MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: mu03eng on August 01, 2018, 12:01:28 PM
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https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-urban-meyer-knew-about-2015-domestic-violence-incident-involving-ex-assistant/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-urban-meyer-knew-about-2015-domestic-violence-incident-involving-ex-assistant/)
To sum up, long time Urban assistant has a history of domestic abuse. Urban knew of 2009 abuse but claimed to not know about 2015 incident, further he called a report a liar who implied he did know. Said reporter has now published text messages from the abuse victim in which Urban's wife not only is told but responses that she's going to have to tell Urban.
So unless the story is I haven't talked to my wife since 2015, I think Urban is in a heap of trouble. Unfortunately it'll be mostly because he lied to the media (they hate that) but either way does he survive at OSU?
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People are going to say he has plausible deniability since these texts were sent to his wife. My guess is that he ultimately survives this.
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People are going to say he has plausible deniability since these texts were sent to his wife. My guess is that he ultimately survives this.
I love the subjective outrage in society :o
As to the plausible deniability side, that's going to require Urban to throw his wife under the bus...."she never told me, how was I supposed to know" and since she said in the text messages "I've got to tell Urban" that makes it an overt act(in my mind) to not tell Urban which is a helluva thing to put on your significant other to save your job.
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I would conduct a thorough investigation and let the results decide.
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I would conduct a thorough investigation and let the results decide.
Let's assume you investigate, what's your bar for termination versus not?
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My bar and that of a Dean at a B1G powerhouse are quite different.
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I love the subjective outrage in society :o
As to the plausible deniability side, that's going to require Urban to throw his wife under the bus...."she never told me, how was I supposed to know" and since she said in the text messages "I've got to tell Urban" that makes it an overt act(in my mind) to not tell Urban which is a helluva thing to put on your significant other to save your job.
What in Urban Meyer's past leads you to believe that he would be opposed to doing something like this?
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What in Urban Meyer's past leads you to believe that he would be opposed to doing something like this?
Fair
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https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-urban-meyer-knew-about-2015-domestic-violence-incident-involving-ex-assistant/ (https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-urban-meyer-knew-about-2015-domestic-violence-incident-involving-ex-assistant/)
To sum up, long time Urban assistant has a history of domestic abuse. Urban knew of 2009 abuse but claimed to not know about 2015 incident, further he called a report a liar who implied he did know. Said reporter has now published text messages from the abuse victim in which Urban's wife not only is told but responses that she's going to have to tell Urban.
So unless the story is I haven't talked to my wife since 2015, I think Urban is in a heap of trouble. Unfortunately it'll be mostly because he lied to the media (they hate that) but either way does he survive at OSU?
If the question of Urban's employment is based on the bolded, I think - based on other examples of the same going on currently in the world - I would say he will not be fired.
Should he? Depends. Much like athletes, do you think coaches should "just win" and their personal lives shouldn't have an impact? Or should coaches/athletes be expected to maintain morals/ethics as part of their job description?
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The real question is about Meyer and standing ovations going forward.
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Ohio State fired Jim Tressel for far less....
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If the question of Urban's employment is based on the bolded, I think - based on other examples of the same going on currently in the world - I would say he will not be fired.
Should he? Depends. Much like athletes, do you think coaches should "just win" and their personal lives shouldn't have an impact? Or should coaches/athletes be expected to maintain morals/ethics as part of their job description?
Another factor is the potential Title IX violations by both Urban and his wife.
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Ohio State fired Jim Tressel for far less....
Turning a blind eye to your athletes committing NCAA violations? Enforcement of NCAA rules is actually part of the coach's job description.
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Ohio State fired Jim Tressel for far less....
Under Tressel, OSU football was under investigation for major rules violations (not to mention that Tressel was falling out of favor with fans despite racking up wins).
I'm not sure if what Meyer did violates any NCAA rules that could harm the program. If not, he's safe as long as he keeps winning.
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Another factor is the potential Title IX violations by both Urban and his wife.
Yep, his wife was working in the Nursing School in 2015 which means she has reporting obligations.
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Under Tressel, OSU football was under investigation for major rules violations (not to mention that Tressel was falling out of favor with fans despite racking up wins).
I'm not sure if what Meyer did violates any NCAA rules that could harm the program. If not, he's safe as long as he keeps winning.
I'm not sure if what Paterno did violates any NCAA rules that could harm the program. If not, he's safe as long as he keeps winning.
How'd that work out?
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I'm not sure if what Paterno did violates any NCAA rules that could harm the program. If not, he's safe as long as he keeps winning.
How'd that work out?
Looking the other way on child molestation for 30+ years is not the same thing as lying to the media about knowing a coach's history of domestic violence accusations against him.
Do I think Meyer should be fired? Of course. He has long been a sleezebag. I just don't have confidence in Ohio State to "do the right thing" when it comes to athletics.
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Looking the other way on child molestation for 30+ years is not the same thing as lying to the media about knowing a coach's history of domestic violence accusations against him.
If the details are true, Urban looked the other way on domestic violence for 8+ years, he'll get nailed for the lying if anything not the fact that he enabled an abuser. It's not better or worse than what Paterno was accused of....they are the same level of awful.
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Outside of the obvious terrible things happening, a couple of things stick out to me:
-Why would Meyer risk losing his job over this wide receivers coach?
-Why not just be contrite at media day and admit he made a mistake in giving this guy a second chance? The lies on top of the lies are so stupid here. Did Urban really think McMurphy's reporting was wrong? How in the hell didn't Urban talk to his wife about it after the initial report and then come clean? To be that arrogant to think this was just going to go away is so ignorant and moronic here.
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Outside of the obvious terrible things happening, a couple of things stick out to me:
-Why would Meyer risk losing his job over this wide receivers coach?
-Why not just be contrite at media day and admit he made a mistake in giving this guy a second chance? The lies on top of the lies are so stupid here. Did Urban really think McMurphy's reporting was wrong? How in the hell didn't Urban talk to his wife about it after the initial report and then come clean? To be that arrogant to think this was just going to go away is so ignorant and moronic here.
Smith was known as a top-notch recruiter and his grandfather was former OSU coach Earle Bruce who just so happened to give Urb his first coaching job and acted as his long-time mentor.
Urban Meyer had gotten away with everything else up until this simply by playing dumb or not answering questions. You're absolutely right that it was ignorant and moronic but his strategy had never failed him in the past.
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Looking the other way on child molestation for 30+ years is not the same thing as lying to the media about knowing a coach's history of domestic violence accusations against him.
Do I think Meyer should be fired? Of course. He has long been a sleezebag. I just don't have confidence in Ohio State to "do the right thing" when it comes to athletics.
I'm on board here. If the worst here about Urban is true, it makes him a bad dude. But JoePa was on a whole different level. If JoePa wasn't JoePa, he'd have died in the klink.
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I'm on board here. If the worst here about Urban is true, it makes him a bad dude. But JoePa was on a whole different level. If JoePa wasn't JoePa, he'd have died in the klink.
Honestly I'd love to see the reasoning here. Independent of the type of crime committed by a subordinate (I will not engage on which is "worse", both are awful, full stop), what is demonstrably different in the two situations? They were each informed of at least once incident of the crime in question and failed to follow up or do more than pass it up the chain, there is also strong evidence that there was at least one other incident that they were/should have been aware which creates a pattern of crimes that should have been a giant red flag.
This is not a Paterno defense, this is more a question of how is what is alleged of Urban different than Paterno?
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Smith was known as a top-notch recruiter and his grandfather was former OSU coach Earle Bruce who just so happened to give Urb his first coaching job and acted as his long-time mentor.
Urban Meyer had gotten away with everything else up until this simply by playing dumb or not answering questions. You're absolutely right that it was ignorant and moronic but his strategy had never failed him in the past.
I read that about Smith, but if you're Meyer, and Smith was in trouble again, repeatedly over the years, you got to cut that guy loose. That's part of the optics here, there's giving a guy a second chance, and then just willfully ignoring domestic abuse right there on your staff.
I think you're right that his playing dumb and the relationships he's forged with the media over the years have no doubt helped him greatly. I just can't fathom what his mindset was, with his wife involved, thinking this was just going to go away. If nothing else, I want to see him fired for pure stupidity.
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Honestly I'd love to see the reasoning here. Independent of the type of crime committed by a subordinate (I will not engage on which is "worse", both are awful, full stop), what is demonstrably different in the two situations? They were each informed of at least once incident of the crime in question and failed to follow up or do more than pass it up the chain, there is also strong evidence that there was at least one other incident that they were/should have been aware which creates a pattern of crimes that should have been a giant red flag.
This is not a Paterno defense, this is more a question of how is what is alleged of Urban different than Paterno?
I completely agree with not wanting to get into which type of abuse is "worse." Honestly though, I'd be lying if I said that my take isn't probably impacted by that. I acknowledge that may speak to my internalizing domestic abuse as "not as bad" which may be a blind spot on my part. But that being said -
I think the underlying crime, the identity of the victim(s), and the employer's role in bringing those victims to the perpetrator all play a role here. Assuming the worst in both cases, Sandusky's employment at PSU played a not-insignificant part in enabling his crimes. They happened on campus, and his role at PSU provided him access to minors who became his victims. I'm not defending Urban (or Smith) any more than you're defending Paterno (or Sandusky) but I think the nature of Smith's alleged crimes are more detached from his employment/tOSU than Sandusky's were from PSU.
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I read that about Smith, but if you're Meyer, and Smith was in trouble again, repeatedly over the years, you got to cut that guy loose. That's part of the optics here, there's giving a guy a second chance, and then just willfully ignoring domestic abuse right there on your staff.
I think you're right that his playing dumb and the relationships he's forged with the media over the years have no doubt helped him greatly. I just can't fathom what his mindset was, with his wife involved, thinking this was just going to go away. If nothing else, I want to see him fired for pure stupidity.
My observances about Urban Meyer suggest that he has a singular focus (winning the next thing) and that he's not a great long-term thinker. Honestly I don't think he's a very intelligent individual.
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I completely agree with not wanting to get into which type of abuse is "worse." Honestly though, I'd be lying if I said that my take isn't probably impacted by that. I acknowledge that may speak to my internalizing domestic abuse as "not as bad" which may be a blind spot on my part. But that being said -
I think the underlying crime, the identity of the victim(s), and the employer's role in bringing those victims to the perpetrator all play a role here. Assuming the worst in both cases, Sandusky's employment at PSU played a not-insignificant part in enabling his crimes. They happened on campus, and his role at PSU provided him access to minors who became his victims. I'm not defending Urban (or Smith) any more than you're defending Paterno (or Sandusky) but I think the nature of Smith's alleged crimes are more detached from his employment/tOSU than Sandusky's were from PSU.
All fair and reasonable. There is some question if Smith's attachment to Florida/tOSU program influenced how the incidents were handled by police, but that's probably not fair to bring up at this point.
The thing I keep coming back to in terms of a "cover up", for lack of a better term, is that Urban and his wife, by his own admission, counciled Smith and his then pregnant wife after the 2009 assault. Smith goes and does it again in 2015, it's clear Mrs. Urban knows, and yet nothing is done about it....that's straight up enabling right? It is one victim against many but it's still enablement.
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My observances about Urban Meyer suggest that he has a singular focus (winning the next thing) and that he's not a great long-term thinker. Honestly I don't think he's a very intelligent individual.
Agreed, there's really not much depth there with him.
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According to Dan Wetzel, Urban is meeting with AD Gene Smith at some point today.
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According to Dan Wetzel, Urban is meeting with AD Gene Smith at some point today.
Gotta make sure your stories align properly!
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Placed on administrative leave.
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-Why would Meyer risk losing his job over this wide receivers coach?
He is the nephew of Earle Bruce.
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Honestly I'd love to see the reasoning here. Independent of the type of crime committed by a subordinate (I will not engage on which is "worse", both are awful, full stop), what is demonstrably different in the two situations? They were each informed of at least once incident of the crime in question and failed to follow up or do more than pass it up the chain, there is also strong evidence that there was at least one other incident that they were/should have been aware which creates a pattern of crimes that should have been a giant red flag.
This is not a Paterno defense, this is more a question of how is what is alleged of Urban different than Paterno?
I think that in most instances child rape is worse than spousal abuse. I can't fathom how anyone would feel otherwise.
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I think that in most instances child rape is worse than spousal abuse. I can't fathom how anyone would feel otherwise.
I agree, Lenny - a matter of degrees.
But, I think Eng is right, in that if Urban gets fired, it will be for a similar reason as JoPa. The crimes that the underlings committed were vastly different, but both guys failed to exercise proper oversight and judgement.
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I agree, Lenny - a matter of degrees.
But, I think Eng is right, in that if Urban gets fired, it will be for a similar reason as JoPa. The crimes that the underlings committed were vastly different, but both guys failed to exercise proper oversight and judgement.
True, but there's at least a chance (1 in a 1000, 1 in a 1,000,000?) that there could be extenuating or conflicting circumstances in a spousal abuse case. Child rape? No.
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I think that in most instances child rape is worse than spousal abuse. I can't fathom how anyone would feel otherwise.
I disagree Lenny. Both are horrendous acts born out of evil that defy comparison. Both are deserving of the highest level of condemnation. I can't fathom how anyone would feel otherwise. I say this as someone who works with survivors of both on a daily basis.
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True, but there's at least a chance (1 in a 1000, 1 in a 1,000,000?) that there could be extenuating or conflicting circumstances in a spousal abuse case.
Care to elaborate?
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Care to elaborate?
Sure. I know of an instance where in a contentious divorce case spousal abuse was alleged. Turned out to be serious arguing (back and forth) but nothing physical.
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I disagree Lenny. Both are horrendous acts born out of evil that defy comparison. Both are deserving of the highest level of condemnation. I can't fathom how anyone would feel otherwise. I say this as someone who works with survivors of both on a daily basis.
I gotta side with Lenny here, TAMU.
You are correct that both are horrendous and no mercy should be shown to the perpetrator. But, sexually attacking children just seems worse than any crime known to man.
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I disagree Lenny. Both are horrendous acts born out of evil that defy comparison. Both are deserving of the highest level of condemnation. I can't fathom how anyone would feel otherwise. I say this as someone who works with survivors of both on a daily basis.
If I'm wrong on the law, I apologize and admit I'm wrong, but can't a wife who hits or slaps her husband be charged with spousal abuse? To me that's less awful than an adult raping a child.
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Sure. I know of an instance where in a contentious divorce case spousal abuse was alleged. Turned out to be serious arguing (back and forth) but nothing physical.
That's alleged abuse. You said there were cases with extenuating circumstances. That implies that spousal abuse itself is not so bad in certain circumstances.
And why do we need to argue the relative levels of evil here? Are any of you actually going with, "Yeah, he beat up his wife, but at least he didn't rape a kid"?
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Sure. I know of an instance where in a contentious divorce case spousal abuse was alleged. Turned out to be serious arguing (back and forth) but nothing physical.
And Woody Allen was accused of child abuse but the prosecutor declined to press charges. So what? Agree that arguing the "relative levels of evil" between spousal abuse and child abuse is pretty unnecessary.
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If I'm wrong on the law, I apologize and admit I'm wrong, but can't a wife who hits or slaps her husband be charged with spousal abuse? To me that's less awful than an adult raping a child.
If that's what you meant than we are in agreement. The implication I got from your original post was beating/raping your spouse isn't as evil as raping a child. For me, they are both the highest forms of despicable and should be condemned equally. In this specific case, there are photos of injuries and allegations of years of physical violence. The victim described one instance as him picking her up off the ground by her neck, slamming her against a wall, and holding her there. There is no defense for that.
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Actually Lenny may have stumbled on a defense that both Jim Jordan and Urban Meyer can use:
"Hey we're not as bad as child rapers. Go Buckeyes".
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Sure. I know of an instance where in a contentious divorce case spousal abuse was alleged. Turned out to be serious arguing (back and forth) but nothing physical.
Yeah you mixed up your words there that made this sound different.
You could have false accusations of child molestation as well.
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Instead of arguing over which is worse, spousal abuse or child rape, how about you guys concentrate back on the real torpedo that's about to sink the SS Meyer:
OSU conducted an investigation without so much as interviewing the victim.
Haven't picked up a Webster's lately, but pretty damn certain that's - at best - the definition of a cover up, and - at worst - a conspiracy.
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Instead of arguing over which is worse, spousal abuse or child rape, how about you guys concentrate back on the real torpedo that's about to sink the SS Meyer:
OSU conducted an investigation without so much as interviewing the victim.
Haven't picked up a Webster's lately, but pretty damn certain that's - at best - the definition of a cover up, and - at worst - a conspiracy.
That torpedo is destined for SS Gene Smith.....and there is a torpedo headed for Mike Drake if tOSU reacts by doing an internal investigation as opposed to turning it over to a third party (though I would strongly recommend against Louis Freeh).
Meyer is going to get sunk for either lying or for not reporting(Title IX violation)....I'm fairly confident he gowne at this point.
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That torpedo is destined for SS Gene Smith.....and there is a torpedo headed for Mike Drake if tOSU reacts by doing an internal investigation as opposed to turning it over to a third party (though I would strongly recommend against Louis Freeh).
Meyer is going to get sunk for either lying or for not reporting(Title IX violation)....I'm fairly confident he gowne at this point.
Or he'll throw his wife under the bus and it will be basically a sham of an investigation. (Throwing his wife under the bus is probably a poor analogy in this case, but I'm sticking with it.)
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Or he'll throw his wife under the bus and it will be basically a sham of an investigation. (Throwing his wife under the bus is probably a poor analogy in this case, but I'm sticking with it.)
I don't think there is anyway he can throw his wife under the bus that doesn't take him with it. She knew, he has referred to her as a co-coach, other coaches wives knew....there is no plausible scenario where he doesn't know. He either gets $hitcanned for lying and making the university look bad or because he failed to report a Title IX investigation. Plus as far as I can tell, SS Mrs Meyer also has Title IX reporting obligations so she could be sued, etc.
The only possible way he could "escape" is if he actually did report it(2015) and tOSU kicked it meaning he later just lied about knowing it. Then the whole university is going down, but hey he did "something" about a domestic abuser.
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Or he'll throw his wife under the bus and it will be basically a sham of an investigation. (Throwing his wife under the bus is probably a poor analogy in this case, but I'm sticking with it.)
I see what you did there. Well played.
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That torpedo is destined for SS Gene Smith.....and there is a torpedo headed for Mike Drake if tOSU reacts by doing an internal investigation as opposed to turning it over to a third party (though I would strongly recommend against Louis Freeh).
Meyer is going to get sunk for either lying or for not reporting(Title IX violation)....I'm fairly confident he gowne at this point.
As well he should be. I recall seeing an HBO Real Sports with him, and they kept trying to project some kind of depth or thoughtfulness on him. It didn't work. He came across as bland and a complete prisoner to his unconscious impulse to win college football games at any cost. This is a completely unsurprising outcome.
That said, he'll be coaching at Bowling Green within three years.
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One thing that hasn't been addressed yet. Title IX lost a lot of its teeth when DeVos rescinded the 2011 Dear Colleague Letter and replaced it with nothing. OSU could make an argument that under the current (lack of) guidance, Meyer had no obligation to report. Of course this all happened before the DCL was rescinded but I have a hard time imagining this Office of Civil Rights coming after them for violating a standard that they rescinded.
Where Meyer has no wiggle room is with OSU's internal policies and his own contract, both of which clearly state that he needs to report any instance of violence the instance he becomes aware of it. I don't see any way he can argue around that. Of course, it would be up to OSU to enforce both of those documents. If they choose to do a sham of an investigation and excuse the behavior of their coach, I'm not sure if there's anything anyone can do to stop it. They would take a PR hit for sure, but is that enough to convince them to fire their coach? I would like to believe that doing the right thing would simply be enough motivation to fire him but we will see.
It will also be interesting to see where else this information went internally at OSU. If Mrs. Meyer only told Urban, than she is going down with him. If she told others at OSU and nothing was done....lots of people could be in a lot of trouble.
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I'm not sure why or how, but I have a feeling Meyer will be coaching at OSU in '18 & '19.
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Or he'll throw his wife under the bus.
Or have Zach Smith do it for him. :-\
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I completely agree with not wanting to get into which type of abuse is "worse." Honestly though, I'd be lying if I said that my take isn't probably impacted by that. I acknowledge that may speak to my internalizing domestic abuse as "not as bad" which may be a blind spot on my part. But that being said -
I think the underlying crime, the identity of the victim(s), and the employer's role in bringing those victims to the perpetrator all play a role here. Assuming the worst in both cases, Sandusky's employment at PSU played a not-insignificant part in enabling his crimes. They happened on campus, and his role at PSU provided him access to minors who became his victims. I'm not defending Urban (or Smith) any more than you're defending Paterno (or Sandusky) but I think the nature of Smith's alleged crimes are more detached from his employment/tOSU than Sandusky's were from PSU.
This is where I am. If I was manager of an employee that abused his wife on two occasions six years apart and I did nothing about it, I would be a bad person but I certainly wouldn't expect to be fired or even disciplined for it by my employer. But if one of my employees told me he witnessed another of my employees committing a heinous act against a child on company premises and I did not take every appropriate step to report and follow it through, I certainly would expect punishment from my company. Personally I expect I would do the right thing in each case, but I'm a lot more sure I would in the JoPa situation than the Urban Meyer situation.
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One thing that hasn't been addressed yet. Title IX lost a lot of its teeth when DeVos rescinded the 2011 Dear Colleague Letter and replaced it with nothing. OSU could make an argument that under the current (lack of) guidance, Meyer had no obligation to report. Of course this all happened before the DCL was rescinded but I have a hard time imagining this Office of Civil Rights coming after them for violating a standard that they rescinded.
Where Meyer has no wiggle room is with OSU's internal policies and his own contract, both of which clearly state that he needs to report any instance of violence the instance he becomes aware of it. I don't see any way he can argue around that. Of course, it would be up to OSU to enforce both of those documents. If they choose to do a sham of an investigation and excuse the behavior of their coach, I'm not sure if there's anything anyone can do to stop it. They would take a PR hit for sure, but is that enough to convince them to fire their coach? I would like to believe that doing the right thing would simply be enough motivation to fire him but we will see.
It will also be interesting to see where else this information went internally at OSU. If Mrs. Meyer only told Urban, than she is going down with him. If she told others at OSU and nothing was done....lots of people could be in a lot of trouble.
So apparently he has a $38M buyout of his contract if he is fired for anything but misconduct. However he can be fired "for cause" for not reporting a known Title IX violation. That includes "(including, but not limited to, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual exploitation, intimate violence and stalking) that involve any student, faculty, or staff."
And "a “known violation” shall mean a violation or an allegation of a violation of Title IX that Coach is aware of or has reasonable cause to believe is taking place or may have taken place."
So he really is f*cked here.
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As well he should be. I recall seeing an HBO Real Sports with him, and they kept trying to project some kind of depth or thoughtfulness on him. It didn't work. He came across as bland and a complete prisoner to his unconscious impulse to win college football games at any cost. This is a completely unsurprising outcome.
That said, he'll be coaching at Bowling Green within three years.
BG? Pssh. He could very well be the replacement for Brian Kelly at ND in a few years. If not, he has 3 Nattys, a B12 or SEC school desperate for some success will happily throw money at him. Urban and Baylor, match made in hell.
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This is where I am. If I was manager of an employee that abused his wife on two occasions six years apart and I did nothing about it, I would be a bad person but I certainly wouldn't expect to be fired or even disciplined for it by my employer. But if one of my employees told me he witnessed another of my employees committing a heinous act against a child on company premises and I did not take every appropriate step to report and follow it through, I certainly would expect punishment from my company. Personally I expect I would do the right thing in each case, but I'm a lot more sure I would in the JoPa situation than the Urban Meyer situation.
Agree to disagree, I think you should be punished in both circumstances. Further it's an imperfect anology simply because, while we can say Paterno could and should have done more, he did report up the correct channels for the one incident we absolutely know he knew about. In the Urban scenario, there are three possible scenarios A) By some improbable set of circumstances he didn't know of the 2015 incidencts B) He knew and he didn't report C) He knew, he reported and then participated in a cover up. Only in scenario C is Urban at the same "level" as Paterno, in which case I agree Urban was less evil than Paterno if we want to characterize it that way.
My whole point in removing which a$$hole was more evil is to get at the fact that the crime almost doesn't matter, it's the fact that people still think it's ok to look the other way.
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So apparently he has a $38M buyout of his contract if he is fired for anything but misconduct. However he can be fired "for cause" for not reporting a known Title IX violation. That includes "(including, but not limited to, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual exploitation, intimate violence and stalking) that involve any student, faculty, or staff."
And "a “known violation” shall mean a violation or an allegation of a violation of Title IX that Coach is aware of or has reasonable cause to believe is taking place or may have taken place."
So he really is f*cked here.
#hegowne
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Agree to disagree, I think you should be punished in both circumstances. Further it's an imperfect anology simply because, while we can say Paterno could and should have done more, he did report up the correct channels for the one incident we absolutely know he knew about. In the Urban scenario, there are three possible scenarios A) By some improbable set of circumstances he didn't know of the 2015 incidencts B) He knew and he didn't report C) He knew, he reported and then participated in a cover up. Only in scenario C is Urban at the same "level" as Paterno, in which case I agree Urban was less evil than Paterno if we want to characterize it that way.
My whole point in removing which a$$hole was more evil is to get at the fact that the crime almost doesn't matter, it's the fact that people still think it's ok to look the other way.
Yeah, I don't think we are far apart. As far as his employer goes, I think there was a moral responsibility in the Meyer case, but both a moral and legal responsibility in the Paterno case. Ohio State is not going to face problems other than PR ones because one of its employees abused his wife on his own time, but Penn State is in a much worse situation if there are repeated illegal acts against children by its employee on it premises.
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Yeah, I don't think we are far apart. As far as his employer goes, I think there was a moral responsibility in the Meyer case, but both a moral and legal responsibility in the Paterno case. Ohio State is not going to face problems other than PR ones because one of its employees abused his wife on his own time, but Penn State is in a much worse situation if there are repeated illegal acts against children by its employee on it premises.
Actually there is a legal responsibility in the Meyer case as well. Title IX requires any university employee who becomes aware of an allegation of domestic violence to report it to the proper authorities at the university. It also requires that any employee accused of domestic violence be investigated and then held accountable if found responsible.
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One thing that hasn't been addressed yet. Title IX lost a lot of its teeth when DeVos rescinded the 2011 Dear Colleague Letter and replaced it with nothing. OSU could make an argument that under the current (lack of) guidance, Meyer had no obligation to report. Of course this all happened before the DCL was rescinded but I have a hard time imagining this Office of Civil Rights coming after them for violating a standard that they rescinded.
A valid thought, but I don't think the existence (or lack) of the DCL is going to matter much. To Meyer, I would be surprised if there wasn't some flimsy language in his contract about reporting crimes or matters that could be detrimental to the University, so he gone. And the fact that OSU undertook an investigation, though be it likely a sham, is essentially an admission that they knew they had a duty to do something.
Look at it this way... which of the states where marijuana is now legal also pardoned all previous marijuana-related crimes when it was legalized. The law at the time governs, and neither SecEd or OCR is going to let a blatant violation get away just because the guidance may be different today... unless they're being run by an OSU grad.
Now if those offices were being run by someone with ties to an OSU rival, say like a Michigan or perhaps, USC... different story.
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-10-2015/Q5gTb2.gif)
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Actually there is a legal responsibility in the Meyer case as well. Title IX requires any university employee who becomes aware of an allegation of domestic violence to report it to the proper authorities at the university. It also requires that any employee accused of domestic violence be investigated and then held accountable if found responsible.
I obviously wasn't aware of this. Seems Big Brotherish to me, but if that is the rule, that is the rule. Something about being required to jeopardize your friend with his employer for activities outside of work doesn't seem right to me, but neither does ignoring domestic violence.
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I obviously wasn't aware of this. Seems Big Brotherish to me, but if that is the rule, that is the rule. Something about being required to jeopardize your friend with his employer for activities outside of work doesn't seem right to me, but neither does ignoring domestic violence.
Yeah but in the college setting, the line between work and life is so blurred as to be inconsequential. If you don't have that language you can easily have a coach look the other way when a player is, for example, beating up his girlfriend or sexually assaulting women off campus, under the heading of "well he didn't do it at the football facility so we're cool" (this is also known as the Baylor corollary).
Also, if I know of a co-worker who is engaged in violent behavior outside of work I'm sure as hell mentioning something to HR.
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Also, if I know of a co-worker who is engaged in violent behavior outside of work I'm sure as hell mentioning something to HR.
What about fight club?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1AfLx8dLTVoHK/source.gif)
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What about fight club?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1AfLx8dLTVoHK/source.gif)
I'm part of the machine, man!
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I obviously wasn't aware of this. Seems Big Brotherish to me, but if that is the rule, that is the rule. Something about being required to jeopardize your friend with his employer for activities outside of work doesn't seem right to me, but neither does ignoring domestic violence.
He's not simply a friend, he's a subordinate employee.
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Wetzel nails it in this column and says what I’ve been saying. How could Meyer be so dumb to be so loyal to his wide receivers coach?
https://sports.yahoo.com/urban-meyers-loyalty-may-prove-downfall-222900080.html
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Yes
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I obviously wasn't aware of this. Seems Big Brotherish to me, but if that is the rule, that is the rule. Something about being required to jeopardize your friend with his employer for activities outside of work doesn't seem right to me, but neither does ignoring domestic violence.
I don't know what to do with this statement. I guess first do you believe in the right of a workplace to want to hire high character individuals and have them maintain a certain standard?
Second, do you believe that you should hire friends if you know you will be put in a position where you may need to terminate them based on character issues?
Not urban myer just anyone in general
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Wetzel nails it in this column and says what I’ve been saying. How could Meyer be so dumb to be so loyal to his wide receivers coach?
https://sports.yahoo.com/urban-meyers-loyalty-may-prove-downfall-222900080.html
Random hypothesis: Perhaps Smith, known as an excellent recruiter, was in charge of arranging the "dirty work" for Meyer on the recruiting trail and knows what's out there and who's out there with info.
A quote that stood out from Meyer: “I was never told about anything … never had a conversation about it.” If his wife only showed him the texts, it may be true that he was never told and never had a conversation about the situation. Technically, he may not have been lying but....Who am I kidding? Of course he was lying! He knew but simply didn't care.
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In today's world, probably fired, but Saban and Meyer are two guys that could have a dead body in the trunk driving around the town and perhaps escape it.
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In today's world, probably fired, but Saban and Meyer are two guys that could have a dead body in the trunk driving around the town and perhaps escape it.
Because driving around with a dead body in the trunk isn't a Title IX violation.
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I don't know what to do with this statement. I guess first do you believe in the right of a workplace to want to hire high character individuals and have them maintain a certain standard?
Second, do you believe that you should hire friends if you know you will be put in a position where you may need to terminate them based on character issues?
Not urban myer just anyone in general
As an employer I want people who are respectful in the workplace and do their job well enough to make me money. If their behavior outside the workplace causes problems for my company, then I would not want them employed.
If a friend of mine engaged in illegal behavior outside the workplace, it should not be my responsibility to report it to my employer. I don't have friends (at least I don't think I do, I'm sure many spouse abusers have friends who would never had thought it possible) who would abuse their spouse, but I'd guess I'd want to get them counseling or something rather than report them to our employer. I would likely have an impossible time retaining a friendship with such a person.
I agree with you that I would not be likely to hire a person with past behavior that could put me in a difficult position unless I was darned near 100% certain that behavior would not be repeated, and I don't know how you could be that certain.
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As an employer I want people who are respectful in the workplace and do their job well enough to make me money. If their behavior outside the workplace causes problems for my company, then I would not want them employed.
If a friend of mine engaged in illegal behavior outside the workplace, it should not be my responsibility to report it to my employer. I don't have friends (at least I don't think I do, I'm sure many spouse abusers have friends who would never had thought it possible) who would abuse their spouse, but I'd guess I'd want to get them counseling or something rather than report them to our employer. I would likely have an impossible time retaining a friendship with such a person.
I agree with you that I would not be likely to hire a person with past behavior that could put me in a difficult position unless I was darned near 100% certain that behavior would not be repeated, and I don't know how you could be that certain.
Here's the question, why would you want to retain a friendship with someone who is A) an abuser and B) unwilling to seek help? Depending on what is going on, people are redeemable for the most part, but unless a friend actively tried to get help for a situation why would I want to retain them as a friend let alone want to continue to work with them?
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The Meyer and Smith quotes today are laughable, I doubt it's a coincidence that Meyer's statement and the Zach Smith interview on ESPN both happened to come out today. I'm no Gene Smith fan, but man these guys are coordinating an effort to make Gene Smith the fall guy here. Which is warranted if Gene Smith did pull Zach Smith off of recruiting in 2015 after the allegation came up. I get that no charges were filed then, but they kept this guy on the coaching staff? Even after they knew his past??
If these quotes, especially from Zach Smith, are taken at face value, then how in the hell did Urban Meyer trust this guy to be on his staff at OSU?
Meyer's quote in his statement that he wasn't prepared at BIG 10 media day? This guy gets paid millions to be prepared to make split second decisions, and he wasn't prepared to answer questions on Smith's firing? Really?
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Zach Smith claiming that Urban isn’t an investigator is actually 100% true! That’s the point. He’s supposed to inform the Title IX officer who is actually a trained investigator.
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Which is warranted if Gene Smith did pull Zach Smith off of recruiting in 2015 after the allegation came up. I get that no charges were filed then, but they kept this guy on the coaching staff? Even after they knew his past??
I would think a lot of coaches would think that getting pulled off recruiting would be a reward, not a punishment.
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Random hypothesis: Perhaps Smith, known as an excellent recruiter, was in charge of arranging the "dirty work" for Meyer on the recruiting trail and knows what's out there and who's out there with info.
A quote that stood out from Meyer: “I was never told about anything … never had a conversation about it.” If his wife only showed him the texts, it may be true that he was never told and never had a conversation about the situation. Technically, he may not have been lying but....Who am I kidding? Of course he was lying! He knew but simply didn't care.
To the former, you're probably not too far off base. As cut-throat as college football is these days, no coach is going to waste time on employing someone who is a distraction (or potential distraction) to the program. So the fact that Smith hung around as long as he did meant that he was providing some sort of benefit to overcome the (non-monetary) cost of keeping him around.
Not to say that Smith was Meyer's capo on the recruiting trail or that Smith had pictures of Mrs. Meyer, but something the hell was going on that Meyer decided to keep a known abuser on his staff, and it sure as shiite wasn't "loyalty" or some garbage like that.
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Meyer suspended without pay for 3 games. Oregon State, Rutgers and TCU.
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I wonder if the Twitter gossip earlier was true - president vs BOT/Meyer
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Meyer suspended without pay for 3 games. Oregon State, Rutgers and TCU.
Strictly CYA for OHio State. Does anyone really think Urban cares how many women are beat up as long as he can win games?
Meyer and OSU are the perfect example of why college sports is so dirty.
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Meyer vehemently argued against a suspension of any length cause he feels he’s already been punished and should be fine with “time served”. What a royal POS he is. Surprised he didn’t fake a heart attack to get his way.
He’s also hiding behind the tried and true “I don’t know him all that well” lie
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https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1032441336421593091
So far Ohio State administrators have apologized three times to "Buckeye Nation" and zero times to Courtney Smith or her children.
The comments from Buckeye fans so far are just heinous. As with most things these days, people say the right thing when it doesn't impact them, but as soon as it does they do whatever is best for themselves.
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What a tone deaf press conference, not surprising, but man was that bad.
Clear as day, Urban Meyer is a compulsive liar. The Wolken info that came out about Meyer deleting all text messages beyond a year old...things that make you go hmm.
College sports is sooooo dirty.
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deleted text messages, emails...he learned from one of the best, eyn'er? hey! he didn't by any chance have his server in the men's room part of the locker room did he? great minds think alike, eyeyeyn'er hey?
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deleted text messages, emails...he learned from one of the best, eyn'er? hey! he didn't by any chance have his server in the men's room part of the locker room did he? great minds think alike, eyeyeyn'er hey?
Seriously?
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I quit taking seriously anything RS posted ages ago. UBU, RS.
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Best part, and by that I mean the worst, is that two allegations of domestic abuse are not red flags to trigger a reporting need in the minds of the BOT.....if I'm the OSU compliance department I'm pissed this morning
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deleted text messages, emails...he learned from one of the best, eyn'er? hey! he didn't by any chance have his server in the men's room part of the locker room did he? great minds think alike, eyeyeyn'er hey?
🙄🙄🙄
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The comments from Buckeye fans so far are just heinous. As with most things these days, people say the right thing when it doesn't impact them, but as soon as it does they do whatever is best for themselves.
Imagine their comments if this were happening at Michigan.
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https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1032441336421593091
So far Ohio State administrators have apologized three times to "Buckeye Nation" and zero times to Courtney Smith or her children.
The comments from Buckeye fans so far are just heinous. As with most things these days, people say the right thing when it doesn't impact them, but as soon as it does they do whatever is best for themselves.
My god those responses are horrid. Everyone just out to get a good guy like Urban. Her own mom says she’s crazy guys, come on!
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deleted text messages, emails...he learned from one of the best, eyn'er? hey! he didn't by any chance have his server in the men's room part of the locker room did he? great minds think alike, eyeyeyn'er hey?
LET IT GO. MOVE ON
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LET IT GO. MOVE ON
And now the trap has been set.
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My bar and that of a Dean at a B1G powerhouse are quite different.
I guess I should have said that my bar and that of a BOT at at B1G are quite different.
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Best part, and by that I mean the worst, is that two allegations of domestic abuse are not red flags to trigger a reporting need in the minds of the BOT.....if I'm the OSU compliance department I'm pissed this morning
As someone who works in compliance, they have nothing to worry about under this administration. DeVos made Title IX virtually toothless.
I'd like to believe that they would be held accountable in the court of public opinion but winning football games trumps all.
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Seriously?
Interesting that the guys who are always the first to whine to the mods about politics have no qualms about doing the same themselves.
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https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1032441336421593091
So far Ohio State administrators have apologized three times to "Buckeye Nation" and zero times to Courtney Smith or her children.
I guess they would have to mention her name first in order to apologize.
My other reaction was surprise (ha ha ha) that OSU refused to release their report until AFTER the press conference. Don't want to subject Urban to any pesky questions about why he actively lied ("mislead" in his own terms) about refusing to report a man who he knew was assaulting a woman.
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Interesting that the guys who are always the first to whine to the mods about politics have no qualms about doing the same themselves.
Yo cop hater! If you have any proof of this, I’d like to see it-never ever messaged mods about anything although I came pretty damn close after reading some of the posts in the CEO thread. If not for zig interrupting ya’lls little circle jerk, I woulda thought they lifted the “no politics” ban
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Yo cop hater! If you have any proof of this, I’d like to see it-never ever messaged mods about anything although I came pretty damn close after reading some of the posts in the CEO thread. If not for zig interrupting ya’lls little circle jerk, I woulda thought they lifted the “no politics” ban
Classy and sophisticated, as always.
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Yo cop hater! If you have any proof of this, I’d like to see it-never ever messaged mods about anything although I came pretty damn close after reading some of the posts in the CEO thread. If not for zig interrupting ya’lls little circle jerk, I woulda thought they lifted the “no politics” ban
You blatantly made a political statement not even remotely close to on-topic. But of course you whine about someone else.
You may be the least self-aware person here. And that's really saying something.
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Yo cop hater! If you have any proof of this, I’d like to see it-never ever messaged mods about anything although I came pretty damn close after reading some of the posts in the CEO thread. If not for zig interrupting ya’lls little circle jerk, I woulda thought they lifted the “no politics” ban
Subjecting yourself to different points of view is scary and dangerous. You should stick to your safe echo chamber. Obviously a thread where people maturely and respectfully discuss a topic is too much for you.
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You blatantly made a political statement not even remotely close to on-topic. But of course you whine about someone else.
You may be the least self-aware person here. And that's really saying something.
You could be talking about 20 different people, here. Well, 6 actual people and 14 chicobrandyloops.
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You could be talking about 20 different people, here. Well, 6 actual people and 14 chicobrandyloops.
And maybe half a Benny.
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Imagine their comments if this were happening at Michigan.
True dat.
This thing stinks, stinks, stinks.
I now have three favorite college football teams:
1. Notre Dame's opponent any given week (always).
2. Alabama's opponent any given week.
3. Ohio State's opponent any given week.
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Well the good news is, we have a definitive societal outrage rankings:
1. Bunch of kids assaulted
2. Kid assaulted
3. Anything the president tweets
4. Discontinuation of condiments at a fast food restaurant
5. #MeToo advocate assaulting someone themselves
6. Laurel vs Yani
7. Was the dress white and gold?
8.Harvey Weinstein
9. Socialism
10. Millennials
11. Elon Musk
12. A battered spouse
.
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98. A state employee being accused of DV multiple times, cited for DUI, racking up $600 at a strip club on the university's tab on a recruiting visit, multiple times missing scheduled recruit visits but claiming they were completed and none of it resulting in a firing.