MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: real chili 83 on April 23, 2023, 08:16:10 AM
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https://news.yahoo.com/leadership-genius-texas-m-coach-143300459.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMXUaFxmXwYuP430nzffC0Nw0tRJOn_6IH5RYvIy4_QxEopq4F2U2QoFnOhorxgtVU6l1PtVgSxm4vV-Jx7blo8EbkzLbjhijzg5O9M3b_NsTa1KLqqOEi1lDMwAZ1hmJeRTfdSk5kvazKzuQYRgNXqxUeRZa6mFoaiUxYrixiM1
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https://news.yahoo.com/leadership-genius-texas-m-coach-143300459.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMXUaFxmXwYuP430nzffC0Nw0tRJOn_6IH5RYvIy4_QxEopq4F2U2QoFnOhorxgtVU6l1PtVgSxm4vV-Jx7blo8EbkzLbjhijzg5O9M3b_NsTa1KLqqOEi1lDMwAZ1hmJeRTfdSk5kvazKzuQYRgNXqxUeRZa6mFoaiUxYrixiM1
Excellent article. Both coaches have shown ability to succeed at multiple programs with innovation. Thanks for posting.
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The fact Buzz say he has way more “football friends” than “basketball friends” speaks volumes. It’s like how you always have to beware the girl who exclusively hangs out with guys.
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The fact that he’s friends with PJ Fleck speaks volumes.
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The fact that he’s friends with PJ Fleck speaks volumes.
Amen.
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The best description of Buzz: tiresome.
Both he and the threads about him (and Joey, as well). They should form a top-secret quitters club.
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Once a downhome lonesome cowboy, always one. And a phony one at that
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Once a downhome lonesome cowboy, always one. And a phony one at that
but that Elite 8 is a keeper, right?
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The fact Buzz say he has way more “football friends” than “basketball friends” speaks volumes. It’s like how you always have to beware the girl who exclusively hangs out with guys.
;D
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My favorite part was Buzz saying at first he wasn’t sure if Fleck was authentic.
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Nice article about our accomplished and interesting former coach.
Not surprising we have unaccomplished and uninteresting people taking shots at him. Scoop.
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Nice article about our accomplished and interesting former coach.
Not surprising we have unaccomplished and uninteresting people taking shots at him. Scoop.
Buzz is an ass, incredibly phony, and left Marquette with absolutely nothing while trashing the conference on national television. Who cares more about his own press clippings than the program he’s at.
Sure he had some great moments at Marquette but his true colors showed when he wore that Virginia Tech pin for everyone to see.
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More importantly, any updates on Buzz’s flushing habits?
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Nice article about our accomplished and interesting former coach.
Not surprising we have unaccomplished and uninteresting people taking shots at him. Scoop.
Good news is that, if he’s ever feeling down, he can always come to Scoop and find his lap dogs here too.
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Great of Buzz to participate in Barb’s retirement.
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Sure he had some great moments at Marquette but his true colors showed when he wore that Virginia Tech pin for everyone to see.
Not only that, but he did it to a program that took a chance on him when he was an absolute zero. I’ll never understand how a coach can become that arrogant in the span of six years.
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Good news is that, if he’s ever feeling down, he can always come to Scoop and find his lap dogs here too.
More good news! If he ever misses pedantic ass wipes, he can come to Scoop and read your post history!!
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Not only that, but he did it to a program that took a chance on him when he was an absolute zero. I’ll never understand how a coach can become that arrogant in the span of six years.
it’s called winning. People on here trashing him now were kissing his ass then. Is this lost on you?
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More good news! If he ever misses pedantic ass wipes, he can come to Scoop and read your post history!!
Who's a good boy Lenny!?! Who's a good boy!?! Is it you???
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Not only that, but he did it to a program that took a chance on him when he was an absolute zero. I’ll never understand how a coach can become that arrogant in the span of six years.
Buzz always liked to talk about how character was something that was revealed, so what you saw when he left was probably always there, but time coupled with success just made it more evident.
Buzz is a good coach and good recruiter, but he has a tendency to skirt the lines. That's what got Monarch fired and Buzz suspended. And considering the landscape at the time with the Penn State sanctions, Marquette was moving in the direction of cutting ties with Buzz years before he ultimately left. See this Paint Touches (https://painttouches.com/2012/08/25/character-revealed/) article from 2012. It even referenced Gary Parrish, who was somewhat an unofficial Buzz Williams mouthpiece at the time, to talk about Marquette's actions being the kind of things that would inspire a coach like Buzz to look for other jobs.
Despite the on-court success, Marquette's administration didn't like how the program was being run and took actions to change that. Buzz didn't like those changes so he left for a lesser job. I would think that at this point, we can all agree that the Buzz era was a ton of fun despite the off-court chaos, both the headlines and the shifting conference landscape, but we are now in a better place and can move forward while just relegating the Buzz era to memories.
Wait...that's silly...this is Scoop. We'll never agree.
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Nice article about our accomplished and interesting former coach.
Not surprising we have unaccomplished and uninteresting people taking shots at him. Scoop.
Wasn't Buzz's motto Character Revealed?
Crean and Wojo have been nothing but complimentary of Marquette since they left. Buzz couldn't wait to take shots the second he was out the door. As was mentioned Buzz was the only one who didn't record a video for Barb's retirement.
Character Revealed.
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Damn brew beat me to it.
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I think the Buzz era was good for both parties. Buzz went from an assistant with a rough head coaching year to a coach in high demand. MU made it to the second weekend 3 years in a row and produced a number of NBA guys.
I also think the relationship had run its course and best for both to move on.
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Buzz always liked to talk about how character was something that was revealed, so what you saw when he left was probably always there, but time coupled with success just made it more evident.
Buzz is a good coach and good recruiter, but he has a tendency to skirt the lines. That's what got Monarch fired and Buzz suspended. And considering the landscape at the time with the Penn State sanctions, Marquette was moving in the direction of cutting ties with Buzz years before he ultimately left. See this Paint Touches (https://painttouches.com/2012/08/25/character-revealed/) article from 2012. It even referenced Gary Parrish, who was somewhat an unofficial Buzz Williams mouthpiece at the time, to talk about Marquette's actions being the kind of things that would inspire a coach like Buzz to look for other jobs.
Despite the on-court success, Marquette's administration didn't like how the program was being run and took actions to change that. Buzz didn't like those changes so he left for a lesser job. I would think that at this point, we can all agree that the Buzz era was a ton of fun despite the off-court chaos, both the headlines and the shifting conference landscape, but we are now in a better place and can move forward while just relegating the Buzz era to memories.
Wait...that's silly...this is Scoop. We'll never agree.
Great post, brew.
I appreciated what Crean did to revive the program, loved the 2003 team, and enjoyed several other seasons under his watch. I liked the swagger that Buzz brought, enjoyed watching the juco players and several HS players he recruited, and took pride in the repeated NCAA tournament success under his watch.
I hated the way each left -- each basically insulted Marquette on his way out the door -- but I had no problem at all rooting for their teams when they were coaching for our alma mater.
Glad we have Shaka now. I don't think it'll end for him at Marquette the way it did for Crean and Williams. But crap happens, so who knows?
Anyhoo, it's sure fun that we get to relitigate all this for years and years and years.
And years.
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I’m glad Buzz is gone. He had lots of on court success, but he was and is an arrogant jag. And the teams off court issues should not be tolerated at MU … and they weren’t.
And … yes… as for past coaches…
Crean and Wojo have been very complimentary of MU. And KO and Deane showed up at the 100th and both said good things ( and stole the show )
Buzz has no character and is one of the most “ fake “ people I’ve ever met.
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Wasn't Buzz's motto Character Revealed?
Crean and Wojo have been nothing but complimentary of Marquette since they left. Buzz couldn't wait to take shots the second he was out the door. As was mentioned Buzz was the only one who didn't record a video for Barb's retirement.
Character Revealed.
If Buzz is holding a grudge against MU for real or perceived grievances that reflects poorly on him. Same goes for some Scoopers attitude toward Buzz.
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If Buzz is holding a grudge against MU for real or perceived grievances that reflects poorly on him. Same goes for some Scoopers attitude toward Buzz.
I have more respect for Wojo than Buzz. If that reflects poorly on me so be it.
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I have more respect for Wojo than Buzz. If that reflects poorly on me so be it.
As a man, or as a coach?
I think, and most people would agree with you.
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As a man, or as a coach?
I think, and most people would agree with you.
I'll give Buzz the nod on Xs and Os and that's it.
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As was mentioned Buzz was the only one who didn't record a video for Barb's retirement.
Character Revealed.
Definitely. Considering all the crap she has put up with from every coach, himself included, the fact he couldn't tape a 30 second video to congratulate her on retirement is telling.
It's the very lowest bar to clear. Doesn't have to be about MU at all. But he couldn't bring himself to do it. Sad.
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Definitely. Considering all the crap she has put up with from every coach, himself included, the fact he couldn't tape a 30 second video to congratulate her on retirement is telling.
It's the very lowest bar to clear. Doesn't have to be about MU at all. But he couldn't bring himself to do it. Sad.
I'm sure she was one of his 180 letters that month.
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Buzz and LW.
That was a fun combo.
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Buzz is who he always was. When he is winning for your team he is fun and quirky. When he isn't, he is annoying and self serving. Just like an ex.
I moved on from all my exes.
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I moved on from all my exes.
And, no doubt, all of your axes!
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And, no doubt, all of your axes!
It's Scoop, we never move on from and axe that's there to grind.
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And, no doubt, all of your axes!
Instead of making holes in walls, I make holes in the sod/turf/grass.
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During his 6 years as head coach at MU, Buzz went to more Sweet 16s (3) than Hank, Majerus, Dukiet, Kevin, Deane, Crean and Wojo did COMBINED in their tenures at Marquette.
Some of you guys who demand purity in your coaches are going to be disappointed more often than not. Buzz was hired to do 2 things------win lots of basketball games and keep the cash register ringing in the athletic department. He did both.
While I wish that he would have kept his mouth shut as he was walking out the door, he checked off all of the boxes while he was here, IMO.
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Buzz was the second best coach in MU history, IMO and Shaka will likely pass him. While I was disappointed on how his time at MU ended, such is life. I actually was amused by his quirks and found it to be entertaining. I have zero reason to have anything but positive feelings about Buzz and his time at MU.
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I harbor no grudge toward Buzz. I enjoyed him while he was at MU.
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During his 6 years as head coach at MU, Buzz went to more Sweet 16s (3) than Hank, Majerus, Dukiet, Kevin, Deane, Crean and Wojo did COMBINED in their tenures at Marquette.
Some of you guys who demand purity in your coaches are going to be disappointed more often than not. Buzz was hired to do 2 things------win lots of basketball games and keep the cash register ringing in the athletic department. He did both.
While I wish that he would have kept his mouth shut as he was walking out the door, he checked off all of the boxes while he was here, IMO.
Hard to argue with that. 2011-13 was a fun time to be a Marquette hoops fan, and most saying otherwise now weren't saying boo back then.
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Some of you guys who demand purity in your coaches are going to be disappointed more often than not. Buzz was hired to do 2 things------win lots of basketball games and keep the cash register ringing in the athletic department. He did both.
While I wish that he would have kept his mouth shut as he was walking out the door, he checked off all of the boxes while he was here, IMO.
There might only be two boxes elsewhere, but that's never how it has worked at MU.
I don't need purity, but I also don't need sexual assault cases involving the men's basketball program.
MU gave Buzz is big shot, and he gave us a nice run of success on the court. But you can't gloss over the other stuff completely. It was a black mark on his tenure here.
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I’m glad Buzz is gone. He had lots of on court success, but he was and is an arrogant jag. And the teams off court issues should not be tolerated at MU … and they weren’t.
And … yes… as for past coaches…
Crean and Wojo have been very complimentary of MU. And KO and Deane showed up at the 100th and both said good things ( and stole the show )
Buzz has no character and is one of the most “ fake “ people I’ve ever met.
… How much time did you spend with Buzz? Sounds like you know him or spent a lot of time around him and the program?
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I loved Buzz. Didn't like the way he left but that was a fun ride when he was at MU. Some of my favorite players during his tenure too....Jae Crowder, JFB, Davante Gardner
I thought it was specific to Crean before, but I guess sour grapes over former MU coaches never stops
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Crean sucks
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Buzz’s character was revealed into the latter half of his coaching tenure at Marquette. He is all but a facade with a Buzz first mentality.
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I don't need purity, but I also don't need sexual assault cases involving the men's basketball program.
And Buzz's improper meddling into said cases.
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And Buzz's improper meddling into said cases.
for those of us not aware of the facts around that, please share
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for those of us not aware of the facts around that, please share
+1
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"Improper meddling" is an over-statement.
Not appropriately carrying out his responsibilities as an employee during a Title IX investigation is more accurate.
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There might only be two boxes elsewhere, but that's never how it has worked at MU.
I don't need purity, but I also don't need sexual assault cases involving the men's basketball program.
MU gave Buzz is big shot, and he gave us a nice run of success on the court. But you can't gloss over the other stuff completely. It was a black mark on his tenure here.
This.
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"Improper meddling" is an over-statement.
Not appropriately carrying out his responsibilities as an employee during a Title IX investigation is more accurate.
Two of his bosses were axed for this but Buzz wasn't (nor was he suspended). Why? The official MU process was obsolete and did not follow Obama's recent memorandum guidelines. The university process was in fact adjudicated, people forget. The problem was MU didn't follow the federal guidelines. It's why the university paid so much.
Believe me, Williams and Pilarz were looking for every legal reason to fire Buzz. Instead, they got axed too.
What a mess.
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Two of his bosses were axed for this but Buzz wasn't (nor was he suspended). Why? The official MU process was obsolete and did not follow Obama's recent memorandum guidelines. The university process was in fact adjudicated, people forget. The problem was MU didn't follow the federal guidelines. It's why the university paid so much.
Believe me, Williams and Pilarz were looking for every legal reason to fire Buzz. Instead, they got axed too.
What a mess.
I thought you were talking about Cottingham.
Anyway, the responsibilities even under the policy in place were clear - and he allegedly violated them.
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I thought you were talking about Cottingham.
Anyway, the responsibilities even under the policy in place were clear - and he allegedly violated them.
Cottingham and Klieban (who took paid "retirement").
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Who's a good boy Lenny!?! Who's a good boy!?! Is it you???
LOL!
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Jack Carson played our former skipper in "Two Guys from Milwaukee"
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039053/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_st_sm
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Are we sure Buzz was asked to do a video for Barb? MU may want as much to do with Buzz as they do with Jimmy. They're two peas in a pod.
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for those of us not aware of the facts around that, please share
There was a sexual assault involving multiple members of the team (won't go into those details). Buzz brought the entire team out to his house for a dinner and to get the entire team on the same page. He even had a member that was not involved in the assault text the victim to get their side of the story. Really crappy stuff all around. Other employees took the fall. That's how it goes in big time athletics. See MSU, PSU. MU was heading that direction. Thankfully MU "messed with happy" enough that the route corrected itself.
This was not the first incident of this type (regarding the sexual assault, not how it was handled), and it would not have been the last if Buzz was still around.
One of his signings is sitting in jail after being convicted of rape. The "final straw" in "messing with happy" was not letting a recruit into Marquette after he tried to light a girl's hair on fire with a bunson burner in science class (to the point the fire department had to come out to the high school). The kid ended up being kicked out of Kansas State.
Buzz loved to tell everyone he was a father figure to these broken kids he coached. The reality was, he'd be that if they helped him win basketball games. The epitome of Buzz was the game at West Virginia when he suspended half of the team for one half, and the other half of the team for the other half. He claimed it was "tough love" and the team had to learn that actions have consequences. The reality was the true message is, "I'll punish you only up to the point where I still have a chance to win a basketball game."
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"Improper meddling" is an over-statement.
Not appropriately carrying out his responsibilities as an employee during a Title IX investigation is more accurate.
i’m not trying to bust on you…and I’m not pro or against Buzz…but you can’t say Buzz didn’t carry out his responsibilities as an employee during a title IX investigation unless you know this as fact, just like you can’t say he improperly meddled unless you know that as fact. I’m sure we agree, however, that Buzz would appear to be an odd dude.
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i’m not trying to bust on you…and I’m not pro or against Buzz…but you can’t say Buzz didn’t carry out his responsibilities as an employee during a title IX investigation unless you know this as fact, just like you can’t say he improperly meddled unless you know that as fact. I’m sure we agree, however, that Buzz would appear to be an odd dude.
Fine. "According to what I heard...."
Which is the exact same story that withoutbias just shared. And I don't think we heard them from the same sources.
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I think you guys are in some very dangerous territory here and you should probably knock it off. When attributing felonious conduct to someone, don't start a sentence with "from what I heard".
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I think you guys are in some very dangerous territory here and you should probably knock it off. When attributing felonious conduct to someone, don't start a sentence with "from what I heard".
Just go back and look at what was written at the time.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html
It goes into detail what the sexual assault involved, what acts the victims reported being forced to do, what the athletes did to prevent the victims from leaving. It also talks about an inappropriate meeting the coaches had with the athletes within hours of the events.
This whole "from what I heard" are things people heard not just from rumors, but from major reporting outlets with sources. It includes quotes from the victims, Marquette police, and then-acting Athletic Director Mike Broeker.
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Just go back and look at what was written at the time.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-marquette-sex-cases-20111028-story.html
It goes into detail what the sexual assault involved, what acts the victims reported being forced to do, what the athletes did to prevent the victims from leaving. It also talks about an inappropriate meeting the coaches had with the athletes within hours of the events.
This whole "from what I heard" are things people heard not just from rumors, but from major reporting outlets with sources. It includes quotes from the victims, Marquette police, and then-acting Athletic Director Mike Broeker.
Right. There is nothing "dangerous" about what was posted. It's known information. People just remember what they want to remember.
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Like I said earlier, between the sexual assault story, the recruiting violations that got Monarch fired and Buzz suspended, and other negative headlines that were showing up too frequently for Admin's liking, they tried to install guardrails against these things from continuing. Buzz didn't like the guardrails and decided he would rather go to Virginia Tech than continue at Marquette.
We are in a better place now. Like Buzz did, it's best to move on, because dragging this up isn't something that will ever go well, especially not for Buzz defenders, and especially not in light of the differences between the world we live in now and how these things were handled a decade ago.
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There was a sexual assault involving multiple members of the team (won't go into those details). Buzz brought the entire team out to his house for a dinner and to get the entire team on the same page. He even had a member that was not involved in the assault text the victim to get their side of the story. Really crappy stuff all around. Other employees took the fall. That's how it goes in big time athletics. See MSU, PSU. MU was heading that direction. Thankfully MU "messed with happy" enough that the route corrected itself.
This was not the first incident of this type (regarding the sexual assault, not how it was handled), and it would not have been the last if Buzz was still around.
One of his signings is sitting in jail after being convicted of rape. The "final straw" in "messing with happy" was not letting a recruit into Marquette after he tried to light a girl's hair on fire with a bunson burner in science class (to the point the fire department had to come out to the high school). The kid ended up being kicked out of Kansas State.
Buzz loved to tell everyone he was a father figure to these broken kids he coached. The reality was, he'd be that if they helped him win basketball games. The epitome of Buzz was the game at West Virginia when he suspended half of the team for one half, and the other half of the team for the other half. He claimed it was "tough love" and the team had to learn that actions have consequences. The reality was the true message is, "I'll punish you only up to the point where I still have a chance to win a basketball game."
read my comment to Sultan
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Buzz wasn’t arrogant at all, I think that’s being confused with his general social awkwardness.
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I think you guys are in some very dangerous territory here and you should probably knock it off. When attributing felonious conduct to someone, don't start a sentence with "from what I heard".
read my comment to Sultan
Yeah you guys should probably open your eyes a little.
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read my comment to Sultan
The Tribune doesn't go into detail about the meeting, but it was pretty well known around campus. This is from the Tribune article and their talks with Broeker:
Mike Broeker, acting athletic director, told the Tribune that coaches met with players after campus security notified the athletic department of the woman's report. Calling it a "severe error in judgment," he said the department is changing how it responds when athletes are in trouble.
It wasn't a mystery that it was basketball players and the head of the coaching staff was Buzz. As Broeker said, the department was changing their response. The reason for that was because the way it was handled was a "severe error in judgment." It isn't Sultan saying Buzz didn't carry out his responsibilities or improperly meddled, it was Marquette's administration saying that to the Chicago Tribune at the time.
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read my comment to Sultan
“Please provide the details.”
Details are provided, including by the Chicago Tribune, quoting the Deputy AD of MU.
“I don’t like the details. Be careful what you claim.”
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And I admit I defended Buzz at the time. I didn't know then what I know now, and I was wrong.
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Let's just be real, the morals and family man persona Buzz puts on is great, but he will easily turn a blind eye. As someone who was on campus during all of this, the stories I heard were terrifying and sad. So glad his ass is gone.
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I think you guys are in some very dangerous territory here and you should probably knock it off. When attributing felonious conduct to someone, don't start a sentence with "from what I heard".
Dick,
I loved the Buzz era at MU. But knowing this other information makes me think that he either made a terrible mistake or he is a complete and utter douche. I’m glad he’s gone if this stuff was happening. Now that you/we are reminded of this incident and have a Chicago Tribune story backing it (that many of us forgot about apparently) just curious if your stance that Buzz had only two responsibilities at MU is maintained. This kind of activity should not be acceptable at our University in my opinion and I hope yours. Lenny, feel free to chime as well as you seem to have forgotten about his behavior (again, like many of us did).
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All I know is that Buzz took these matters so seriously that he had a massive wad of chewing tobacco in his mouth the entire time he was being interviewed by MU’s outside counsel during their investigation, and he spilled his spit cup on the table in front of one of Wisconsin’s most highly regarded attorneys questioning him. He’s an ass.
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All I know is that Buzz took these matters so seriously that he had a massive wad of chewing tobacco in his mouth the entire time he was being interviewed by MU’s outside counsel during their investigation, and he spilled his spit cup on the table in front of one of Wisconsin’s most highly regarded attorneys questioning him. He’s an ass.
Get thee to a fainting couch post haste!
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I will honestly plead ignorance and say that I did not know the extent of the situation when Buzz was here, so guess I'll retract my earlier statement that I "loved Buzz"
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All I know is that Buzz took these matters so seriously that he had a massive wad of chewing tobacco in his mouth the entire time he was being interviewed by MU’s outside counsel during their investigation, and he spilled his spit cup on the table in front of one of Wisconsin’s most highly regarded attorneys questioning him. He’s an ass.
I’ll call your BS. I never met BW, so can’t comment on him good or bad…but your story here is BS.
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Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.
The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.
VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did.
* Was it overblown?
* Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
* Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
* Did they care?
* Should they care?
* Did they look the other way?
* Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
* Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?
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No idea about the Va Tech or TAMU sides, but my guess is they cared more about the end result winning than how they get there.
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Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.
The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.
VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did.
* Was it overblown?
* Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
* Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
* Did they care?
* Should they care?
* Did they look the other way?
* Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
* Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?
I think you hit on it, RC83. Is Buzz a bad dude? Did VT and TAMU know details of this situation, good or bad?
The crowd that goes with ‘I heard stories’…or, ‘he supposedly did this or did that’…the conjecture crowd. Ridiculous.
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Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.
The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.
VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did.
* Was it overblown?
* Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
* Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
* Did they care?
* Should they care?
* Did they look the other way?
* Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
* Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?
I mean look at Chris Beard and Ole Miss. Slick Rick and Louisville. There are other college football coaches, professional athletes, the list goes on and on. People will turn a blind eye for results.
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I think there is a higher tolerance for some of this stuff at the big state schools. Stuff that might fly at Alabama or Texas Tech may not fly at MU or Duke. I don't really know why this is the case.
Of course St John's just hired Rick Pitino, so what do I know....
The bottom line is each school has a different standard. One might be fine if you don't get an NCAA violation/sanctions and don't get caught breaking the law. Others hold a higher standard.
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You guys are right about VT and TAMU probably caring more about results than anything else. But I'm all for second chances. If I were looking at hiring a Buzz Williams after what went down at MU, I'm making it abundantly clear that none of those shenanigans would be tolerated, and I would make sure it's all spelled out in his contract what the consequences are. And they would be severe.
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I think you hit on it, RC83. Is Buzz a bad dude? Did VT and TAMU know details of this situation, good or bad?
The crowd that goes with ‘I heard stories’…or, ‘he supposedly did this or did that’…the conjecture crowd. Ridiculous.
It's not conjecture. It's known, it's publicized, you just don't want to believe it, which is fine. Ignorance is bliss seems to be the residing theme at Scoop.
How anyone would be surprised that other organizations would hire a coach with a bad past is wild to me. Look at Chris Beard. But hey, maybe you believe it's all conjecture and nothing happened there.
The Rockets just hired Ime Udoko. But hey, I'm sure it was all fake news and he's a great guy that did nothing wrong, people just fell for the conjecture and hearsay.
Highly successful people that make people millions and billions of dollars get second and third chances when they do bad things. That's the least surprising thing ever.
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Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.
The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.
VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did.
* Was it overblown?
* Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
* Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
* Did they care?
* Should they care?
* Did they look the other way?
* Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
* Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?
Didn’t Paint Touches have an article after he left on how they met reporters who told them Buzz wanted the Oklahoma? job in 2012, but they were scared off by the assault incident.
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I think you hit on it, RC83. Is Buzz a bad dude? Did VT and TAMU know details of this situation, good or bad?
The crowd that goes with ‘I heard stories’…or, ‘he supposedly did this or did that’…the conjecture crowd. Ridiculous.
It's reported. It's sourced. Broeker is quoted. It's not conjecture.
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It's reported. It's sourced. Broeker is quoted. It's not conjecture.
Life is rarely a set of binary choices, but many like to think so.
After some time goes by new data/new behavior is observed.
In the "real world", anyone a fan of second chance hiring? That can be some of your best hiring...ever.
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Life is rarely a set of binary choices, but many like to think so.
After some time goes by new data/new behavior is observed.
In the "real world", anyone a fan of second chance hiring? That can be some of your best hiring...ever.
That's not the point. No one is saying Buzz couldn't run a program better than he did here. But what happened here isn't conjecture or "I heard stories" like Viper alleged. It's reported & documented.
I have no problem with people supporting Buzz getting a second chance. But what happened at Marquette happened. Buzz walked because our administration preferred to let him leave than let him rehab his actions here. When Buzz said "I'll stay as long as they'll have me" he was being honest and that's exactly what happened. And MU was not in the wrong to let him go.
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I think there is an interesting duality to Buzz. He's nowhere as great or as humble as he portrayed himself to be, but he's also not an absolute scumbag POS that some of his actions have shown. I think he's incredibly self-centered and self serving, but that doesn't preclude someone from doing good or great things. Some incredibly charitable or philanthropic people have done great things in the world...concurrent with it being of their best benefit, that doesn't mean that work wasn't meaningful and impactful. I know of many people tangentially related to the program who have very good experiences or things to say about Buzz when he was here. I'm sure tons of parents involved in Buzz's Bunch would rave about him. Did BB serve as a PR vehicle for him? Sure. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't great work that made some people very happy.
The Buzz years were super fun, I enjoyed the program and the team so damn much when he was here, I don't miss him now and couldn't be happier with Shaka and the program's future under him. That's good enough for me and I don't feel the need to further audit his time here or his legacy any further than that.
I wonder how many times he mysteriously appeared before a judge with no court records like Jimmy supposedly did.
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That's not the point. No one is saying Buzz couldn't run a program better than he did here. But what happened here isn't conjecture or "I heard stories" like Viper alleged. It's reported & documented.
I have no problem with people supporting Buzz getting a second chance. But what happened at Marquette happened. Buzz walked because our administration preferred to let him leave than let him rehab his actions here. When Buzz said "I'll stay as long as they'll have me" he was being honest and that's exactly what happened. And MU was not in the wrong to let him go.
Not arguing that. You're probably right...that stuff took place.
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What is being said here is undoubtedly true. I have even heard the basic facts from someone who I would describe as a "Buzz ally." He improperly inserted himself into a Title IX case. Now did he do so because of a coordinated effort to discredit the alleged victim and protect his player? Or was it because he was either improperly trained or just wanted to get more information? Maybe a little of both? That to me is where the rub is here.
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What is being said here is undoubtedly true. I have even heard the basic facts from someone who I would describe as a "Buzz ally." He improperly inserted himself into a Title IX case. Now did he do so because of a coordinated effort to discredit the alleged victim and protect his player? Or was it because he was either improperly trained or just wanted to get more information? Maybe a little of both? That to me is where the rub is here.
Same thing happens with Al & Rick? What do they do? Probably closer to Buzz.
Hank is 100% calling his boss and staying out of it.
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I wonder how many times he mysteriously appeared before a judge with no court records like Jimmy supposedly did.
Huh?
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What is being said here is undoubtedly true. I have even heard the basic facts from someone who I would describe as a "Buzz ally." He improperly inserted himself into a Title IX case. Now did he do so because of a coordinated effort to discredit the alleged victim and protect his player? Or was it because he was either improperly trained or just wanted to get more information? Maybe a little of both? That to me is where the rub is here.
Again, the issue was that Marquette University wasn't following Title IX in regard to Obama sexual assaults order. From the Administration to the Athletic Department to the Dean of Students to MU Police to Gerry Boyle to the basketball coach. They were following the official university (flawed) policy.
The players went through the process (peer review) and were handed down suspensions. MU Police did not alert MPD.
Every article and this history makes it sound like it was all on Buzz (not to excuse him). The university handled this the same way as they would have clergy abuse in those days (and that caught up with Fr. Wild). It was a horrible decision then and the school dearly paid for it. Buzz wasn't sued.
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Again, the issue was that Marquette University wasn't following Title IX in regard to Obama sexual assaults order. From the Administration to the Athletic Department to the Dean of Students to MU Police to Gerry Boyle to the basketball coach. They were following the official university (flawed) policy.
The players went through the process (peer review) and were handed down suspensions. MU Police did not alert MPD.
Every article and this history makes it sound like it was all on Buzz (not to excuse him). The university handled this the same way as they would have clergy abuse in those days (and that caught up with Fr. Wild). It was a horrible decision then and the school dearly paid for it. Buzz wasn't sued.
I understand that they weren't following guidelines. But I have worked in higher education for 30 years, and at no point during my career has "encouraging contact with the alleged victim" been O.K.
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I understand that they weren't following guidelines. But I have worked in higher education for 30 years, and at no point during my career has "encouraging contact with the alleged victim" been O.K.
And, I again never said it was. It's not okay in business either.
My point is this thread (and in media coverage) is very one-sided and puts the entirety of the blame on just one person ("Buzz didn't follow Title IX"). The university effed this up royally. That part continues to get swept under the rug. It was a major fail.
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Same thing happens with Al & Rick? What do they do? Probably closer to Buzz.
Hank is 100% calling his boss and staying out of it.
yup yup
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Same thing happens with Al & Rick? What do they do? Probably closer to Buzz.
Hank is 100% calling his boss and staying out of it.
Different time, different responsibilities.
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If Buzz called his team together and outright directed them to lie or gave them a script that all were to adhere to regarding what happened, then I'd be blasting him worse than some of you guys.
On the other hand, if he gathered the team and told them to STFU until the lawyers showed up, and then to only answer the questions posed to them, I'd congratulate him for standing up for his players the way a good father would stand up for a son who found himself in a similar jam.
I suspect what probably happened was somewhere in the middle, and since I wasn't present, I'm not making any judgments. I don't love Buzz enough to go to the wall for him, but I also have no axe to grind, either.
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If Buzz called his team together and outright directed them to lie or gave them a script that all were to adhere to regarding what happened, then I'd be blasting him worse than some of you guys.
On the other hand, if he gathered the team and told them to STFU until the lawyers showed up, and then to only answer the questions posed to them, I'd congratulate him for standing up for his players the way a good father would stand up for a son who found himself in a similar jam.
I suspect what probably happened was somewhere in the middle, and since I wasn't present, I'm not making any judgments. I don't love Buzz enough to go to the wall for him, but I also have no axe to grind, either.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/l3vRjyAHtYRhL9HPO/giphy.gif)
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If Buzz called his team together and outright directed them to lie or gave them a script that all were to adhere to regarding what happened, then I'd be blasting him worse than some of you guys.
On the other hand, if he gathered the team and told them to STFU until the lawyers showed up, and then to only answer the questions posed to them, I'd congratulate him for standing up for his players the way a good father would stand up for a son who found himself in a similar jam.
I suspect what probably happened was somewhere in the middle, and since I wasn't present, I'm not making any judgments. I don't love Buzz enough to go to the wall for him, but I also have no axe to grind, either.
The Chicago Tribune article backs us what people are saying...if you still chose not be believe because you weren't physically there that's of course your right but is completely laughable.
Quote from the article:
"In addition to mistakes by campus security, Marquette administrators have acknowledged that the athletic department reacted inappropriately to the initial accusation.
The school has publicly criticized an Oct. 31 meeting between coaches and athletes, shortly after the first woman made her allegations. Prosecutors said they had no evidence that coaches intentionally interfered with the investigation but said the gathering offered an opportunity for the athletes to compare stories before detectives had a chance to question them independently.
One athlete sent a text message to the woman during the meeting, asking if she had made a report to security, authorities have said. Another called her with similar questions, according to the police report.
Mike Broeker, acting athletic director, told the Tribune that coaches met with players after campus security notified the athletic department of the woman's report. Calling it a "severe error in judgment," he said the department is changing how it responds when athletes are in trouble."
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And, I again never said it was. It's not okay in business either.
My point is this thread (and in media coverage) is very one-sided and puts the entirety of the blame on just one person ("Buzz didn't follow Title IX"). The university effed this up royally. That part continues to get swept under the rug. It was a major fail.
True. And, it cost a number of them their jobs.
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The Chicago Tribune article backs us what people are saying...if you still chose not be believe because you weren't physically there that's of course your right but is completely laughable.
Quote from the article:
"In addition to mistakes by campus security, Marquette administrators have acknowledged that the athletic department reacted inappropriately to the initial accusation.
The school has publicly criticized an Oct. 31 meeting between coaches and athletes, shortly after the first woman made her allegations. Prosecutors said they had no evidence that coaches intentionally interfered with the investigation but said the gathering offered an opportunity for the athletes to compare stories before detectives had a chance to question them independently.
One athlete sent a text message to the woman during the meeting, asking if she had made a report to security, authorities have said. Another called her with similar questions, according to the police report.
Mike Broeker, acting athletic director, told the Tribune that coaches met with players after campus security notified the athletic department of the woman's report. Calling it a "severe error in judgment," he said the department is changing how it responds when athletes are in trouble."
Thanks for the quote from the Tribune article. I'm particularly interested in 2 of the cites:
"Prosecutors said they had no evidence that coaches intentionally interfered with the investigation.........." and
"Mike Broeker...... .coaches met with players........called it 'a severe error in judgment.........".
So let me summarize. Veteran Milwaukee County Felony prosecutors said the coaches' actions DID NOT impede their investigation. And Broeker thinks ( long after the fact, with the benefit of hindsight), that Buzz used bad judgment.
Now, how you get from that to "Buzz is a POS" and " Buzz is a scumbag douche", I don't know. If I'm ever charged with a crime, try to get yourself struck from my jury-----please.
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Different time, different responsibilities.
strong, Sulton, very strong
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Thanks for the quote from the Tribune article. I'm particularly interested in 2 of the cites:
"Prosecutors said they had no evidence that coaches intentionally interfered with the investigation.........." and
"Mike Broeker...... .coaches met with players........called it 'a severe error in judgment.........".
So let me summarize. Veteran Milwaukee County Felony prosecutors said the coaches' actions DID NOT impede their investigation. And Broeker thinks ( long after the fact, with the benefit of hindsight), that Buzz used bad judgment.
Now, how you get from that to "Buzz is a POS" and " Buzz is a scumbag douche", I don't know. If I'm ever charged with a crime, try to get yourself struck from my jury-----please.
Oy.
I never claimed he interfered with a police investigation, which would be a criminal matter. I claimed he improperly interfered with Marquette's Title IX investigation, which would usually be an automatic dismissal from the University - for cause.
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Oy.
I never claimed he interfered with a police investigation, which would be a criminal matter. I claimed he improperly interfered with Marquette's Title IX investigation, which would usually be an automatic dismissal from the University - for cause.
You and others seem quite confident about all the things Buzz DID regarding this incident. I'm merely pointing out, for those not as intelligent and discerning as you, some things he DIDN'T do.
As far as interfering with Marquette's Title IX investigation, and any automatic dismissal from the University, MU's lawyers must have advised them that that course, too, was unsustainable, because not only was he not immediately dismissed for cause------nor for any other reason--------but he was retained as the head coach, molding young men.
Marquette was capable of F-ing up ( and they did, royally) the Title IX investigation all by itself, without ant help from Brent Williams.
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You and others seem quite confident about all the things Buzz DID regarding this incident. I'm merely pointing out, for those not as intelligent and discerning as you, some things he DIDN'T do.
As far as interfering with Marquette's Title IX investigation, and any automatic dismissal from the University, MU's lawyers must have advised them that that course, too, was unsustainable, because not only was he not immediately dismissed for cause------nor for any other reason--------but he was retained as the head coach, molding young men.
Marquette was capable of F-ing up ( and they did, royally) the Title IX investigation all by itself, without ant help from Brent Williams.
My man. It's literally spelled out in the Chicago Tribune article for you.
The gathering offered an opportunity for the athletes to compare stories before detectives had a chance to question them independently.
One athlete sent a text message to the woman during the meeting, asking if she had made a report to security, authorities have said. Another called her with similar questions, according to the police report.
You can claim all Brent Williams did was get his guys together and told them to lawyer up before talking to anyone. But you're just closing your eyes when more information is publicly available for anyone to see. You keep using this line of "I wasn't there and neither were you." Well, people from within Marquette's own athletic department told a major news publication it happened. We didn't need to be there. They texted and called the victim at this meeting. Seems this was above and beyond, "Hey guys. I'm a father figure to you. I need to tell you to lawyer up before you speak up, as I truly care about you."
But thanks for stopping by, Brent.
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You and others seem quite confident about all the things Buzz DID regarding this incident. I'm merely pointing out, for those not as intelligent and discerning as you, some things he DIDN'T do.
As far as interfering with Marquette's Title IX investigation, and any automatic dismissal from the University, MU's lawyers must have advised them that that course, too, was unsustainable, because not only was he not immediately dismissed for cause------nor for any other reason--------but he was retained as the head coach, molding young men.
Marquette was capable of F-ing up ( and they did, royally) the Title IX investigation all by itself, without ant help from Brent Williams.
I don’t know what’s funnier. Your continued ignorance or your “molding young men” line.
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maybe we should axk jimmy, wes and jae
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I’ll call your BS. I never met BW, so can’t comment on him good or bad…but your story here is BS.
Lol okay. I don’t know why I would make that story up. Also, Buzz would dip during TV interviews… is it really that far fetched?
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Lol okay. I don’t know why I would make that story up. Also, Buzz would dip during TV interviews… is it really that far fetched?
And didn’t flush, either.
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Can we make this thread stop already? Can we be like Buzz and pay somebody to flush it?
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Can we make this thread stop already? Can we be like Buzz and pay somebody to flush it?
No one is forcing you to look at it. And the answer to both of your questions is no. Instead of stopping "this thread", stop looking at it.
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No idea about the Va Tech or TAMU sides, but my guess is they cared more about the end result winning than how they get there.
Previous actions by TAMU's football coach make Buzz look like a saint. Jimbo left FSU much in the way Buzz left Marquette. FSU admin using their best Willy Wonka voice "No, don't, stop".
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maybe we should axk jimmy, wes and jae
maybe we should ask jimmy, wes and jae what they think of old white men using ebonics.
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maybe we should ask jimmy, wes and jae what they think of old white men using ebonics.
Maybe you know who could ask… in all of her “bare-legged, high-heeled, low-necklined glory.”
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Maybe you know who could ask… in all of her “bare-legged, high-heeled, low-necklined glory.”
I doubt she's an expert on Ebonics, either.
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Maybe you know who could ask… in all of her “bare-legged, high-heeled, low-necklined glory.”
Sounds like a sexpot.