major careers.
Yes, Crean was able to bring Williams along with while Buzz couldn't keep Taylor, but there was at least some foundation there, and Buzz offset those losses with Buycks and DJO. Had Crean not left, the cupboard wasn't remotely bare, and Buzz had a solid foundation for year two as indicated by 3 starters leftover from Crean and a 6-seed that year.
Crean left a potential Final Four team for Buzz along with future starters. No first-year coach at Marquette other than Hank inherited the talent level Buzz got.
Boy. Saying Buzz inherited “starters” David Cubillan and Mo Acker in year 2 from Tom Crean is really a stretch. In their first year with Buzz they averaged 2.8 and 1.6 points per game, 1.4 and .5 rebounds per game and 1.8 and .2 assists per game. Yes, they started for Buzz in his second year, but the guys Buzz got from Crean were end of the bench guys, not starters.
Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.Your post is insane and Lenny is right
Your post is insane and Lenny is right
Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.
I know you have some looney takes, but you can't possibly think that the program was in a worse place when Crean left than it was when he arrived, can you? You're just trolling at this point, right?
Tell you what...before we go further, I'm going to give you a chance to just retract and concede that this is a terrible point and your attempt to dispute my post is wholly without any merit.
Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived? Here's the answer: Nowhere. I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty. If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.
Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.
Lenny said it best. And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.
S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.
Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all. Very grateful for what he did at MU. There's no bias against Crean. I just think Buzz was a better coach. You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.
Love that we're arguing a coaching change that happened 16 years ago.
But I will say the coaching job Buzz did in 09-10 was among the best I've seen. It helps having experience but he adjusted to his personnel beautifully.
Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived? Here's the answer: Nowhere. I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty. If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.
Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.
Lenny said it best. And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.
S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.
Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all. Very grateful for what he did at MU. There's no bias against Crean. I just think Buzz was a better coach. You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.
Thanks for the offer, Brew - but I’ll decline. I’ll expand on my point tonight - too busy today.
Who gets credit is not what the argument is.
Where did I say the program was in worse shape when Crean left than when he arrived? Here's the answer: Nowhere. I said the cuboard in Year 2 was empty. If you think a roster in Year 2 for Buzz that left behind Lazar, Mo Acker, and David Cubillian was a full cupboard, well, per usual we see things differently.
Most Big East teams weren't forced into starting two guards who clocked in under 5'10" and one of whom didn't weigh more than 165 lbs.
Lenny said it best. And what's funny is the posters here up in arms over this point insisted Wojo inherited an empty cupboard with 8 Top 100 recruits - none of whom were massively undersized at their positions.
S16, S16, Elite 8, trumps Crean's 1 Final Four, and of course Crean got knocked out in D-Wades sophomore year by a 14 seed in Round 1.
Lastly, I'm not a Crean hater at all. Very grateful for what he did at MU. There's no bias against Crean. I just think Buzz was a better coach. You can look at how each has perforrmed since leaving MU - Crean had 1 run while at IU but ended up getting fired, and then performed even worse at Georgia, getting fired again.
The simple question is one of facts.
Did Tom Crean recruit David Cubillan? Yes. Did David Cubillan start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.
Did Tom Crean recruit Maurice Acker? Yes. Did Maurice Acker appear in all 34 games, starting 21, and rank top-5 in total minutes played for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.
Did Tom Crean recruit Lazar Hayward? Yes. Did Lazar Hayward start all 34 games for Marquette in 2009-10? Yes.
Tom Crean also recruited Joe Fulce, who was committed before Crean left. He started the other 13 games that Acker didn't start.
So by any measure, trying to dispute that Crean left three players that started on the 2009-10 team, which was not Buzz's "Year 1", is simply at odds with reality. Contending such is wrong. This isn't a debate, a discussion, or any form of discourse. They were not starters on Buzz's first team, but in his second year, they were. And Crean left them behind.
Buzz inherited an absolutely loaded team, arguably the most top-to-bottom loaded with talent team since the 1970s. He had four of the top ten scorers in program history, 175/175 starts in 2009 and 103/170 starts in 2010 were inherited players, all good enough to start for top-6 NCAA seeds. We know that because that's what they did.
It's similar to pieces Wojo left for Shaka. Justin Lewis, Greg Elliott, Oso Ighodaro, Stevie Mitchell, and Kam Jones are all guys Wojo gets credit for bringing to Marquette and for leaving "in the cupboard".
This isn't an opinion discussion. It's a fact based one. Hindsight is 20/20, and in this case, there's simply no disputing what we actually know happened.(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/237/664/f8b.gif)
5 seeds don’t play 14 seeds round one.
Also, was MU not allowed to recruit during Buzz’s first year? Why was he “forced” to start two small guards his second year?
#fakenews
Good catch. I thought we were a 3 that year. Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.
Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz? Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!
I think Buzz is a better basketball coach, but Crean improved the program more than Buzz did and was a more important coach to the program.
Good catch. I thought we were a 3 that year. Nonetheless, stellar coaching job leading a team with DWade to a first round loss against Tulsa.
Do you feel Crean was a better coach than Buzz? Seems you haven't weighed in on the topic, so lets get your rankings!
The more important question is:
Who effing cares?
Similarly, I think most were stunned when Buzz took the team with Cubillan and Acker at guard to the NCAAs. I don’t see Crean getting into the tournament with that roster.
No. This was never about “credit.” It was Elon’s statement that it was left “EMPTY” in year two. It was not.
What Buzz did with that team was great. But he simply wasn’t left with an empty cupboard for his second year.
Which honestly is a strange metric anyway. I’ve clearly heard “he was left with an empty cupboard” before. But I don’t think I’ve heard “he was left with an empty cupboard for year two” before this topic.
But year two, the new coach can get his guys in the door. Just like Buzz and Shaka did.
No. This was never about “credit.” It was Elon’s statement that it was left “EMPTY” in year two. It was not.
What Buzz did with that team was great. But he simply wasn’t left with an empty cupboard for his second year.
Which honestly is a strange metric anyway. I’ve clearly heard “he was left with an empty cupboard” before. But I don’t think I’ve heard “he was left with an empty cupboard for year two” before this topic.
But year two, the new coach can get his guys in the door. Just like Buzz and Shaka did.
This is, of course, the point. Giving a coach “credit” for leaving behind 2 guys who
2 years later would form, on paper, the worst starting backcourt in Marquette history is absurd.
Mo Acker was a mid major recruit who got the opportunity to be a back up at MU because he was Jerel’s high school teammate at Hillcrest. His third year here (as a junior who had sat out a transfer year) he averaged 2.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg and 1.8 apg. IIRC, he was dismissed from the team after the season - and nobody cared. When it became clear by the end of summer that we had nobody to man the point Buzz invited him back.
Cubillan had been at MU for 3 years also. He had started one (1) game and as a junior averaged 1.6 ppg, .5 rpg and .7 apg.
I’m still amazed with what Buzz did with that team. So was all of college basketball. I’ve never heard TC get credit for that backcourt before. Only blame. As it should be.
We’ll agree to disagree. Brew doesn’t just (wrongly) think Crean deserved credit, he thinks the fact that they (as last resorts) started proves he deserves credit. To me that’s pretzel logic.
Also, the landscape is much different today than it was 15 years ago. A lot more progress can be made before the start of year 2 today than was possible then.
Crean recruited them. That's the point and that's not in debate. Your argument is nonsensical and wholly without merit. It's embarrassing even for a Scoop Take.
I think Buzz is a better basketball coach, but Crean improved the program more than Buzz did and was a more important coach to the program.
Crean recruited them. That's the point and that's not in debate. Your argument is nonsensical and wholly without merit. It's embarrassing even for a Scoop Take.
Listen, Lenny can’t let anything complimentary of Tom Crean go without a fight, no matter how wrong he is
Justin, Stevie, Kam, and Oso weren’t bad pieces to inherit.
I agree with this analysis. Which is why I disagree with foolish takes like this:
This is, of course, the point. Giving a coach “credit” for leaving behind 2 guys who
2 years later would form, on paper, the worst starting backcourt in Marquette history is absurd.
Mo Acker was a mid major recruit who got the opportunity to be a back up at MU because he was Jerel’s high school teammate at Hillcrest. His third year here (as a junior who had sat out a transfer year) he averaged 2.8 ppg, 1.4 rpg and 1.8 apg. IIRC, he was dismissed from the team after the season - and nobody cared. When it became clear by the end of summer that we had nobody to man the point Buzz invited him back.
Cubillan had been at MU for 3 years also. He had started one (1) game and as a junior averaged 1.6 ppg, .5 rpg and .7 apg.
I’m still amazed with what Buzz did with that team. So was all of college basketball. I’ve never heard TC get credit for that backcourt before. Only blame. As it should be.
Crean recruited them. That's the point and that's not in debate. Your argument is nonsensical and wholly without merit. It's embarrassing even for a Scoop Take.
Actually Crean didn’t recruit Acker, he asked in to play with his buddy after Buckley was canned. But whether Crean recruited two substandard guards to MU and passed them on to Buzz was NOT the point. The point was they were substandard, and leaving the next coach substandard players does NOT amount to leaving a full cupboard.
Your childish reaction only makes your argument look dumber. Firefighters everywhere are embarrassed on your behalf.
Actually Crean didn’t recruit Acker, he asked in to play with his buddy after Buckley was canned. But whether Crean recruited two substandard guards to MU and passed them on to Buzz was NOT the point. The point was they were substandard, and leaving the next coach substandard players does NOT amount to leaving a full cupboard.
Your childish reaction only makes your argument look dumber. Firefighters everywhere are embarrassed on your behalf.
And again, no one said that the cupboard was full in year two, but let's not act like it was "EMPTY." It wasn't.
So if Buzz is as good a coach as you keep claiming, I'll ask again why did he keep these substandard players around for a THIRD season after coaching them the previous two?
First of all, Buzz didn’t recruit them and only coached them (decided playing time, for example) for TWO years. In year ONE (their junior years) he kept them as back ups and their minutes were way down from what they had been the previous year when TC was their coach. After the season he kicked Acker off the team, only to invite him back late that summer when Buzz accepted the fact that the backcourt was woefully inadequate. What followed (a 6 seed in spite of two backcourt starters with substantial liabilities and limited assists) was Buzz’s best coaching job ever, absolutely NCOY worthy.Actually, Acker’s went up fro 13 to 16 minutes per game. Cooby’s minuteswent down because he was still adjusting to off season surgery.
I don’t know that I’ve ever engaged you here before - I skim or avoid a lot of your long winded arguments. But I do read a lot of complaints about you making false statements. You certainly do that here.
Actually Crean didn’t recruit Acker, he asked in to play with his buddy after Buckley was canned. But whether Crean recruited two substandard guards to MU and passed them on to Buzz was NOT the point. The point was they were substandard, and leaving the next coach substandard players does NOT amount to leaving a full cupboard.
Your childish reaction only makes your argument look dumber. Firefighters everywhere are embarrassed on your behalf.
Actually Crean didn’t recruit Acker, he asked in to play with his buddy after Buckley was canned.
Oh, this is just ridiculous. It's not like Acker magically got a scholarship, backdooring the coach and sneaking through admissions, on to the team, and into the rotation without Crean's knowledge.
Again, you aren't debating against takes. These are undisputed facts that you are trying to say didn't happen. I honestly don't know your intent here other than to embarrass yourself.
Actually, Acker’s went up fro 13 to 16 minutes per game. Cooby’s minuteswent down because he was still adjusting to off season surgery.
Oh, this is just ridiculous. It's not like Acker magically got a scholarship, backdooring the coach and sneaking through admissions, on to the team, and into the rotation without Crean's knowledge.
Again, you aren't debating against takes. These are undisputed facts that you are trying to say didn't happen. I honestly don't know your intent here other than to embarrass yourself.
Acker and Cubillan were leftovers from the Crean regime. They started in our backcourt in year 2 of the Buzz regime. I’ve acknowledged these facts all along, never denied them.
But there are also other facts at play here, facts you want to ignore because they contradict your full cupboard narrative. Sorry, but in assessing what was left behind it’s legit to point out that Acker had never been any good at MU. And that he was dismissed from the team. And that he was only a member of the team because the guy coming in to replace him was hurt. It’s also germane to point out that Cubillan was awful his junior year (27fg%, less than 1 point and 1rebound per game.
Your facts and my fact together form an accurate picture. Fair people will look at both and form their opinion. No matter how angry and unreasonable you want to be.
Scoop’s two biggest blowhards (sultan and Heisy) are your wingmen here. Hmmm.
First of all, Buzz didn’t recruit them and only coached them (decided playing time, for example) for TWO years. In year ONE (their junior years) he kept them as back ups and their minutes were way down from what they had been the previous year when TC was their coach. After the season he kicked Acker off the team, only to invite him back late that summer when Buzz accepted the fact that the backcourt was woefully inadequate. What followed (a 6 seed in spite of two backcourt starters with substantial liabilities and limited assists) was Buzz’s best coaching job ever, absolutely NCOY worthy.
But there are also other facts at play here, facts you want to ignore because they contradict your full cupboard narrative. Sorry, but in assessing what was left behind it’s legit to point out that Acker had never been any good at MU. And that he was dismissed from the team. And that he was only a member of the team because the guy coming in to replace him was hurt. It’s also germane to point out that Cubillan was awful his junior year (27fg%, less than 1 point and 1rebound per game.
Your facts and my fact together form an accurate picture. Fair people will look at both and form their opinion. No matter how angry and unreasonable you want to be.
Scoop’s two biggest blowhards (sultan and Heisy) are your wingmen here. Hmmm.
The main reason they didn't play was because we had a loaded back court. James/McNeal/Matthews was one of the best groups in the country. Acker was adequate when he replaced James. Not great, clearly not as good as James, but roughly an average player (which felt like and was a big step down from an all-conference type PG).
But simply, you are either lying or misremembering reality here. Acker was a fine backup as a sophomore. His 109.6 ORtg and 42.6% 3PFG% made him a solid backup guard behind McNeal and James (and more efficient and a better shooter than either). As a junior, his efficiency dipped, but not horrendously (99.7/28.8%) and he did okay managing the ship when James went down. His biggest deficiency was his defense, but he was good enough to get minutes on that team before and after James' injury. And as Sultan pointed out, you are again either lying or misremembering when it comes to the timing of Acker's return.
Cubillan had a down junior year recovering from injury, but was a high efficiency player as a freshman (119.3 ORtg, 2nd on team) and sophomore (112.3, 2nd on team) indicating that when he was healthy, he was a plus contributor. Buzz tried to run him off, like Acker, because he liked bigger guards but failed to do so. Fortunately for him.
The problem here is that my facts are facts, and your fact about the timing of when Buzz begged Acker to come back is not true. Fair people will look and see that I am telling the truth and you are lying, because you have been reminded about this multiple times and continue to perpetuate the same lie.
And Nukem, and Equalizer, and pretty much anyone not named Ners weighing in on the topic. You might want to consider the company you are keeping. Even Goose isn't jumping in on your side here.
In addition, there's no debating that Crean brought Acker and Cubillan in and Buzz deployed them as starters, and they did so to excellent effect. Acker was 3rd in the nation in 3PFG% at 49.5%, had an excellent ORtg (117.1, #124 nationally), and Marquette career-bests in assist rate and turnover rate. Cubillian was 3rd on the team in minutes, also shot excellent (41.2%) from three, and was second on the team in efficiency (119.1, 77th nationally). In addition, the team was more efficient (0.955 ppp) on an adjusted per possession basis than either the year before in 2009 (0.961) or the year after they left in 2011 (0.973).
Buzz did a phenomenal job adjusting to the talent on that team. He did very well slowing the pace, adapting his style, and really readjusting to the roster he had and maximizing what Acker and Cubillan were as players on the offensive end while minimizing the negatives of their size on the defensive end. But he did that with the players he had, which was a pair of players recruited by his predecessor.
You can say I'm being angry and unreasonable, but that doesn't make it so. The reality is I am right and you are simply wrong and having a very tough time accepting that. The only opinion I've offered here is that Buzz did a phenomenal job with the 2009-10 team. Everything else is black and white facts that you are trying to debate. If you want to debate takes, you can argue against my contention that Buzz coached 2009-10 in excellent fashion, none of the rest is up for argument.
The bolded is false.
Mo Acker rejoins the team in August 2009
https://marquettewire.org/3751423/tribune/tribune-sports/acker-to-rejoin-mens-basketball-team/
Junior Cadougan injured in September
https://marquettewire.org/3753116/tribune/tribune-sports/cadougan-out-four-to-six-months/
And if constantly pointing out your errors, mis-statements and exaggerations because you can't admit that your take was horrendous, makes me a "blowhard," it's a badge I will wear with honor. And I will continue down this path the more you continue to double...triple...sextuple down on this nonsense.
Got anything else???
Buzz coached them for THREE years--one as an assistant to Crean and two as head coach.
During his first year coaching them (as Crean's assistant), he had a front row seat witnessing them for 30 or so games and five+ months of practice.
If you want an honest and truthful argument, you have to start by agreeing with basic facts, and that starts with the fact that Buzz was on MU's coaching staff the year before he was promoted to head coach. As such, he had first-hand experience working with everyone on the team.
If you disagree with that, then you're the one trying to pass of falsehoods.
Acker was adequate when he replaced James. Not great, clearly not as good as James, but roughly an average player (which felt like and was a big step down from an all-conference type PG).
If you think a guard with a 29.7 fg% who can’t guard anybody is an average Big East guard I’m glad you’re not in charge of recruiting.
If you think a guard with a 29.7 fg% who can’t guard anybody is an average Big East guard I’m glad you’re not in charge of recruiting.
And who is responsible for the cupboard in a coach’s second year, anyway? I mean, I’ve never heard that argument until now.
Actually this exact topic has been discussed before on Scoop. I don’t have the time, energy or inclination to look for it, but it has.
Don’t recall it. But if it has, it’s an absurd argument.
I hate that Buzz left Wojo a bare cupboard in year 6 though.
The only person embarrassed here is you, though it's funny how desperately you're trying not to be.
Buzz was left with four starting seniors (McNeal, James, Matthews, Burke) on a team that spent time in the top-10 as well as Lazar Hayward, Maurice Acker, David Cubillan, Joe Fulce, and Chris Otule (the last two both committed to Marquette under Crean). Also Tyshawn Taylor, but Buzz couldn't keep him. By any measure a loaded roster in year one and a solid foundation to build on in year two.
Oh, and your "invite him back" characterization is funny. Buzz had to freaking beg Acker back when he realized he couldn't recruit anyone better. Buzz owes his second year success to those two sticking around despite his own admitted best efforts to run them off. No one is saying they were All-Americans. But they were starters and key players on a 6-seed that wouldn't have been a tourney team without them, and they were there because Crean added them to the roster and Buzz failed in his efforts to get rid of them, a failure that ultimately benefited him.
Just stop, man, you really can't do anything but make yourself look worse.
You can bellyache all you want about what stud players Mo Acker and David Cubiallan were, but that doesn't change the fact they weren't studs.
Had Tom Crean been coaching that roster, most everyone could agree that they wouldn't have sniffed a 6 seed.
Stop showing your lack of basketball knowledge by trying to assert inheriting two guards referred to as the "midgets" at a time that word was still being used, implied stocked cupboard.
Interestingly,
Acker in 2010 had an offensive rating of 117.1, 55.4% effective fg%, assist rate of 24.6 and TO rate of 15.4 and was 3rd in the nation in 3pt % (51-103).
Cubillan in 2010 had an offensive rating of 119.1, 59.5 effective fg%, 60% TS and shot 41% from 3.
In John Dawson’s last year at Liberty, he had an offensive rating of 92.1, solid 19.8 assist rate and shot 34% from 3.
Lol. That is interesting.
Keep in mind, John Dawson saw almost no minutes on G League rosters stacked with guys like Cat Barger, Charles Cooke, Mangok Mathiang, Roscoe Smith, Sam Thompson, Luke Petrasek, Brent Arrington, Joe Chealey, Malik Pope, Jeff Roberson, Max Montana...you get the point. Needless to say, the proof is unquestionable that Dawson was an all timer had Wojo not ran him off.
Lol. That is interesting.
Keep in mind, John Dawson saw almost no minutes on G League rosters stacked with guys like Cat Barger, Charles Cooke, Mangok Mathiang, Roscoe Smith, Sam Thompson, Luke Petrasek, Brent Arrington, Joe Chealey, Malik Pope, Jeff Roberson, Max Montana...you get the point. Needless to say, the proof is unquestionable that Dawson was an all timer had Wojo not ran him off.
Where did brew, or anyone else, claim they were "studs?" You were the one who claimed the year two cupboard was "EMPTY." It wasn't.
Probably, but not sure how that is relevant to the point brew is making
Where did brew claim or imply "stocked cupboard?"
Is Brew your Daddy or is it the other way around? Seems plausible. Brew seems to think inheriting a roster with Lazar, Mo, David, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule is a stocked cupboard. Most reasonable people wouldn't look at that roster and think - definitely high major, 6 seed material. Buzz's coaching extracted the max out of that squad, and his additions of Jimmy, DJO, and Dwight helped us avoid what should have been an NIT caliber season.
Not sure why Brew thinks Nick Williams or Tyshawn Taylor matter. Kids commit to coaches, not schools. Buzz had no track record as a head coach other than a 1-year stint at UNO to try to sell to those two recruits. And of course Taylor improved as a Senior to where Kansas wanted him. And Nick Williams folloed Crean to Indiana.
I mean if you want to play this game, I'll gladly repost your highly critical takes on Tyler, and your UBER bullish takes on Wojo. Keep in mind, you lost 1,000 dollars on the bet you made with me betting against Tyler Kolek shooting over 35% from his Junior year.
You and Rico can have all the fun you want at the expense of my take on John Dawson being a much better basketball player than Derrick Wilson. That's fine. I'll take that take to my grave. I'll also gladly take to my grave my take that 10 games into Wojo's career at MU I called it correct that he didn't have "it," and wouldn't be a good coach - while you were popping off about likely future Final Four appearances under Wojo once he got "all his guys." Brew too was big time on that "once he got all his guys" bandwagon. LMAO
Is Brew your Daddy or is it the other way around? Seems plausible. Brew seems to think inheriting a roster with Lazar, Mo, David, Joe Fulce and Chris Otule is a stocked cupboard. Most reasonable people wouldn't look at that roster and think - definitely high major, 6 seed material. Buzz's coaching extracted the max out of that squad, and his additions of Jimmy, DJO, and Dwight helped us avoid what should have been an NIT caliber season.
Not sure why Brew thinks Nick Williams or Tyshawn Taylor matter. Kids commit to coaches, not schools. Buzz had no track record as a head coach other than a 1-year stint at UNO to try to sell to those two recruits. And of course Taylor improved as a Senior to where Kansas wanted him. And Nick Williams folloed Crean to Indiana.
Ners, the smartest thing you did in this discussion was exiting it. Are you just that desperate for a new stupid losing argument to support?
Not nearly as much as you are. I do applaud you though for after 5 years incessant of Pro-joing, you finally did come around and support the winning argument I'd made 10 games into Wojo. Try to learn to let something go. Take your L and carry on to your next dumb argument, like how much the MU Athletic department marketing department sucks.
Aside from the simple reality that how empty the cupboard is in the second year being an idiotic debate, it's not true.
Lazar Hayward, a top-10 scorer in program history, was still there.
Two rotation guards, Acker and Cubillian, were still there.
Scott Christopherson was already there, but was encouraged by Buzz to leave.
Incoming players Chris Otule and Joe Fulce were already committed.
Incoming freshmen Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor were committed, but were not retained.
2009 freshman Erik Williams was already committed.
So 9/13 scholarships were filled for the second year when Crean left. Buzz would go on to add DJO, Buycks, Butler, Cadougan, Maymon, and Mbao, while running off Christopherson and losing Williams and Taylor. Having 15 months to fill 4 scholarships is hardly an empty cupboard. It just isn't.
The only reason anyone could argue the cupboard was bare is because Buzz either tried to run off or couldn't retain 5/9 players who were expected to be on scholarship for 2009-10. Which is an absolutely crazy bonkers wild thing to blame on Crean.
I'm not saying anyone has to like Crean, I'm not saying Buzz didn't do a fantastic coaching job that year. But calling the cupboard bare for year two is both a dumb thing to try to argue and also an outright fiction.
There was some crazy Luke Winn tweet that went something like:
“Wojo had more RSCI top 100 players on his roster (9) than the rest of the Big East combined”
I was the first to call for Shaka to be fired
Farley said Shaka should be canned after the 2022 NCAA tourney loss. He also said he was officially "done" with Marquette basketball forever.
And unlike you, he actually was serious.
I said the day he got hired he should be fired and I was right