MLB Playoffs

[naginiF]

So CITI has plexiglass installed............where is the outrage?  I'm guessing it's because they extended the boxes for the playoffs?  The rich in NY  are more important?  The Pussification of America starts at the coasts and works it's way to the middle?  The NL is the worst?

If other parks have this I've not seen it....

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Harvey showing up big tonight.

Whoops.

[naginiF]

Whoops.

at our KC watch party we all said "welp, got'em" when they left him in. 

[mr.MUskie]

Whoops.

Collins says he'll second-guess Harvey decision 'for a long time'
Dan TomanNov 2 2015, 12:48 AM
When Matt Harvey talked Terry Collins into sending him out for the ninth inning of Game 5 on Sunday, it made for one of the most compelling moments of the postseason.

After watching the Kansas City Royals rally for two runs in the inning en route to their second World Series title in franchise history, Collins' decision to stick with his starter could haunt him for years to come.

"I'm going to second-guess myself for a long time, but I truly believe you've got to support your players once in a while and that kind of heart and that kind of desire is hard to find," the New York Mets manager told Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports after his team's season ended with a 7-2 loss . "I'd have taken him out and we’d allow the runs and it would have been the wrong decision anyway."

Collins, who replaced his ace with Jeurys Familia after the first two batters of the inning reached base, said it was impossible to say no Harvey after all the right-hander had been through this season.

[MU82]

During the last couple months of the season, Harvey's handlers had insisted that he be on a strict pitch count and questioned whether he should even be allowed to pitch in the postseason with his surgically repaired elbow.

So it's kind of ironic that Harvey was able to talk his way into staying on the mound for his 212th inning this season despite having thrown more than 100 pitches already.

This isn't second-guessing. I first-guessed. I'm proud to say that I texted my son before the inning that leaving Harvey in was the wrong thing to do.

Of course, for Collins it was a difficult situation. Familia had hardly looked unhittable against the Royals. Had he blown the game, millions would have second-guessed Collins for not leaving his dominant stud in the game. Harvey would have said he begged to stay in, said he felt great, etc.

At 66 years old, Collins learned something important (or, more likely, had something reinforced): It's the manager's job to put each player on his team in the best position to succeed. Harvey rarely threw anywhere near 100 pitches this season. Letting him go on in such an emotion-charged atmosphere was foolhardy.

[tower912]

If Collins pulls Harvey and the reliever gives up the run, Collins gets second guessed.     Basically, because the run scored, Collins was wrong.    The curse of being the manager.  Well done, Royals. 

[Benny B]

If Collins pulls Harvey and the reliever gives up the run, Collins gets second guessed.     Basically, because the run scored, Collins was wrong.    The curse of being the manager.  Well done, Royals.

This is the reason that pitchers don't bat eighth more often... the manager is going to get questioned either way, and oft times when it works, the players get all of the credit.  IOW, there's no upside to either decision be it batting order or playing/pulling your starter.

[CTWarrior]

If Collins pulls Harvey and the reliever gives up the run, Collins gets second guessed.     Basically, because the run scored, Collins was wrong.    The curse of being the manager.  Well done, Royals.

When you
a - let a player talk you out of what you wanted to do, and
b - that which you wanted to do has been successful all year, and
c - that player's plan costs you the game, then
d - you are going to get rightfully second-guessed.

I was watching with my wife and said, "if it were me, I'd bring Familia in here" before the top of the ninth, but truthfully, I figured the Mets would win either way (Harvey or Familia) so I guess I don't blame Collins too much.  In the end, the players have to make plays.

Since Morris in 91, you've seen pitchers talk themselves into staying in games in the postseason and it seems like it doesn't work.

I think Collins never should have brought in Familia with the big lead in game 3, either.  In my mind, you try to keep guys in the roles they've been in all year.  Familia is used to closing out close games. 
 

[jesmu84]

If Duda makes a somewhat routine throw, there's not much controversy.

[JWags85]

If Duda makes a somewhat routine throw, there's not much controversy.

There is a picture of the ball at the point where it came level with D'Arnaud's glove and Hosmer hadn't even begun his slide.  Basically if Duda had hit the glove, even way on the wrong side of the plate, D'Arnaud pivots and still has Hosmer out easily.

[wadesworld]

Yup, bad throw by Duda.

Collins is at fault for leaving Harvey in 1 batter too long.  There was nothing wrong with sending him back out to start the 9th, but the discussion should've been, "you have until 1 batter reaches base."  Innings, pitch counts, etc. go out the window when it's your last possible start of the season in the WS.  He was still throwing 98 MPH, he had a shutout, and he had dominated the Royals up until then.  Once the leadoff hitter got on base, a warmed up Familia should've come in.

[JWags85]

That was my thought.  When they got the leadoff double and they didn't bring in Familia right away, I was really puzzled.  You could tell even Harvey wasn't completely sure he was going to stay in.  A single or a walk, maybe, but a lined double?  Ridiculous to not go to a great closer there.

[MerrittsMustache]

Yup, bad throw by Duda.

Collins is at fault for leaving Harvey in 1 batter too long.  There was nothing wrong with sending him back out to start the 9th, but the discussion should've been, "you have until 1 batter reaches base."  Innings, pitch counts, etc. go out the window when it's your last possible start of the season in the WS.  He was still throwing 98 MPH, he had a shutout, and he had dominated the Royals up until then.  Once the leadoff hitter got on base, a warmed up Familia should've come in.

I agree with this although I also think it depends on Familia's mindset. Is he a guy who works best when he starts an inning fresh? Is he a guy who works well with the pressure of guys on base? Does it even matter to him? Typically, his role is to start clean and end the game. In this case, he was cleaning up Harvey's mess. Is that the best position for him or are there even other relievers who deal with those situations more often? Familia is not as big a strikeout guy as some relievers so he seems like he might not be a prototypical "get out of a jam" pitcher.

Admittedly, I don't follow the Mets close enough to know these answers so it could be a moot point and Familia might not care, but the top priority of a manager is to put his players in the best possible situation to succeed and I'm not convinced that Collins did that last night.

[drewm88]

That was my thought.  When they got the leadoff double and they didn't bring in Familia right away, I was really puzzled.  You could tell even Harvey wasn't completely sure he was going to stay in.  A single or a walk, maybe, but a lined double?  Ridiculous to not go to a great closer there.

It was a walk followed by a stolen base. The double scored a run and chased Harvey.

[buckchuckler]

Harvey pitched great for 8 innings.  My thought in his AB to Cain, was why on Earth would you throw a 3-2 slider.  He argued his way into the game.  He had dominated with his fastball the entire game.  Challenge him.  Don't try to trick him.  Kind of maddening.


Great game and great series by the Royals.  Just amazing how that team can create runs out of basically nothing.  They are quite the team.  The quantity of comebacks is astounding. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

The royals also played very un royal like. Some bad misplays from Hosmer in the series.

[buckchuckler]

The royals also played very un royal like. Some bad misplays from Hosmer in the series.

2 misplays.  They played very Royal-like in my opinion.  Guys make mistakes.  They didn't let the mistakes get to them, kept the pressure on, ground out every AB, and dominated with their bullpen.  That has been what they've excelled at the last 2 years.  Hosmer is probably their least important player, defensively speaking. 

Their defense was mostly great, Cain and Gordon making every play in the OF, Moose and Escobar making every play on the left side, Perez shutting everything down.  The two flubbed grounders were out of character for sure, but how they played overall and how they responded to the mistakes was very typical of them. 

[naginiF]

I agree with this although I also think it depends on Familia's mindset. Is he a guy who works best when he starts an inning fresh? Is he a guy who works well with the pressure of guys on base? Does it even matter to him? Typically, his role is to start clean and end the game. In this case, he was cleaning up Harvey's mess. Is that the best position for him or are there even other relievers who deal with those situations more often? Familia is not as big a strikeout guy as some relievers so he seems like he might not be a prototypical "get out of a jam" pitcher.

Admittedly, I don't follow the Mets close enough to know these answers so it could be a moot point and Familia might not care, but the top priority of a manager is to put his players in the best possible situation to succeed and I'm not convinced that Collins did that last night.

Letting my kids watch the DVR'ed 8th inning on because they fell asleep last night and Verducci* talked about the preference of closers to have a 'clean' inning to work with when they pulled Harvey.  So you are correct that it's not the ideal situation for Familia to work with. 

edit - where the H was Pete Rose last night?  I really like his role as the antagonist on the panel. 

*Verducci did yeoman's work this series.  His SI articles were incredibly detailed and insightful.  On the back of prepping for the live broadcast he (and his team) had a heck of a week.

[buckchuckler]

Letting my kids watch the DVR'ed 8th inning on because they fell asleep last night and Verducci* talked about the preference of closers to have a 'clean' inning to work with when they pulled Harvey.  So you are correct that it's not the ideal situation for Familia to work with. 

edit - where the H was Pete Rose last night?  I really like his role as the antagonist on the panel. 

*Verducci did yeoman's work this series.  His SI articles were incredibly detailed and insightful.  On the back of prepping for the live broadcast he (and his team) had a heck of a week.

He left to do an autograph signing in vegas.  That is real, not a smarmy joke. 

[naginiF]

He left to do an autograph signing in vegas.  That is real, not a smarmy joke.

that's perfect.  it completes his transition to a character of himself.

[naginiF]

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/65936/the-way-too-early-2016-power-rankings
Looks like I'll be having some spirited interactions in 11 months from now.  I hope they sign Price and exposing his 'tip' on his change up isn't an issue in 16. 

[CTWarrior]

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/65936/the-way-too-early-2016-power-rankings
Looks like I'll be having some spirited interactions in 11 months from now.  I hope they sign Price and exposing his 'tip' on his change up isn't an issue in 16. 

I think a lot of teams will be in on Price and Grienke.   Many teams with deep pockets are looking for pitching this winter.  I would love to be their agents about now.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I think a lot of teams will be in on Price and Grienke.   Many teams with deep pockets are looking for pitching this winter.  I would love to be their agents about now.

I don't think the Cubs will be in on Price at his expected rate, especially one year after signing Lester and with the possibility of an Arrieta extension on the horizon.  I see a trade for a cost-controlled younger pitcher as more likely combined with signing more of a mid-tier SP. 

[buckchuckler]

I don't think the Cubs will be in on Price at his expected rate, especially one year after signing Lester and with the possibility of an Arrieta extension on the horizon.  I see a trade for a cost-controlled younger pitcher as more likely combined with signing more of a mid-tier SP.

It'll be interesting.  I think getting one of those guys is something that would be great for the cubs.  The catch, though, is trading guys that are going to hurt.  Theo has seemed unwilling to do that, they had several opportunities to trade for Hamels, and wouldn't do it.  I wouldn't think Castro will get you someone like Sonny Gray, Jose Quintana, Chris Archer, or even Tyson Ross.  Are they going to be willing to part with Schwarber, Baez, Soler, Torres, Contreras or McKinney.  Other than Schwarber, I don't think any of these guys alone net them the pitcher they'd want. 

It took Jason Heyward to get Shelby Miller. 

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

It'll be interesting.  I think getting one of those guys is something that would be great for the cubs.  The catch, though, is trading guys that are going to hurt.  Theo has seemed unwilling to do that, they had several opportunities to trade for Hamels, and wouldn't do it.  I wouldn't think Castro will get you someone like Sonny Gray, Jose Quintana, Chris Archer, or even Tyson Ross.  Are they going to be willing to part with Schwarber, Baez, Soler, Torres, Contreras or McKinney.  Other than Schwarber, I don't think any of these guys alone net them the pitcher they'd want. 

It took Jason Heyward to get Shelby Miller.

I honestly think they should trade Baez. Castro is fine at 2nd and he's still only going to be 26 next season.