MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on May 08, 2012, 03:28:07 AM
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As the BE football and basketball teams argue over money, we get this rash of stories in the last four or five days ....
Why College Football Should Be Banned
The costs are high, the benefits to students are low, argues Buzz Bissinger. And academics pay the price
By BUZZ BISSINGER
Mr. Bissinger is the author of "Friday Night Lights." He will participate in a debate Tuesday evening at New York University, sponsored by Intelligence Squared, in which he and Malcolm Gladwell will argue that college football should be banned.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304743704577382292376194220.html
The bone-shattering truth: U.S. football is doomed
Junior Seau's apparent suicide drives the point home
May 04, 2012|John Kass
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-04/news/ct-met-kass-0504-20120504_1_apparent-suicide-dave-duerson-head-injury
Kurt Warner would prefer his sons not play football
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/03/kurt-warner-would-prefer-his-sons-not-play-football/
How many more deaths can NFL fans take?
By SAM MELLINGER
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/05/02/3589935/how-many-more-deaths-can-nfl-fans.html
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In this day and age, there are things more important than academics, health, or a long life, and the thing that stands out as most important is the almighty dollar. As long as the BCS can generate hundreds of millions of dollars, college football will continue. Any consequences of that will be written off as acceptable losses.
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In this day and age, there are things more important than academics, health, or a long life, and the thing that stands out as most important is the almighty dollar. As long as the BCS can generate hundreds of millions of dollars, college football will continue. Any consequences of that will be written off as acceptable losses.
If everything that has happened at Penn State isn't proof of this, nothing is.
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Congress will exempt college football from injury related lawsuits long before it is banned.
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Congress will exempt college football from injury related lawsuits long before it is banned.
Possibly -- if it means preventing public institutions from having to dole out hundreds of millions in lawsuit payments.
But I can also see college sports coming under the knife from PC administrators who have always had a bit of a thing for male sports. (Eg. wrestling at Marquette.) Not entirely unreasonably, I'll add.
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But I can also see college sports coming under the knife from PC administrators who have always had a bit of a thing for male sports. (Eg. wrestling at Marquette.) Not entirely unreasonably, I'll add.
It has nothing to do with PC administrators and everything to do with Title IX.
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It has nothing to do with PC administrators and everything to do with Title IX.
Okay, captain obvious, it's PC administrators ruthlessly promoting Title IX.
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But I can also see college sports coming under the knife from PC administrators who have always had a bit of a thing for male sports. (Eg. wrestling at Marquette.) Not entirely unreasonably, I'll add.
Not football. Never football. Not in this country. It's too inherently American. If you were sitting down to make a list of things this country holds most dear, I have to imagine football would be in the top-ten, if not the top-five. Communities rally around high school teams, states rally around college teams, and the NFL provides unifying bases for not just cities, but entire regions in some cases.
Wal-Mart, Puritanism, Hollywood, McDonald's food, and the NFL...these are the new things America is founded on. That sport will never ever ever come under the knife. It's too important from not only a financial and entertainment perspective, but from a sheer pride perspective. It's uniquely American, we're the only people that play it, and we're the only people that care about it, which makes it that much more important to us. The NFL may want to expand globally, but just like there's little interest for soccer inside the US, there's little interest for the NFL outside it. And because of that it will always be our protected baby.
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Tyler Cowen speculated on what the end of Football would look like.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7559458/cte-concussion-crisis-economic-look-end-football
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it's PC administrators ruthlessly promoting Title IX.
...along with any reasonable person with a daughter, sister, niece, etc that values athletics as part of the educational experience?
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...along with any reasonable person with a daughter, sister, niece, etc that values athletics as part of the educational experience?
How does one play sports in a kitchen? I imagine that could get quite dangerous.
/low hanging fruit'd
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But I can also see college sports coming under the knife from PC administrators who have always had a bit of a thing for male sports. (Eg. wrestling at Marquette.) Not entirely unreasonably, I'll add.
It is one thing for athletic departments to get rid of sports with niche audiences (like wrestling), but big time college football is very different.
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Just to play devils advocate ...
100 years ago the biggest sport going was boxing. It remained the top sport for 70 years. Then the constant complaints about violence and injury got it banned in many places (not Vegas) and now the sport is fraction of what it used to be.
Same thing with Indy car racing, it was really popular until a rash of driver deaths in the 1970s turned off the public. (NASCAR is popular now precisely because they go out of their way to protect the drivers and NASCAR officials will tell you the sports was almost killed off by Dale Earnhardt's death in 2001.)
More Dave Duerson and Juniour Seau type of incidents, not to mention Eric Legrand, and the public will be constantly bombarded with the idea that football is a brutal savage sport that civilized people do not watch.
I agree Football is going no where NOW. But a few more of these incidents and it will be as popular as boxing before you know.
Better question, is football's popularity peaking now and soon to begin a gradual slide?
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Okay, captain obvious, it's PC administrators ruthlessly promoting Title IX.
There is no need to promote a law that has been on the books for years.
I don't get it. Women shouldn't have as many sports options as men?
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Not football. Never football. Not in this country. It's too inherently American. If you were sitting down to make a list of things this country holds most dear, I have to imagine football would be in the top-ten, if not the top-five. Communities rally around high school teams, states rally around college teams, and the NFL provides unifying bases for not just cities, but entire regions in some cases.
Go back in history and see that 135,000 packed Chicago's Soldier Field in 1927 for the Tunney/Dempsey "long-count fight." Boxing will never regain that kind of popularity again.
The 1950s was the "golden era" of baseball. It will never have a golden era like that again.
The 1972 Olympics were the most watch TV event at that time, it broke the record of the 1968 Olympics. Olympics are no longer a dominant sport in this country.
Professional football did not take hold as a major sport until the 1960s. It is a relatively new sport. It is the top of the cycle now. The question is "for how long?"
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The difference is that none of those were uniquely American. Certainly not boxing nor the Olympics. Baseball was, but it's become less "our sport" as Americans become a minority to Latin Anerican and Asian imports. Maybe some day, maybe, football will fall, but in a country that has an obsessive, almost god-given feeling of right to be number one, football is the one place where no one else can compete. If that changes, its place in our society may change with it. But I don't expect that in the next 5, 10, or 20 years, and probably not in my lifetime.
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It'll never be banned. Period. Anyone who thinks so is deluded. The only ones who could ban it are Congress, and they want to get reelected too much. In related news, prohibition is not coming back either.
The escalating commercialization will eventually lead to paying players, and that will make some schools wish that it had been banned.
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If we look at football as a bubble, I think we are at the peak. Not much higher to go if at all, and we know from history that tastes change and sports popularity is always in flux. Just look at where golf was 10 years ago versus today. Next step for golf is fewer people are taking it up or paying attention, so the slide continues.
Rule changes to protect players will lesson the game and the enforcement of those rules will mean slowdown in games and many player suspensions. They probably crack down even more on artificial drugs in an attempt to keep players smaller.
Football will be around for a long time, but my guess is it will be a lot less popular in 20 years than it is today. The economics will dictate that those that overinvest in it during the bubble will pay a steep economic price. How many major programs won't be so major in 20 years?
If the TV model changes to go away from cable and networks in the next 20 years, which it may/will, then it could be Hiroshima on football.
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Go back in history and see that 135,000 packed Chicago's Soldier Field in 1927 for the Tunney/Dempsey "long-count fight." Boxing will never regain that kind of popularity again.
The 1950s was the "golden era" of baseball. It will never have a golden era like that again.
The 1972 Olympics were the most watch TV event at that time, it broke the record of the 1968 Olympics. Olympics are no longer a dominant sport in this country.
Professional football did not take hold as a major sport until the 1960s. It is a relatively new sport. It is the top of the cycle now. The question is "for how long?"
The height of the interest in the Olympics was when they were serving as the proxy war between the Communist block and the West during the Cold War. The end of the Cold War meant the end of the inflated importance of the Olympics.
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There is no need to promote a law that has been on the books for years.
I don't get it. Women shouldn't have as many sports options as men?
There are many laws on the books for years that our gov't chooses not to enforce. One was argued in front of the Supreme Court two weeks ago in US vs Arizona.
Women should have the same options as men, but let us not pretend that because a law is on the books there is enforcement of that law.
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Go back in history and see that 135,000 packed Chicago's Soldier Field in 1927 for the Tunney/Dempsey "long-count fight." Boxing will never regain that kind of popularity again.
The 1950s was the "golden era" of baseball. It will never have a golden era like that again.
The 1972 Olympics were the most watch TV event at that time, it broke the record of the 1968 Olympics. Olympics are no longer a dominant sport in this country.
Professional football did not take hold as a major sport until the 1960s. It is a relatively new sport. It is the top of the cycle now. The question is "for how long?"
Your dates and knowledge on boxing are way off. Boxing was very relavent to the national landscape as recently as the 70s(Ali, Frasier, etc), 80s, and early 90s(Tyson, etc). Its only been in the last 20 years that boxing has fallen apart and I'd argue that is a lot more about the organization and administration of boxing than injuries. Sure the way Ali is now doesn't help anything but boxing shot themselves in the foot. Football could do the same thing but injuries won't be the thing that shuts them down.
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There is no need to promote a law that has been on the books for years.
I don't get it. Women shouldn't have as many sports options as men?
Huh? Why do you think women shouldn't have as many options?
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The height of the interest in the Olympics was when they were serving as the proxy war between the Communist block and the West during the Cold War. The end of the Cold War meant the end of the inflated importance of the Olympics.
And when there wasn't as many options for televised sports.
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Your dates and knowledge on boxing are way off. Boxing was very relavent to the national landscape as recently as the 70s(Ali, Frasier, etc), 80s, and early 90s(Tyson, etc). Its only been in the last 20 years that boxing has fallen apart and I'd argue that is a lot more about the organization and administration of boxing than injuries. Sure the way Ali is now doesn't help anything but boxing shot themselves in the foot. Football could do the same thing but injuries won't be the thing that shuts them down.
Right. They went for the short-term gain of pay per view telecasts at the expense of developing their long-term fan based.
And having a dozen sanctioning bodies with 800 weight classes doesn't help either.
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And when there wasn't as many options for televised sports.
Right, I mean for god sake perhaps the greatest sporting event in US history was shown on TAPE DELAY. Think about that in this day and age.
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Right. They went for the short-term gain of pay per view telecasts at the expense of developing their long-term fan based.
And having a dozen sanctioning bodies with 800 weight classes doesn't help either.
Completely agree
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The height of the interest in the Olympics was when they were serving as the proxy war between the Communist block and the West during the Cold War. The end of the Cold War meant the end of the inflated importance of the Olympics.
+1 - The Olympics were a lot more fun when you hated the Eastern bloc countries. Even if everything else was equal in terms of the age, experience and track record of both teams, the USA beating USSR in hockey wouldn't resonate 10% as much today as it did back then.
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Huh? Why do you think women shouldn't have as many options?
I thought I was asking you that.
There are many laws on the books for years that our gov't chooses not to enforce. One was argued in front of the Supreme Court two weeks ago in US vs Arizona.
Women should have the same options as men, but let us not pretend that because a law is on the books there is enforcement of that law.
So you think that administrators should (and would!) be able to get away with not enforcing title IX?
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Just to play devils advocate ...
100 years ago the biggest sport going was boxing. It remained the top sport for 70 years. Then the constant complaints about violence and injury got it banned in many places (not Vegas) and now the sport is fraction of what it used to be.
Violence didn't hurt boxing. The fracturing of the sport into too many wight divisions fighting after too many meaningless belts with champions who take on a real challenge maybe once every three fights (or about once every 18-24 months) is what's killed boxing. People will still come out in droves for a quality fight (see PPV buys from recent Mayweather fights or 40,000+ fans who've paid ridiculous ticket prices to see Pacquiao in Cowboys Stadium).
If violence were an issue among sports fans, how does one explain the raging popularity of MMA?
Same thing with Indy car racing, it was really popular until a rash of driver deaths in the 1970s turned off the public. (NASCAR is popular now precisely because they go out of their way to protect the drivers and NASCAR officials will tell you the sports was almost killed off by Dale Earnhardt's death in 2001.)
The decline of Indy Car racing had nothing to do with driver deaths, and didn't happen in the 1970s. It's the result of the greedy owner of the Indianapolis Speedway trying to start his own "league" in the mid 90s, which split the best, most popular drivers into two factions that competed everywhere but on the race track and dwindled the sport's interest and popularity.
The next time someone turns away from a car race because of a crash will be the first.
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Intentional soccer has about as many games/leagues and shaky finances as boxing and/or Indy car. FIFA is as poorly run as the WBC and/or CART. None of that matters to the fans. Maybe because no one dies on the pitch.
Do not underestimate how death and cast a pall over a sport and change its perception. When/if MMA fighters start dying, that sport is done too.
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Right. They went for the short-term gain of pay per view telecasts at the expense of developing their long-term fan based.
And having a dozen sanctioning bodies with 800 weight classes doesn't help either.
AS a I said above ....
You also have a good description of FIFA and that has not hurt soccer. Maybe because no one has died on the pitch.
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Intentional soccer has about as many games/leagues and shaky finances as boxing and/or Indy car. FIFA is as poorly run as the WBC and/or CART. None of that matters to the fans. Maybe because no one dies on the pitch.
Do not underestimate how death and cast a pall over a sport and change its perception. When/if MMA fighters start dying, that sport is done too.
I think that first line there is about as inaccurate a statement as you could make. FIFA may be corrupt, but they're not hurting at all financially. There may be individual teams, even leagues, in trouble, but the overall governing body is making money hand over fist, and probably has more corrupt money flowing through the system than the NCAA schools do. And there have been deaths on the pitch. Going back to 2007, 22 players around the world have died on a soccer pitch, primarily from cardiac arrest. Most notably, Antonio Puerta of Sevilla in Spain, Daniel Jarque of Espanyol in Spain, and Piermario Morisini of Livorno in Italy. What's interesting is how sharply the numbers have risen recently, 44 deaths recorded since 2000, 38 recorded in the entire century from 1900-1999.
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If a sport is popular, it is hard to kill it. Arguing the problem with boxing is too many champions and weight classes is the reason for its lack of popularity (relative to say 30 to 50 years ago) is wrong. Boxing is losing its popularity because sports fans are less interested in boxing and nothing Don King/WBC do can to change that. Roger Goodell could run the WBC and Boxing popularity would not change at all.
Why are fans leaving? It is not because their are 75 champions. I would argue boxing has a perception of being uncivilized because of deaths in the ring.
If you want to know what a death in the ring can do to a sport, see the November 1982 death of Duk Koo Kim by Ran Mancini in November 1982. I would argue boxing never recovered from that incident.
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Brew, as you noted, FIFA is corrupt. That's what I said. The sport cannot modernize (instant replay) so bad calls ruin the world cup. Most of the teams in the premiership are teetering financially and three teams are so dominant (Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal) have won all but the 1994 premiership championship.
According to everyone here, a corrupt organizing body , poorly financed and three teams winning everything while everyone sucks would kill a sport. Instead premiership and soccer overall has never been better. (also note I never said FIFA was not making money. I said teams and leagues are not making money. I said FIFA was poorly run. Your response supports both of these contentions.)
Conversely, the NFL is soaring in popularity and nothing the owners do can kill it now. What COULD change that is the perception that players are dying for the game. It is that kind of perception, when it takes hold, that can change the fortunes of a sport. The NFL is AT RISK of a change in perception in the aftermath of Junior Seau's death.
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If a sport is popular, it is hard to kill it. Arguing the problem with boxing is too many champions and weight classes is the reason for its lack of popularity (relative to say 30 to 50 years ago) is wrong. Boxing is losing its popularity because sports fans are less interested in boxing and nothing Don King/WBC do can to change that. Roger Goodell could run the WBC and Boxing popularity would not change at all.
Why are fans leaving? It is not because their are 75 champions. I would argue boxing has a perception of being uncivilized because of deaths in the ring.
If you want to know what a death in the ring can do to a sport, see the November 1982 death of Duk Koo Kim by Ran Mancini in November 1982. I would argue boxing never recovered from that incident.
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Brew, as you noted, FIFA is corrupt. That's what I said. The sport cannot modernize (instant replay) so bad calls ruin the world cup. Most of the teams in the premiership are teetering financially and three teams are so dominant (Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal) have won all but the 1994 premiership championship.
According to everyone here, a corrupt organizing body , poorly financed and three teams winning everything while everyone sucks would kill a sport. Instead premiership and soccer overall has never been better. (also note I never said FIFA was not making money. I said teams and leagues are not making money. I said FIFA was poorly run. Your response supports both of these contentions.)
Conversely, the NFL is soaring in popularity and nothing the owners do can kill it now. What COULD change that is the perception that players are dying for the game. It is that kind of perception, when it takes hold, that can change the fortunes of a sport. The NFL is AT RISK of a change in perception in the aftermath of Junior Seau's death.
Personally, I don't think you could be more wrong in comparing FIFA to Boxing. FIFA is corrupt but is basically just a rules committee and World Cup organizer. EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, etc are all in charge of their organizations and are semi-autonomous. Plus there is clear organization and heirarchy as to who is where. Its not like Real Madrid can run off, create its own cup and then say that cup was better than UEFA champions cup or something.
Boxing didn't come unhinged until the late 90s and 2000s and there were plenty of deaths in boxing prior. Hell, your own example occurred in 1982 and Mike Tyson was a dominate fixture in sports and boxing as recently as the 90s
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I'd like to see one shred of evidence that its death's and not an organizational issue. Until we see that on either side we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Boxing didn't come unhinged until the late 90s and 2000s and there were plenty of deaths in boxing prior. Hell, your own example occurred in 1982 and Mike Tyson was a dominate fixture in sports and boxing as recently as the 90s
Google how popular is boxing and here is the first response
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_popular_is_boxing
Answer:
Boxing is still very popular around the world. Popularity in the US has declined in 40 years or so due to other sports such as the rise of UFC and because of injuries.
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The typical fan response is owners and sport organizations are a bunch of idiots and every sport would as popular as the NFL if they only had competent rich people running it.
Fact is sport popularity is cyclical and owners cannot do much about it. The NFL was not very popular in the 1950s and 1960s and some point in the future (maybe 50 years, maybe 10) it will be less popular.
Everyone likes action, no one like deaths. The rash of deaths in Indy car and boxing hurt their popularity.
Boxing's popularity was long-term bear market when Tyson was at the top. It might have blipped higher for a few years but its popularity is was nowhere near what it was when Joe Louis or Ali were champs (over even Jack Johnson for that matter).
Regarding Duk Doo Kim, that was devastating for the sport ....
November 13, 1982
When the fighters came out for the 14th round, Mancini charged forward and hit Kim with a right. Kim reeled back, Mancini missed with a left, and then Mancini hit Kim with another hard right hand. Kim went flying into the ropes, his head hitting the canvas hard. Kim managed to rise unsteadily to his feet, but referee Richard Green stopped the fight and Mancini was declared the winner by TKO nineteen seconds into the 14th round.[2]
Minutes after the fight was over, Kim collapsed into a coma, and was taken out of the Caesars Palace arena on a stretcher. Emergency brain surgery was performed at the hospital to try to save him, but that effort proved to be futile, and Kim died 4 days after the bout, on November 17. The neurosurgeon said it was caused by one punch.[2] The week after, Sports Illustrated published a photo of the fight on its cover, under the heading Tragedy in The Ring.[6] The profile of the incident was heightened by the fight having been televised live by CBS in the United States.
Aftermath of Kim's death
Mancini went through a period of reflection, as he blamed himself for Kim's death. After friends helped him by telling him that it was just an accident, Mancini went on with his career, though still haunted by Kim's death. His promoter, Bob Arum, said Mancini "was never the same" after Kim's death. Two years later, Mancini lost his title to Livingstone Bramble.[7]
Four weeks after the fatal fight, the Mike Weaver vs Michael Dokes fight at the same Caesars Palace venue ended with a technical knockout declared 63 seconds into the fight. Referee Joey Curtis admitted to stopping the fight early under orders of the Nevada State Athletic Commission to be aware of a fighter's health in light of the Mancini-Kim fight, and a rematch was ordered.
Kim's mother flew from Korea to Las Vegas to be with her son before the life support equipment was turned off. Three months later, she took her own life by drinking a bottle of pesticide.[1] The bout's referee, Richard Green, committed suicide July 1, 1983.[8]
Kim left behind a fiancée, Lee Young-Mee, who was pregnant at the time with their son, Kim Chi-Wan, who was born in July 1983.[1]
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I'm not saying that Duerson and Seau will kill the NFL. I'm saying the NFL is at risk and it needs to be taken very seriously, and not summarily dismissed as many are doing here.
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Personally, I don't think you could be more wrong in comparing FIFA to Boxing. FIFA is corrupt but is basically just a rules committee and World Cup organizer. EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, etc are all in charge of their organizations and are semi-autonomous. Plus there is clear organization and heirarchy as to who is where. Its not like Real Madrid can run off, create its own cup and then say that cup was better than UEFA champions cup or something.
Boxing didn't come unhinged until the late 90s and 2000s and there were plenty of deaths in boxing prior. Hell, your own example occurred in 1982 and Mike Tyson was a dominate fixture in sports and boxing as recently as the 90s
You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I'd like to see one shred of evidence that its death's and not an organizational issue. Until we see that on either side we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Brew says ...
FIFA may be corrupt, but they're not hurting at all financially. There may be individual teams, even leagues, in trouble, but the overall governing body is making money hand over fist
MU03eng says ...
FIFA is corrupt but is basically just a rules committee and World Cup organizer.
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Before you announce all my comments are wrong, at least agree on basic definitions of what you are talking about.
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Brew says ...
FIFA may be corrupt, but they're not hurting at all financially. There may be individual teams, even leagues, in trouble, but the overall governing body is making money hand over fist
MU03eng says ...
FIFA is corrupt but is basically just a rules committee and World Cup organizer.
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Before you announce all my comments are wrong, at least agree on basic definitions of what you are talking about.
I'd like you to first prove how our statements are in-congruent. I was not looking at it from a financial aspect but yes Brew is right they are making money hand over fist and yes they are an organizing body. How are these statements contradictory?
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According to everyone here, a corrupt organizing body , poorly financed and three teams winning everything while everyone sucks would kill a sport. Instead premiership and soccer overall has never been better. (also note I never said FIFA was not making money. I said teams and leagues are not making money. I said FIFA was poorly run. Your response supports both of these contentions.)
Well, FIFA and the EPL are two completely separate entities. And on average, the television rights alone net each Premiership team £90 million per year. The teams that are suffering are the ones in the lower divisions and the ones that count on that EPL money and are relegated while either being overextended on their salaries and debt (like Portsmouth or Leeds) or overspending to get back quickly and fail to get promoted.
FIFA may be unfairly run, but I'm not sure it's poorly run. The main problems with FIFA are evidenced by Qatar and Russia winning World Cup bids amidst rumors of bribes, especially when the existing stadiums and infrastructure simply isn't there in comparison with their competitors (such as the US, England, and Australia). But for Blatter and the other people high up in FIFA, things are running just fine as they line their pockets with (unsubstantiated) bribes.
I suppose I could make the assertion that the EPL will almost certainly have a fifth champion come Sunday, but the oil barons that run Man City probably aren't the best example of leveling the playing field. I have a great deal of empathy for the lower tier teams that are struggling as the team I support (Reading FC) isn't exactly fashionable or wealthy, and when I see a team like Luton struck down by the FA, but the actions of the FA and EPL are not the actions of FIFA. I could spend hours (and have, on other websites) debating the financial gaps in the sport, but when you have 92 League football clubs, not to mention even more teams in the Conference level and below, revenue sharing is almost impossible (and nonexistent) from the top down, and that's just in England, a country with a population less than 1/6 the size of the US. When you factor in Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland, and all the other smaller countries in Europe, I don't think it's at all an exaggeration to say that Europe has 1,000 or more club teams, all trying to get their share of essentially the same UEFA pot.
But as I look at this, I realize I'm horribly off-topic. I guess I'll leave it with this...there's plenty of corruption, but also plenty of money, and more often than not, the clubs that find themselves in financial ruin ultimately brought it on themselves. It's unfortunate for the fans, but it's survival of the fittest, not unlike how in the past NFL teams have dissolved (mostly back in the 1920s) or how the ABA folded all but 4 teams when that league went under. And there's enough interest that regardless of how many clubs fold, the sport and 90% of the clubs will continue to survive, if not thrive.
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I thought I was asking you that.
So you think that administrators should (and would!) be able to get away with not enforcing title IX?
Unlikely, but then again there are other equally important laws that people in power choose not to enforce in this country at the federal, state, county, city levels.
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The big question is whether parents start/continue to push their kids away from playing football and instead steer them towards sports like soccer. If that occurs the market for football will contract. I personally think this will happen and think the college football television contracts are too high.
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soccer headers may result in concussion-like injuries.
In 200 years football will be looked at as barbaric.
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The big question is whether parents start/continue to push their kids away from playing football and instead steer them towards sports like soccer. If that occurs the market for football will contract. I personally think this will happen and think the college football television contracts are too high.
Kurt Warner said he would push his sons away from football (see the first post).
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The big question is whether parents start/continue to push their kids away from playing football and instead steer them towards sports like soccer. If that occurs the market for football will contract. I personally think this will happen and think the college football television contracts are too high.
I know there are plenty of people that like football that never played football.
However, there is something to people loving FB since they played on some level.
Baseball used to be "america's pastime", partially because it was the sport EVERYBODY played as a kid, so there was a built in affinity for it.
IF youth football goes down significantly (it will take a long time for that to happen), FB viewership could feel it down the road.
However, this is probably more a projection into 2030-2040 as these are more "generational" types of issues.
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Since the 70s it has been a fact that more kids in this country (boys and girls combined) play soccer than any other sport. Yet that has never translated into soccer becoming a major sport in this country.
So why should the number of kids playing football going up or down matter?
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Since the 70s it has been a fact that more kids in this country (boys and girls combined) play soccer than any other sport. Yet that has never translated into soccer becoming a major sport in this country.
So why should the number of kids playing football going up or down matter?
This is exactly right. I never played football as a kid, and neither have my children, but football is by far and away our family's favorite sport. I doubt there has ever been an era where football has been the most popular youth sport.
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Since the 70s it has been a fact that more kids in this country (boys and girls combined) play soccer than any other sport. Yet that has never translated into soccer becoming a major sport in this country.
So why should the number of kids playing football going up or down matter?
+1
Regardless of what kids play, football is what teens and adults watch. I'd even guess that most soccer playing youths watch more American football than professional soccer on TV.
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I suppose I could make the assertion that the EPL will almost certainly have a fifth champion come Sunday, but the oil barons that run Man City probably aren't the best example of leveling the playing field. I have a great deal of empathy for the lower tier teams that are struggling as the team I support (Reading FC) isn't exactly fashionable or wealthy, and when I see a team like Luton struck down by the FA, but the actions of the FA and EPL are not the actions of FIFA. I could spend hours (and have, on other websites) debating the financial gaps in the sport, but when you have 92 League football clubs, not to mention even more teams in the Conference level and below, revenue sharing is almost impossible (and nonexistent) from the top down, and that's just in England, a country with a population less than 1/6 the size of the US. When you factor in Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland, and all the other smaller countries in Europe, I don't think it's at all an exaggeration to say that Europe has 1,000 or more club teams, all trying to get their share of essentially the same UEFA pot.
As a relatively recent EPL fan, my observation is that fans of these teams must feel a lot like college football fans - they have different levels of expectations and base their satisfaction on those.
You have the Man U, Arsenal, etc. fans who are only satisfied with titles and Champions League advancement. Like the half-dozen or so teams that compete for a BCS title every year.
You have the next tier of Newcastle, Everton, who are happy with a top half finish and are happy to occasionally play in Europe. Like Wisconsin of the past couple years who are glad to get into a BCS bowl.
Then you have those who are just happy to survive in the EPL...like a Stoke or Sunderland. Similar to the college teams that get into an occasional New Year's Day Bowl...like Northwestern and Purdue.
And then you have those who are happy just to have an EPL season occasionally, but are content to contend at the lower levels...like a Blackpool. Similar to those teams whose bowl appearances are rare but happy events.
Occasionally there are teams that can crack new levels like Man City (Oregon), and occasionally those teams crash and burn, likely not to return for a very long time, like Portsmouth (Colorado).
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As a relatively recent EPL fan, my observation is that fans of these teams must feel a lot like college football fans - they have different levels of expectations and base their satisfaction on those.
That's 100% correct. Outside of United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, and maybe some pie-in-the-sky Liverpool fans, no one is really hoping for a title challenge. Finishing in the European places, the top half, or even just above the relegation zone is a massive accomplishment for some teams, and their fans rejoice those accomplishments just as much as a small college team would getting invited to the Big Dance or a mid-tier bowl game.
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#1) Congress will never immunize the NFL or universities from litigation. Exempting a multi-billion dollar private industry from liability won't play in this country. Universities, as non-profits, may stand a slim chance of getting something through, but they'll never make the push for it... as watchdogs start to set their sights on "big education" (for reasons other than football injuries), universities won't even think about upsetting a major political ally (the trial lawyers association).
#2) Football's popularity is seemingly at its peak, but like all mammoths of society, it is one massive lawsuit from being brought to its knees. The NFL has the wherewithal to defend itself, but given that most FBS schools break even or lose money on football, all it's going to take is one multi-million dollar judgment against Stanford or USC (because ground-breaking lawsuits always happen in California), and all of the sudden, schools are going to come to the realization that all that BCS money, BTN distributions, and student fees they've amassed over the years isn't nearly enough to mitigate the risk of an 8-figure lawsuit. Cutting off or squeezing the NFL's development pipeline will spell major trouble for the pro circuit.
#3) Football isn't going to die, but it will have to live on in a different form. Whether that form involves a major rules change, reduced number of college teams, and/or the incorporation of a "farm-system" similar to baseball, I can't say. But the current model - given the litigious nature of our society - is not sustainable.
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Football is banned shortly after Moms and Chevrolet.
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The point of this thread was the Junior Seau suicide was going to mark a peak in football's popularity.
Consider what happened today in Kansas City
Jovan Belcher kills girlfriend, himself
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8697360/kansas-city-chiefs-jovan-belcher-kills-girlfriend-commits-suicide-police-say
Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher fatally shot his girlfriend on Saturday, then drove to Arrowhead Stadium and committed suicide in front of his coach and general manager.
Authorities did not release a possible motive for the murder-suicide, though police said that Belcher and his girlfriend, 22-year-old Kasandra M. Perkins, had been arguing recently. The two of them have an infant child.
Belcher thanked general manager Scott Pioli and coach Romeo Crennel before shooting himself in the parking lot of the team's practice facility, police spokesman Darin Snapp said. Police had locked it down by midmorning and reporters were confined to the street just outside the gates.
The Chiefs said they will play the Carolina Panthers on Sunday at Arrowhead Stadium as scheduled after discussing it with the league, Crennel and the club's captains. A spokesman for Kansas City told The Associated Press that Crennel plans to coach the team.
The Panthers had been advised by the league earlier Saturday morning to travel to Kansas City as planned.
Belcher was a 25-year-old native of West Babylon, N.Y., on Long Island, who played college ball at Maine. He signed with the Chiefs an undrafted free agent, made the team and stayed with it for four years, moving into the starting lineup. He'd played in all 11 games this season.
"The entire Chiefs family is deeply saddened by today's events, and our collective hearts are heavy with sympathy, thoughts and prayers for the families and friends affected by this unthinkable tragedy," Chiefs chairman Clark Hunt said in a statement.
"We sincerely appreciate the expressions of sympathy and support we have received from so many in the Kansas City and NFL communities, and ask for continued prayers for the loved ones of those impacted," Hunt said. "We will continue to fully cooperate with the authorities and work to ensure that the appropriate counseling resources are available to all members of the organization."
Authorities reported receiving a call Saturday morning from a woman who said her daughter had been shot multiple times at a residence about five miles away from the Arrowhead complex. The call actually came from Belcher's mother, who referred to the victim as her daughter, leading to some initial confusion, police said.
Police then received a phone call from the Chiefs' training facility.
"The description matched the suspect description from that other address. We kind of knew what we were dealing with," Snapp said. The player was "holding a gun to his head" as he stood in front of the front doors of the practice facility.
"And there were Pioli and Crennel and another coach or employee was standing outside and appeared to be talking to him. It appeared they were talking to the suspect," Snapp said. "The suspect began to walk in the opposite direction of the coaches and the officers and that's when they heard the gunshot. It appears he took his own life."
The coaches told police they never felt in any danger, Snapp said.
Linebackers coach Gary Gibbs was also outside when the shooting occurred, a team official told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.
"They said the player was actually thanking them for everything they'd done for him," Snapp said. "They were just talking to him and he was thanking them and everything. That's when he walked away and shot himself."
Snapp said Belcher's mother told police the couple had recently been arguing.
"Our thoughts and prayers are with the Chiefs and the families and friends of those who lost their lives in this terrible tragedy," the NFL said in a news release. "We have connected the Chiefs with our national team of professional counselors to support both the team and the families of those affected. We will continue to provide assistance in any way that we can."
Joe Linta, Belcher's agent who also represents Crennel, said when he first heard the news, he thought it was a prank.
"He was the last person in the world you would expect," Linta said. "Completely out of character for the guy I know. I didn't have a lot of individual contact with him but this is so out of character for him. Completely out of character. He was charitable, polite, articulate -- and something went crazy wrong."
Linta said he hasn't been in touch with Crennel since the incident.
"No I haven't had a chance to speak to him," Linta said. "I left a message saying I'm here for you. It's one of those things where a lot have called, you're in my prayers, but I'm just a piano player. There are a lot of people drastically impacted. It's unbelievable to me."
Belcher is the latest among several players and NFL retirees to die from self-inflicted gunshot wounds in the past couple of years. The death of the beloved star Junior Seau, who shot himself in the chest in at his California home in May, sent shockwaves around the league.
Kansas City mayor Sly James said he spoke to Pioli after the incident, and while he refused to discuss the GM's emotional state, the mayor said Pioli was "extremely concerned that fans of this team are not disappointed and not left in the cold."
"I think they think there's an obligation to the people of this city, the fans of the team and the fans of the other team to play the game," James said.
The Chiefs, expected to contend for the AFC West title, are 1-10 and mired in an eight-game losing streak.
"The Oakland Raiders are empathizing with the Chiefs organization," the Chiefs' AFC West rivals said in a statement. "Our hearts are wounded by such an unimaginable tragedy in our NFL family."
Belcher, had started 44-of-59 games in his four seasons for the Chiefs, recording a career-high 61 tackles in 2011.
Raibonne Charles, a former Maine defensive lineman and teammate, said Belcher played the game with passion and was "a passionate person in life."
Charles said he hadn't talked to Belcher much since he made it to the NFL, but that everyone is obviously shocked.
"To be honest with you, I kind of just crumbled inside when I first heard the news," Charles said.
Maine coach Jack Cosgrove said Jovan was a "tremendous student-athlete."
"His move to the NFL was in keeping with his dreams," Cosgrove said in a statement. "This is an indescribably horrible tragedy. At this difficult time, our thoughts and prayers are with Jovan, Kasandra and their families."
Charles described Belcher as an undersized linebacker whose 40-yard dash time wasn't exceptional. But he was an inspiration for a lot of guys at the school because he made it to the NFL despite his shortcomings, Charles said.
"The state of Maine tends to take a lot of pride in guys who may not necessarily be from the state but play for the University of Maine and make the NFL," Charles said. "I was often asked about him. 'Did you get to play with that guy Jovan?' This is definitely going to be devastating to the whole state."
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The only thing this incident seems to have in common with Seau's is that it was self-inflicted. Not sure how either incident is going to put a dent in the popularity of football.
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Let me add that as I am typing this, I am watching the SEC Championship Game where the cheapest tickets went for about $300 on Stubhub, and will undoubtedly draw huge ratings.
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So a player kills his girlfriend, drives to the Arrowhead stadium and blows his brains out in front of his GM (Scott Pioloi) and Coach (Romeo Crannell). He leaves behind an infant child.
And what is the NFL's response? Basically to tell the team to get a broom and shovel and clean up the mess as they have a game to play tomorrow.
I'm a huge fan of the NFL. But Duerson, Seau, Lyle Alzado and now this are going to kill the popularity of football. These incidents are not going away, they are getting worse. Next high school kids are going to think twice about playing (Kurt Warner does not want his kids playing) just like they recondiered boxing as a sport 50 to 70 years ago. Then 20 years from now, the NFL will be as popular as MLB.
And college will be choking on all these conference realignments.
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The Chiefs players supposedly wanted to play...not that it should make a difference because I actually agree that they shouldn't.
But regardless, Duerson, et al are not going to kill the popularity of college football. I am not watching this game wondering who is going to put a bullet in their head 30 years from now. Now, might it decline in popularity? Sure. But I think people who are predicting an enormous decline in football's popularity have no idea how deeply ingrained it is within our society.
And I have no idea how you think college will be "choking" on conference reallignments. To me that sounds more like bitterness about MU's place in the world more than anything.
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Its the lawsuits that will hurt football, not the off the field incidents.
Chris Henry's "suicide" was pretty bad as was Rae Carruth's murder but we have almost forgot about those.
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IMO, if lawsuits significantly hurt football, you will see Congress step in to limit damages...exempt colleges and universities, etc.
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Its the lawsuits that will hurt football, not the off the field incidents.
Chris Henry's "suicide" was pretty bad as was Rae Carruth's murder but we have almost forgot about those.
Chris Henry was hanging on the hood of his girlfriend's car and fell off as she sped away. Not sure how that can be classified as a suicide, even with quotes.
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I can see lawsuits occurring, starting at the high school level.
High Schools condone and encourage a violent dangerous sport through events like Homecoming that they amplify to the point of being almost the most important aspect of a students High School life.
Students injured or affected by this climate have as legitimate of a claim against school districts as a smoker against the tobacco industry (advertising to kids).
It just takes one successful lawyer to start a trend.
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Chris Henry was hanging on the hood of his girlfriend's car and fell off as she sped away. Not sure how that can be classified as a suicide, even with quotes.
Witness accounts stated that he was threatening her that he would jump off the car and kill himself....and that's what he did.
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. But I think people who are predicting an enormous decline in football's popularity have no idea how deeply ingrained it is within our society
Boxing was as ingrained before the 1950s.
When the public start viewing the sport as watching the athletes ruining their lives rather than playing a game, the public gets turned off and its popularity suffers.
This happened with boxing and it has not recovered. Auto racing had this problem but safety enchancements allowed it to rebound.
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Boxing was as ingrained before the 1950s.
When the public start viewing the sport as watching the athletes ruining their lives rather than playing a game, the public gets turned off and its popularity suffers.
This happened with boxing and it has not recovered. Auto racing had this problem but safety enchancements allowed it to rebound.
No. Boxing lost popularity when it became poorly managed and they moved the matches to pay per view...short term profit versus long term health. It many ways it was more blood-thirsty as it was growing in popularity.
And football is much more ingrained than boxing every was.
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No. Boxing lost popularity when it became poorly managed and they moved the matches to pay per view...short term profit versus long term health. It many ways it was more blood-thirsty as it was growing in popularity.
And football is much more ingrained than boxing every was.
See MMA. I agree at a conceptual level that football could be harmed by all this but the boxing analogy is silly. The violence didn't help, but MMA is far more violent and seems to be more popular now than boxing. Also boxing failed because of title confusion and proliferation more than anything else.
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See MMA. I agree at a conceptual level that football could be harmed by all this but the boxing analogy is silly. The violence didn't help, but MMA is far more violent and seems to be more popular now than boxing. Also boxing failed because of title confusion and proliferation more than anything else.
We like violence ... what we don't like is watching people die and get injured for life.
MMA will never move beyond its current appeal unless people believe they are not watching perement injury of an athlete.
MMA has not reached the level of Pro Wrestling. The public,rightly or wrongly, thought pro Wrestling was fke so it did not beleive they were getting seriously injured. That preception is now changed and the sport is suffering.
Regarding boxing, it not just PPV, the sport is in decline worldwide for the same reason ... no one wants to watch someone die, except the sickos.
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Belcher committed a murder/suicide based upon a domestic violence incident. The reasoning being an argument with his girlfriend over something that will soon be brought to life. The argument and subsequent shooting was witnessed by the mother, who was on the scene when the incident occurred. This happens everyday in this country and to be honest, I can't believe the victim's mother is still alive. In the majority of these domestic violent cases, the rage takes over and more than one family victim at the scene is gone.
This had nothing to do with any football brain injury suffered by a 25 year old athlete, but others may perceive it to be. Will not effect anything with people watching the NFL.
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Belcher committed a murder/suicide based upon a domestic violence incident. The reasoning being an argument with his girlfriend over something that will soon be brought to life. The argument and subsequent shooting was witnessed by the mother, who was on the scene when the incident occurred. This happens everyday in this country and to be honest, I can't believe the victim's mother is still alive. In the majority of these domestic violent cases, the rage takes over and more than one family victim at the scene is gone.
This had nothing to do with any football brain injury suffered by a 25 year old athlete, but others may perceive it to be. Will not effect anything with people watching the NFL.
Sorry, people do kill their partner and then drive to work and blow their brains out in front of their boss at the office everyday.
It is not going to affect football in the near-term but it will over the long-term. Why do you thin the NFL invented USA Football and run the Tom Brady commercial a million times that they are spending millions of safety?
I'm saying the the peak in football popularity is right now and its will start on a slow side. 20 years from today it will be as popular as MLB is now. But, it will remain very popular in the South, like NASCAR. So, if you think NASCAR is a regional sport, show will Football in 2030.
That means college football will earn slight more than basketball, not many times more than basketball.
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You are acting as if football players acting violently is a new thing. It isn't. Mike Webster and Rae Carruth are just footnotes to history. Junior Seau and Jovan Belcher will meet the same fate by the time the NFL playoffs kickoff. Now, football may decline simply because it is so sky high now, but this kind of stuff wont be the reason.
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Actually, people do murder their partner everyday and then do themselves. They also kill their children and then do themselves. Only issue here is that it received national media attention due to his status as a professional football player.
I agree with your long term assessment over the potential for decrease in football being popular, because over time more and more parents will allow not their children to play. The brain injury research is only in the early stages and the results will probably not be in favor of football.
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So a player kills his girlfriend, drives to the Arrowhead stadium and blows his brains out in front of his GM (Scott Pioloi) and Coach (Romeo Crannell). He leaves behind an infant child.
And what is the NFL's response? Basically to tell the team to get a broom and shovel and clean up the mess as they have a game to play tomorrow.
I'm a huge fan of the NFL. But Duerson, Seau, Lyle Alzado and now this are going to kill the popularity of football. These incidents are not going away, they are getting worse. Next high school kids are going to think twice about playing (Kurt Warner does not want his kids playing) just like they recondiered boxing as a sport 50 to 70 years ago. Then 20 years from now, the NFL will be as popular as MLB.
And college will be choking on all these conference realignments.
Alzado started roids back in the early 70s at Yankton college (now a minimum security prision for the state of south dakota). His roof use continued for 10-15 years. I have a personalized signed alzado picture on my wall, but Big Lyle was completely different than the concussion related deaths of DD, seau, etc.
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Let me add that as I am typing this, I am watching the SEC Championship Game where the cheapest tickets went for about $300 on Stubhub, and will undoubtedly draw huge ratings.
Good moonshine sells for $300 a gallon. Don't ever underestimate the buying power of even the most toothless of rednecks in the south.
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There is no need to promote a law that has been on the books for years.
I don't get it. Women shouldn't have as many sports options as men?
Sorry to come late to the party and answer an off-topic question, but I think there should be a football exemption in the Title IX law. There simply isn't an equivalent sport that uses 55 scholarships for women. So what ends up happening is men get less options. So there's a softball team and a women's volleyball team and a women's gymnastics team and a women's bowling team, etc. to make up the difference. Wouldn't men like to complete in these sports too? It doesn't have to be an exemption, but let football scholarships be accounted for at 3 for 1 or 2 for 1 or something like that. I certainly don't want to create an environment where it's okay to neglect women's sports, but I think there has to be a way to keep Title IX protections in place without essentially discarding non-revenue men's sports.
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This talk is hardly new.
In the early part of last century, a big move was made to abolish college football. In one editorial, the New York Times spoke of two "curable evils": football and lynchings.
A group of influential people that included President Teddy Roosevelt convinced the sport's higher-ups to make the game less violent. The rulebook was rewritten, and football was saved.
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These are the issues football has ...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2012/10/09/why-is-football-so-popular/
But the bottom line is that football, at all levels, has never been more popular.
Which is a curious thing, because the game itself is under siege, primarily because of concerns about what playing it is doing to the brains of its players. Maybe the impact of concussion-related lawsuits and the reports of former players shooting themselves in the heart in order to preserve their brains for future study will be felt someday soon. I’ve argued in the past that mothers may, in the end, determine the fate of football. But they haven’t yet. The game just continues to grow in popularity.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2012/05/03/could-the-10-billion-nfl-lose-its-fans/
But even if he [Seau] had nothing wrong with his brain, the damage, to a certain degree, has been done. The public perception—the first thought that went through the minds of most sports fans—was that there had to be a connection. Most football fans of this generation didn’t really know Duerson. But we know Seau. We grew up watching him. He was a good and popular player. His death hits harder than Duerson’s.
And that feeling that we all share goes deep. Even if it turns out that Seau had a perfectly-functioning brain, we know, deep down, that sometime in the future, there will be others. Duerson, Mike Webster, Andre Waters and Terry Long, among others, all died young and were all found to have chronic traumatic encephalopathy, also known—colloquially and quite hauntingly—as gridiron dementia.
Seau’s death was heartbreaking, for two main reasons: first, any suicide is an act of such unfathomable pain, pain that is immediately transferred to those—like Seau’s mother and three children—who are left behind. But it’s also heartbreaking for a more selfish reason to football fans, like me, who are forced to face up to some hard truths.
We now are fully aware of the toll that the game takes on its players. According to the website, nflconcussionlitigation.com, “as of October 2, 2012, there are 3,690 named player-plaintiffs in the 159 complaints [and]…more than 5,200 plaintiffs total” involved in concussion-related lawsuits against the NFL.
http://nflconcussionlitigation.com/?page_id=274
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Referring back to the question asked in the subject line of the OP.
No. Never. Not ever.
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Right Another....those are the issues football has. The real question is that are these issues serious enough to kill the game. And I think the obvious answer is "not anytime soon."
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A murder suicide in a NFL practice facility lot of an NFL player in front of the GM and HC 29 hours before kickoff wasn't even enough to postpone a game. What makes you think it will topple the one of the greatest sports leagues.
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Boxing was as ingrained before the 1950s.
When the public start viewing the sport as watching the athletes ruining their lives rather than playing a game, the public gets turned off and its popularity suffers.
This happened with boxing and it has not recovered. Auto racing had this problem but safety enchancements allowed it to rebound.
Have to disagree. Boxing lost popularity with pay per view events which paired a heavy weight champion versus a completely unqualified opponent aka a boring product. What channels put on much boxing anymore HBO and Showtime which are pay channels. Who is going to pay for a boring product. Boxing does well outside of the heavy weight division with Mayweather, pacquio, and others when the bout pairs equally matched opponents.
UFC does well because it has brand name fighters who battle every several months. They also have "free" product on channels like Spike to get people interested.
Injuries won't kill football as it hasn't killed any other sport. MLB lost its place not because of injuries but it put forth a boring product. As long as football puts forth a quality product they will remain on top.
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Have to disagree. Boxing lost popularity with pay per view events which paired a heavy weight champion versus a completely unqualified opponent aka a boring product. What channels put on much boxing anymore HBO and Showtime which are pay channels. Who is going to pay for a boring product. Boxing does well outside of the heavy weight division with Mayweather, pacquio, and others when the bout pairs equally matched opponents.
Absolutely agree. My group is responsible for boxing revenue (among other things) for our company. PPV was the absolute killer for the sport..absolute killer. We had a meeting recently with Larry Holmes (former champion), Dana White (UFC), Tony Parker (HBO boxing), and others. Unanimously it is the same story, PPV killed boxing. It made many people rich, but it killed the excitement for the sport. The fights used to be on Wide World of Sports on Saturday afternoons where the average blue collar guy could see the sport. Now it is very expensive, it has also meant the dilution of talent in the ring. Our Olympic team is in shambles and no heavyweights of any kind from the US to spark any interest.
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Cleveland Browns suicide...not by gun. He wasn't a player. Part of life unfortunately.
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/another-nfl-suicide-this-time-a-browns-employee/
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100 years ago the biggest sport going was boxing. It remained the top sport for 70 years. Then the constant complaints about violence and injury got it banned in many places (not Vegas) and now the sport is fraction of what it used to be.
The Sweet Science is still just that
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A murder suicide in a NFL practice facility lot of an NFL player in front of the GM and HC 29 hours before kickoff wasn't even enough to postpone a game.
I just don't understand the people who were talking about postponing the game. Yes, its a game but it is also a business. Any other business would be open a day after a murder/suicide unless it was told to be closed by authorities. I'm sure the players are playing with a heavy heart but you have to think about the thousands of customers that have made travel arrangements for the game. Is sucks but sometimes you have these moments in life.
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I work in the medical field, granted with a smaller office than an NFL team, and I can safely say that we would not be open after one of our employees committed suicide in front of us.
A couple of points that I will add to the thread. First, Junior Seau did not have CTE. Whatever was going on emotionally, it was not reflected in his brain scans. That's a whole other debate.
UFC is way safer than boxing, in my opinion. UFC ends fights when someone is "knocked out." In boxing, if they are just dazed and can stand up in 8 more seconds, then they can continue with the fight. A big difference in head injuries.
Does anyone else think that insurance costs will kill college football? I can realistically see one fatal injury with a huge settlement. Insurance costs go up and universities have some decisions to make. Football popularity will also go down. More and more individuals will not allow their kids to play. The individuals that play football will come from the same social classes that the current boxers do. There has to be incentives for individuals to play.
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I just don't understand the people who were talking about postponing the game. Yes, its a game but it is also a business. Any other business would be open a day after a murder/suicide unless it was told to be closed by authorities. I'm sure the players are playing with a heavy heart but you have to think about the thousands of customers that have made travel arrangements for the game. Is sucks but sometimes you have these moments in life.
You mean like the spa in Brookfield that was closed for about a month?
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You mean like the spa in Brookfield that was closed for about a month?
It was a crime scene. Doubt it was even available to be reopened for 7-14 days.
Also, there's a pretty significant difference between shutting down a single small business where mass murder involving several workers occurred and shutting down 6 percent of a multi-billion dollar industry because a single employee killed himself.
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It was a crime scene. Doubt it was even available to be reopened for 7-14 days.
Also, there's a pretty significant difference between shutting down a single small business where mass murder involving several workers occurred and shutting down 6 percent of a multi-billion dollar industry because a single employee killed himself.
So when Romeo Crennel is standing their with Belcher brains all over his sweatshirt he's told to get over himself because their is a lot of money involved in playing the game the next day. That is what appears like to me and that is the worst possible impression the NFL wants to leave with its fans ... money grubbing whores that treat players (71% black, and yes you know what I'm suggesting here) and expendable pieces that will be cast aside as the show must go on.
This is the NFL. Get a mop and shovel, change your shirt, and move on.
If Belcher pulled a gun and killed himself on the field today, would the game be delayed 3 minutes or 5 minutes? If he blew his brains out on the sideline, would they even call a time-out?
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http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8697360/kansas-city-chiefs-jovan-belcher-kills-girlfriend-commits-suicide-police-say
The player was "holding a gun to his head" as he stood in front of the front doors of the practice facility.
"And there were Pioli [Chiefs GM] and Crennel and another coach or employee was standing outside and appeared to be talking to him. It appeared they were talking to the suspect," Snapp said. "The suspect began to walk in the opposite direction of the coaches and the officers and that's when they heard the gunshot. It appears he took his own life."
The coaches told police they never felt in any danger, Snapp said.
...
"They said the player was actually thanking them for everything they'd done for him," Snapp said. "They were just talking to him and he was thanking them and everything. That's when he walked away and shot himself."
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So when Romeo Crennel is standing their with Belcher brains all over his sweatshirt he's told to get over himself because their is a lot of money involved in playing the game the next day. That is what appears like to me and that is the worst possible impression the NFL wants to leave with its fans ... money grubbing whores.
This is the NFL. Get a mop and shovel, change your shirt, and move on.
If Belcher pulled a gun and killed himself on the field today, would the game be delayed 3 minutes or 5 minutes? If he blew his brains out on the sideline, would they even call a time-out?
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http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8697360/kansas-city-chiefs-jovan-belcher-kills-girlfriend-commits-suicide-police-say
The player was "holding a gun to his head" as he stood in front of the front doors of the practice facility.
"And there were Pioli and Crennel and another coach or employee was standing outside and appeared to be talking to him. It appeared they were talking to the suspect," Snapp said. "The suspect began to walk in the opposite direction of the coaches and the officers and that's when they heard the gunshot. It appears he took his own life."
The coaches told police they never felt in any danger, Snapp said.
...
"They said the player was actually thanking them for everything they'd done for him," Snapp said. "They were just talking to him and he was thanking them and everything. That's when he walked away and shot himself."
Stop with the phony drama.
Belcher didn't pull out a gun and kill himself on the field.
And nobody told Crennel to get over it. He and the team captains met yesterday and decided unanimously they wanted to play today.
Anything else you want to make up?
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Stop with the phony drama.
Belcher didn't pull out a gun and kill himself on the field.
And nobody told Crennel to get over it. He and the team captains met yesterday and decided unanimously they wanted to play today.
Anything else you want to make up?
No he pulled a gun at the practice facility and blew his brains out in front of Crennel, the GM and several other people. I guess that makes it ok.
And NFL players would elect to play if a nuclear bomb destroyed KC that day. It part of the macho culture.
It's up to the adults in the room (the NFL) do what is right for their league's perception and image.
And to recap the NFL's priorities, bounties are no-no and worthy of a 1 year suspension. The Belcher situation is merely unfortunate and everyone back into the film room.
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Didnt have a chance to watch any football today. Was the NFL banned? No? Maybe next week, huh?
::)
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No he pulled a gun at the practice facility and blew his brains out in front of Crennel, the GM and several other people. I guess that makes it ok.
And NFL players would elect to play if a nuclear bomb destroyed KC that day. It part of the macho culture.
It's up to the adults in the room (the NFL) do what is right for their league's perception and image.
And to recap the NFL's priorities, bounties are no-no and worthy of a 1 year suspension. The Belcher situation is merely unfortunate and everyone back into the film room.
Is there outrage out there that I am missing???
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It was a crime scene. Doubt it was even available to be reopened for 7-14 days.
Also, there's a pretty significant difference between shutting down a single small business where mass murder involving several workers occurred and shutting down 6 percent of a multi-billion dollar industry because a single employee killed himself.
I was in a Denver suburb last holiday and a man killed his estranged wife in the parking lot of a McDonald's with his kids in the McDonald's. The killing happened in the evening. They were open for breakfast the next morning. I agree with Pakuni, life has to go on unless there is a crime scene that involves keeping it shut for an extended period of time. Chiefs played with a lot of passion today. Tragedy...a little kid is now without a mom and dad as well.
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Had two co-workers commit suicide a few weeks apart a couple of years back. The fire stations never closed. I'm on the department Critical Incident Stress team and worked my ass off for a couple of months, but the fire stations never closed. Sometimes you just have to power through and mourn later.
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Had two co-workers commit suicide a few weeks apart a couple of years back. The fire stations never closed. I'm on the department Critical Incident Stress team and worked my ass off for a couple of months, but the fire stations never closed. Sometimes you just have to power through and mourn later.
I am glad to hear that the fire stations did not close. Though tragic a suicide does not come close to outweighing community safety. Would the Marine Corps shut down over a suicide?
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A murder suicide in a NFL practice facility lot of an NFL player in front of the GM and HC 29 hours before kickoff wasn't even enough to postpone a game. What makes you think it will topple the one of the greatest sports leagues.
The guy was an idiot. Who knows why he murdered someone then waxed himself but there is no connection with this event and shutting down a business. Whenever there is some event like this there are candle light vigils and all sorts of tear jerking gatherings. This guy kills his SF then shoots himself? So what. Stock boy at Safeway shoots himself? I expect to be able to get milk and eggs once the police clear out.
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Absolutely agree. My group is responsible for boxing revenue (among other things) for our company. PPV was the absolute killer for the sport..absolute killer. We had a meeting recently with Larry Holmes (former champion), Dana White (UFC), Tony Parker (HBO boxing), and others. Unanimously it is the same story, PPV killed boxing. It made many people rich, but it killed the excitement for the sport. The fights used to be on Wide World of Sports on Saturday afternoons where the average blue collar guy could see the sport. Now it is very expensive, it has also meant the dilution of talent in the ring. Our Olympic team is in shambles and no heavyweights of any kind from the US to spark any interest.
Strangely, both my wife and I have colleagues who are in relationships with boxing promoters, and at a holiday function last year, we actually talked about this very subject. Now granted, it can be somewhat difficult to have an intellectual conversation with someone who spent the better part of his life taking blows to the head, but what I surmised from the conversation was that within boxing circles, the sport is just as popular as ever; however, it's the excitement of the general public that has waned. Boxing has taken its hits over the years, but PPV and forty-eight different championship belts didn't "kill" the sport or make it any less popular... boxing fans still order PPV for the big fights, still show up to the Gold Glove competitions, still know the names on the under card, still teach kids at the armory on Saturday afternoons, etc., but it's the casual fan - who used to watch the sport (mostly because it was accessible) - no longer does. And in that regard, boxing no longer generates any of the mainstream "excitement" that football does.
How does this translate to football, I am not sure. When the NFL Network was launched, I got a little nervous not knowing what direction they were taking their TV model. But instead of migrating more games to the NFLN, the NFL only puts the bare minimum on the NFLN necessary to get the channel on basic-tier, because after all, even at the zenith of its popularity, the NFL isn't quite popular enough to generate excitement for its own network without putting any games on it. Hmmm.
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This talk is hardly new.
In the early part of last century, a big move was made to abolish college football. In one editorial, the New York Times spoke of two "curable evils": football and lynchings.
A group of influential people that included President Teddy Roosevelt convinced the sport's higher-ups to make the game less violent. The rulebook was rewritten, and football was saved.
At least they were about to cure lynchings. Far, far less lynchings going on these days.
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At least they were about to cure lynchings. Far, far less lynchings going on these days.
Until oft-concussed retired football players start doing it.
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Just watched footage of the Chiefs post game locker room on ESPN. A lot of smiles and concern over where to have dinner but not much crying about the suicide
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Football is insane if you actually think about it.
I still like it... but if you really think about it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgOUgrOHuFc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgOUgrOHuFc)
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Maybe some people were remembering that this wasn't just a suicide. This person murdered somebody.
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Yeah, I mean if a co-worker of mine, someone who I genuinely liked and gotten along with, suddenly showed up at work and killed himself after shooting his wife, to say my feelings would be "complex" is an understatement.
And even if the dinner banter is true, after everything those players had gone through in the past 30 hours, finding a place to hang out together and decompress as a team is actually a good thing.
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This was a profound tragedy. I also think that the rush to turn this tragedy into some kind of pedestal for a cause (e.g. guns/football violence, etc) is pretty disrespectful to the victims of the tragedy.
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This was a profound tragedy. I also think that the rush to turn this tragedy into some kind of pedestal for a cause (e.g. guns/football violence, etc) is pretty disrespectful to the victims of the tragedy.
I don't follow. The best time to try to fix the problem isn't years after it happens, its directly after the problem occurs.
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I don't have as much conviction that Football is going to decline in popularity, but I do tend to agree that it will happen.
Regardless of the particulars of how and why boxing is no longer as popular as it once was, it still remains true that a sport that previously dominated the landscape is now on the fringe. The point is that there is precedence for a highly popular sport to significantly decline, and football has nothing to make it immune from ever declining.
The most likely path for football's decline is brain trauma and litigation starting at the high school level. Given the increased exposure brain trauma is receiving will only accelerate that potential.
Of course, I may be biased because college football is f*cking everything up.
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I don't follow. The best time to try to fix the problem isn't years after it happens, its directly after the problem occurs.
What I mean is, people are exploiting a tragedy (people always do... never let a crisis go to waste and all that) in order to advance their agendas. I think that can be disrespectful.
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I am glad to hear that the fire stations did not close. Though tragic a suicide does not come close to outweighing community safety. Would the Marine Corps shut down over a suicide?
We agree. Suicide sucks. There is something therapeutic in joining with your co-workers, your defacto support group, and going through the rituals to do what you normally do. In other words, it was better for those guys to play football than it would have been for them to sit home, not play football, and brood.
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The most likely path for football's decline is brain trauma and litigation starting at the high school level. Given the increased exposure brain trauma is receiving will only accelerate that potential.
Of course, I may be biased because college football is f*cking everything up.
Football will lose popularity at some point but it will mostly be to diluting the product ,be it too many teams, rule changes, or restricting access, but not injuries.
Brain trauma won't be the down fall because it takes years if not decades for those to appear. Football has seen far worse immediate injuries with paralysis, etc and it did not impact people's perception of the game. I can think of cases of paralysis at both the NFL ( Detroit and Buffalo) and college (rutgers) with during the time that football grew in popularity.
I don't think litigation will be the end either as football is a voluntary activity with known risks and there is an assumed accepting of that risk by participating. If the schools/teams lied about the risk then there would be litigation. The whole brain trauma concern is a cya so the player or the coach does not force a player to play with that brain issue. It takes them both out of the decision to play.
I think the conference realignments will have a greater impact than injuries. How many of us are aggravated that MU is getting jerked around?
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Geez. Monday Night Football actually happened tonight. Based upon everything I read on this forum, I though for sure the game wouldnt happen. Silly me.
I wonder if this argument gets played out on boards of OSU....or Bama....or Michigan....or Stanford....or Penn State....?
Nah....this argument is only alive and well on a message boards in which fans of a non-football playing school are trying to find an identity in a football driven re-alignment world. Book it.
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Geez. Monday Night Football actually happened tonight. Based upon everything I read on this forum, I though for sure the game wouldnt happen. Silly me.
I wonder if this argument gets played out on boards of OSU....or Bama....or Michigan....or Stanford....or Penn State....?
Nah....this argument is only alive and well on a message boards in which fans of a non-football playing school are trying to find an identity in a football driven re-alignment world. Book it.
Stupid post which reflects poorly on you.
If you actually read this thread, instead of having an emotional reaction to the title, you would see that Buzz Bisinger, the author of Friday night lights, penned an article calling for college football to be banned. Virtually everyone here agreed this would not happen.
Then we discussed the possibility that football was peaking in popularity now, often comparing it boxing.
So, given all this, what is the point of your posts and criticism?
And yes I'll bet that the large football school message board did discuss Bisinger's article calling for college football to be banned. And I'll bet they agreed with us that it would not happen.
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Stupid post which reflects poorly on you.
If you actually read this thread, instead of having an emotional reaction to the title, you would see that Buzz Bisinger, the author of Friday night lights, penned an article calling for college football to be banned. Virtually everyone here agreed this would not happen.
Then we discussed the possibility that football was peaking in popularity now, often comparing it boxing.
So, given all this, what is the point of your posts and criticism?
Well, this sounds like a super important topic that should get hammered out on an internet message board. Why not this one? Im enjoying Monday Night Football. You? Geez, I really wish intelligent conversations amongst anonymous posters on an internet message board could solve all the world's problems. Im simply looking forward to a solution to....hell, I dont even know what the problem is with today's version of football. I like it just the way it is.
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Then we discussed the possibility that football was peaking in popularity now, often comparing it boxing.
Well not quite... "We" were not "often comparing it to boxing." You were. And it's still a poor comparison.
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Boxing died in large part because every marquee fight was moved to pay per view. The minute I hear a plan floated that moves every major college football and NFL game to pay per view, then I will entertain the boxing comparison.
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Well, this sounds like a super important topic that should get hammered out on an internet message board. Why not this one? Im enjoying Monday Night Football. You? Geez, I really wish intelligent conversations amongst anonymous posters on an internet message board could solve all the world's problems. Im simply looking forward to a solution to....hell, I dont even know what the problem is with today's version of football. I like it just the way it is.
Are you ripping 84 for offering his opinion, then offered your own?
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Im simply looking forward to a solution to....hell, I dont even know what the problem is with today's version of football. I like it just the way it is.
Well, one must give you credit for not tossing out a "back in my day..."
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/opinion/bruni-pro-footballs-violent-toll.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print
December 3, 2012
Pro Football’s Violent Toll
By FRANK BRUNI
Pro football left me with a neck injury. Watching pro football, I mean. At least three of the games that started at 1 p.m. Eastern time on Sunday went thrillingly down to the wire, two of them bleeding into overtime, and as I sat in a sports bar jerking my gaze from the television showing the Colts to the one with the Seahawks to the one with the Rams, I suffered mild whiplash. I ache as I write.
The whole 2012 season has been like that: seesaw contests, last-minute heroics. The spectacle presented by the National Football League has perhaps never been better.
Or uglier. And on Sunday, there was also a reminder of that, the overtime games overshadowed by the anguished examination of a murder-suicide, just a day earlier, involving the Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher. Belcher, 25, shot and killed his 22-year-old girlfriend, then himself. They left behind a baby girl, Zoey. Chiefs players are already talking about a fund for her. That’s apt, but they should be talking about a whole lot else as well.
There’s something rotten in the N.F.L., an obviously dysfunctional culture that either brings out sad, destructive behavior in its fearsome gladiators or fails to protect them and those around them from it. And while it’s too soon to say whether Belcher himself was a victim of that culture, it’s worth noting that the known facts and emerging details of his story echo themes all too familiar in pro football over recent years: domestic violence, substance abuse, erratic behavior, gun possession, bullets fired, suicide.
His death was the most stunning N.F.L. news of the last few days, but not the only peek into a world of tortured souls and crippled bodies. In The Times, Judy Battista reported that this year would be a record one for drug suspensions in the league, a result in part of an apparent rise in the use of the stimulant Adderall. The record could reflect heightened vigilance by league officials, but still: the high stakes, physical demands and physical agony inherent in pro football indisputably encourage drug taking, and some oft-medicated players graduate to years of addiction problems.
The scientific journal Brain just published a study by Boston University investigators of 85 people who had received repeated hits to their heads while they were alive and were examined posthumously for degenerative brain disease. Sixty-eight of those people had such disease, which can lead to mood swings, dementia, depression. Fifty of them had played football, 33 in the N.F.L., including Dave Duerson, the former Chicago Bears safety who shot himself fatally in the chest last year after sending his ex-wife a text message requesting that his brain tissue be analyzed for football-related damage.
The study’s publication follows the consolidation earlier this year of more than 100 lawsuits involving more than 3,000 former N.F.L. players and their families, who accuse the league and its official helmet maker of hiding information about the relationship between injuries on the field and brain damage. It also follows the revelation this year that the New Orleans Saints engaged in a bounty program by which defensive players got extra money for knocking opponents out of games.
In May the former San Diego Chargers linebacker Junior Seau, a veritable legend whom I’d known for years as Nemesis No. 1 of my beloved Denver Broncos, shot and killed himself, and in a heartbreaking assessment of his demise five months later, the San Diego Union-Tribune noted that “within two years of retiring, three out of four N.F.L. players will be one or more of the following: alcohol or drug addicted; divorced; or financially distressed/bankrupt. Junior Seau was all three.”
In the same article, the newspaper reported that the suicide rate for men who have played in the N.F.L. is nearly six times the national average.
The Union-Tribune maintains a database of N.F.L. players arrested since 2000. The list is long, and the league is lousy with criminal activity so varied it defies belief. The quarterback Michael Vick of course staged inhumane dog fights; the wide receiver Plaxico Burress accidentally shot himself in the leg with a gun he’d toted illegally into a nightclub; the wide receiver Dez Bryant was accused of assaulting his own mother.
How all of this misfortune and all of these misdeeds do and don’t relate to one another isn’t clear. But to be an N.F.L. fan these days is to feel morally conflicted, even morally compromised, because you’re supporting something that corrodes too many lives.
The Chiefs quarterback Brady Quinn said on Sunday that Belcher’s bloody end left him wondering “what I could have done differently.” That’s a question that everyone in the N.F.L. should mull.
And we fans must demand it. On Monday morning, what didn’t feel right wasn’t just my neck, but also my conscience.
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OK...thanks Another.
Tell me, do you honestly think that Belcher is going to impact the NFL negatively in anyway? Nothing else has....
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OK...thanks Another.
Tell me, do you honestly think that Belcher is going to impact the NFL negatively in anyway? Nothing else has....
Literature is full of "little-guy-taking-down-the-giant" stories. David, Gulliver, Jack, George Newman, etc.... just pick one.
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OK...thanks Another.
Tell me, do you honestly think that Belcher is going to impact the NFL negatively in anyway? Nothing else has....
First I don't think it should but ... the damage is already done. It's too late.
The NFL will constantly fight these allegations, after every terrible incident, every arrest, every injury. Next will come investigation reports of the terrible life NFL players live in retirement.
Then they will lose the concussion lawsuit. Why because it will never stop it will go on and on. They will agree to put a large sum into a trust for those injured.
This will cause insurance to skyrocket and most of the high school programs will close because they cannot afford the insurance. Freshman, Sophomore and JV football will be a thing of the past. College will follow after that, starting with NAIA and D3 and working up.
This will not happen overnight, it will happen over many years. It will not start with the NFL, it will end with the NFL. It will start with high school and then college.
The ONLY way this can be stopped is to radically change the game to dramatically reduce the injuries. Turn it into flag football. If that happens, we will all lose interest.
This is the peak of football, it will go down, and the conference realignment is setting up major universities in conferences that will not deliver the money they think and no rivals that will cause college sports to lose its luster.
Sorry, but stick a fork in football, it peak is now, but it will take time to unfold.
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Ironically Jerry Kramer wrote a story for Deadspin today where he divulged that he was going to buy part of the Saints in the 70s, but eventually decided not to because he thought the NFL had peaked.
IOW, you can keep saying it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
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Ironically Jerry Kramer wrote a story for Deadspin today where he divulged that he was going to buy part of the Saints in the 70s, but eventually decided not to because he thought the NFL had peaked.
IOW, you can keep saying it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
He was partially correct ... the NFL (if measured by ratings) peaked in the late 1970s.
One Measure
The 1978 Superbowl had 78 million viewers
The 2005 Superbowl had 86 million viewers
The 2012 Superbowl had 115 million viewers
Or
1983 Superbowl viewed by 40 million households
2001 Superbowl viewed by 40 million households
2012 Superbowl viewed by 55 million households
So the NFL stagnated for a long time until it started back up.
Note: Looked it up and changed my original post
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Yeah, but almost all ratings are done now. Back then there were 3 over the air networks. Today there are 4 plus 100's of cable networks and millions of other things to do that weren't even conceived yet in the 1970's.
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There's a saying in the insurance industry along the lines of "death is cheap, injuries are debilitating."
Sadly, the best case scenario for the NFL is more deaths.... fewer settlements they'll have to pay out later.
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There's a saying in the insurance industry along the lines of "death is cheap, injuries are debilitating."
Sadly, the best case scenario for the NFL is more deaths.... fewer settlements they'll have to pay out later.
Correct, disability insurance is 8 to 10 times more expensive than life insurance.
Why do you think no one has disability insurance. It would cost upwards of 15% to 20% of yearly income.
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Yeah, but almost all ratings are done now. Back then there were 3 over the air networks. Today there are 4 plus 100's of cable networks and millions of other things to do that weren't even conceived yet in the 1970's.
Correct, the NFL is saturated in the US. The only place it can grow is in foreign countries. And how did NFL Europe do?
Also, the NFL has an agreement, as part of last year's Collective Bargaining Agreement, to expand the season to 22 games. They are talking about going to 18 initially.
Think injuries are an issue now, wait until the league gets greedy and goes to 22 games (and then an expanded playoffs).
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Correct, disability insurance is 8 to 10 times more expensive than life insurance.
Why do you think no one has disability insurance. It would cost upwards of 15% to 20% of yearly income.
actually, the NFL teams do provide workers comp insurance, which picks up all of the injury payments. The long term disability and lifetime medicals is what is going to kill the league in terms of paying premiums and/or claims.
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8316657/nfl-teams-facing-large-bills-related-workers-compensation-claims-head-injuries (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8316657/nfl-teams-facing-large-bills-related-workers-compensation-claims-head-injuries)
as far as disability goes, the average person will have 7 disability claims in their lifetime. the average for life insurance is 1.
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Another Saturday, another NFL player killed. Should we start taking bets on which NFL player is killed next Saturday and how?
Josh Brent arrested after fatal crash
http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/8726659/josh-brent-dallas-cowboys-arrested-intoxication-manslaughter-accident-kills-jerry-brown
This has nothing to do with concussions, it has everything to do with making NFL players unlikable. It has everything to do with NFL players perceived to be a menace to society off the field.
This is another brick in the wall that leads to a peak in the NFL's popularity and a decline down the road.
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Another Saturday, another NFL player killed. Should we start taking bets on which NFL player is killed next Saturday and how?
Josh Brent arrested after fatal crash
http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/8726659/josh-brent-dallas-cowboys-arrested-intoxication-manslaughter-accident-kills-jerry-brown
This has nothing to do with concussions, it has everything to do with making NFL players unlikable. It has everything to do with NFL players perceived to be a menace to society off the field.
This is another brick in the wall that leads to a peak in the NFL's popularity and a decline down the road.
You sound almost gleeful about this. Are you going to troll the internet every weekend in hopes to find more news about NFL players behaving badly?
I mean, wait until one of their most marketable players gets caught in a dog fighting ring.... There is no way any team will ever sign that player again, give him a big contract, and make him marketable again. Ratings for sure will start to dip then!!!!
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You sound almost gleeful about this. Are you going to troll the internet every weekend in hopes to find more news about NFL players behaving badly?
I mean, wait until one of their most marketable players gets caught in a dog fighting ring.... There is no way any team will ever sign that player again, give him a big contract, and make him marketable again. Ratings for sure will start to dip then!!!!
Sure, sure. But that was dogs.
This is an NFL player charged with causing another's death. That's certain to destroy the league.
Like with these guys:
(http://cbskool2.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/ray-lewis.jpg?w=110&h=110&crop=1) (http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/3897.jpg)
(http://media.trb.com/media/photo/2009-05/23456305927420-28143609.jpg) (http://www.nndb.com/people/032/000045894/leonard-little.jpg)
(http://sportsclimax.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/dwayne-goodrich-mugshot-150x150.jpg) (http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/666/924/kane_tommy_big_381_display_image.jpg?1296007169)
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Stop. I think you are going to give Another a woody just looking at those NFL players who have behaved badly.
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Another Saturday, another NFL player killed. Should we start taking bets on which NFL player is killed next Saturday and how?
Josh Brent arrested after fatal crash
http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/8726659/josh-brent-dallas-cowboys-arrested-intoxication-manslaughter-accident-kills-jerry-brown
This has nothing to do with concussions, it has everything to do with making NFL players unlikable. It has everything to do with NFL players perceived to be a menace to society off the field.
This is another brick in the wall that leads to a peak in the NFL's popularity and a decline down the road.
There are on average 29 people killed EVERY DAY of the year in this country as a result of drunk driving car crashes, the same accident that took the life of this Dallas Cowboy.
Maybe we should ban alcohol or driving, or both?
When you say things like it makes players unlikable....compared to whom? Do you think a lot of people can't wait to get behind NBA players and their illegitimate kids, drug use, etc? (just because some do it, doesn't mean they all do it) There are all kinds of the very issues you bring up about football that people are completely turned off with by hoops and their issues. You can't isolate one and ignore the other. At the end of the day was either player killed because of football? Belcher had issues before he ever played one down of football in his life if you read the stories out this week.
I know you are latched on to this idea that NFL popularity is going to fall, but I'd like to know what is going to fill the void? I see the numbers every day, it's part of my job. We don't see NFL popularity waning at this point, at least not in terms of its relationship to other sports. Sure, ratings ebb and flow and popularity may come down but its not going to be at the expense of something else, certainly not basketball. If anything ultimately kills sports, it will be the money.
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Chicos,
I'm not saying it should be banned. But always citing this stuff happens everywhere is naive. Yeah it happens everywhere, but look at statistics.
These type of violent events and grossly inappropriate behavior is rampant in the NFL (and MLB), they've created a culture that lacks accountability and encourages the use of substances that promote violent outbursts. Couple that with brain injuries and you have a group of people incapable of functioning appropriately in society.
If these were isolated events every couple years not a big deal as statistically it is bound to happen, but year in and year out signifies a problem.
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Chicos,
I'm not saying it should be banned. But always citing this stuff happens everywhere is naive. Yeah it happens everywhere, but look at statistics.
These type of violent events and grossly inappropriate behavior is rampant in the NFL (and MLB), they've created a culture that lacks accountability and encourages the use of substances that promote violent outbursts. Couple that with brain injuries and you have a group of people incapable of functioning appropriately in society.
If these were isolated events every couple years not a big deal as statistically it is bound to happen, but year in and year out signifies a problem.
Define "rampant."
Also, in regards to the use of substances that promote violent outbursts do you:
1. Have any evidence that any of these violent outbursts are tied to such substances?
2. Any evidence that it's different today than 30-40 years ago when it was the Wild West when it comes to steroid use in the NFL?
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NFL popularity will wane when the product does. It will take years or decades. However once insurance costs make Pop Warner cost-prohibitive, it will start to move up the chain. The NFL benefits greatly from having free minor leagues. If that goes away, it will put a massive dent in the NFL. Even if they begin handling their own farm system, a huge part of NFL popularity is the year-round nature of it. The popularity that occurs from February through April surrounding the draft. Take away the draft and you take away a lot of what has helped grow the NFL machine. I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of what goes on in that league from February through early August, and most of that is fueled by the existence of the college game. Take that away and you're cutting out the legs from under.
Again, most likely decades away, but the NFL will eventually fall. All sports do.
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Chicos,
I'm not saying it should be banned. But always citing this stuff happens everywhere is naive. Yeah it happens everywhere, but look at statistics.
These type of violent events and grossly inappropriate behavior is rampant in the NFL (and MLB), they've created a culture that lacks accountability and encourages the use of substances that promote violent outbursts. Couple that with brain injuries and you have a group of people incapable of functioning appropriately in society.
If these were isolated events every couple years not a big deal as statistically it is bound to happen, but year in and year out signifies a problem.
Do you know how many players actually suffer head injuries? Most players never have a head injury. Linemen and defensive linemen for examples.
Look, the USA as a whole has created a culture where accountability isn't there. We can use any number of examples daily in govt, corporate, personal behavior, parenting, etc. the list is endless.
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NFL popularity will wane when the product does. It will take years or decades. However once insurance costs make Pop Warner cost-prohibitive, it will start to move up the chain. The NFL benefits greatly from having free minor leagues. If that goes away, it will put a massive dent in the NFL. Even if they begin handling their own farm system, a huge part of NFL popularity is the year-round nature of it. The popularity that occurs from February through April surrounding the draft. Take away the draft and you take away a lot of what has helped grow the NFL machine. I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of what goes on in that league from February through early August, and most of that is fueled by the existence of the college game. Take that away and you're cutting out the legs from under.
The popularity of the draft is a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn't event televised until the early 1980s, and then (and for the next several years) it was a super low-budget production held in a hotel ballroom. Not suggesting that draft hoopla hasn't helped, but the league was well on its way to King of the Mountain status before anyone cared about the draft.
Also, baseball and hockey haven't been harmed by the lack of a significant college counterpart, and the NBA's popularity didn't suffer when many of its top draftees came straight from high school or, more recently, spent only one year in college. Take away college football, and there's still a draft. And people will still watch because most fans are interested to see who their NFL teams is selecting, not which college they're coming from.
Again, most likely decades away, but the NFL will eventually fall. All sports do.
They do?
Examples please (not counting those which ended in death of participants, of course).
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The popularity of the draft is a relatively new phenomenon. It wasn't event televised until the early 1980s, and then (and for the next several years) it was a super low-budget production held in a hotel ballroom. Not suggesting that draft hoopla hasn't helped, but the league was well on its way to King of the Mountain status before anyone cared about the draft.
Not the 1980s I lived in. At that time, the NFL was big, but it wasn't close to what it is now. Not remotely. It was still competing with basketball and behind baseball. The draft and the development of the 365-day NFL cycle was what changed that, in my opinion. That, coupled with people following fantasy year-round propelled the NFL above the rest.
Also, baseball and hockey haven't been harmed by the lack of a significant college counterpart, and the NBA's popularity didn't suffer when many of its top draftees came straight from high school or, more recently, spent only one year in college. Take away college football, and there's still a draft. And people will still watch because most fans are interested to see who their NFL teams is selecting, not which college they're coming from.
I think you misunderstand my premise. There won't BE a draft for the NFL without the current youth system. If football goes away from Pop Warner, if it becomes too dangerous for high schools, and if insurance costs are too high for universities, NFL teams will have to have their own youth programs, similar to the European soccer leagues, and to a lesser extent, baseball. The draft is big because people have watched these guys play at a high level and because they can have an instant impact on the game. In Europe, they cultivate players from the time they are 8 years old. There is no draft to follow because of that. In baseball, guys often spend years in the farm system before having an impact.
The closest draft in terms of relevance is the NBA, but that isn't a weekend-long event, it's a couple hours on a Thursday. The draft is a massive spectacle for many reasons, and anyone who doesn't realize just how closely the NFL's rise in popularity from the late 1970s through today coupled with the advent and growth of the draft and fantasy creating a year-round NFL news cycle isn't paying attention.
They do? Examples please (not counting those which ended in death of participants, of course).
Sure. Boxing used to be the biggest sport in this country. So did baseball. In terms of football, the college game used to be more popular than the pro version. Or you could look at auto racing, which has waxed and waned. It was huge, it fell off (and Indy all but died), and then NASCAR grew again. In terms of growth, we see MMA starting to become more and more viable while other sports go away. It's cyclical. The NFL won't be immune to that.
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Do you know how many players actually suffer head injuries? Most players never have a head injury. Linemen and defensive linemen for examples.
Look, the USA as a whole has created a culture where accountability isn't there. We can use any number of examples daily in govt, corporate, personal behavior, parenting, etc. the list is endless.
Given that damage to the brain cannot be determined until autopsy, your comment is at best incorrect and bordering on completely ignorant.
Leave politics out of this.
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Not the 1980s I lived in. At that time, the NFL was big, but it wasn't close to what it is now. Not remotely. It was still competing with basketball and behind baseball. The draft and the development of the 365-day NFL cycle was what changed that, in my opinion. That, coupled with people following fantasy year-round propelled the NFL above the rest.
I think if you go back and track revenues, TV ratings, merchandise sales, etc. going back to the late 70s, you'd see that the growth of the NFL was far outpacing that of MLB (except for a brief downturn after the '82 strike). Hence, my statement that the NFL was "well on its way" to being king.
For example, look no further than the Super Bowl. the five most watched Super Bowls, in terms of share, occurred between 1978 and 1986 - a time when you think it's dominance had yet to even begin. Of the 12 most watched Super Bowls, which are among the 25 most watched TV programs ever, only one occurred after 1994.
So, yeah, the NFL was well on its way to dominance before the draft was a big deal. Not suggesting the draft (and fantasy, which you tossed in and seems irrelevant to whether high school and college ball continues) don't help, but clearly they were not THE driving factors.
I think you misunderstand my premise. There won't BE a draft for the NFL without the current youth system.
You're conflating issues here.
The reason there are drafts here, and not drafts in Europe, isn't because of the respective youth systems. It's because that's how those professional systems have chosen to operate. There's nothing about the American youth system that necessitates a draft. That's simply the method by which league owners (with their respective PAs) have chosen to proceed with player entry.
I'm not sure how wiping out Pop Warner would eliminate the NFL Draft.
Sure. Boxing used to be the biggest sport in this country. So did baseball. In terms of football, the college game used to be more popular than the pro version. Or you could look at auto racing, which has waxed and waned. It was huge, it fell off (and Indy all but died), and then NASCAR grew again. In terms of growth, we see MMA starting to become more and more viable while other sports go away. It's cyclical. The NFL won't be immune to that.
The third Pacquiao vs Marquez fight generated 1.3 million pay-per-view buys, numbers that were expected to be replicated by last night's fight, at $60 (standard) to $70 (HD) per pop. The gate for last night's fight was over $10.5 million. ESPN broke into its programming for live updates of the fight. Fights at Cowboy Stadium have drawn 50,000 fans paying more than $100 per ticket.
Hardly seems to be a dead sport.
Yeah, it's popularity has fallen off, but that's not result of some magical sports cycle. It's the result of specific decisions by the people who run the sport to make it less accessible and interesting to the general public (i.e. PPV, competing organizations, crappy fights, etc.).
Auto racing is something I could go on for a while with as well, but suffice to say it - and especially Indy racing - also is not victim of magic cycle. It's a victim of greed and stupidity by Tony George.
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Given that damage to the brain cannot be determined until autopsy, your comment is at best incorrect and bordering on completely ignorant.
Leave politics out of this.
Uhm, wrong. Brain damage can be determined before an autopsy, it is done all the time in modern medicine with living patients. They've been doing this for decades. So my comment is not incorrect and certainly not ignorant.
As for the politics comment, I don't think I went there at all. There are examples of people, institutions, etc, not taking accountability in all walks of life and more so in our society today then generations past. That is not even questionable at any level.
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I think if you go back and track revenues, TV ratings, merchandise sales, etc. going back to the late 70s, you'd see that the growth of the NFL was far outpacing that of MLB (except for a brief downturn after the '82 strike). Hence, my statement that the NFL was "well on its way" to being king.
For example, look no further than the Super Bowl. the five most watched Super Bowls, in terms of share, occurred between 1978 and 1986 - a time when you think it's dominance had yet to even begin. Of the 12 most watched Super Bowls, which are among the 25 most watched TV programs ever, only one occurred after 1994.
So, yeah, the NFL was well on its way to dominance before the draft was a big deal. Not suggesting the draft (and fantasy, which you tossed in and seems irrelevant to whether high school and college ball continues) don't help, but clearly they were not THE driving factors.
Bold is incorrect. The last two or maybe three Super Bowls have each set a record for most watched television program in history per Nielsen.
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Bold is incorrect. The last two or maybe three Super Bowls have each set a record for most watched television program in history per Nielsen.
In terms of sheer numbers. Not in terms of percent of households. I made note of the fact I was talking about share in the sentence above the one you put in bold.
More people watched the more recent games because there are millions more people watching TV in 2012 than were in 1982.
Of course, I may be a fool for relying on Wikipedia for anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_watched_television_broadcasts
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In terms of sheer numbers. Not in terms of percent of households. I made note of the fact I was talking about share in the sentence above the one you put in bold.
More people watched the more recent games because there are millions more people watching TV in 2012 than were in 1982.
Of course, I may be a fool for relying on Wikipedia for anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_watched_television_broadcasts
Yes, I reread after posting and figured you meant share. My bad.
Different world back in the '80s and '90s in terms of fragmentation of audience/proliferation of viewing options.
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So the contention is that every sport has either maintained or gained in popularity? Really? That's simply ludicrous. Boxing is as big as ever becaus LW of Pacqiao Marquez? Really? I may not vividly remember the 1960s and 70s (and earlier) but contending boxing hasn't fallen miles off where it once was is simply daft. Sports wax and wane. That's just reality, I don't really think it's a debatable point.
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So the contention is that every sport has either maintained or gained in popularity? Really? That's simply ludicrous. Boxing is as big as ever becaus LW of Pacqiao Marquez? Really? I may not vividly remember the 1960s and 70s (and earlier) but contending boxing hasn't fallen miles off where it once was is simply daft. Sports wax and wane. That's just reality, I don't really think it's a debatable point.
Ummm, yeah. I said nothing like any of the statements above.
And declaring your point "reality" and "not debateable" = Danth's Law (i.e. If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly.)
But if sports popularity is cyclical, should we expect the return of chariot races? And when will boxing and horse racing return to eminence?
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Yes, I reread after posting and figured you meant share. My bad.
Different world back in the '80s and '90s in terms of fragmentation of audience/proliferation of viewing options.
Not to mention that the Super Bowl is now being broadcast to 28,345 countries now... it was only available in three just a couple of decades ago.
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So the contention is that every sport has either maintained or gained in popularity? Really? That's simply ludicrous. Boxing is as big as ever becaus LW of Pacqiao Marquez? Really? I may not vividly remember the 1960s and 70s (and earlier) but contending boxing hasn't fallen miles off where it once was is simply daft. Sports wax and wane. That's just reality, I don't really think it's a debatable point.
Cyclical, but to a degree. Baseball and football have dominated the most popular sports in the USA for many decades. Soccer remains the most popular world wide. Their level of popularity may rise and fall some, but that doesn't mean something else supplants it.
I'm a passionate hockey fan, I don't think it will ever be #1 in the USA and will likely always be #4. Boxing and horse racing used to be very relevant in the US sports scene, but I don't see them coming back. UFC has done quite well, but one would argue (rightly in my opinion) that they are probably at their zenith or close to it.
I agree with your earlier posts that the NFL has benfitted from a free minor leagues, no question about it. On the other hand, that college football system has benefitted many colleges also. I just don't see anything remotely on the horizon where college football goes away or is diminished in any sense where it ends up hurting the NFL. On Pop Warner and high school football, more popular than ever. Yes there are issues of concern, insurance rates are going up (where are they NOT going up...we live in a litigious society) but participation remains strong. Pop Warner uses weight limits and severely curtails hitting in practice. They are going to do what they need to in order to protect the kids in my view. As long as the kids and parents feel safe, they'll keep playing. I honestly have seen more of a concern out here about little league, Pony ball and even soccer than football. In soccer, no one is protected and there have been some really serious injuries. My son is goal keeper and I hold my breath on every corner kick with some of these guys barreling in on him. Baseball, the emergence of the composite bats and subsequent reduction of their use...the distance of the pitching mound hasn't changed despite bigger, stronger kids at younger ages. There are risks everywhere.
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Uhm, wrong. Brain damage can be determined before an autopsy, it is done all the time in modern medicine with living patients. They've been doing this for decades. So my comment is not incorrect and certainly not ignorant.
As for the politics comment, I don't think I went there at all. There are examples of people, institutions, etc, not taking accountability in all walks of life and more so in our society today then generations past. That is not even questionable at any level.
The type of damage that everyone refers to with sports athletes cannot be determined ante-mortem. It has to be determined from autopsy.
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The type of damage that everyone refers to with sports athletes cannot be determined ante-mortem. It has to be determined from autopsy.
Yes and no.
You're likely referring to CTE, which cannot be determined until post-mortem.
But there are other brain conditions that can be suffered by athletes that are diagnosed before death, such as Alzheimer's and ALS.
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Ummm, yeah. I said nothing like any of the statements above.
And declaring your point "reality" and "not debateable" = Danth's Law (i.e. If you have to insist that you've won an Internet argument, you've probably lost badly.)
But if sports popularity is cyclical, should we expect the return of chariot races? And when will boxing and horse racing return to eminence?
I don't mean the same sports wax and wane, I mean sports rise and fall in popularity. And if you think there's a legitimate argument that boxing hasn't fallen massively in popularity...well, cite any Internet law you like, but I don't think you'll find many people to support you on that one.
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Not to mention that the Super Bowl is now being broadcast to 28,345 countries now... it was only available in three just a couple of decades ago.
the Super Bowl set a record for highest viewed TV show in history for three years running in the US. To my knowledge, Nielsen doesn't measure foreign viewership at all so has nothing to do with the # of countries in which the game is broadcast. If I knew how to link it I would.
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One page ago
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32449.msg424755#msg424755
the NFL (if measured by ratings) peaked in the late 1970s.
The 1978 Superbowl had 78 million viewers
The 2005 Superbowl had 86 million viewers
The 2012 Superbowl had 115 million viewers
Or
1983 Superbowl viewed by 40 million households
2001 Superbowl viewed by 40 million households
2012 Superbowl viewed by 55 million households
So the NFL stagnated for a long time until it started back up.
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You can see decline in brain function pre death. Here is one study in the premier Orthopedic and Sports Physical Therapy journal (chief edited by our ortho professor at Marquette)
http://www.jospt.org/issues/articleID.2775/article_detail.asp
32 of 45 Division 1 football players had a measurable decline in either balance or an ImPACT test after the season. All 45 were NEVER diagnosed with a concussion. If that doesn't concern you as a parent, I don't know what can. Now you can debate the validity of ImPACT or the balance test that they used, but you cannot debate brain scans of sub-dural hematomas in youth football players. Tackle football in developing brains is dangerous, and really negligent. My wife (an advanced practitioner in pediatric neurology) and myself (a physical therapist with advanced training in concussion management) will never, ever allow a future son to play football. It helps that we have a combined weight of 260 pounds and we both were very disinterested in football as children.
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Yes and no.
You're likely referring to CTE, which cannot be determined until post-mortem.
But there are other brain conditions that can be suffered by athletes that are diagnosed before death, such as Alzheimer's and ALS.
Thanks Pakuni, I was indeed referring to CTE. You are right there are other types of damage that can be seen before death and as MUDPT indicates it is pretty universal.
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You can see decline in brain function pre death. Here is one study in the premier Orthopedic and Sports Physical Therapy journal (chief edited by our ortho professor at Marquette)
http://www.jospt.org/issues/articleID.2775/article_detail.asp
32 of 45 Division 1 football players had a measurable decline in either balance or an ImPACT test after the season. All 45 were NEVER diagnosed with a concussion. If that doesn't concern you as a parent, I don't know what can. Now you can debate the validity of ImPACT or the balance test that they used, but you cannot debate brain scans of sub-dural hematomas in youth football players. Tackle football in developing brains is dangerous, and really negligent. My wife (an advanced practitioner in pediatric neurology) and myself (a physical therapist with advanced training in concussion management) will never, ever allow a future son to play football. It helps that we have a combined weight of 260 pounds and we both were very disinterested in football as children.
how much is the old lady? PTM would really be happy if you weighed 60 lbs.
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One page ago
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32449.msg424755#msg424755
the NFL (if measured by ratings) peaked in the late 1970s.
The 1978 Superbowl had 78 million viewers
The 2005 Superbowl had 86 million viewers
The 2012 Superbowl had 115 million viewers
Or
1983 Superbowl viewed by 40 million households
2001 Superbowl viewed by 40 million households
2012 Superbowl viewed by 55 million households
So the NFL stagnated for a long time until it started back up.
You're doing some cherry picking here.
Could it be that you chose 1978 because it had the largest viewership of any of the first 25 Super Bowls? And why '05 (86 million) and not '04 (Just under 90 million) or '06 (over 90 million)?
There's no stagnation. Some years have drawn better than others based on matchups (doesn't hurt, for example, to have big markets Boston vs New York or popular teams like Dallas vs Pittsurgh), but by and large there's been consistent growth.
10-year averages
1972-81 = 63.6 million
82-91 = 82.5 million
92-01 = 87.2 million
02-12 = 94.9 million
As I said, consistent growth. Particulary so over the past 30 years.
Here are the numbers
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/02/04/will-super-bowl-xlvi-tv-viewership-set-another-record-poll-ratings-history/118656/
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I don't mean the same sports wax and wane, I mean sports rise and fall in popularity. And if you think there's a legitimate argument that boxing hasn't fallen massively in popularity...well, cite any Internet law you like, but I don't think you'll find many people to support you on that one.
Re-read my earlier post, Brew. Here's exactly what I wrote about boxing:
"Yeah, it's (boxing) popularity has fallen off, but that's not result of some magical sports cycle. It's the result of specific decisions by the people who run the sport to make it less accessible and interesting to the general public (i.e. PPV, competing organizations, crappy fights, etc.)."
So, where are you getting the idea that I said boxing's popularity hasn't fallen.
My point is that it's fall isn't the result of some natural cycle of sports popularity, as you seem to be suggesting. It's the result of the way the sport has conducted itself.
Could the NFL's popularity fall? Sure. But it's not fait accompli because of some imaginary cycle.
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The type of damage that everyone refers to with sports athletes cannot be determined ante-mortem. It has to be determined from autopsy.
I don't disagree with you that post mortem is when you are going to likely get the clearest view, at least based on today's technology. But there are tests done when the patient is living that can determine brain damage and these tests have gotten better through time. My wife's mother died several years ago from Alzheimer's and it is amazing what they can determine with testing now.
Many of the very NFL former players suing the NFL are doing so based on the results of tests now, while they are living, that conclude they have suffered some brain trauma....which led to dementia, early Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc.
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You're doing some cherry picking here.
Could it be that you chose 1978 because it had the largest viewership of any of the first 25 Super Bowls? And why '05 (86 million) and not '04 (Just under 90 million) or '06 (over 90 million)?
There's no stagnation. Some years have drawn better than others based on matchups (doesn't hurt, for example, to have big markets Boston vs New York or popular teams like Dallas vs Pittsurgh), but by and large there's been consistent growth.
10-year averages
1972-81 = 63.6 million
82-91 = 82.5 million
92-01 = 87.2 million
02-12 = 94.9 million
As I said, consistent growth. Particulary so over the past 30 years.
Here are the numbers
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/02/04/will-super-bowl-xlvi-tv-viewership-set-another-record-poll-ratings-history/118656/
I would add further that the Super Bowl has kept these ratings, share, etc when most other programs have not been able to do that. It is phenomenal what the NFL continues to do with television ratings, despite a fractured television viewing market that now offers hundreds of alternatives.
Part of this is the event itself, which the NFL has marketed so very well to make it an event not just for football fans, but Americans of all walks. The fact it is one game helps tremendously. Games over a 7 game series cannot compete in ratings unless it comes to a drama filled game 7 for all the marbles.
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I see strong growth in the 1970s, stagnate growth for 30 years and strong growth in the last five years.
(http://www.arborresearch.com/bianco/samples/samples/superbowl1210121_big.gif)
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I see strong growth in the 1970s, stagnate growth for 30 years and strong growth in the last five years.
(http://www.arborresearch.com/bianco/samples/samples/superbowl1210121_big.gif)
Hmmmm.... what trends did we see in the television world starting around 1968 and then again around 2007?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ov_zK2eIdX4/TkMYHw2epnI/AAAAAAAAAcQ/luHh1IbagvI/s1600/Television%2BS-curve.png)
(http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/us-hdtv-by-ethnicity.png)
So if you use Super Bowl audience figures as a proxy for football's popularity, then football's popularity is pretty damn well correlated with the adoption of major technological advances in television. In other words, football isn't more popular... we just watch more games on TV because we're enamored with how much better the games look on the magic picture box than they did a few years ago.
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how much is the old lady? PTM would really be happy if you weighed 60 lbs.
Almost missed this one. Almost.
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I'm surprised this wasn't linked yet. Actually includes a quote by MU law professor John Kircher
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/sports/football/insurance-liability-in-nfl-concussion-suits-may-have-costly-consequences.html?hp
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Benjamins. It's all about the Benjamins.
The amount of money in college football is huge on the television side. Just as the money with boxing, UFC (equally punishing, if not moreso) isn't going away. I could be dead wrong, but because of the money involved (much of it tied up in contracts for the next decade plus) I don't see any declines on the horizon.
High school football is bigger than ever despite the risks. http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/09/08/football-continues-to-dominate-high-school-sports-despite-concussion-risk/
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Dennis Miller: ‘Football should be shut down by Congress and I think they should build a new game’
http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/10/dennis-miller-football-should-be-shut-down-by-congress-and-i-think-they-should-build-a-new-game-audio/#ixzz2EqBiI64j
On his program Monday, comedian and radio talk show host Dennis Miller took on the NFL for micromanaging the game in the name of safety.
Miller’s comments were inspired by a cover story in Time magazine in which NFL commissioner Roger Goodell discussed a proposal to eliminate the kickoff to reduce neck injuries.
To Miller, the NFL’s adjustments have gotten out of hand. And it may be time, he said, to stop tinkering with the rules and just start all over with a new game.
“I think we should reboot this whole thing,” Miller said. “I think American football should be shut down by Congress. And I think they should build a new game so people who, and players too, I’ll be candid with you — I know a few players who think that it’s gotten so crazy and so politically correct and so out of its way and you can’t touch a quarterback, now they’re not happy with it.”
“So why don’t we reboot?” he continued. “Why not let football remain in our memories as something — I don’t think it’s ever the ‘great American game’ like baseball, just because baseball is probably a better game and football innately does have the violence in it — but let’s stop it and leave it at that. Because it turned out that, as guys like [Bob] Costas and [Peter] King were the first to notice, it is a flawed exercise. And come up with a new game where people aren’t constantly thinking, ‘Oh my God. They are just contorting themselves to get around the fact that it is an innately violent game.’”
Miller took on the NFL’s 16-game season too, saying that if NFL commissioner Roger Goodell were anything more than a puppet of the owners, he would shorten the season to 12 or 10 games in the name of “safety.” Short of that, Miller argued, little can be done to change the game and make it safer. “I know that, within the parameters of the game, I don’t think you can change much of it,” he said.
“If you don’t see the encroachment of what you see generally in the society seeping into football — an innately violent game that has built its popularity on that controlled violence, just slightly controlled violence — I don’t know what to tell you,” Miller added. “They’re going to make you feel guilty now that you’re watching it.”
“And if you just say, ‘Kickoffs, you’re going to get rid of kickoffs?’ — ‘What, do you like the neck injuries?’ That will be the play. You either get the one-percent bomb dropped on you, you get the race bomb dropped on you in other fields. In football you’re going to get the ‘Oh, you want to see young men break their necks for your [entertainment].’ That’s how crazy things have gotten.”
“Just get rid of football. Come on, I’ll be OK with it.”
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Here's Bob Costas on Piers Morgan Tonight Monday night.
COSTAS: I don't know if it approaches crisis, perhaps it does, but it's at a crossroads because there's an issue about the fundamental nature of the game. It's so popular and so profitable, but it takes a tremendous toll on many of those who play it. Not just body, but as we're now learning, mind and emotions, and it's a legitimate question to ask whether, for some players at least, the toll that the game takes -- brain trauma, medications that they may take either to enhance performance or deal with pain, all those things, if the culture of the league increases the likelihood of aberrant behavior, it's possible.
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The culture of the league increases the likelihood of aberrant behavior ... they are guilting us into taking too much pleasure from watching this bloodshed and these young men destroy themselves, and wait 'til they throw the race angle in there, which will happen, too.
It's only a matter of time.
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Here's Bob Costas on Piers Morgan Tonight Monday night.
COSTAS: I don't know if it approaches crisis, perhaps it does, but it's at a crossroads because there's an issue about the fundamental nature of the game. It's so popular and so profitable, but it takes a tremendous toll on many of those who play it. Not just body, but as we're now learning, mind and emotions, and it's a legitimate question to ask whether, for some players at least, the toll that the game takes -- brain trauma, medications that they may take either to enhance performance or deal with pain, all those things, if the culture of the league increases the likelihood of aberrant behavior, it's possible.
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The culture of the league increases the likelihood of aberrant behavior ... they are guilting us into taking too much pleasure from watching this bloodshed and these young men destroy themselves, and wait 'til they throw the race angle in there, which will happen, too.
It's only a matter of time.
Bob Costas.....sorry, I just snorted a bit.
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These calls just do not stop. They remind me of the calls to ban smoking in the 1980s. The back then was similar to football now ... smoking is too popular to change. The tobacco companies make so much money that they will buy off the critics. Sound familiar?
So, while I do not believe football SHOULD come under heavy regulation or significant changes, I fear it WILL see exactly that happen.
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UNL professor: Time to change football
http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/unl-professor-time-to-change-football/article_f6054bc0-6b72-5129-add4-e449cb2a788b.html
Tim Gay has a problem.
He loves watching football -- the quarterback sacks and bruising blocks -- and even shows replays of what he considers classic college and NFL collisions before his presentations, including the one he gave Friday at Memorial Stadium.
“What an incredibly beautiful block that was, and that’s what football is all about,” he said after showing a clip of Nebraska’s Kenny Bell hammering Wisconsin’s Devin Smith during last season’s Big Ten championship game.
The University of Nebraska-Lincoln physics professor also understands the long-term physical impacts of those entertaining tackles and collisions, and thinks it’s about time football promoters get serious about protecting players.
“I think we need to worry about how it’s going to affect a player in the future,” he said.
Gay spoke about the physics and future of football, a sport under some fire after more than 4,000 former players filed a class action lawsuit against the NFL, accusing the league of concealing information about brain injuries caused by playing football. Players and scholars, who have begun studying the long-term impacts of football, have put pressure on league officials to improve equipment and tighten regulations, Gay said.
In the past year, nine former NFL players committed suicide, a trend that could be tied to high rates of depression among former professional players, Gay said. Football players also are four times more likely to die of Alzheimer’s and ALS, he said.
Repeated hits on the field translate into chronic pain and headaches, loss of motor skills and joint pain later in life, he said.
“This is a real problem for the organized game of football,” he said.
UNL has taken a lead role in national research efforts to understand and mitigate injuries. The university plans to open the Center for Brain, Biology and Behavior and the Nebraska Athletic Performance Lab -- institutions that will focus largely on studying athletic injuries, especially concussions -- in the new East Stadium addition that will be completed this summer.
“These are really cutting-edge developments,” he said.
Gay became a familiar face to Husker fans during the 1999 and 2000 seasons when his “Football Physics” lessons were shown on HuskerVision during games. The one-minute videos featured UNL football players demonstrating basic physics concepts, such as how Newton’s law of physics applied to blocking and tackling.
He spoke Friday about the dangerous trend of having increasingly bigger and faster players colliding on the field. From 1920 to today, players’ weights have increased 57 percent. From 1920 to 2005, their speeds increased 9.4 percent. That has resulted in nearly 85 percent more energy being dumped on players during plays, he said.
“It’s kind of obvious why we have concussion problems and injury problems,” he said.
He offered several solutions to improving the safety of football, including better padding and helmets, and requiring players to wear certain protective gear like horse collars, which reduce head rotation during impacts. He said mouth guards also have been shown to reduce concussions.
He said football league officials should aggressively test players for performance enhancing chemicals and could start requiring players to sign waivers preventing them from suing football leagues for later medical problems they may encounter. He said football league officials also could reduce the number of games teams play each seasons.
While he dislikes the idea of losing them, Gay also suggested getting rid of “greatest hits” videos that glorify particularly gruesome football tackles and collisions.
One solution put forth by others that Gay didn’t endorse Friday was ending organized football.
“It’s our game, and we love it and we’re not going to let it go,” he said.
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Bob Costas.....sorry, I just snorted a bit.
The ultimate beta-male!
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Wanted to share a story of how over the top this has gotten at the high school level as my son's school. One of his buds is an offensive lineman on the freshman team and he was double teamed and slammed to the ground in their final preseason scrimmage. Helmet came off, he was a little woozy.
He was taken out of the scrimmage and administered a concussion test. Nothing conclusive, so sent to ER for more tests. He passed the test, no concussion.
Fast forward one week, he is not allowed to play in first game because his concussion test by the school doctors was inconclusive, even though the ER said he was cleared.
Fast forward to week two, still not allowed to play, despite 2nd opinion from another doctor that he has no concussion.
Fast forward to week three, still not allowed to play....district not comfortable.
For Freshman football, there are only 6 games, the kid worked his tail off all Summer and has already missed half the season due to a concussion policy and....drumroll....HE DIDN'T HAVE A CONCUSSION!!! The school district is so scared of being sued they are on overdrive. The parents, good friends of ours, have offered to sign a complete waiver indemnifying them....no go. Hearing next week, in which case he misses his 4th game before the hearing.
Unintended consequences....always the unintended consequences that nobody accounts for when things are really put into the real world.
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Wanted to share a story of how over the top this has gotten at the high school level as my son's school. One of his buds is an offensive lineman on the freshman team and he was double teamed and slammed to the ground in their final preseason scrimmage. Helmet came off, he was a little woozy.
He was taken out of the scrimmage and administered a concussion test. Nothing conclusive, so sent to ER for more tests. He passed the test, no concussion.
Fast forward one week, he is not allowed to play in first game because his concussion test by the school doctors was inconclusive, even though the ER said he was cleared.
Fast forward to week two, still not allowed to play, despite 2nd opinion from another doctor that he has no concussion.
Fast forward to week three, still not allowed to play....district not comfortable.
For Freshman football, there are only 6 games, the kid worked his tail off all Summer and has already missed half the season due to a concussion policy and....drumroll....HE DIDN'T HAVE A CONCUSSION!!! The school district is so scared of being sued they are on overdrive. The parents, good friends of ours, have offered to sign a complete waiver indemnifying them....no go. Hearing next week, in which case he misses his 4th game before the hearing.
Unintended consequences....always the unintended consequences that nobody accounts for when things are really put into the real world.
Good story
Let me guess as to why this is. The district's insurance premiums are crushing now and if they do not hold him out, and something happened, next year's insurance premiums are 5x to 10x. Further, if they did not hold him out and something happened and his parent sued the district, the insurance company would deny coverage.
Most of the time these are financial decisions driving by compliance with insurance policies.