Report: FBI Investigated Claims That Bob Knight Groped Women

[rocket surgeon]

And speaking of false accusations ...

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article174356951.html?#emlnl=Afternoon_Newsletter

When Mecklenburg County leaders acknowledged that two health clinics did not notify women about abnormal Pap smears, they insisted the failures were caused by one nurse.

But an investigation by the North Carolina Board of Nursing has found no wrongdoing by Natalie Nicholson and cast blame on “systemic” problems in the county’s Health Department.

So they tried to scapegoat one poor nurse when it was something that had been an ongoing problem for years. Typical.

  Hopefully the women whose tests were abnormal are ok, but good thing bobby knight wasn't involved,eyyn'er?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Welp, it happened. DeVos issued a DCL rescinding the previous two DCLs and didn't replace them with anything.

For those celebrating this as a win, you need to understand that this move does NOT change the law. It merely strips guidance from the law. So now universities are now free to loosen some of their standards as many have hoped for. But they are also now free to make them even more one sided against the accused. Or against accusers. This move has done only one thing, created confusion.

Most universities are going to keep on as they have been because the assumption is that once DeVos is booted from power the next Secretary of Education will issue a new DCL similar to the one from 2011. Hopefully one that offers even better guidance than before. However, I do predict that you will see some more Baylors and Tennessees because universities now have more leeway to cover up high profile sexual assaults when it suits them.

Our country is more dangerous today than it was yesterday.

[rocket surgeon]

Welp, it happened. DeVos issued a DCL rescinding the previous two DCLs and didn't replace them with anything.

For those celebrating this as a win, you need to understand that this move does NOT change the law. It merely strips guidance from the law. So now universities are now free to loosen some of their standards as many have hoped for. But they are also now free to make them even more one sided against the accused. Or against accusers. This move has done only one thing, created confusion.

Most universities are going to keep on as they have been because the assumption is that once DeVos is booted from power the next Secretary of Education will issue a new DCL similar to the one from 2011. Hopefully one that offers even better guidance than before. However, I do predict that you will see some more Baylors and Tennessees because universities now have more leeway to cover up high profile sexual assaults when it suits them.

Our country is more dangerous today than it was yesterday.

Whoa whoa whoa...I trust tamu, that you don't base your decisions on cases the same way you reacted here.  What you are assuming is that schools will NOT allow the accuser(rape victim) to appeal a decision.

"ability wasn't exclusively carved-out for accusers. While the new guidelines do state that schools can choose to allow both sides to appeal, they also specifically raise the notion of enabling appeal "solely in the responding party."

Depending on the situation, the schools will have discretion.  I am sure that if this swings too far to the perpetrator, there will be actions as well.  Let's be honest here-most schools are more than likely to continue to investigate these incidents as they have. 

  Here's the thing-the schools should be concentrating on doing THE RIGHT THING-period.  This should not be a partisan issue. Just dot all the I's, shine the light of evidence on everything and no, we have not become more dangerous.  That's not a "tamu-like" reaction. Can't knee-jerk this one because of who is in charge

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

 

Rocket, I don't think I said any of the things you said in the above.

[MU82]

Welp, it happened. DeVos issued a DCL rescinding the previous two DCLs and didn't replace them with anything.

For those celebrating this as a win, you need to understand that this move does NOT change the law. It merely strips guidance from the law. So now universities are now free to loosen some of their standards as many have hoped for. But they are also now free to make them even more one sided against the accused. Or against accusers. This move has done only one thing, created confusion.

Most universities are going to keep on as they have been because the assumption is that once DeVos is booted from power the next Secretary of Education will issue a new DCL similar to the one from 2011. Hopefully one that offers even better guidance than before. However, I do predict that you will see some more Baylors and Tennessees because universities now have more leeway to cover up high profile sexual assaults when it suits them.

Our country is more dangerous today than it was yesterday.

DeVos is so woefully unfit for this job, as is the case for so many of the current Cabinet members. The nation will be better off when our Education Secretary has at least a little understanding how, y'know, education works.

[GGGG]

Rocket, I don't think I said any of the things you said in the above.

You didn't. He's too busy filing out his victim card to actually read anything.

[rocket surgeon]

Rocket, I don't think I said any of the things you said in the above.

i was basing my response pretty much around this-

     " Our country is more dangerous today than it was yesterday."

i'm sure that you are going to be able to defend it from your standpoint, and that's finem but it just seemed out of character for you. 

[rocket surgeon]

You didn't. He's too busy filing out his victim card to actually read anything.

have you ever hung around someone who's got a big hunk of spinach caught between their two front teeth, but no one will tell them?  or another who smells like he's got a load in his shorts and you keep encouraging him to go hit on the click of chicks standing there next to the tapper? 

   

[tower912]

Nah, I tell them.  It is the adult thing to do.   

[B. McBannerson]

DeVos is so woefully unfit for this job, as is the case for so many of the current Cabinet members. The nation will be better off when our Education Secretary has at least a little understanding how, y'know, education works.

Education that continues to fail the American students?  That's exactly why we need someone different instead of the same old same old of how education works (doesn't work). 

Great to see that more due process will be used at least by some schools moving forward.  This is about fairness, people's lives can be permanently altered.  We need to get it right, or at least attempt to.  If schools choose to keep the old standards and they continue to screw up, they will be settled in courts of law.

The fact that arbitration is now an option from a neutral third party, how can anyone be against this? 

[tower912]

Unless the accused played for buzz.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Great to see that more due process will be used at least by some schools moving forward.  This is about fairness, people's lives can be permanently altered.  We need to get it right, or at least attempt to.  If schools choose to keep the old standards and they continue to screw up, they will be settled in courts of law.

We don't need to get it right. We need to get it right as much as possible. The only accountability system that never punishes an innocent person is one that never punishes anybody. The 2011 DCL was a step towards getting it right. DeVos' DCL is an attempt to completely erase that step. Unless you think that universities were "getting it right" prior to 2011. If she had made edits to the 2011 DCL to try and improve it, that would be one thing. Instead, we have uncertainty.

Fortunately, most universities recognize that the 2011 DCL, though it could be improved, was a positive step forward on this important issue. Most will continue to honor it. As Rocket said, universities should focus on doing the right thing. I trust that most will.

The fact that arbitration is now an option from a neutral third party, how can anyone be against this?

It could be a good thing. Who's training the arbitrators? Do they have a strong working knowledge of the nuerobiology of trauma, power based personal violence, and how to interview survivors of sexual assault and those accused of sexual assault?

If this is about fairness, why wouldn't you want experts on the subject conducting the process?

[B. McBannerson]

We don't need to get it right. We need to get it right as much as possible. The only accountability system that never punishes an innocent person is one that never punishes anybody. The 2011 DCL was a step towards getting it right. DeVos' DCL is an attempt to completely erase that step. Unless you think that universities were "getting it right" prior to 2011. If she had made edits to the 2011 DCL to try and improve it, that would be one thing. Instead, we have uncertainty.

Fortunately, most universities recognize that the 2011 DCL, though it could be improved, was a positive step forward on this important issue. Most will continue to honor it. As Rocket said, universities should focus on doing the right thing. I trust that most will.

It could be a good thing. Who's training the arbitrators? Do they have a strong working knowledge of the nuerobiology of trauma, power based personal violence, and how to interview survivors of sexual assault and those accused of sexual assault?

If this is about fairness, why wouldn't you want experts on the subject conducting the process?

We don't need to get it right.  Well, that says it all.

I see today that Mr. Watson of Creighton had rape charges dropped against him.  His life turned upside down.  Her story neglected to give all the details.  Does that make him innocent? It does not, but it most surely puts a cloud over her story and charges were dropped.  We have to get it right, or attempt to. 

Who's training the abritrators? Who's training the TITLE IX people that keep getting this so wrong leading to all these court cases.  Isn't that an equally good question?   

Why is it ok to ruin the lives of the accused without properly allowing a defense, with an attorney that can actually participate, without a stacked deck?  This is the USA.

The country got more fair two days ago, and that's a good thing. 

[MU82]

Seth Myers:

In an interview with CNN, Hillary Clington said that the electoral college needs to be eliminated. "Same with regular college," said Betsy DeVos.

[tower912]

MU82, cut it out, man.    IMO, the one thing that will ultimately lead to this board shutting down is if we piss off the mods so badly with political stuff that they get fed up and pull the plug.    Clearly, the fact that so many can't help but inject their politics into everything is emblematic of our society at large.   But enough.   Stop starting it.    If others start it, retaliate.     But let them be the clowns first. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We don't need to get it right.  Well, that says it all.

Read the rest of the quote. I am waiting to see your outrage for the thousands of wrongfully imprisoned men and women in our prison system.

I see today that Mr. Watson of Creighton had rape charges dropped against him.  His life turned upside down.  Her story neglected to give all the details.  Does that make him innocent? It does not, but it most surely puts a cloud over her story and charges were dropped.  We have to get it right, or attempt to. 

Mr. Watson's life was "turned upside down" by the LEGAL PROCESS. Not the university process. Last I checked the District Attorney is not governed by Title IX. But I'm glad you brought up the case. As I stated elsewhere, the DA decided to drop the case because the young woman admitted to committing a consensual sex act with a different person the same night, hours earlier. Now a logical person would ask, "what does her being fondled consensually by a different individual have to do with an accusation of rape by another man?" The answer is nothing. The fact that this is enough reason for a DA to drop a case is exactly the problem with the legal system and sexual assault. Its not about justice, its about what a DA can win. I have no idea if Mr. Watson is innocent or not. But dropping the case for this reason is ridiculous.

Who's training the abritrators? Who's training the TITLE IX people that keep getting this so wrong leading to all these court cases.  Isn't that an equally good question?

I can't speak to all "Title IX people" but at my university we receive extensive training from professionals in law enforcement, psychology, neurobiology, nursing, and social work. We also hire individuals like myself who got masters degrees and JDs studying this very issue. In fact, a lot of the required training topics for "Title IX people" were outlined in one of the documents that DeVos just rescinded. So now universities can train their staff even less if they choose to.

And can you please stop the nonsense about "all these court cases." 150 out of 50,000+ is 0.003% or less. If police and hospitals got sued at a 0.003% rate they would be ecstatic.

Now back to who is training the arbitrators. Surely you wouldn't be against them getting the necessary training to properly understand these cases, right?

Why is it ok to ruin the lives of the accused without properly allowing a defense, with an attorney that can actually participate, without a stacked deck?  This is the USA.

Again:

1. No one's life is ruined. The process is confidential, doesn't go on any records, and the worst thing that can happen is that they can't go to one college but can go to another.
2. They are allowed to properly give a defense. They enjoy more due process than a student accused of any other conduct violation.
3. Attorneys are allowed to participate even though they aren't allowed to participate in other kinds of cases at most universities.
4. This is an EDUCATIONAL process not a LEGAL process
5. You gave three examples of how the deck was stacked earlier in this thread. I explained to you that you were mistaken on two of them. The third is a matter of opinion. I don't think the standard of evidence constitutes a "stacked deck" but can understand why others would want to use a "clear and convincing" standard. If DeVos had switched that, I would have been fine. That's not what happened.
6. Universities have a mandate to be fair to not only the accused but also to the accuser and the campus community.

The country got more fair two days ago, and that's a good thing.

Again, no it didn't. DeVos didn't change the law. She didn't add due process for accused or take away due process for accusers. She stripped guidance which creates confusion and uncertainty. Also, you....as you often do....are confusing "fairness" with "losing an advantage." Prior to 2011, the "deck was stacked" against accusers at universities. To this day it is still massively stacked against accusers in the legal system. The 2011 DCL helped even the playing field at universities for accusers and accused, it didn't tip the scale towards the accusers. And remember, universities are supposed to treat accusers and accused equally which is different from the legal system where the accused gets all the protections.

[Jay Bee]

http://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2017/09/23/a_campus-rape_official_who_disses_men_onine.html

"Can male students expect a fair process when a member of the school’s department responsible for handling sexual assault accusations has posted anti-male sentiments online?"

[rocket surgeon]

http://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2017/09/23/a_campus-rape_official_who_disses_men_onine.html

"Can male students expect a fair process when a member of the school’s department responsible for handling sexual assault accusations has posted anti-male sentiments online?"

there is a real and legitimate reason for the debate.  it cannot be a "because i said so" issue.  if all were fine and good-beautiful.  if there needs to be some refining-beautiful as well.  we don't live in a static world.  debate, if carried on fairly, is healthy.  title IX deserves to be revisited and revisited and revisited to make sure it is carried out fairly-nothing wrong with that.  while it is being revisited however, they will implement what they have in front of them until something better comes along

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

http://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2017/09/23/a_campus-rape_official_who_disses_men_onine.html

"Can male students expect a fair process when a member of the school’s department responsible for handling sexual assault accusations has posted anti-male sentiments online?"

Did you read the part of the article that said "At the university, Harrington-Rosen is not responsible for investigating or resolving complaints of sexual assault"?

But your point is well taken. I am 100% certain that there are "Title IX People" as Chicos put it that are biased against men (or women, or people of color, or lgbtq, or straight, or religious, or atheists). Just as I am 100% certain that there are police officers, judges, jurors who are biased against people of specific identities. In both cases the biased individual either needs to receive further education/training or be removed from their position if that is not successful.

[jsglow]

Did you read the part of the article that said "At the university, Harrington-Rosen is not responsible for investigating or resolving complaints of sexual assault"?

But your point is well taken. I am 100% certain that there are "Title IX People" as Chicos put it that are biased against men (or women, or people of color, or lgbtq, or straight, or religious, or atheists). Just as I am 100% certain that there are police officers, judges, jurors who are biased against people of specific identities. In both cases the biased individual either needs to receive further education/training or be removed from their position if that is not successful.

While I think I will regret wading back in, can you see how some folks might believe that an 'activist agenda' has become part of the Title IX culture?  I understand that individual at Northwestern isn't personally responsible for rulings.  But do you think she has any kind of open mind on the topic?  I don't.

[tower912]

If she isn't part of the investigation process or the adjudicating process, her bias is of no more consequence than any of ours.  She's just stating an opinion, as are we all.

[jsglow]

If she isn't part of the investigation process or the adjudicating process, her bias is of no more consequence than any of ours.  She's just stating an opinion, as are we all.

Perhaps.  But she clearly holds an extreme position.  Kind of reminds me of the mural that got whitewashed up at MU last year.  Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Jockey]

Chicos = pro-rape liar.

I thought the little creep was banned.

[rocket surgeon]

If she isn't part of the investigation process or the adjudicating process, her bias is of no more consequence than any of ours.  She's just stating an opinion, as are we all.

"This year Northwestern University, above, hired Kate Harrington-Rosen as its Equity Outreach and Education Specialist for the Office of Title IX/Equal Opportunity and Access. In this capacity, she is responsible for “developing and delivering training for students, faculty, and staff on Title IX policy and procedures, as well as tracking and assessing education and prevention efforts across campus,” according to the Evanston, Ill., school."


   if she is all the above, one has got to think that she has a little more influence in the process that we would.  she may just be stating an opinion in her blog or whatever that is, but it's what's between her ears is that has to affect the training she delivers.  her ANTI-male bias is hard to ignore when you're dealing with violence against her side.  i'm sure most of us can see the problems here without putting forth one of the many analogies that could equivocate this situation. 

 my guess is that the university hired her without knowing she hated guys so much and now, getting rid of her could be a real sticky whicket.  these "activist type" people usually hide behind some vague, do-gooder degree until the light is shone on them.

 the university, by trying to take care of one problem, just unintentionally or not, created another

 

[jsglow]

So DeVos was just on Fox News.  While she didn't say much, two points were clearly made.  1) One sexual assault was one to many but so was one inappropriately handled case for the accused and 2) new guidelines are supposedly currently in development.  Perhaps we should send in the scoop thread for administration consideration!  It does seem that ironing this issue out is a clear objective for the Department of Education.  We'll see what happens over the next several months.