MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: cheebs09 on February 10, 2015, 10:41:10 PM
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Tonight was super frustrating, but I'm very optimistic about Wojo. This game showed how limited our options are on offense. However, our defense has gone from very bad at the start of the year to a very tough defense. This is while our offense has not been very good this year, and being an undersized team. I think as the talent improves with his recruiting (yes, even after some letdowns lately, I still am excited by star ratings), the offense will improve. Also, we are getting some good looks, but just can't finish. Defense is mostly about positioning and hustle, and I feel like Wojo is doing a very nice job of coaching these guys up.
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Tonight was super frustrating, but I'm very optimistic about Wojo. This game showed how limited our options are on offense. However, our defense has gone from very bad at the start of the year to a very tough defense. This is while our offense has not been very good this year, and being an undersized team. I think as the talent improves with his recruiting (yes, even after some letdowns lately, I still am excited by star ratings), the offense will improve. Also, we are getting some good looks, but just can't finish. Defense is mostly about positioning and hustle, and I feel like Wojo is doing a very nice job of coaching these guys up.
Some here are going to jump all over you.......
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Nowhere to go, but up, right?
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Hard to know how good of a coach Wojo is. He has nothing to work with. This team is practically talentless. Would any MU players start for a ranked team? Heck, would any of them get off the bench for a ranked team? No and maybe.
Hard to get too upset over a team I expected nothing from. Just glad MU is one game closer to ending its season. The players appear to be trying hard...but that only gets you so far. Still need to have talent.
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It's much easier to coach up defense than to coach up offense (mind you, neither would be considered "easy"). Like you mentioned, defense is primarily positioning and hustle. Wojo recognized that early, obviously stressed that in practice and this team has become very good defensively. The only way they're going to stay in a lot of these contests is to ugly it up.
Offensively, they are what they are. Carlino is far and away the team's best offensive player but he can be inefficient and is ideally suited to be a 3rd option. Derrick's scoring ability is inept. Juan and Steve are not capable of creating their own shots. JJJ is an inefficient/volume scorer (so it's difficult to play him alongside Carlino). Duane and Luke are learning on the job. Sandy is a spot-up shooter who seems to be hitting the "freshman wall." That's it. There's only so much you can do with that.
I really think that Duane, Luke and Sandy will raise their offensive games significantly next season and I'm hopeful than JJJ can become more efficient. Regardless, those players have raised their games defensively already which will no doubt benefit the team going forward.
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It's much easier to coach up defense than to coach up offense (mind you, neither would be considered "easy"). Like you mentioned, defense is primarily positions and hustle. Wojo recognized that early, obviously stressed that in practice and this team has become very good defensively. The only way they're going to stay in a lot of these contests is to ugly it up.
Offensively, they are what they are. Carlino is far and away the team's best offensive player but he can be inefficient and is ideally suited to be a 3rd option. Derrick's scoring ability is inept. Juan and Steve are not capable of creating their own shots. JJJ is an inefficient/volume scorer (so it's difficult to play him alongside Carlino). Duane and Luke are learning on the job. Sandy is a spot-up shooter who seems to be hitting the "freshman wall." That's it. There's only so much you can do with that.
I really think that Duane, Luke and Sandy will raise their offensive games significantly next season and I'm hopeful than JJJ can become more efficient. Regardless, those players have raised their games defensively already which will no doubt benefit the team going forward.
That's a pretty good summary of things. I can agree with. Though I will say I see JJJ as having the most potential of anyone on the roster currently. Duane possibly. Cohen is about 2 years away. Can't create his own shot to save his life. Needs to add A LOT of strength. Has a really nice stroke though, but needs to improve his get off time. Slow release.
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That's a pretty good summary of things. I can agree with. Though I will say I see JJJ as having the most potential of anyone on the roster currently. Duane possibly. Cohen is about 2 years away. Can't create his own shot to save his life. Needs to add A LOT of strength. Has a really nice stroke though, but needs to improve his get off time. Slow release.
Why don't you make more posts like this one, Ners? You stayed on topic, stated your opinion without taking blatant shots at any current players or fellow posters. You mentioned that you like JJJ's potential without ranting and you made a solid observation about Cohen.
That wasn't that hard, was it? ;)
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Why don't you make more posts like this one, Ners? You stayed on topic, stated your opinion without taking blatant shots at any current players or fellow posters. You mentioned that you like JJJ's potential without ranting and you made a solid observation about Cohen.
That wasn't that hard, was it? ;)
Well you helped out a little in that you gave a fair and critical view of the team's limitations. In my view, and to your point you made - we struggle offensively. Without question. I'd like to see us get a third scoring option on the floor to help take the burden off of Carlino. Though JJJ is not as efficient as you or I would like, he is capable of getting shots/creating shots, and I believe as he plays more and develops a little more strength and confidence a lot more of his shots will fall.
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My simple theory for judging coaches: If a good coach has good/great talent, they will win games. If a good coach has bad players they will not win many games.
I think Wojo is absolutely the right guy for the job and he will have a lot of success at MU. But this year he simply doesn't have a lot of talent and that is not his fault.
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On the contrary .. besides performing (far) above expectations signing new recruits .. every other aspect of the program is below expectations. While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
It's hard to see this team has improved much from Game 1 to game 24, and you'd just naturally expect that we'd get better as the season wore on.
Then there's player development. Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season. We might be a tick better on defense than last year, but 8 notches worse on offense.
It's always hard to diagnose the problem that varies between lack of player talent vs. coaching talent, but .. I did not think we were this bad on paper before the season began.
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On the contrary .. besides performing (far) above expectations signing new recruits .. every other aspect of the program is below expectations. While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
It's hard to see this team has improved much from Game 1 to game 24, and you'd just naturally expect that we'd get better as the season wore on.
Then there's player development. Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season. We might be a tick better on defense than last year, but 8 notches worse on offense.
It's always hard to diagnose the problem that varies between lack of player talent vs. coaching talent, but .. I did not think we were this bad on paper before the season began.
Good post.
Wojo gets major credit for landing Henry, and then the rest of the guys in his first recruiting class But, other than that - I've been pretty disappointed with what I've seen with regard to managing the available talent on his roster. I believe Wojo knows his X's and O's and has show some good coaching chops in that regard. Will be shocked if he wins 100 games in his first 5 years on the job as Crean and Buzz did.
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I'm still buying. This season may end up being the best thing for Wojo in the long run. He gets to learn on the job with basically no expectations from fans - are rare opportunity, as close to a Mulligan as he's likely to have in his career. He is learning how to manage all aspects of a program and has already shown an ability to recruit. Years from now, I hope I'm toasting to this season as Wojo's trial by fire which lead to great success later on (at Marquette, of course).
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Here is why I am optimistic. He has this team under manned and under sized playing very formidable defense.
We are going to be adding on a lot of size next year and that is before the possibility of another scholarship on a JUCO big.
Just need the offensive talent to catch up. It will soon.
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I am optimistic about Wojo. But I guess it's gotten to the point where the biggest thing for me is how long Henry will stay.
I've always thought he would be here for 2 years (stay as long as Wally is here/stay for the 2016-2017 season that many think could be something special), but my biggest fear is that we waste the golden opportunity of him coming here - in that next year, while CERTAINLY better than this BS, could still be a bit of a rebuild (after games like tonight it's hard to envision otherwise).
If you keep Henry for 2 years then we more than likely make 2 tourneys and could make one heck of a run in 16/17. But have him here as a one-and-done while going through a lot of growing pains and it would feel like we couldn't capitalize on the most promising prospect Marquette has ever had. That's unfair and is a ton of pressure on a HS senior, but that's been my thought process ever since it become clear this season was a wash. Consistent, solid recruiting and the perception of the program would be much easier and much better having a guy like Henry in the program for 2 years. Again, that's my main focus at this point in time - as unfair and narrow-minded as that sounds.
But for next year, it's very clear that Wojo needs to bring in some more experienced talent yet - guys that could really complement our core 3 (Duane, Luke, Henry). Sandy, Jajuan could be ok off the bench in spurts, Wally is definitely a wildcard but his athletic upside is so great that he could certainly find a good role, and I'm awfully bullish on Cheatham too. As many have said, I think a "proven" wing scorer (a guy like Ty Outlaw) and experienced PG (Nic Moore has become the pipe dream, but I'm sure there will be a number of grad transfer PGs available) would do wonders for next year's team.
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This was the first game I got to go to where I was sitting within 20 rows of the floor. The way Xavier punished MU for having Derrick out there was so obvious. They sagged off him at every opportunity both on and off the ball. They didn't do that at the start and you saw Luke and others benefit with some good looks. Once they sagged off, everyone else was playing 2 on 1 ball. I know Derricks a good kid but man....it was impossible to miss what they did. They didn't respect Derrick and he sure didn't make them change their minds.
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On the contrary .. besides performing (far) above expectations signing new recruits .. every other aspect of the program is below expectations. While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
It's hard to see this team has improved much from Game 1 to game 24, and you'd just naturally expect that we'd get better as the season wore on.
Then there's player development. Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season. We might be a tick better on defense than last year, but 8 notches worse on offense.
It's always hard to diagnose the problem that varies between lack of player talent vs. coaching talent, but .. I did not think we were this bad on paper before the season began.
I expected 9th, hoped for 7th. Of course I thought Depaul and Creighton would be switched.
I think the team has gotten better, unfortunately we are playing much tougher competition during this stretch. We are naturally going to look a lot worse.
Yikes, I didn't know it was possible to be 8 notches worse on offense than last season.
Honestly, we were worse on paper to start the season. We had no business beating Tennessee, Georgia Tech, Providence, or Seton Hall. We should have beaten Omaha and Depaul. That's 4 unexpected wins and 2 unexpected losses. We've also hung in with much better teams. As painful as this season is, we are overperforming compared to what this team should have been on paper.
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Tonight was super frustrating, but I'm very optimistic about Wojo. This game showed how limited our options are on offense. However, our defense has gone from very bad at the start of the year to a very tough defense. This is while our offense has not been very good this year, and being an undersized team. I think as the talent improves with his recruiting (yes, even after some letdowns lately, I still am excited by star ratings), the offense will improve. Also, we are getting some good looks, but just can't finish. Defense is mostly about positioning and hustle, and I feel like Wojo is doing a very nice job of coaching these guys up.
OK, none of this year is on Wojo. The team has not progressed this year--That is surely Mr. Wojo. The rest we can thank Burt for.
But we all can look forward to next year.
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This was the first game I got to go to where I was sitting within 20 rows of the floor. The way Xavier punished MU for having Derrick out there was so obvious. They sagged off him at every opportunity both on and off the ball. They didn't do that at the start and you saw Luke and others benefit with some good looks. Once they sagged off, everyone else was playing 2 on 1 ball. I know Derricks a good kid but man....it was impossible to miss what they did. They didn't respect Derrick and he sure didn't make them change their minds.
Yep. And Fischer rarely ever kicks it back out when the lane is clogged. Of course, who out there can make a 3? Not Duane, Derrick or JJJ!
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We suck and coach doesn't get a free pass on our suckitude. I hope and think he will get better at his job but this is no boy genius here. We are terrible and it's not all on the kids.
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I am optimistic -- one thing nags however -- the Xavier freshmen were stronger, faster and appeared to be playing within the pace of high major College Basketball.
Could have been a bad game/showing on our part or their freshman could just be really good recruits (I have not idea of their rankings) -- but I did not get the same comfort from our Sophs and Sandy last night (besides Duane in spurts). You see the potential I just wish the advancement up the curve would continue and each game looked a little better -- and that Sandy looked a little stronger.
Could be the fact that there is just no JR/SR experience on this team that can be relied upon to shoulder the burden -- so they are being asked to do everything.
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I believe Wojo knows his X's and O's and has shown some good coaching chops in that regard.
He has? I'm asking.
Games where we've come out strong follow a trend: We do pretty well for the first 8-12 minutes, the other team adjusts, and catch up by half time, then crush us in the 2H as it appears we're unable to counter.
I suppose that leaves out games we're immediately being crushed, then are crushed less because of "good coaching."
Yadda yadda. One positive thing about Wojo is for the first time in years, we'll have zero worries about someone poaching our coach in April.
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I think it's fair to be both optimistic yet skeptical at this point. Wojo has to ultimately win to prove himself. But imagine if Carlino was an inch behind the line against GTown, MU holds on against Butler, and MU finds a way to win either of the Xavier or DePaul road games. I think people would be a lot more optimistic if Wojo had us at 6-6 in the BE instead of 3-9.
But there is still plenty of reason for optimism. The biggest being HE. Think about this. As much success as MU had with Crean and Buzz, neither landed a McD's AA. MU had pretty much no chance at HE despite having 3 consecutive Sweet 16's, one being an Elite 8, and a BE co-title following a BE runner up. Then we miss the tourney and hire a new coach, who takes us from having pretty much no shot at HE to signing him in less than 9 months. That tells me Wojo can connect with recruits and land elite prospects.
Now our struggles this year will be an obstacle Wojo will have to overcome on the recruiting trail. I still think landing HE opens the door for him to change perception among the 5 star recruits. For a longtime MU wasn't a place where 5 star recruits went but with HE coming, and if HE has success in college, gets drafted in the lottery after a year or two, and has a nice NBA career, then Wojo can use that success on the recruiting trail to raise MU to a new level down the line.
Ultimately Wojo's success will be determined by 1) how he develops Luke, Duane, Sandy, JJJ, and Wally over the next 2 years, 2) his first, highly rated recruiting class panning out, 3) who he lands with the three open scholarships, and 4) his 2016 recruiting class. After year 3 we'll have a much better idea where the program is trending. Like I said, right now it's fair to be both optimistic and remain skeptical. Wojo hasn't won enough to quiet the skeptics yet his first recruiting class is pretty impressive for a first time head coach taking over a team that missed the NCAA's the previous year. Let's see where it goes.
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Then there's player development. Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season. We might be a tick better on defense than last year, but 8 notches worse on offense.
I don't think this is true.
Derrick, Juan and STJ are better than last year, but they had a pretty low floor from which to improve.
JJJ IMO has improved in that he can play minutes against quality competition. Not a marked improvement, but an improvement nevertheless.
Duane and Sandy are performing like freshmen. Luke is hitting a wall.
Carlino in many respects is having his best year.
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We suck and coach doesn't get a free pass on our suckitude. I hope and think he will get better at his job but this is no boy genius here. We are terrible and it's not all on the kids.
Buzz succeeded because he had talented upper classmen, step up every year. Who are the upper classmen this year? Juan Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and Carlino. No disrespect to any of those, but not much to work with there.
The problem this year is simple. The key players are freshman or sophomores with very little experience. Wojo said he considers JJJ a freshman in terms of game experience, same for Fischer. Remember how other young guys weren’t that great but improved with experience, JFB, Matthews, Lazar, and on and on. Young guys are going to make mistakes that cost us games.
Have some patience. The future is bright. The young guys will improve considerably and reinforcements are coming. Let Wojo bring in his guys to play his system. Does anyone seriously think Buzzard could have done any better with this group? He couldn’t win with a more talented team last season. Plus we have a coach now who is not a whack job.
It sucks to lose, but look at the big picture. I watch the games to see how guys play and improve and how they can fit in for next season. The wins and losses really don’t matter this year. Yes, Wojo is a good coach and he gets a pass this year.
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I was able to sit pretty close last night, and paid special attention to Wojo. Convinced more than ever there's not much we can conclude about his coaching based on this group. There are a lot of bad habits ingrained. Several times last night he was getting on them to pick up their pace in the halfcourt offense. Everything is slow. Jogging on cuts, jogging to set screens, aimless dribbling, passes that are too late to set anything up. Unfortunately, with 8 scholarship guys, it's not like he can bench three of them to prove a point.
He needs a point guard next year. Someone who gets into the offense quickly, and doesn't let the ball stick to him. Derrick is doing what he can, but he's so limited. Carlino and Duane are shooting guards.
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Hard to know how good of a coach Wojo is. He has nothing to work with. This team is practically talentless. Would any MU players start for a ranked team? Heck, would any of them get off the bench for a ranked team? No and maybe.
Hard to get too upset over a team I expected nothing from. Just glad MU is one game closer to ending its season. The players appear to be trying hard...but that only gets you so far. Still need to have talent.
I think we have talent, the problem is all the talent is either Freshman or Sophomores...The 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes were absolutely brutal. Derrick, Juan, Steve are all role players who should be guys coming off the bench for energy/defense, but we have no choice to but to play Derrick and Juan big minutes.
Duane, Cohen, Luke, and even JJJ recently have shown they have the ability to be good players, but simply lack the strength and experience to do so at a consistent level. This team has talent, but it needs some time to mature.
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I think we have talent, the problem is all the talent is either Freshman or Sophomores...The 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes were absolutely brutal. Derrick, Juan, Steve are all role players who should be guys coming off the bench for energy/defense, but we have no choice to but to play Derrick and Juan big minutes.
Duane, Cohen, Luke, and even JJJ recently have shown they have the ability to be good players, but simply lack the strength and experience to do so at a consistent level. This team has talent, but it needs some time to mature.
There it is. 100% on point!
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While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
Maybe on Scoop we thought we could finish 6th but from most preseason rankings I don't remember ever seeing a prediction higher than 7th with a lot having us lower than that, several at 9 or grouped into the bottom 3.
I think Wojo has us on the right track but if we are honest with ourselves deep down we knew this season was going to be a struggle. We all just got a little overexcited when we played Wisconsin and Michigan State (now a bubble team) better than expected combined with Luke's arrival shortly afterward.
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We suck and coach doesn't get a free pass on our suckitude. I hope and think he will get better at his job but this is no boy genius here. We are terrible and it's not all on the kids.
But wait...Wojo worked with Kobe, Wade and Lebron in the Olympics. That was one of his resume enhancers to get our job. Hopefully he is learning on the job, just like Crean did. What really sucks is that every 5-7 years or so, we have to break in a new rookie coach who must learn on the job, and go through a couple of really crap years like this has turned out to be.
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But wait...Wojo worked with Kobe, Wade and Lebron in the Olympics. That was one of his resume enhancers to get our job. Hopefully he is learning on the job, just like Crean did. What really sucks is that every 5-7 years or so, we have to break in a new rookie coach who must learn on the job, and go through a couple of really crap years like this has turned out to be.
anything short of a N. C. is a "crap year" according to your standards.
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I think we have talent, the problem is all the talent is either Freshman or Sophomores...The 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes were absolutely brutal. Derrick, Juan, Steve are all role players who should be guys coming off the bench for energy/defense, but we have no choice to but to play Derrick and Juan big minutes.
Duane, Cohen, Luke, and even JJJ recently have shown they have the ability to be good players, but simply lack the strength and experience to do so at a consistent level. This team has talent, but it needs some time to mature.
I agree, and will add that they also need a little more help to be really competitive. I admit I am getting to the point where I don't care if we get manhandled in every game left, as long as we try to develop what we will have next year.
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anything short of a N. C. is a "crap year" according to your standards.
It makes me smile that the person with the most optimistic program expectations is the most pessimistic rhetorically
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I am still optimistic about Wojo. He clearly can recruit, and some of the game plans have been brilliant. Switching to the zone to match the talent worked out well...and then throwing man at teams that were expecting a zone kept us in games.
The one concern I have is with in-game adjustments. We have gotten into the habit of starting off strong (probably a result of his solid game plans), but then the other team makes adjustments and we can't respond. Whether it's big leads that we blow down the stretch like GTown and Butler, or an early lead that we lose by halftime like last night, I just don't see him adjusting well to the other coaches' adjustments.
My thought is that he needs an experienced coach to help with in-game adjustments. All of Wojo's assistants are young and promising, but he might benefit from a Wainwright or Keady type assistant.
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I think it's fair to be both optimistic yet skeptical at this point. Wojo has to ultimately win to prove himself. But imagine if Carlino was an inch behind the line against GTown, MU holds on against Butler, and MU finds a way to win either of the Xavier or DePaul road games. I think people would be a lot more optimistic if Wojo had us at 6-6 in the BE instead of 3-9.
But there is still plenty of reason for optimism. The biggest being HE. Think about this. As much success as MU had with Crean and Buzz, neither landed a McD's AA. MU had pretty much no chance at HE despite having 3 consecutive Sweet 16's, one being an Elite 8, and a BE co-title following a BE runner up. Then we miss the tourney and hire a new coach, who takes us from having pretty much no shot at HE to signing him in less than 9 months. That tells me Wojo can connect with recruits and land elite prospects.
Now our struggles this year will be an obstacle Wojo will have to overcome on the recruiting trail. I still think landing HE opens the door for him to change perception among the 5 star recruits. For a longtime MU wasn't a place where 5 star recruits went but with HE coming, and if HE has success in college, gets drafted in the lottery after a year or two, and has a nice NBA career, then Wojo can use that success on the recruiting trail to raise MU to a new level down the line.
Ultimately Wojo's success will be determined by 1) how he develops Luke, Duane, Sandy, JJJ, and Wally over the next 2 years, 2) his first, highly rated recruiting class panning out, 3) who he lands with the three open scholarships, and 4) his 2016 recruiting class. After year 3 we'll have a much better idea where the program is trending. Like I said, right now it's fair to be both optimistic and remain skeptical. Wojo hasn't won enough to quiet the skeptics yet his first recruiting class is pretty impressive for a first time head coach taking over a team that missed the NCAA's the previous year. Let's see where it goes.
This is a very good summary. Well done.
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On the contrary .. besides performing (far) above expectations signing new recruits .. every other aspect of the program is below expectations. While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
It's hard to see this team has improved much from Game 1 to game 24, and you'd just naturally expect that we'd get better as the season wore on.
Then there's player development. Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season. We might be a tick better on defense than last year, but 8 notches worse on offense.
It's always hard to diagnose the problem that varies between lack of player talent vs. coaching talent, but .. I did not think we were this bad on paper before the season began.
I don't think many people thought the conference would have an opportunity to get 6 teams in, and at one point maybe even 7.
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During the first half last night, as the lead was starting to be blown, they had the camera in the MU huddle during a media timeout. Wojo was emphasizing to the players that they had to keep their emotions under control, can't keep having all these wild ups and downs. Then at the start of the second half, the call goes against Fischer and Wojo blows his top, gets T'd up, and keeps after the ref even after the technical call. Not exactly demonstrating the calming influence he seemed to think the team needed, and not the first time this season, either. Would be human nature to start tuning out a coach who keeps contradicting himself like this.
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During the first half last night, as the lead was starting to be blown, they had the camera in the MU huddle during a media timeout. Wojo was emphasizing to the players that they had to keep their emotions under control, can't keep having all these wild ups and downs. Then at the start of the second half, the call goes against Fischer and Wojo blows his top, gets T'd up, and keeps after the ref even after the technical call. Not exactly demonstrating the calming influence he seemed to think the team needed, and not the first time this season, either. Would be human nature to start tuning out a coach who keeps contradicting himself like this.
Funny - that was a weak foul on Luke and I took it as purposely getting a T to protect his players. We got the next two calls in return that were also weak as compared to how the entire game was called. Honestly thought that was a good strategic T as opposed to being out of control emotionally. Can see the other side you paint though.
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Funny - that was a weak foul on Luke and I took it as purposely getting a T to protect his players. We got the next two calls in return that were also weak as compared to how the entire game was called. Honestly thought that was a good strategic T as opposed to being out of control emotionally. Can see the other side you paint though.
MU got 4 of the next 5 calls. It served a purpose.
I'm glad he got the technical. The older refs in the league dismiss him like he's some kid, and I saw it first hand last night. No respect at all. Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't get run. He kept going while X was at the line.
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Wojo won the interview by laying out a detailed, LONG TERM vision for the program. He will get several years to implement it.
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Wojo got hired to paint a house and was handed a bucket that was half full. Relax ,he has more paint on order. He will get the job done.
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Wojo got hired to paint a house and was handed a bucket that was half full. Relax ,he has more paint on order. He will get the job done.
Marquette needs more Tom Sawyers.
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Wojo won the interview by laying out a detailed, LONG TERM vision for the program. He will get several years to implement it.
That's nice. Unfortunately the Marquette program wasn't in shambles at the time of his hire. This wasn't O'Neill coming to MU or even Crean for that matter.
And as Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit."
We'll see how Wojo responds. I don't doubt he is a hard worker, and will work his ass of and do his absolute best to make our program a solid and consistent NCAA tournament team.
Think we'll know in 3 years as another here posted. If I had to bet, though, I'd go short on Wojo. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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That's nice. Unfortunately the Marquette program wasn't in shambles at the time of his hire. This wasn't O'Neill coming to MU or even Crean for that matter.
And as Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit."
We'll see how Wojo responds. I don't doubt he is a hard worker, and will work his ass of and do his absolute best to make our program a solid and consistent NCAA tournament team.
Think we'll know in 3 years as another here posted. If I had to bet, though, I'd go short on Wojo. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Don't know yet about Wojo. He appears to be a good recruiter, but a poor in game coach. Need to see how those recruits work out. He did inherit a mess that Buzz left, and then lost 3 of those guys. What is concerning is that we are not improving as the year goes on. Several of the guys are young: Fischer, Sandy, Duane and JJJ, so all have room for improvement--but none of those guys has progressed real well this year from the start of the year. Inconsistent. We will lose Juan and Derrick's leadership and hard work, but they are role players. For Wojo to prove his worth, he needs another very good recruiting class, and at least 18 plus wins next year.
Right now, it is iffy and concerning. We should definitely know Wojo's value by the end of Year 2.
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MU got 4 of the next 5 calls. It served a purpose.
I'm glad he got the technical. The older refs in the league dismiss him like he's some kid, and I saw it first hand last night. No respect at all. Frankly, I'm surprised he didn't get run. He kept going while X was at the line.
The one they didn't get must have been a travel call, because on TV you could clearly hear Wojo yell, "You made your point on the technical, Mike". I am pretty sure it was after a Fischer travel call.
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Don't know yet about Wojo. He appears to be a good recruiter, but a poor in game coach. Need to see how those recruits work out. He did inherit a mess that Buzz left, and then lost 3 of those guys. What is concerning is that we are not improving as the year goes on. Several of the guys are young: Fischer, Sandy, Duane and JJJ, so all have room for improvement--but none of those guys has progressed real well this year from the start of the year. Inconsistent. We will lose Juan and Derrick's leadership and hard work, but they are role players. For Wojo to prove his worth, he needs another very good recruiting class, and at least 18 plus wins next year.
Right now, it is iffy and concerning. We should definitely know Wojo's value by the end of Year 2.
Sorry, but I simply don't agree that players aren't getting better. I think they are just playing against better, and more experienced teams.
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On the contrary .. besides performing (far) above expectations signing new recruits .. every other aspect of the program is below expectations. While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
It's hard to see this team has improved much from Game 1 to game 24, and you'd just naturally expect that we'd get better as the season wore on.
Then there's player development. Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season. We might be a tick better on defense than last year, but 8 notches worse on offense.
It's always hard to diagnose the problem that varies between lack of player talent vs. coaching talent, but .. I did not think we were this bad on paper before the season began.
I thought they'd be bottom 3, with DePaul and Creighton. I thought they'd struggle to finish .500. I was stunned they stayed close to Wisconsin and Michigan State, and surprised they beat Tennessee and Providence. I thought we would struggle at PG, struggle hitting outside shots and struggle rebounding. In summary, the Warriors are doing about what I expected, but I am a more realistic fan than many.
On this point -- Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season -- I believe you are quite wrong.
Juan is far better, Taylor and JJJ are quite a bit better, and Derrick also has improved the things he could improve upon. Of the newbies, Carlino has performed better than I thought he would. Duane, Luke and Cohen have had their moments.
It is a group with serious limitations. Wojo has done some things well but has struggled in late-game management, among other things; that is a very common thing for young coaches to struggle with.
I remain optimistic about Wojo for three reasons:
1. He has started to create a culture of players taking ownership for the way they prepare and play.
2. He has recruited well so far.
3. To believe otherwise -- that he sucks and we are doomed -- is not how I choose to think less than one year into a new regime. We need WAAAY more time to judge him accurately.
All of the above IMHO, of course.
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Sorry, but I simply don't agree that players aren't getting better. I think they are just playing against better, and more experienced teams.
And losing quite a bit, and not scoring very well, and getting blown out on their home floor, and so on. That is not improving IMO.
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On this point -- Of returning players, zero of them are performing any better than last season -- I believe you are quite wrong.
Ok, ok, you guys got me. I should have used the phrase "much better" instead of "any better."
As was suggested, the bar was pretty low, so yeah, they got fractionally better I'll grant you that .. if you grant me that zero of them turned into the players we needed to be successful this year.
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And losing quite a bit, and not scoring very well, and getting blown out on their home floor, and so on. That is not improving IMO.
Outside shooting. Offensive rebounding. PG play. Fischer being slight and getting gassed early, plus please learn a quick turnaround jump shot. Thats what is killing the team this year with the 7/8 guys.
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Ok, ok, you guys got me. I should have used the phrase "much better" instead of "any better."
As was suggested, the bar was pretty low, so yeah, they got fractionally better I'll grant you that .. if you grant me that zero of them turned into the players we needed to be successful this year.
That is true but you need to be realistic. Yes, if Juan suddenly became a Lazar-type player, Carlino was actually reincarnated Steve Alford, STJr morphed into Jae Crowder and Derrick reminded everyone of Aaron Hutchins 2.0, the team would be much more successful. However, there was absolutely no reason to believe that anything even close to that would happen.
Are you one of those fans who was expecting Dameon Mason to become the next Dwyane Wade?
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That is true but you need to be realistic. Yes, if Juan suddenly became a Lazar-type player, Carlino was actually reincarnated Steve Alford, STJr morphed into Jae Crowder and Derrick reminded everyone of Aaron Hutchins 2.0, the team would be much more successful. However, there was absolutely no reason to believe that anything even close to that would happen.
Are you one of those fans who was expecting Dameon Mason to become the next Dwyane Wade?
Really? You think I'm the type who thought/expected STJr would change into Crowder, or Juan into Lazar? Because that would be idiotic. C'mon.
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Really? You think I'm the type who thought/expected STJr would change into Crowder, or Juan into Lazar? Because that would be idiotic. C'mon.
What exactly were you expecting from these guys? You stated that they improved but "zero of them turned into the players we needed to be successful this year." What were your so-called realistic expectations?
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Ok, ok, you guys got me. I should have used the phrase "much better" instead of "any better."
As was suggested, the bar was pretty low, so yeah, they got fractionally better I'll grant you that .. if you grant me that zero of them turned into the players we needed to be successful this year.
You mean none of them somehow split in half and formed clones of themselves? Because that's about the only thing that would have led us to be successful this year.
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Ok, ok, you guys got me. I should have used the phrase "much better" instead of "any better."
As was suggested, the bar was pretty low, so yeah, they got fractionally better I'll grant you that .. if you grant me that zero of them turned into the players we needed to be successful this year.
But how much improvement did you expect? Players don't usually make giant leaps from one year to the next. Most gradually improve as they hone their craft, get physically stronger, and gain experience.
My guess is that your expectations were too high.
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But how much improvement did you expect? Players don't usually make giant leaps from one year to the next. Most gradually improve as they hone their craft, get physically stronger, and gain experience.
My guess is that your expectations were too high.
then we are not a blue blood
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Ok, ok, you guys got me. I should have used the phrase "much better" instead of "any better."
As was suggested, the bar was pretty low, so yeah, they got fractionally better I'll grant you that .. if you grant me that zero of them turned into the players we needed to be successful this year.
Here is where I question the realistic nature of your expectations and perhaps question the placing of your doubt.
The players are better than they were last year, just a question for you to what degree.....what is a reasonable degree of improvement. Additionally, Wojo is playing with the deck of cards Buzz left behind. Wojo is having to adapt to those players and their abilities. So he is having to develop those players plus alter whatever his steady-state philosophy would be.
If there is a fault in the current talent on the roster, that lies with Buzz(with the exception of Sandy). Just because Wojo may not be able to develop the talent that is currently on the roster, doesn't mean he can't develop the roster as it moves forward.
Lastly, this game and the Nova one are very bad and disheartening but we were very competitive in every other game, if you get 2 or 3 to bounce the other way(Carlino's foot smaller by a cm, bad calls in the Georgetown game, etc) we are all singing a different tune. This team will be light years better than next year, you can count on it.
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I'm very optimistic about Wojo, and I predict someone surfaces this thread 5 years from now and we all have a good chuckle about what morons we all were.
There are definitely things you can fault in Wojo's first year, but I think in total there are far more positives than negatives. My list:
-Can admit when he is wrong (Sandy/DePaul)
-Can alter his preferred style (going to zone, etc)
-Has the team engaged despite the results to date
-Learns (professional T in X game, etc)
-Coaches to win, not lose
-Can recruit
-Can engage media and handle MU PR with class
I'm probably forgetting a few things. Respect the process.
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I'm very optimistic about Wojo, and I predict someone surfaces this thread 5 years from now and we all have a good chuckle about what morons we all were.
There are definitely things you can fault in Wojo's first year, but I think in total there are far more positives than negatives. My list:
-Can admit when he is wrong (Sandy/DePaul)
-Can alter his preferred style (going to zone, etc)
-Has the team engaged despite the results to date
-Learns (professional T in X game, etc)
-Coaches to win, not lose
-Can recruit
-Can engage media and handle MU PR with class
I'm probably forgetting a few things. Respect the process.
Careful, TexWestern will drop you from his newletter distribution with that kind of talk.
.....I'm also in the very optimistic and looking forward to the learnings camp
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Careful, TexWestern will drop you from his newletter distribution with that kind of talk.
.....I'm also in the very optimistic and looking forward to the learnings camp
(http://media0.giphy.com/media/fbXen1R303gek/200.gif)
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Outside shooting. Offensive rebounding. PG play. Fischer being slight and getting gassed early, plus please learn a quick turnaround jump shot. Thats what is killing the team this year with the 7/8 guys.
Ding! Ding! Ding! How many open shots and easy layups have we missed this season? I can't count that high.
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Good post.
Will be shocked if he wins 100 games in his first 5 years on the job as Crean and Buzz did.
Crean went 15-14 in his first two seasons and had 102 wins in five years and Mike Deane won 100 games in five years with one season at 14-15. Way too soon for your prediction.
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My expectations for players year/year growth is a modicum. A skosh. A tad. A dash. An Iota or two. Three smidgens.
I'm not demanding.
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My expectations for players year/year growth is a modicum. A skosh. A tad. A dash. An Iota or two. Three smidgens.
I'm not demanding.
Then you should be thrilled.
Juan improved way more than a skosh. Taylor improved more than a tad. JJJ improved about a dash. And Derrick has probably improved an iota or a smidgen.
Or perhaps you have forgotten about how dreadful each of them was last year? And I mean DREADFUL.
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Marquette needs more Tom Sawyers.
Traditional.
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On the contrary .. besides performing (far) above expectations signing new recruits .. every other aspect of the program is below expectations. While no one expected big things this year, the expectations were to be around 6th place .. few thought we'd be fighting to stay out of last place.
6th place, whose expectations were that? Most magazines predicted anywhere from 9th to 7th and that was with Mayo.
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This is the worst MU team in 51 years...what matter if it's a sixth place ribbon or tenth? MU is horrible, top to bottom. Time for the reset for the future. For whatever reasons, some of the best scorers and an early Wojo recruit jumped shipped as did three pretty good signed recruits who were offensively inclined. Wojo had a part in that, fair or not. His first year plan was not good--as he had no back-up plan. Sorry, that's on him as he inherited the dysfunction before him, and he should have known it. Say what you will about Buzz's misses, but he moved on his mistakes right away. It is too bad these all ended in roster voids.
Early on, it was about creating a brotherhood for the incumbents. Build a new locker room and culture, etc. Well, a good portion of those players are already gone, and three more are about to graduate. Wojo gave some feel good speeches. Hasn't worked out yet. It will be a full five year plan here at this point, so be patient.
Then, it was all about individual skills workouts in the summer versus strength and conditioning under Buzz. With Todd Smith, this was a strength of MU's program.That is obviously lacking in the BE grind. The previous ACC where Wojo came from was a finesse league.The BE is a physical league and called that way, and the round robin format where coaches adjust is something he and his staff have not caught up with yet.
The new summer rules allowed more time to work on team offense and defense, something a new coach should spend an inordinate time on going into his first season anyway. It became evident early on in the Cupcake games that the defense was substandard...and the offense is looking like the worst in MU's statistical history, if not in the Big East's. The emphasis on the personal workouts doesn't seem to be paying team or individual dividends. He has made some very good adjustments on defense that have been impressive.
The last is school fit. The new President and new Big 4 Consultant Chair made this call. Some early on who know the program pushed hard for Shaka. Close but no cigar. Some in the know and/or in the AD, wanted Martin...some wanted some other experienced head coaches we all heard. In the end, Wojo gave good PowerPoint. He is a great school fit and program builder, and leaders have a lot of confidence in him and his resume as they reset the university and conference. It will take a full five years at this point...and my major question as it has been all along, is he going to or be allowed to recruit south of the Cheddar Line? HE was a great get. But, The Big East is an urban, physical and athletic league, and the HE class success needs to be followed up on. It is a head scratcher that MU is backing off a talent like Stone while Bucky is willing to? Do the newcomers know what it takes to win at Marquette and the Big East?
Rip away...but playing to win now with seniors as the primary focus will end the same as playing the future now for experience and evaluation this year, but MU will be in a better place tomorrow. In the gloom, obviously doubts abound, but there is a lot to improve upon. Pretty sure Wojo knows that as his emotions show and as he matures. Buzz is a soldier of fortune. Wojo is a program builder who needs time.
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This is the worst MU team in 51 years......but playing to win now with seniors as the primary focus will end the same as playing the future now for experience and evaluation this year, but MU will be in a better place tomorrow. In the gloom, obviously doubts abound, but there is a lot to improve upon. Pretty sure Wojo knows that as his emotions show and as he matures. Buzz is a soldier of fortune. Wojo is a program builder who needs time.
I really did not understand where you were going until the last sentence. You seem to both berate and support at the same time. However, your passion for the program and interest in the future is awesome. The undertone that our program is bigger than a single season, coach or recruiting class is something we all need to keep in mind
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It is a head scratcher that MU is backing off a talent like Stone while Bucky is willing to? Do the newcomers know what it takes to win at Marquette and the Big East?
Dr. not to merge other threads, but I think your hanging on to this weakens your argument. Bucky isn't going to go after Stone. MU chose to move on from Stone and I commend Wojo and the admin for doing so. Taking Stone is actually the lazy way out. There are reasons to move on that aren't apparent to the lay person....if they chose to bring Stone in, everyone goes insane at how good a recruiter Wojo is, plus he is an obvious talent....so they had all the incentive to bring him in and didn't. It's not a bad thing.
One other thing, the gaps on this roster are a function of Buzz Williams not Wojo, full stop. Two of the recruits followed Buzz to VPI and the third went to a top 5 program where he is getting good minutes while MU is real building....how does any of that go on Wojo? Mayo is gone, but thats almost entirely because he shouldn't have been here in the first place. Even with Buzz staying and his full recruiting class there were gaps in the roster that we would have been hard pressed to fill.
It is a long game here. Again if we make the sweet 16 next year and the elite 8 the following year, we'll all look back and laugh at this. We are on the right path IMO
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Doc, with all due respect, this is not the worst team in 51 years. The 10-18 MU team under Dukiet was putrid. This team would beat that team handily. There were some others in that era that were awful.
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Dr. not to merge other threads, but I think your hanging on to this weakens your argument. Bucky isn't going to go after Stone. MU chose to move on from Stone and I commend Wojo and the admin for doing so. Taking Stone is actually the lazy way out. There are reasons to move on that aren't apparent to the lay person....if they chose to bring Stone in, everyone goes insane at how good a recruiter Wojo is, plus he is an obvious talent....so they had all the incentive to bring him in and didn't. It's not a bad thing.
One other thing, the gaps on this roster are a function of Buzz Williams not Wojo, full stop. Two of the recruits followed Buzz to VPI and the third went to a top 5 program where he is getting good minutes while MU is real building....how does any of that go on Wojo? Mayo is gone, but thats almost entirely because he shouldn't have been here in the first place. Even with Buzz staying and his full recruiting class there were gaps in the roster that we would have been hard pressed to fill.
It is a long game here. Again if we make the sweet 16 next year and the elite 8 the following year, we'll all look back and laugh at this. We are on the right path IMO
I'm really curious about how you are projecting us to be a potential Sweet 16/Elite 8 team next year - you've written this many times regarding your outlook for next season? What are you basing that off of?
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Then, it was all about individual skills workouts in the summer versus strength and conditioning under Buzz. With Todd Smith, this was a strength of MU's program.That is obviously lacking in the BE grind. The previous ACC where Wojo came from was a finesse league.The BE is a physical league and called that way, and the round robin format where coaches adjust is something he and his staff have not caught up with yet.
The new summer rules allowed more time to work on team offense and defense, something a new coach should spend an inordinate time on going into his first season anyway. It became evident early on in the Cupcake games that the defense was substandard...and the offense is looking like the worst in MU's statistical history, if not in the Big East's. The emphasis on the personal workouts doesn't seem to be paying team or individual dividends. He has made some very good adjustments on defense that have been impressive.
The last is school fit. The new President and new Big 4 Consultant Chair made this call. Some early on who know the program pushed hard for Shaka. Close but no cigar. Some in the know and/or in the AD, wanted Martin...some wanted some other experienced head coaches we all heard. In the end, Wojo gave good PowerPoint. He is a great school fit and program builder, and leaders have a lot of confidence in him and his resume as they reset the university and conference. It will take a full five years at this point...and my major question as it has been all along, is he going to or be allowed to recruit south of the Cheddar Line? HE was a great get. But, The Big East is an urban, physical and athletic league, and the HE class success needs to be followed up on. It is a head scratcher that MU is backing off a talent like Stone while Bucky is willing to? Do the newcomers know what it takes to win at Marquette and the Big East?
Dr. I actually share a number of these concerns about the physicality of the Big East and the types of players being brought in. I have said this in other threads, but IMO Marquette really need a physical presence on the boards next year, and would love a Juco power forward type who can rebound, play defense, etc.
That being said, I am not sure how much the strength and conditioning has been de-emphasized under Wojo. Duane and JJJ have slight frames. I don't care how much weight they life, you are not going to put a lot of muscle on them. (Juan and Vander under Buzz were similar.) Let's just see how the next off-season goes, and what adjustments are made.
And Stone wasn't going to be brought in here no matter the President, AD or coach.
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Doc, with all due respect, this is not the worst team in 51 years. The 10-18 MU team under Dukiet was putrid. This team would beat that team handily. There were some others in that era that were awful.
Don't know about handily. But you would agree that this is reminiscent of Dukiet years?
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Don't know about handily. But you would agree that this is reminiscent of Dukiet years?
The Big East is SOOOO much better than the independent and MCC (Horizon League) schedules played by those Dukiet / early O'Neill teams. That 1987-88 team lost to the likes of Cleveland State (at home), Iona, Fordham, Evansville, Virginia Tech (at home) and Valparaiso.
And IMO the "young talent" on this year's team FAR surpasses what was on that 1987-88 team. (Not to mention that Henry Ellenson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerald Posey)
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Doc, with all due respect, this is not the worst team in 51 years. The 10-18 MU team under Dukiet was putrid. This team would beat that team handily. There were some others in that era that were awful.
Agree with Chicos for once. And on top of that we were loosing in the MCC!?!
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How does everyone feel about Butler?
1. Three years ago they finished tied for 3rd in the Horizon League
2. A year and a half ago they lost the best coach they have ever had
3. They lost their coach again before this season (possible upgrade to the new guy)
4. Their 2013/2014 recruiting rankings were 6th and 7th in the Big East.
And yet they sit 2nd in the Big East this season. Is it just coaching? Are their players just better and were diamonds in the rough? I think Marquette's future is brighter, just trying to figure out how they basically have the exact opposite record as us in the Big East.
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Sorry Doc., I can't agree with your take on this. I remember some God-awful basketball under Dukiet and some years of recruiting by Dean that were much more frustrating, albiet because of his satisfaction. I can't hang the lack of body development for Luke or Duane on Wojo. They had plenty of time last year to bulk up. They just aren't those body types. I can't fault Wojo for recruits bolting for Buzz or even going somewhere else when he leaves. Those that left after he was here maybe, but even then I think he gets at least a partial pass because he was an unknown to the players. There was a reason that he held back on filling every available scollie he had just to fill out the team, and I would like to hear him explain his thinking on that before judging. You make a good point about our early season defense being a joke, and while we can complain that should have been dealt with before the season started it was dealt with shortly into the season, and it does continue to evolve. I have to believe there is a plan in place that has more than a one year outlook. Nothing else matches what we have seen from Wojo so far. If so, I think we have to give that plan a few years to develop. If it doesn't work, we move on.
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Dr. not to merge other threads, but I think your hanging on to this weakens your argument. Bucky isn't going to go after Stone. MU chose to move on from Stone and I commend Wojo and the admin for doing so. Taking Stone is actually the lazy way out. There are reasons to move on that aren't apparent to the lay person....if they chose to bring Stone in, everyone goes insane at how good a recruiter Wojo is, plus he is an obvious talent....so they had all the incentive to bring him in and didn't. It's not a bad thing.
One other thing, the gaps on this roster are a function of Buzz Williams not Wojo, full stop. Two of the recruits followed Buzz to VPI and the third went to a top 5 program where he is getting good minutes while MU is real building....how does any of that go on Wojo? Mayo is gone, but thats almost entirely because he shouldn't have been here in the first place. Even with Buzz staying and his full recruiting class there were gaps in the roster that we would have been hard pressed to fill.
It is a long game here. Again if we make the sweet 16 next year and the elite 8 the following year, we'll all look back and laugh at this. We are on the right path IMO
Could a condition of Henry's recruitment have been moving on from Stone?
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The Big East is SOOOO much better than the independent and MCC (Horizon League) schedules played by those Dukiet / early O'Neill teams. That 1987-88 team lost to the likes of Cleveland State (at home), Iona, Fordham, Evansville, Virginia Tech (at home) and Valparaiso.
And IMO the "young talent" on this year's team FAR surpasses what was on that 1987-88 team. (Not to mention that Henry Ellenson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gerald Posey)
Sorry--I was saying that this year's team and its record is reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Not what we have coming in next year. What was the record under Dukiet? I recall one year where we only won 9 or 10 games. And that is a no brainer that Ellenson>than Posey.
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How does everyone feel about Butler?
1. Three years ago they finished tied for 3rd in the Horizon League
2. A year and a half ago they lost the best coach they have ever had
3. They lost their coach again before this season (possible upgrade to the new guy)
4. Their 2013/2014 recruiting rankings were 6th and 7th in the Big East.
And yet they sit 2nd in the Big East this season. Is it just coaching? Are their players just better and were diamonds in the rough? I think Marquette's future is brighter, just trying to figure out how they basically have the exact opposite record as us in the Big East.
Yeah! I just don't get it. Once Wojo gets his type of players perhaps we will be back on track.
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Could a condition of Henry's recruitment have been moving on from Stone?
No
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Yep, we are in a very delicate and important transition point. The team sucks, we all hope our coach is good, fans are nervous, administration is new, students are inconsistent in support, we are relying too heavily on unenrolled recruits, .... Other than that I have a lot of confidence in our future state. However, once a fan, always a fan. Sorry, kind of Murfish.
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Dr. not to merge other threads, but I think your hanging on to this weakens your argument. Bucky isn't going to go after Stone. MU chose to move on from Stone and I commend Wojo and the admin for doing so. Taking Stone is actually the lazy way out. There are reasons to move on that aren't apparent to the lay person....if they chose to bring Stone in, everyone goes insane at how good a recruiter Wojo is, plus he is an obvious talent....so they had all the incentive to bring him in and didn't. It's not a bad thing.
One other thing, the gaps on this roster are a function of Buzz Williams not Wojo, full stop. Two of the recruits followed Buzz to VPI and the third went to a top 5 program where he is getting good minutes while MU is real building....how does any of that go on Wojo? Mayo is gone, but thats almost entirely because he shouldn't have been here in the first place. Even with Buzz staying and his full recruiting class there were gaps in the roster that we would have been hard pressed to fill.
It is a long game here. Again if we make the sweet 16 next year and the elite 8 the following year, we'll all look back and laugh at this. We are on the right path IMO
"Bucky isn't going after Stone?" Huh? He may not end up there but not sure what you mean by that.
As to Stone, I am glad MU is in such a strong position to not go after the #4 player in the country, even perceptually. Even if you are not going to sign him, why wouldn't you want to be mentioned with him? It infinitely helps your other recruiting, especially when your geographic rival is the leader. Also can he afford to alienate SE Wisconsin? I doubt any team in the BE would take that same approach of passing on a Top 5 player.
I guess high expectations are not to be expected in the near term? Just don't agree at all as it is a slippery slope. I hope to be found wrong in five years. Like Duane, Sandy and Luke as a base, but he needs to see the urgency of nailing this Spring class after the great Fall class. Recruiting momentum slips fast.
As to blame for this year, he is the coach. It is part of the job, and he should have done his homework from Day 1. He made the void in his team bigger by four points on his watch. On the plus side, he grabbed Carlino's and Wally. That isn't all on Buzz--in fact he had a great class coming in--nor is Wojo completely blameless is all I am saying.
Look, the point of my post is that there are good and bad within the program. God couldn't have done a perfect job. It takes any one about nine months to learn a new job realistically. Wojo has never lost this much in his life. Heck, I haven't seen MU lose like this in my life as I mentioned in another thread that MU hasn't lost four in a row at home in 51 years. Folks shouldn't expect a turn around job by Wojo like a KO...he is a program builder. It will take five years. Time to start Saturday in "The Battle for the Basement".
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Don't know about handily. But you would agree that this is reminiscent of Dukiet years?
No. The talent levels and the level of competition are nowhere close. Not even in the same planet.
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Doc, losing 4 at home is subjective in the sense you have to consider who they lost to. Two of them are quality teams and both went to overtime. I don't know, I just can't see how someone that has been following this team as long as you have can have amnesia from 1987 to 1991. Dukiet and KO's first teams were God awful. Epic bad. Historic bad. Against competition that this current team would wipe the floor with.
It actually matters who you are playing when factoring in who you are beating and\or losing to.
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I'm very optimistic about Wojo, and I predict someone surfaces this thread 5 years from now and we all have a good chuckle about what morons we all were.
There are definitely things you can fault in Wojo's first year, but I think in total there are far more positives than negatives. My list:
-Can admit when he is wrong (Sandy/DePaul)
-Can alter his preferred style (going to zone, etc)
-Has the team engaged despite the results to date
-Learns (professional T in X game, etc)
-Coaches to win, not lose
-Can recruit
-Can engage media and handle MU PR with class
I'm probably forgetting a few things. Respect the process.
-Flushes own toilet
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Doc, losing 4 at home is subjective in the sense you have to consider who they lost to. Two of them are quality teams and both went to overtime. I don't know, I just can't see how someone that has been following this team as long as you have can have amnesia from 1987 to 1991. Dukiet and KO's first teams were God awful. Epic bad. Historic bad. Against competition that this current team would wipe the floor with.
It actually matters who you are playing when factoring in who you are beating and\or losing to.
This hasn't happened in 51 years...have a pretty good chance, per Pomeroy, of hitting seven straight. Not even the Piano Man was that off key.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46470.msg698118#msg698118
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This hasn't happened in 51 years...have a pretty good chance, per Pomeroy, of hitting seven straight. Not even the Piano Man was that off key.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46470.msg698118#msg698118
Piano man was taking on Loyola of Chicago, Stetson, Northeastern, and the like. Totally different world.
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Dukiet was 10-18 playing what we now consider cupcakes.
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Doc, losing 4 at home is subjective in the sense you have to consider who they lost to. Two of them are quality teams and both went to overtime. I don't know, I just can't see how someone that has been following this team as long as you have can have amnesia from 1987 to 1991. Dukiet and KO's first teams were God awful. Epic bad. Historic bad. Against competition that this current team would wipe the floor with.
It actually matters who you are playing when factoring in who you are beating and\or losing to.
This is a wonderful point.
Perspective matters, people!
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No. The talent levels and the level of competition are nowhere close. Not even in the same planet.
In the Dukiet years we would not have beaten Georgia Tech, Tennessee & Arizona State in the same season.
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In the Dukiet years we would not have beaten Georgia Tech, Tennessee & Arizona State started a season with 8 Top 100 players on the roster in the same season.
Just another matter of perspective to be considered...
Dukiet was awful, nobody denies that. He didn't walk into the situation Wojo walked into. Not even close. Big East, The Al, Coming off 11 NCAA appearances in 12 years, 3 Sweet 16s in the 3 of the 4 years prior to taking the job, blah, blah, blah.
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Piano man was taking on Loyola of Chicago, Stetson, Northeastern, and the like. Totally different world.
But wait.....that team also played Tennessee, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Minnesota, DePaul twice, Notre Dame twice, Dayton twice, Creighton, Wake Forest, Miami (Fla.), Xavier, and KState.
So please, totally different world? What about us this year: Wisc. Luth. (exhibition), Tn. Martin, Omaha, NJIT, Alabama A&M, North Dakota and Morgan State?
Point being the competitiveness was also there in 1987-88 as today. And that 87-88 team had some good players: Tony Smith, Trevor Powell, Pat Foley, Pops Sims, Tony Reeder, and Anglavar.
But why let facts get in the way of opinion.
Dukiet was a bad coach, but the team had a competitive schedule, with cupcakes just like this year and some good players.
And it appears that records may end up similar. Different eras--yes.
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Dukiet was 10-18 playing what we now consider cupcakes.
Yes, Tennessee, Xavier, Wisconsin, DePaul twice, Notre Dame twice, Northwestern, Minnesota, KSate, Miami (Fla.) Dayton twice, Creighton, are all considered cupcakes today. Please!
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Just another matter of perspective to be considered...
Dukiet was awful, nobody denies that. He didn't walk into the situation Wojo walked into. Not even close. Big East, The Al, Coming off 11 NCAA appearances in 12 years, 3 Sweet 16s in the 3 of the 4 years prior to taking the job, blah, blah, blah.
You keep saying there were 8 top 100 players on our roster. There were 7. Two of whom had never played a minute of D1 basketball (Duane, Sandy), 2 of whom who had been busts for 2+ years (Juan, Steve), one of whom wasn't available to December (Luke), one of whom was playing out of position and lost his mother (Deonte), and one of whom struggled mightily last season (JjJ). Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, Mayo, and Wally were not top 100 players.
But I get it, recruiting rankings matter after you've been in the program for over a year. That's why every Big East coach says when preparing his players to play Marquette "Look out for Jajuan Johnson, he's their best player, he was ranked 32nd coming out of high school! Don't let his stats from the last two seasons fool you!" ::)
Also not sure why any of the rest matters. All the things you listed are things that give him an advantage on the recruiting trail. None of that can help him win this season. If anything, they work against him winning this season because the competition is so high!
You are right that Wojo walked into a better situation overall than Dukiet did. But Wojo walked into a tougher situation for winning his first season. If Dukiet played our schedule this season he would be 2-22
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Willie, how good were the teams you mentioned? I didn't bring them up because I had no idea.
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You keep saying there were 8 top 100 players on our roster. There were 7. Two of whom had never played a minute of D1 basketball (Duane, Sandy), 2 of whom who had been busts for 2+ years (Juan, Steve), one of whom wasn't available to December (Luke), one of whom was playing out of position and lost his mother (Deonte), and one of whom struggled mightily last season (JjJ). Carlino, Derrick, Dawson, Mayo, and Wally were not top 100 players.
But I get it, recruiting rankings matter after you've been in the program for over a year. That's why every Big East coach says when preparing his players to play Marquette "Look out for Jajuan Johnson, he's their best player, he was ranked 32nd coming out of high school! Don't let his stats from the last two seasons fool you!" ::)
Also not sure why any of the rest matters. All the things you listed are things that give him an advantage on the recruiting trail. None of that can help him win this season. If anything, they work against him winning this season because the competition is so high!
You are right that Wojo walked into a better situation overall than Dukiet did. But Wojo walked into a tougher situation for winning his first season. If Dukiet played our schedule this season he would be 2-22
Excuses are only good for the person who makes them. They don't do me any good.
It's incredible to me to read the length you go to, to paint such a bleak picture of what Wojo walked into. Duane, JJJ, Burton and Luke are all Top 60 recruits - and all should be solid players by sophomore year. It's on Wojo to coach that development, as the talent is there. Wojo started right playing JJJ 30+ but then he got all wishy washy with JJJ's playing time. Never maxed Burton's minutes. There were talented resources on hand and Wojo ultimately hasn't and didn't deploy them efficiently/effectively. And, it is reflected in our record.
Would have been much better served to pull a Tom Crean in the year of the Big Three and just roll with Duane, JJJ and Burton right from the start 26+ minutes per game. I don't care if JJJ/Burton struggle with "Wojo's Way" or whatever, those guys are/were the 3 most talented guys on your roster (along with Carlino) and the future of the program. Carlino has been good as a basketball player this year, yet in terms of the big picture - I feel his one year rental took valuable minutes away from JJJ.
This whole 5 year play Wojo spoke of would have been better served developing the existing assets within the program, rather than losing 2 of them, and limiting a 3rd to bizarre playing time inconsistency.
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Yes, Tennessee, Xavier, Wisconsin, DePaul twice, Notre Dame twice, Northwestern, Minnesota, KSate, Miami (Fla.) Dayton twice, Creighton, are all considered cupcakes today. Please!
the ones crossed out were all cupcakes in 1987-88 (none of them made the NCAA tourney)
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Willie, how good were the teams you mentioned? I didn't bring them up because I had no idea.
In 1987-88 (Dukiet and MU's worst in 50+ years) we were 10-18. We were 9-7 at home, 1-11 on the road, and 1-6 vs NCAA tournament teams. We had 3 wins against what I would call "cupcakes" (Canisius, Hartford and at Stetson). Other wins were against Xavier (26-4, NCAA), Northwestern, Miami, Fl, Wake Forest, Dayton, Air Force and Western Michigan.
This year we are 11-13, 8-6 at home, 2-1 (N) and 1-6 on the road. Based on current bracketology, we are 1-9 against NCAA tournament teams. We have 5 wins (Tenn. Martin, NJIT, Alabama A+M, North Dakota and Morgan State) and 1 loss (Omaha) against cupcakes, Other wins are against Georgia Tech, Tennessee, Arizona St, Providence, Creighton and at Seton Hall.
Summary: This year's team has a slightly better record and has played more top flight teams. They also played more cupcakes and 17/24 of their games on home or neutral courts (16/28 in 87-88).
Looking at it in context I'd say this year's team is, right now, a little better - but they're leaking oil. I don't expect them to lose out but if they do it's a coin flip.
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the ones not crossed out were all cupcakes in 1987-88 (none of them made the NCAA tourney)
Cupcakes are Tennessee Martin, NJIT, Alabama A+M, North Dakota, Morgan St and Omaha - they're not teams who don't make the NCAA tournament.
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the ones not crossed out were all cupcakes in 1987-88 (none of them made the NCAA tourney)
Really--the definition of a cupcake is you don't make the tournament. Then we are a huge cupcake. LMAO. There are many teams that did not make the tournament that are not cupcakes. Please go back and take remedial basketball again.
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This is the worst MU team in 51 years...what matter if it's a sixth place ribbon or tenth? MU is horrible, top to bottom. Time for the reset for the future. For whatever reasons, some of the best scorers and an early Wojo recruit jumped shipped as did three pretty good signed recruits who were offensively inclined. Wojo had a part in that, fair or not. His first year plan was not good--as he had no back-up plan. Sorry, that's on him as he inherited the dysfunction before him, and he should have known it. Say what you will about Buzz's misses, but he moved on his mistakes right away. It is too bad these all ended in roster voids.
Early on, it was about creating a brotherhood for the incumbents. Build a new locker room and culture, etc. Well, a good portion of those players are already gone, and three more are about to graduate. Wojo gave some feel good speeches. Hasn't worked out yet. It will be a full five year plan here at this point, so be patient.
Then, it was all about individual skills workouts in the summer versus strength and conditioning under Buzz. With Todd Smith, this was a strength of MU's program.That is obviously lacking in the BE grind. The previous ACC where Wojo came from was a finesse league.The BE is a physical league and called that way, and the round robin format where coaches adjust is something he and his staff have not caught up with yet.
The new summer rules allowed more time to work on team offense and defense, something a new coach should spend an inordinate time on going into his first season anyway. It became evident early on in the Cupcake games that the defense was substandard...and the offense is looking like the worst in MU's statistical history, if not in the Big East's. The emphasis on the personal workouts doesn't seem to be paying team or individual dividends. He has made some very good adjustments on defense that have been impressive.
The last is school fit. The new President and new Big 4 Consultant Chair made this call. Some early on who know the program pushed hard for Shaka. Close but no cigar. Some in the know and/or in the AD, wanted Martin...some wanted some other experienced head coaches we all heard. In the end, Wojo gave good PowerPoint. He is a great school fit and program builder, and leaders have a lot of confidence in him and his resume as they reset the university and conference. It will take a full five years at this point...and my major question as it has been all along, is he going to or be allowed to recruit south of the Cheddar Line? HE was a great get. But, The Big East is an urban, physical and athletic league, and the HE class success needs to be followed up on. It is a head scratcher that MU is backing off a talent like Stone while Bucky is willing to? Do the newcomers know what it takes to win at Marquette and the Big East?
Rip away...but playing to win now with seniors as the primary focus will end the same as playing the future now for experience and evaluation this year, but MU will be in a better place tomorrow. In the gloom, obviously doubts abound, but there is a lot to improve upon. Pretty sure Wojo knows that as his emotions show and as he matures. Buzz is a soldier of fortune. Wojo is a program builder who needs time.
I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours. We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.
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In 1987-88 (Dukiet and MU's worst in 50+ years) we were 10-18. We were 9-7 at home, 1-11 on the road, and 1-6 vs NCAA tournament teams. We had 3 wins against what I would call "cupcakes" (Canisius, Hartford and at Stetson). Other wins were against Xavier (26-4, NCAA), Northwestern, Miami, Fl, Wake Forest, Dayton, Air Force and Western Michigan.
Outside of Xavier, Miami was the only win against a team who ended up with a winning record.
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It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours. We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.
Hilarious.
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Excuses are only good for the person who makes them. They don't do me any good.
It's incredible to me to read the length you go to, to paint such a bleak picture of what Wojo walked into. Duane, JJJ, Burton and Luke are all Top 60 recruits - and all should be solid players by sophomore year. It's on Wojo to coach that development, as the talent is there. Wojo started right playing JJJ 30+ but then he got all wishy washy with JJJ's playing time. Never maxed Burton's minutes. There were talented resources on hand and Wojo ultimately hasn't and didn't deploy them efficiently/effectively. And, it is reflected in our record.
Would have been much better served to pull a Tom Crean in the year of the Big Three and just roll with Duane, JJJ and Burton right from the start 26+ minutes per game. I don't care if JJJ/Burton struggle with "Wojo's Way" or whatever, those guys are/were the 3 most talented guys on your roster (along with Carlino) and the future of the program. Carlino has been good as a basketball player this year, yet in terms of the big picture - I feel his one year rental took valuable minutes away from JJJ.
This whole 5 year play Wojo spoke of would have been better served developing the existing assets within the program, rather than losing 2 of them, and limiting a 3rd to bizarre playing time inconsistency.
Carlino was brought in to be the teams #1 scoring option and to take a bulk of the minutes at the point. He was running the point when the season began with JJJ at the 2. Unfortunately, Carlino proved to be a better player off the ball and JJJ simply wasn't getting it done, especially defensively, and Derrick, the team's best defender and only true PG, was eventually inserted into the starting line-up and JJJ came off the bench. Keep in mind that JJJ started the first 3 games of the season and then games 7-8. He was given an opportunity to take a big chunk of perimeter minutes but he didn't produce on both ends of the floor.
He has definitely played better in the last couple of games and will likely see his minutes increase as long as he continues to do so and continues to practice well. He still needs to gamble less on D and play more under control offensively, especially when he drives.
If you want to pin anything on Wojo, you can blame him for believing that Carlino could run the point and that JJJ would live up to his HS ranking. Neither of those happened and the coaching staff had to adjust.
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I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours. We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.
That price? A top 10 recruiting class.
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I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours. We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.
That is absolutely silly.
Marquette has had better success hiring coaches in the exact mold of Wojo, assistants at other top basketball schools, than hiring experienced coaches. Do you realize that Wojo is older, and has more experience than either Kevin O'Neill or Tom Crean do when Marquette hired them?
And are you saying the players aren't comfortable with Wojo now?
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That is absolutely silly.
Marquette has had better success hiring coaches in the exact mold of Wojo, assistants at other top basketball schools, than hiring experienced coaches. Do you realize that Wojo is older, and has more experience than either Kevin O'Neill or Tom Crean do when Marquette hired them?
And are you saying the players aren't comfortable with Wojo now?
Maybe maturity is not the correct word. Wojo was in one specific basketball system for so many years that he does not have a broader perspective of things. I have seen this so many times in the business world. A guy comes from Big Company X to medium size company Y and the body rejects the organ.
Yes, I believe that the players are not comfortable with , and do not have much enthusiasm for Wojo because they don't trust him. Players want to know that the coach has their back. I don't see him as the type of coach that players will walk through walls for. Kids are often more insightful than they are given credit for. The fact that the kids play hard speaks more to their own qualities than to any motivation from the coach in my view.
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In 1987-88 (Dukiet and MU's worst in 50+ years) we were 10-18. We were 9-7 at home, 1-11 on the road, and 1-6 vs NCAA tournament teams. We had 3 wins against what I would call "cupcakes" (Canisius, Hartford and at Stetson). Other wins were against Xavier (26-4, NCAA), Northwestern, Miami, Fl, Wake Forest, Dayton, Air Force and Western Michigan.
This year we are 11-13, 8-6 at home, 2-1 (N) and 1-6 on the road. Based on current bracketology, we are 1-9 against NCAA tournament teams. We have 5 wins (Tenn. Martin, NJIT, Alabama A+M, North Dakota and Morgan State) and 1 loss (Omaha) against cupcakes, Other wins are against Georgia Tech, Tennessee, Arizona St, Providence, Creighton and at Seton Hall.
Summary: This year's team has a slightly better record and has played more top flight teams. They also played more cupcakes and 17/24 of their games on home or neutral courts (16/28 in 87-88).
Looking at it in context I'd say this year's team is, right now, a little better - but they're leaking oil. I don't expect them to lose out but if they do it's a coin flip.
I would agree with this Lenny. My only point was to remind people that this year was reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Dukiet had some good players, he was a bad coach. I sent many letters to Cords asking for a change in direction back then. But for people to say that our competition is SOOO much better is not necessarily so. We played lots of good programs back then, just like now. And we played cupcakes back then just like we do now. Now somebody defines cupcake as a team that does not make the dance. IMO, That is dumb. Can't remember, but back then maybe only half the number made the dance.
This year's team should be better than that 87-88 team with the talent we have. This year we have 7 top 100 guys, back then who knows? Different ranking systems now vs. then. If I were to guess, we probably had 3 top 100 players: Smith, Sims and possibly Reeder.
Anybody that wants to excuse this year's performance because competition is much greater, IMO is just grasping at straws. Our talent is better, but our record will likely be similar. To me, this year is reminiscent of Dukiet's teams--getting their ass handed to them when they should not. Is Wojo a better coach--he should be, and he has former good players on his staff, a greater budget, better connections, better resources, etc. Maybe some of our top 100 talent is exaggerated, based on their performance this year. I guess we can thank Buzz for much of what is going on this year.
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Please. This is all just to lay the groundwork for next years' theme: "Wojo can't develop talent." ::)
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Carlino was brought in to be the teams #1 scoring option and to take a bulk of the minutes at the point. He was running the point when the season began with JJJ at the 2. Unfortunately, Carlino proved to be a better player off the ball and JJJ simply wasn't getting it done, especially defensively, and Derrick, the team's best defender and only true PG, was eventually inserted into the starting line-up and JJJ came off the bench. Keep in mind that JJJ started the first 3 games of the season and then games 7-8. He was given an opportunity to take a big chunk of perimeter minutes but he didn't produce on both ends of the floor. Look at his numbers in those first 8 games...
20.3 min, 5.8 pts, 40.0/23.5/71.4, 1.6 reb, 1.3 asts, 1.4 TOs
(remove the UT-Martin opener and these numbers drop quite a bit)
JJJ had the chance but didn't take advantage of it. He has definitely played better in the last couple of games and will likely see his minutes increase as long as he continues to do so and continues to practice well. He still needs to gamble less on D and play more under control offensively, especially when he drives.
If you want to pin anything on Wojo, you can blame him for believing that Carlino could run the point and that JJJ would live up to his HS ranking. Neither of those happened and the coaching staff had to adjust.
Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG. Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to. And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107. We blew them out. WAs never a game. Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.
As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games. So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes? What explains this reduction? Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes. And what happens? With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home. That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).
Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin. 15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)
And then of course Arizona State, is Game 9, and our best win of the year and JJJ plays wonderfully.
So I could parse data and say that in our first 9 games, the only 3 in which JJJ got 30+ minutes he averaged 15.6ppg on 54.5% shooting.
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That is absolutely silly.
Marquette has had better success hiring coaches in the exact mold of Wojo, assistants at other top basketball schools, than hiring experienced coaches. Do you realize that Wojo is older, and has more experience than either Kevin O'Neill or Tom Crean do when Marquette hired them?
And are you saying the players aren't comfortable with Wojo now?
I had TW on ignore, but he was quoted. And, I concur with your question, Sultan. There were a few players ready to walk out the door at the end of last season. Wojo comes in, speaks to them, and none leave. Sounds exactly like they hired a coach the players felt comfortable with.
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I would agree with this Lenny. My only point was to remind people that this year was reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Dukiet had some good players, he was a bad coach. I sent many letters to Cords asking for a change in direction back then. But for people to say that our competition is SOOO much better is not necessarily so. We played lots of good programs back then, just like now. And we played cupcakes back then just like we do now. Now somebody defines cupcake as a team that does not make the dance. IMO, That is dumb. Can't remember, but back then maybe only half the number made the dance.
This year's team should be better than that 87-88 team with the talent we have. This year we have 7 top 100 guys, back then who knows? Different ranking systems now vs. then. If I were to guess, we probably had 3 top 100 players: Smith, Sims and possibly Reeder.
Anybody that wants to excuse this year's performance because competition is much greater, IMO is just grasping at straws. Our talent is better, but our record will likely be similar. To me, this year is reminiscent of Dukiet's teams--getting their ass handed to them when they should not. Is Wojo a better coach--he should be, and he has former good players on his staff, a greater budget, better connections, better resources, etc. Maybe some of our top 100 talent is exaggerated, based on their performance this year. I guess we can thank Buzz for much of what is going on this year.
One important factor that needs to be taken into the equation, is that Dukiet took over our program at a time that it was still in the after glow of being a blue blood. So those years were a huge trainwreck and it took us many years for the program to fully recover. Our program is strong enough now to absorb last years lousy performance. However, I am concerned that Wojo keeps on the Dukiet path and that we are sunk again for years.
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Outside of Xavier, Miami was the only win against a team who ended up with a winning record.
Yes, 2-12 against .500 or better non cupcakes. This year 5-11. Better, yes - but still awful. And I don't like the trend. We're 1-8 in our last 9 against .500+ teams and the 1 win was against a team that's imploded.
Right now we're better than that historically awful team. But when people suggest contextually that this year's team would have "wiped the floor" against that 87-88 schedule they're nuts. Maybe they're 13-15 or 14-14 but that's not much of a floor wiping.
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Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG. Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to. And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107. We blew them out. WAs never a game. Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.
As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games. So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes? What explains this reduction? Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes. And what happens? With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home. That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).
Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin. 15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)
And then of course Arizona State, is Game 9, and our best win of the year and JJJ plays wonderfully.
So I could parse data and say that in our first 9 games, the only 3 in which JJJ got 30+ minutes he averaged 15.6ppg on 54.5% shooting.
Arizona State definitely is not our best win of the year. Providence and Tennessee are better and Seton Hall probably is too.
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I had TW on ignore, but he was quoted. And, I concur with your question, Sultan. There were a few players ready to walk out the door at the end of last season. Wojo comes in, speaks to them, and none leave. Sounds exactly like they hired a coach the players felt comfortable with.
And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.
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Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG. Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to. And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107. We blew them out. WAs never a game. Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.
As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games. So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes? What explains this reduction? Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes. And what happens? With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home. That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).
Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin. 15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)
And then of course Arizona State, is Game 9, and our best win of the year and JJJ plays wonderfully.
So I could parse data and say that in our first 9 games, the only 3 in which JJJ got 30+ minutes he averaged 15.6ppg on 54.5% shooting.
I chose the first 8 games because JJJ was at least a part-time starter for those 8 games. Seems like a logical place to draw the line considering my point was that JJJ was given the opportunity to start but didn't take advantage of it. Also, I removed the stats chunk of my post about 30 seconds after I posted it because I didn't really think it was relevant.
Go ahead. Say the same things over and over and keep telling yourself that you're not completely and utterly clueless.
Apologies to others on this board for getting sucked back into Ners' nonsense.
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Arizona State definitely is not our best win of the year. Providence and Tennessee are better and Seton Hall probably is too.
MU's best win (in terms of RPI):
25 Providence
69 Seton Hall
83 Tennessee
99 Arizona State
104 Georgia Tech
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Maybe maturity is not the correct word. Wojo was in one specific basketball system for so many years that he does not have a broader perspective of things. I have seen this so many times in the business world. A guy comes from Big Company X to medium size company Y and the body rejects the organ.
OK, I can conceptually agree with you here. I guess we will have to wait to see if that is the case with Wojo, but frankly that may be the reason why Coach K's assistants haven't been wildly successful elsewhere. Diversity in background is important, and his disciples usually have not had that. Crean and O'Neill were both at multiple institutions as assistants before getting to MU.
Yes, I believe that the players are not comfortable with , and do not have much enthusiasm for Wojo because they don't trust him. Players want to know that the coach has their back. I don't see him as the type of coach that players will walk through walls for. Kids are often more insightful than they are given credit for. The fact that the kids play hard speaks more to their own qualities than to any motivation from the coach in my view.
Do you *know* this to be the case? Or are you merely speculating? If it is the latter, on what basis are you making that speculation?
I guess we will find out after the season is over, but it seems to me that if that is indeed the case, that a number of players might be leaving right?
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And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.
What about Carlino's history is checkered? That he was mocked and bullied so frequently by Reeves Nelson that he left UCLA?
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I had TW on ignore, but he was quoted. And, I concur with your question, Sultan. There were a few players ready to walk out the door at the end of last season. Wojo comes in, speaks to them, and none leave. Sounds exactly like they hired a coach the players felt comfortable with.
They bought in initially, yet 3 left within 7 months of the hire. Call it 2 players if you want to believe Mayo couldn't return/admin didn't allow him to return to the program.
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MU's best win (in terms of RPI):
25 Providence
69 Seton Hall
83 Tennessee
99 Arizona State
104 Georgia Tech
You could make a case for Providence win being the best win of the year - that I can go along with. To suggest Seton Hall and Tennessee were better than Arizona State is ludicrous. Ken Pom ratings are A LOT more relevant and accurate than RPI. You do know RPI had Green Bay as the Number 1 team in the country for awhile early this year, correct?
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And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.
Right. Marquette had way too many shooters. We were knee deep in them.
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Yes, I believe that the players are not comfortable with , and do not have much enthusiasm for Wojo because they don't trust him. Players want to know that the coach has their back. I don't see him as the type of coach that players will walk through walls for. Kids are often more insightful than they are given credit for. The fact that the kids play hard speaks more to their own qualities than to any motivation from the coach in my view.
All Wojo will do is put his hand through a wall to exemplify what he wants everyone to be united in accomplishing. If a player can't show even a smidgeon of that kind of dedication, then let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
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Right. Marquette had way too many shooters. We were knee deep in them.
Mayo, Duane, Burton, Dawson all had decent shots. JJJ is a slasher. Plenty of guard talent in my view didn't need any more.
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http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1987
87-88 Synopsis.
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Mayo, Duane, Burton, Dawson all had decent shots. JJJ is a slasher. Plenty of guard talent in my view didn't need any more.
Clown speak, bro.
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All Wojo will do is put his hand through a wall to exemplify what he wants everyone to be united in accomplishing. If a player can't show even a smidgeon of that kind of dedication, then let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
The players are all very dedicated to basketball. It is the most important thing in their life. Successful coaches understand the individual qualities in their players and draw them out.
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OK, I can conceptually agree with you here. I guess we will have to wait to see if that is the case with Wojo, but frankly that may be the reason why Coach K's assistants haven't been wildly successful elsewhere. Diversity in background is important, and his disciples usually have not had that. Crean and O'Neill were both at multiple institutions as assistants before getting to MU.
If this is true (Duke guys aren't diverse enough) then a lot of blame has to go on the assistant coaches. They all have different backgrounds and should speak up more rather than do exactly what Wojo is telling him. And I highly doubt Wojo is running the team like a dictatorship. I believe the communication is open and he's more than willing to listen to others. Example A, switching to zone.
A lot of people second guessing or calling out Wojo are going to look stupid the next couple years. We're going to be just fine.
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One important factor that needs to be taken into the equation, is that Dukiet took over our program at a time that it was still in the after glow of being a blue blood. So those years were a huge trainwreck and it took us many years for the program to fully recover. Our program is strong enough now to absorb last years lousy performance. However, I am concerned that Wojo keeps on the Dukiet path and that we are sunk again for years.
Well you better get your Prozac ready because Wojo is here to stay. Was at an event last evening with Dr. Lovell and he is 100% firmly behind Wojo. The adminstration absolutely loves him and all he is about.
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Slurpers.
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OK, I can conceptually agree with you here. I guess we will have to wait to see if that is the case with Wojo, but frankly that may be the reason why Coach K's assistants haven't been wildly successful elsewhere.
I'd give this more credence if Wojo didn't ditch the man defense, and vary the offense to fit his personnel.
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I would agree with this Lenny. My only point was to remind people that this year was reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Dukiet had some good players, he was a bad coach. I sent many letters to Cords asking for a change in direction back then. But for people to say that our competition is SOOO much better is not necessarily so. We played lots of good programs back then, just like now. And we played cupcakes back then just like we do now. Now somebody defines cupcake as a team that does not make the dance. IMO, That is dumb. Can't remember, but back then maybe only half the number made the dance.
Ok I was loose with my cupcake term but many of those teams that we consider good now weren't then. WI was awful back then :) (just 12-16 that season) - and the tourney was 64 teams at that time
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http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1987
87-88 Synopsis.
Wow--7 Freshmen that year. No wonder the team had problems. A couple of those turned out to be pretty good.
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And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.
And this is the true source of your disdain for Wojo. You, for whatever reason, are a fan of John Dawson's. He brought in Carlino, who was the best available player who would be immediately eligible and played at a position that was obviously are biggest weakness last season. It was a no brainer recruiting decision. But it resulted in your favorite player being regulated the back of the bench.
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Mayo, Duane, Burton, Dawson all had decent shots. JJJ is a slasher. Plenty of guard talent in my view didn't need any more.
Mayo, Duane, and Dawson all are around 30% 3P shooters. Carlino is 42%. Burton made 4 threes the season before. I can understand why Wojo wanted a shooter.
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Do you *know* this to be the case? Or are you merely speculating? If it is the latter, on what basis are you making that speculation?
I agree. TW, you've been asked repeatedly by many on this board to tell us why what you spew is not pure conjecture. You ignore it every time. If you don't know it as fact, don't state it as fact. If you are connected with the program in some way (or were until a player left), you shouldn't be posting on this board.
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I chose the first 8 games because JJJ was at least a part-time starter for those 8 games. Seems like a logical place to draw the line considering my point was that JJJ was given the opportunity to start but didn't take advantage of it. Also, I removed the stats chunk of my post about 30 seconds after I posted it because I didn't really think it was relevant.
Go ahead. Say the same things over and over and keep telling yourself that you're not completely and utterly clueless.
Apologies to others on this board for getting sucked back into Ners' nonsense.
Not sure why you are getting upset over what I posted. It was level-headed and relevant. I would appreciate if you would go through my post (copied and pasted here), and just expalin to me where I'm completely and utterly clueless and full of nonsense? I don't feel this is crazy as a rebuttal to your notion that Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG but "couldn't," due to JJJ essentially not playing well:
Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG. Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to? Why? And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107. We blew them out. WAs never a game. Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.
As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games. So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes? What explains this reduction? Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes. And what happens? With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home. That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).
Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin. 15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)
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Well you better get your Prozac ready because Wojo is here to stay. Was at an event last evening with Dr. Lovell and he is 100% firmly behind Wojo. The adminstration absolutely loves him and all he is about.
Glad to hear that Dr. Lovell is 100% behind Wojo. He should be because he was hired less than 1 year ago. But then, what would you expect him to say: "Wojo is in trouble"? Don't think you would hear that from any administration this early.
We should have a good idea about Wojo by the end of next season, when we see another recruiting class, and how the team improves next year.
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They bought in initially, yet 3 left within 7 months of the hire. Call it 2 players if you want to believe Mayo couldn't return/admin didn't allow him to return to the program.
Agreed that is the situation. But the original statement from TW indicated that the administration hired a coach that the players weren't comfortable with back in the spring. If that was they case, players would have left. True, they may or may not any longer feel comfortable with Wojo, but at least at the time of the hire, they did feel comfortable with him. TW's statement was erroneous.
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Mayo, Duane, and Dawson all are around 30% 3P shooters. Carlino is 42%. Burton made 4 threes the season before. I can understand why Wojo wanted a shooter.
Carlino was 35% from 3 last season. He's had a nice improvement this season. Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at, it will affect the players at that position perception of the head coach. They aren't dumb - they know a transfer like that is going to come in and practically get 30 minutes regardless. That limits their minute opportunities. Carlino wasn't "in the family" when Wojo took over and preached family and togetherness at the time of his hire.
Having said all of this, I'm not against Wojo having brought Carlino in to the fold. He's talented. However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo? That would be a bit naive.
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Glad to hear that Dr. Lovell is 100% behind Wojo. He should be because he was hired less than 1 year ago. But then, what would you expect him to say: "Wojo is in trouble"? Don't think you would hear that from any administration this early.
We should have a good idea about Wojo by the end of next season, when we see another recruiting class, and how the team improves next year.
You'd think you wouldn't have to clarify the original post with this disclaimer - but good job Willie. To think that because Lovell said at a function last night that he's 100% behind Wojo at this time,means jack, is silly.
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And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.
You're right, he should have stuck with JJJ as the 3 point shooter
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Carlino was 35% from 3 last season. He's had a nice improvement this season. Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at, it will affect the players at that position perception of the head coach. They aren't dumb - they know a transfer like that is going to come in and practically get 30 minutes regardless. That limits their minute opportunities. Carlino wasn't "in the family" when Wojo took over and preached family and togetherness at the time of his hire.
Having said all of this, I'm not against Wojo having brought Carlino in to the fold. He's talented. However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo? That would be a bit naive.
Guy, come on, this is just a lie. And other than pure stubbornness, I don't see any legitimacy to this claim you and Texas Western have repeatedly been making over the last six weeks.
PG wasn't a position Marquette was deep at in 13-14 and it wasn't a position Marquette was deep at going into 14-15. By the way, it's a position Marquette won't be deep at in 15-16 either as things stand now.
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Excuses are only good for the person who makes them. They don't do me any good.
It's incredible to me to read the length you go to, to paint such a bleak picture of what Wojo walked into.
I go to quite a short length. I state simple facts about our program. We missed the NIT last season. From that team we lost 72% of our offense. We replaced that 72% with a former top 100 redshirt freshman, a graduate transfer, and a top 100 true freshman. We had 9 players available to start the season. We had no one taller than Steve Taylor on our roster. We had one guy on our team with a career 3 pt% of 30% or more (5 3PM miniumum). We were picked to finish in the bottom three of the conference by every major poll. Does this sound like a winning formula to you?
I will acknowledge that we had 7 former top 100 players if you acknowledge all of the other barriers Wojo was faced with when he took over.
Duane, JJJ, Burton and Luke are all Top 60 recruits
Luke was #88. Small correction. He was also unavailable to start the season.
It's on Wojo to coach that development, as the talent is there.
This I agree with. Where I disagree is that development didn't happen. Every player on our roster is a significantly better player than they were last season with two exceptions: Dawson and Burton. Dawson was last on a depth chart with plenty of guards, so he didn't play. Burton was dealing with an off the court tragedy and was forced to play out of position at the 4 and was clearly struggling.
It's fine to say this roster could have been a winner. That's a fair argument. But at least acknowledge all the barriers that were present to keeping the team from being a winner.
You say you don't accept excuses. To me, the above are limitations, not excuses. Wojo acknowledges that are bad and that it is not acceptable. It would be an excuse if he hid behind the limitations. He doesn't.
It's funny that you say you don't accept excuses. Because you give your favorite players a lot of them.
Dawson needs 10 minutes to get in the groove of the game, that's why he doesn't play well. EXCUSE
Mayo can't play to his full potential because he's afraid he'll get pulled. EXCUSE
Burton's upset that Derrick has a longer leash than he does. EXCUSE
JjJ needs 25 minutes in a game or he won't be able to perform. EXCUSE
Personally, I don't think the players actually hide behind these excuses like you make them out to. But you are ready to make plenty of excuses for them.
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You're right, he should have stuck with JJJ as the 3 point shooter
Would be no more laughable than playing a 43% FT shooting PG more minutes than any other player on the team - that also has made exactly 1, 2point FG that wasn't a layup through 23 games. And one guy is a sophomore.
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Carlino was 35% from 3 last season. He's had a nice improvement this season. Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at, it will affect the players at that position perception of the head coach. They aren't dumb - they know a transfer like that is going to come in and practically get 30 minutes regardless. That limits their minute opportunities. Carlino wasn't "in the family" when Wojo took over and preached family and togetherness at the time of his hire.
Having said all of this, I'm not against Wojo having brought Carlino in to the fold. He's talented. However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo? That would be a bit naive.
Yep, there's nothing players hate more than when a coach brings in a guy who can help them win ::)
If the coach brings in someone who plays your position and could potentially take your minutes, do you what's a good solution? Get better!
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Guy, come on, this is just a lie. And other than pure stubbornness, I don't see any legitimacy to this claim you and Texas Western have repeatedly been making over the last six weeks.
PG wasn't a position Marquette was deep at in 13-14 and it wasn't a position Marquette was deep at going into 14-15. By the way, it's a position Marquette won't be deep at in 15-16 either as things stand now.
I was saying it from the perspective of Carlino being another guard. And, unfortunately Wojo decided to cast him as a 2 guard, and not our PG, even though that was clearly the position of HUGE weakness for us last season.
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Carlino was 35% from 3 last season.
35% and hit more three pointers than the other four combined. % is important but so is volume.
Obviously you bring in a 1-Year rental at a position you are already pretty deep at,
However to say that bringing in an outsider at a position of depth wouldn't affect the perception the players at those positions had toward Wojo? That would be a bit naive.
That's not what I was saying. I'm aware that it would affect the players. What I was arguing against was TW's (and now your) claim that we were deep at the position. One, PG was our weakest position in 13-14, even we were deep, the depth wasn't good. Two, its not just about positions, it's about roles. You need snipers to be successful. The cupboard was bare in that regard.
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Wow--7 Freshmen that year. No wonder the team had problems. A couple of those turned out to be pretty good.
Yeah, having attended MU during that dark period I can say that close up the team was even more awful than their record. The talent was almost all in the underclassmen, and the bigs were Rod Grosse -- possibly the worst basketball player I have ever seen at MU until Mbao-- and the soon to be ineligible Joe Nethen -- possible the least intelligent basketball player I have ever seen. I played at the Rec Center with Nethen (alas, unlike Ners I didn't dunk, instead I blew out my ACL) and dumb doesn't begin to describe him.
Only Trevor Powell and Tony Smith kept that team from being something like 4-24.
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Yeah, having attended MU during that dark period I can say that close up the team was even more awful than their record. The talent was almost all in the underclassmen, and the bigs were Rod Grosse -- possibly the worst basketball player I have ever seen at MU until Mbao-- and the soon to be ineligible Joe Nethen -- possible the least intelligent basketball player I have ever seen. I played at the Rec Center with Nethen (alas, unlike Ners I didn't dunk, instead I blew out my ACL) and dumb doesn't begin to describe him.
Only Trevor Powell and Tony Smith kept that team from being something like 4-24.
So playing more talented underclassmen can help teams win more games, than riding the "trusty" vets?
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So, we're going to harp on Wojo for bringing in Carlino because it might/might not have "rocked the boat"?
Do we harp on every coach for recruiting a high ranked player who may be better than players on the team?
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So playing more talented underclassmen can help teams win more games, than riding the "trusty" vets?
Of course...but not all "talented underclassmen" are created equal.
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Of course...but not all "talented underclassmen" are created equal.
Yeah, I don't think there is a nine-year NBA veteran on the Marquette team right now...like Tony Smith.
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I go to quite a short length. I state simple facts about our program. We missed the NIT last season. From that team we lost 72% of our offense. We replaced that 72% with a former top 100 redshirt freshman, a graduate transfer, and a top 100 true freshman. We had 9 players available to start the season. We had no one taller than Steve Taylor on our roster. We had one guy on our team with a career 3 pt% of 30% or more (5 3PM miniumum). We were picked to finish in the bottom three of the conference by every major poll. Does this sound like a winning formula to you?
I will acknowledge that we had 7 former top 100 players if you acknowledge all of the other barriers Wojo was faced with when he took over.
Luke was #88. Small correction. He was also unavailable to start the season.
This I agree with. Where I disagree is that development didn't happen. Every player on our roster is a significantly better player than they were last season with two exceptions: Dawson and Burton. Dawson was last on a depth chart with plenty of guards, so he didn't play. Burton was dealing with an off the court tragedy and was forced to play out of position at the 4 and was clearly struggling.
It's fine to say this roster could have been a winner. That's a fair argument. But at least acknowledge all the barriers that were present to keeping the team from being a winner.
You say you don't accept excuses. To me, the above are limitations, not excuses. Wojo acknowledges that are bad and that it is not acceptable. It would be an excuse if he hid behind the limitations. He doesn't.
It's funny that you say you don't accept excuses. Because you give your favorite players a lot of them.
Dawson needs 10 minutes to get in the groove of the game, that's why he doesn't play well. EXCUSE
Mayo can't play to his full potential because he's afraid he'll get pulled. EXCUSE
Burton's upset that Derrick has a longer leash than he does. EXCUSE
JjJ needs 25 minutes in a game or he won't be able to perform. EXCUSE
Personally, I don't think the players actually hide behind these excuses like you make them out to. But you are ready to make plenty of excuses for them.
TAMU -
Well done. Some here seem obtuse (intentionally or otherwise).
goinUptown
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There were no better upperclassmen. Foley was serviceable, the Juan Anderson of his day. Sims was suspended. Reeder and Nethen were ineligible. Rod Grosse wasn't great. Ellenson pere' transferred.
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Yeah, I don't think there is a nine-year NBA veteran on the Marquette team right now...like Tony Smith.
Only because we don't give them 25+ minutes a game, though.
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Of course...but not all "talented underclassmen" are created equal.
And of course not all upperclassmen they are bench behind are created equal as well...
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Only because we don't give them 25+ minutes a game, though.
Connie - I'm sure you are bright enough to know that giving a player 25 minutes doesn't guarantee anything. Let's fact it, Derrick Wilson has about 45 games that show 25+ can't guarantee squat. But, when history for a different player in a sample size of 7 games shows that in those 7 opportunities, they perform solidly - it isn't wild to think they will perform solidly moving forward given 25+ minutes per game.
The reality is talented players are going to give you more production than non-talented guys. Period. I certainly hope you aren't going to argue Derrick Wilson is more talented at basketball than JJJ? Why max Derrick's minutes and in so doing limit JJJ's? Again, Carlino and Duane could have been made PG from the beginning of the season. We certainly didn't flounder against UT Martin with Carlino running PG. He dished out 7 assists.
Wojo wanted Derrick running PG. That was his call to make as a head coach, and it isn't out of question to call into judgment that decision-making. Maxing the time of Derrick, Matt and Duane came at the expense of JJJ. Again using the roster resource available to a coach - my view would have been that the team would have been better maxing minutes of Matt, Duane, JJJ from the start and returning Derrick to the role EVERY Marquette fan knows he is best suited for: 10-15 high energy backup.
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Connie - I'm sure you are bright enough to know that giving a player 25 minutes doesn't guarantee anything. Let's fact it, Derrick Wilson has about 45 games that show 25+ can't guarantee squat. But, when history for a different player in a sample size of 7 games shows that in those 7 opportunities, they perform solidly - it isn't wild to think they will perform solidly moving forward given 25+ minutes per game.
The reality is talented players are going to give you more production than non-talented guys. Period. I certainly hope you aren't going to argue Derrick Wilson is more talented at basketball than JJJ? Why max Derrick's minutes and in so doing limit JJJ's? Again, Carlino and Duane could have been made PG from the beginning of the season. We certainly didn't flounder against UT Martin with Carlino running PG. He dished out 7 assists.
Wojo wanted Derrick running PG. That was his call to make as a head coach, and it isn't out of question to call into judgment that decision-making. Maxing the time of Derrick, Matt and Duane came at the expense of JJJ. Again using the roster resource available to a coach - my view would have been that the team would have been better maxing minutes of Matt, Duane, JJJ from the start and returning Derrick to the role EVERY Marquette fan knows he is best suited for: 10-15 high energy backup.
Yeah, it might have been a cheap shot and I'm sorry for that, but it was easy, it was funny and it was on point, so I couldn't help myself. I know I need to take my own advice and stop feeding the pigeons.
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I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours. We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.
Hey does everybody remember that time that Texas Western wrote something intelligent, insightful and truthful. Me neither.
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You guys are idiots. Doc Rivers, who has played and coached at the very highest levels of basketball, hired Wojo and he's a GREAT hire. This is a person who coached Rivers' son!
We're people expecting good things this year? I know who wasn't...Buzz Williams.
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You guys are idiots. Doc Rivers, who has played and coached at the very highest levels of basketball, hired Wojo and he's a GREAT hire. This is a person who coached Rivers' son!
We're people expecting good things this year? I know who wasn't...Buzz Williams.
Care to wager Wojo won't exceed Crean in wins first 5 years on the job? I mean I know how much admiration you have for Tom Crean and what a POS person/coach you think he is. Clearly, Wojo should be able to exceed a guy who walked into a program with no Top 100 players in the program at the time of his arrival.
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Care to wager Wojo won't exceed Crean in wins first 5 years on the job? I mean I know how much admiration you have for Tom Crean and what a POS person/coach you think he is. Clearly, Wojo should be able to exceed a guy who walked into a program with no Top 100 players in the program at the time of his arrival.
Well unless henry gives us two Wade like years then it's kind of an unfair comparison. Id be willing to bet given the same tenure Wojo exceeds Crean in victories though.
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Well unless henry gives us two Wade like years then it's kind of an unfair comparison. Id be willing to bet given the same tenure Wojo exceeds Crean in victories though.
Well Buzz exceed Crean's win total in his first 5 years on the job by about 20, and Buzz didn't exactly have a D-Wade or McDonald's All American coming to campus in his 5 years on the job. Plus the performance of Crean and Buzz raised the stature of the program, once again give it national relevance.
Though I probably would take your bet anyway in the event Wojo is here 9 years - I don't feel he will exceed Crean.
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Trouble in Traditional River City...