MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: WhiteTrash on August 04, 2022, 08:58:53 PM
-
So what is the deal with Bronny? 4 star senior with only two offers from NC A&T and NC Central. What am I missing?
-
So what is the deal with Bronny? 4 star senior with only two offers from NC A&T and NC Central. What am I missing?
Porn star?
-
So what is the deal with Bronny? 4 star senior with only two offers from NC A&T and NC Central. What am I missing?
He's probably not going to college.
-
He's a bit better version of Zaire Wade at this point. 4-star, but not someone who's clearly a future NBA player. His recruitment has been really odd, because some programs that call with interest are immediately told "he's not going there" but some programs that are on his list have said they aren't involved and aren't recruiting him.
He probably ends up on G League Ignite, and Lebron has said that his last NBA season will be the one when he plays with his son, but right now his son isn't a clear NBA talent, so who knows how that ends up (other than probably badly)?
-
He's a bit better version of Zaire Wade at this point. 4-star, but not someone who's clearly a future NBA player. His recruitment has been really odd, because some programs that call with interest are immediately told "he's not going there" but some programs that are on his list have said they aren't involved and aren't recruiting him.
He probably ends up on G League Ignite, and Lebron has said that his last NBA season will be the one when he plays with his son, but right now his son isn't a clear NBA talent, so who knows how that ends up (other than probably badly)?
YEP.
If you watch his highlights, he's not a pure scorer and he's not overly athletic. It seems kind of funny being Lebron's kid, but he's a 6'3/6'4 guard who is nowhere near dunking in a game scenario, very much below the rim.
His best features right now are that he's a pretty good on ball defender and a good passer. But he's not a PG and he's not nearly a good enough scorer to be an elite 2 guard. Forget the NBA, if he wasn't Lebron's son, he wouldn't be a surefire high major player IMO.
-
He's a bit better version of Zaire Wade at this point. 4-star, but not someone who's clearly a future NBA player. His recruitment has been really odd, because some programs that call with interest are immediately told "he's not going there" but some programs that are on his list have said they aren't involved and aren't recruiting him.
He probably ends up on G League Ignite, and Lebron has said that his last NBA season will be the one when he plays with his son, but right now his son isn't a clear NBA talent, so who knows how that ends up (other than probably badly)?
He's almost certain to end up on an NBA roster with Lebron in 2 years, but will likely only play until Lebron retires (probably 1 year). He's Wally to Lebron's Henry.
The Antetokounmpo family has proven that NBA teams are willing to structure rosters to make a superstar happy. Just like Thanasis, Bronny will play sparingly, so his actual talent or readiness for the NBA won't be much of an issue. But Lebron will get his Ken Griffey moment.
-
Classic selfish lebron strong arming a franchise to sign him and his son. Frankly bronny would benefit playing a few years in college/g league to bulk up and adjust to the increased speed of the game, but Lebron craves his own special moment.
-
Classic selfish lebron strong arming a franchise to sign him and his son. Frankly bronny would benefit playing a few years in college/g league to bulk up and adjust to the increased speed of the game, but Lebron craves his own special moment.
agreed. Any franchise that wants LeBron is going to need to sign Bronny.
But let's not think this is a LeBron only thing. Wade had Zaire put on the Utah G-League team.
In 13 games with the Stars, Wade is second to last in points, averaging only 4.6 points per game with 1.5 rebounds and 1.9 assists to go along with it.
-
agreed. Any franchise that wants LeBron is going to need to sign Bronny.
But let's not think this is a LeBron only thing. Wade had Zaire put on the Utah G-League team.
In 13 games with the Stars, Wade is second to last in points, averaging only 4.6 points per game with 1.5 rebounds and 1.9 assists to go along with it.
G league is one thing but making the proclamation that wherever I will be, Bronny will be is classic lebron.
-
Classic selfish lebron strong arming a franchise to sign him and his son. Frankly bronny would benefit playing a few years in college/g league to bulk up and adjust to the increased speed of the game, but Lebron craves his own special moment.
It’s a roster spot making minimum salary. Really not that big of a deal.
-
It’s a roster spot making minimum salary. Really not that big of a deal.
Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a me first move
-
Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a me first move
OMG a professional athlete making a “me first” move? Shocking.
-
And a parent catering to their child...Even more shocking
-
OMG a professional athlete making a “me first” move? Shocking.
If we can’t complain about athletes making ridiculous demands, what can we even complain about ?!
Maybe guys on message boards who try to act smarter than everyone else at every possible opportunity.
-
If we can’t complain about athletes making ridiculous demands, what can we even complain about ?!
Maybe guys on message boards who try to act smarter than everyone else at every possible opportunity.
Sorry you have the inability to have your statements challenged without resorting to insults. I’ll make sure to dumb it down in the future.
-
Sorry you have the inability to have your statements challenged without resorting to insults. I’ll make sure to dumb it down in the future.
And I’ll make sure to remember you played pick up against a guy who played NAIA basketball lol
-
And I’ll make sure to remember you played pick up against a guy who played NAIA basketball lol
Thanks. That’s one thing more than I’ll ever remember about you.
-
Thanks. That’s one thing more than I’ll ever remember about you.
Small brain is nothing to brag about
-
G league is one thing but making the proclamation that wherever I will be, Bronny will be is classic lebron.
May be the first time in human history a dad has used his connections to help his kid land a job.
-
May be the first time in human history a dad has used his connections to help his kid land a job.
Give me one other example in the nba of how a father makes that kind declaration about his and his sons future.
-
Give me one other example in the nba of how a father makes that kind declaration about his and his sons future.
How about in the NFL when Archie Manning made it clear Eli wouldn’t play for the Chargers organization?
Players run the NBA 🤷🏼♂️
-
How about in the NFL when Archie Manning made it clear Eli wouldn’t play for the Chargers organization?
Players run the NBA 🤷🏼♂️
Totally different. Eli belonged in the nfl. Bronny has not business of playing in the nba now
-
Totally different. Eli belonged in the nfl. Bronny has not business of playing in the nba now
But Alex and Thanasis are legit NBA types right? It’s a low cost way to keep a star happy.
-
But Alex and Thanasis are legit NBA types right? It’s a low cost way to keep a star happy.
Closer than bronny is - plus the bucks made a long term investment in Giannis. A franchise only gets one year of team James.
-
May be the first time in human history a dad has used his connections to help his kid land a job.
A job…..that he was no way no how qualified for.
But you’re right — Lebron isn’t the first Dad to be a jagoff and flex his muscles for an underserving son. But (like it always has) it still sucks.
-
Tim Maymon. And others.
-
Closer than bronny is - plus the bucks made a long term investment in Giannis. A franchise only gets one year of team James.
And a declining James at that.
-
And a declining James at that.
Bruh ... he's still a top 10 NBA player. Arguably top 5. If the price of adding a player of his abilities - not to mention one who would sell tickets- is sticking his kid on the bench, it's a great deal.
-
Totally different. Eli belonged in the nfl. Bronny has not business of playing in the nba now
Typical LeBron hater ::)
-
Bruh ... he's still a top 10 NBA player. Arguably top 5. If the price of adding a player of his abilities - not to mention one who would sell tickets- is sticking his kid on the bench, it's a great deal.
Exactly. All but a couple teams make that deal in a heartbeat.
-
A job…..that he was no way no how qualified for.
But you’re right — Lebron isn’t the first Dad to be a jagoff and flex his muscles for an underserving son. But (like it always has) it still sucks.
Guys, do we tell him?
-
Bruh ... he's still a top 10 NBA player. Arguably top 5. If the price of adding a player of his abilities - not to mention one who would sell tickets- is sticking his kid on the bench, it's a great deal.
I'm a well known Lebron hater, and I disagree. No longer top 10. Definitely not top 5. Top 5 players can lead their team to a playoff appearance.
He packs the stat book by going and getting his own. Best player on a bad team. Does not play defense anymore, the number of plays he completely takes off is impressive.
That's not saying he sucks. Still an amazing player, just finally starting to fall of in terms of his game.
If I were the Lakers, I'd try to trade him for Durant.
edit: Tried to put a list together, and I'm wrong. Lebron would come in somewhere around 8, 9 or 10. There are fewer elite players than my initial gut reaction. Still would trade him for Durant though.
-
Lebron 2022 stats:
30.3 points, 8.2 rebounds, 6.2 assists
-
Lebron 2022 stats:
30.3 points, 8.2 rebounds, 6.2 assists
And 2 years removed from a title.
His problem isn’t his play. It’s his GM’ing. But if the price of a title (he’s won one every city he’s played in) is your team might stink for a few years after he leaves for greener pastures, literally every franchise in the NBA would (and should) make that deal.
And I can’t stand him and think he’s a phony.
-
I'm a well known Lebron hater, and I disagree. No longer top 10. Definitely not top 5. Top 5 players can lead their team to a playoff appearance.
5th in VORP
4th in PER
5th in BPM
-
5th in VORP
4th in PER
5th in BPM
Embiid
Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Durant
You'd have to be nuts to select James above any of those 5, I also think it would be very hard to place Doncic after James.
-
Typical LeBron hater ::)
Those are two totally different scenarios. Doesn’t take a lebron hater to say that.
-
It will be entertaining to watch. Like when a few players on whatever team they’re both playing on get injured and the GM needs to decide what to do when they need an actual NBA player to contribute. Do they let Bronny suit up and tank team chemistry because they have a guy on their team who has no business playing or do they send him down a level to the G League? Does Lebron go down to the G league then too? Anything is possible !
-
It will be entertaining to watch. Like when a few players on whatever team they’re both playing on get injured and the GM needs to decide what to do when they need an actual NBA player to contribute. Do they let Bronny suit up and tank team chemistry because they have a guy on their team who has no business playing or do they send him down a level to the G League? Does Lebron go down to the G league then too? Anything is possible !
I think you’re overthinking this
-
I think you’re overthinking this
My hypothetical is an improbable situation?
-
My hypothetical is an improbable situation?
Not at all. NBA teams' fortunes often rest on their 15th player.
-
Lebron wood bea best served bye shuttin' up and just dribblin', hey?
-
Not at all. NBA teams' fortunes often rest on their 15th player.
It’ll be like when a competing team in baseball has a rule 5 player on their roster. You feel the pain a lot more than you’d initially anticipate. Anyone remember Wei Chung Wang with the Brewers.
-
Bruh ... he's still a top 10 NBA player. Arguably top 5. If the price of adding a player of his abilities - not to mention one who would sell tickets- is sticking his kid on the bench, it's a great deal.
Exactly. He went from one of the best 2 in the history of the game to a top 10 guy in the current league last year. So, declining. By the time Bronny suits up he decline some more. You’re also right that a) some GM will do it and b) some people will pay to see the circus. But I think the chance that Lebron can assemble a championship team around this charade are somewhere between remote and nil. We’ll see.
-
Exactly. He went from one of the best 2 in the history of the game to a top 10 guy in the current league last year. So, declining. By the time Bronny suits up he decline some more. You’re also right that a) some GM will do it and b) some people will pay to see the circus. But I think the chance that Lebron can assemble a championship team around this charade are somewhere between remote and nil. We’ll see.
Why is Lebron not sending his kid to college to get an education? It would be best for him.
-
'Cuz he's rich, aina?
-
Give me one other example in the nba of how a father makes that kind declaration about his and his sons future.
Is it that far off for a father to buy into a share of an NBA franchise to get his son a G-League spot?
-
It’ll be like when a competing team in baseball has a rule 5 player on their roster. You feel the pain a lot more than you’d initially anticipate. Anyone remember Wei Chung Wang with the Brewers.
Most MLB teams have a guy or two in the bullpen that only pitch in low leverage situations. I don’t think the Wei Chung Wang issue hurt them too much. Didn’t they put him on the DL with even the slightest injury?
If your 12th-15th guy is getting meaningful minutes in the NBA, you’re in a pretty rough spot anyways.
-
Is it that far off for a father to buy into a share of an NBA franchise to get his son a G-League spot?
Yes, an nba player demanding a roster spot for he and his son for one year is different than the last spot on a g league roster.
-
Most MLB teams have a guy or two in the bullpen that only pitch in low leverage situations. I don’t think the Wei Chung Wang issue hurt them too much. Didn’t they put him on the DL with even the slightest injury?
If your 12th-15th guy is getting meaningful minutes in the NBA, you’re in a pretty rough spot anyways.
He ended up hurting the brewers and was sent down as soon as the rule 5 restriction ended, with a very questionable DL stint before that.
How is lebron going to respond if the organization shelves his son for a mysterious injury?
-
Heal just by da fookin' teem, aina?
-
Yes, an nba player demanding a roster spot for he and his son for one year is different than the last spot on a g league roster.
It's leveraging your son into a pro position they shouldn't have and didn't earn. So basically, the history of all humanity ever. It's not like nepotism is a new phenomenon, and if some contender can spend a second round pick to stick Bronny at the end of their bench for a year of Lebron and a crack at a title in the process, isn't that a worthwhile deal?
-
Why is Lebron not sending his kid to college to get an education? It would be best for him.
Because then Lebron would have to give up some control of Bronny’s future. Of course that would be best for Bronny - hopefully Lebron comes to that realization.
-
Because then Lebron would have to give up some control of Bronny’s future. Of course that would be best for Bronny - hopefully Lebron comes to that realization.
You are assuming that they don’t see eye to eye on his future.
-
It's leveraging your son into a pro position they shouldn't have and didn't earn. So basically, the history of all humanity ever. It's not like nepotism is a new phenomenon, and if some contender can spend a second round pick to stick Bronny at the end of their bench for a year of Lebron and a crack at a title in the process, isn't that a worthwhile deal?
Of course. And the idea that this is going to be a problem in the locker room is hilarious. The end of the bench guys in the NBA are a dime a dozen.
-
Without knowing them personally, I have this weird feeling that LeBron has given his kids a decent future. Call me crazy…
-
You are assuming that they don’t see eye to eye on his future.
No, I’m assuming that no matter what the kid or his Daddy want the kid would be better off going his own way and getting out from under Daddy’s shadow.
-
No, I’m assuming that no matter what the kid or his Daddy want the kid would be better off going his own way and getting out from under Daddy’s shadow.
He’s going to have a long life. This won’t harm him regardless.
-
Without knowing them personally, I have this weird feeling that LeBron has given his kids a decent future. Call me crazy…
No doubt. He’s done far more for society than any of us
-
Embiid
Jokic
Giannis
Curry
Durant
You'd have to be nuts to select James above any of those 5, I also think it would be very hard to place Doncic after James.
Really?
Giannis and Curry are the only 2 that have led their team to a championship. Lebron makes three.
-
A job…..that he was no way no how qualified for.
But you’re right — Lebron isn’t the first Dad to be a jagoff and flex his muscles for an underserving son. But (like it always has) it still sucks.
The irony here is stunning.
-
It's leveraging your son into a pro position they shouldn't have and didn't earn. So basically, the history of all humanity ever. It's not like nepotism is a new phenomenon, and if some contender can spend a second round pick to stick Bronny at the end of their bench for a year of Lebron and a crack at a title in the process, isn't that a worthwhile deal?
using nepotism to acquire Nba roster spots is brand new.
Everyone is mentioning second round picks, dime a dozen last spot on the bench etc. I’m sure Lebron will handle the situation very well when his son gets treated like one of those dime a dozen last spots on the roster. Right ?
-
How about in the NFL when Archie Manning made it clear Eli wouldn’t play for the Chargers organization?
Players run the NBA 🤷🏼♂️
Eli was the undisputed the #1 pick. Bronny is a disputed NBA level player.
-
No, I’m assuming that no matter what the kid or his Daddy want the kid would be better off going his own way and getting out from under Daddy’s shadow.
He doesn’t have to work a day in his life (nor will his grandkids) and if he does it the qualification will be “LBJ’s son.” I’m sure he has no issues being in daddy’s shadow.
-
It’s really unfortunate the Bucks have Thenasis on the roster instead of being able to keep a guy like Mamadi Diakite. Certainly would’ve repeated if Mamadi was still on the roster.
This stuff is hilarious.
-
It’s really unfortunate the Bucks have Thenasis on the roster instead of being able to keep a guy like Mamadi Diakite. Certainly would’ve repeated if Mamadi was still on the roster.
This stuff is hilarious.
Thanasis is an nba, albeit end of the bench, level talent. Bronny is not.
-
Thanasis is an nba, albeit end of the bench, level talent. Bronny is not.
And having Bronny instead of Thenasis on the Bucks wouldn’t have changed a single thing either of the last 2 seasons.
-
This is the most scoop argument of the summer.
-
And having Bronny instead of Thenasis on the Bucks wouldn’t have changed a single thing either of the last 2 seasons.
Lebron is wired much differently than Giannis. I don’t think Lebron would handle his family member being slighted in the same way as Giannis would.
-
Lebron is wired much differently than Giannis. I don’t think Lebron would handle his family member being slighted in the same way as Giannis would.
Who cares?
-
Who cares?
I do. If you don’t care why are you responding ?
-
ND sucks
-
I do. If you don’t care why are you responding ?
Why do you care?
-
This is the most scoop argument of the summer.
You keep saying that. And then somebody says 'oh, yeah? Where is my phone? '
-
You keep saying that. And then somebody says 'oh, yeah? Where is my phone? '
This one is *chef’s kisses*
-
Thanasis is an nba, albeit end of the bench, level talent. Bronny is not.
Not yet, no. Maybe he never will be. Maybe after a year in the G League, he'll go from a top-40ish kid to someone who can earn a spot on an NBA roster. Marjon Beauchamp did it. And maybe he won't. Most likely, this isn't about Bronny. It's about Lebron deciding where he wants to play and dictating some of those terms. No different from what he's doing currently in Los Angeles. Or what he was doing in Cleveland on his second go-around. Both of those teams won titles with Lebron, despite his tendency to try to flex his role from player into GM. It wouldn't surprise me at all for someone else to give that a shot in a few years, and I wouldn't blame them because he's won championships at each of his past three stops.
-
Really?
Giannis and Curry are the only 2 that have led their team to a championship. Lebron makes three.
You're gonna take Lebron over the back to back reigning MVP and the guy that got the lions share of the other votes the last 2 years, both in their prime, because they haven't won a title? Lebron last lead his team to a proper NBA title over 5 years ago and lead his team to 7th and 11th place finishes in conference the last 2 seasons.
-
Why do you care?
I don’t like lebron and don’t like the ultimatum he put out.
-
Not yet, no. Maybe he never will be. Maybe after a year in the G League, he'll go from a top-40ish kid to someone who can earn a spot on an NBA roster. Marjon Beauchamp did it. And maybe he won't. Most likely, this isn't about Bronny. It's about Lebron deciding where he wants to play and dictating some of those terms. No different from what he's doing currently in Los Angeles. Or what he was doing in Cleveland on his second go-around. Both of those teams won titles with Lebron, despite his tendency to try to flex his role from player into GM. It wouldn't surprise me at all for someone else to give that a shot in a few years, and I wouldn't blame them because he's won championships at each of his past three stops.
Bubble championship doesn’t count. And asking to play with Anthony Davis or Westbrick is different than demanding a roster spot for a kid who should be a battling for a spot in the rotation at a high major school or a few minutes on a g league roster.
-
I don’t like lebron and don’t like the ultimatum he put out.
Have a grape soda
-
Have a grape soda
I’ll get you an orange crush On ice
-
Bubble championship doesn’t count.
Yes, actually, it does. It's recorded in the annals of NBA history and Lebron was the Finals MVP. There's literally no logical case to say it doesn't count. What a silly statement.
-
Lebron is wired much differently than Giannis. I don’t think Lebron would handle his family member being slighted in the same way as Giannis would.
Gianni’s also didn’t bail and form a super team after being unable to win a title with the team that drafted him.
-
Crean sucks
-
Gianni’s also didn’t bail and form a super team after being unable to win a title with the team that drafted him.
Oh no. An athlete went to a new team as a free agent?
-
using nepotism to acquire Nba roster spots is brand new.
Lol. Really?
Simple Google search..
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/352324/amp
-
Yes, actually, it does. It's recorded in the annals of NBA history and Lebron was the Finals MVP. There's literally no logical case to say it doesn't count. What a silly statement.
Do you celebrate summer league titles too?
-
Lol. Really?
Simple Google search..
https://www.thescore.com/nba/news/352324/amp
You should probably use a better example to support your side of the opinion than Chris smith and jr smith. How’d that turn out for the knicks?
-
You should probably use a better example to support your side of the opinion than Chris smith and jr smith. How’d that turn out for the knicks?
Ah we have decided to shift the goalposts now.
-
Ah we have decided to shift the goalposts now.
Ok so I did shift - but…. How did it work out for the knicks ? I’m sure there were no luxury tax issues and Jr smith was really happy with the organization and stayed with them for a really long time right ?
-
I saw Bronny play in Chicago back in February. Dude has a nice shot and passes well.
-
Ok so I did shift - but…. How did it work out for the knicks ? I’m sure there were no luxury tax issues and Jr smith was really happy with the organization and stayed with them for a really long time right ?
Whatever organization acquiesces to Lebron and Bronny will sell a lot more tickets than the Knicks
-
You're gonna take Lebron over the back to back reigning MVP and the guy that got the lions share of the other votes the last 2 years, both in their prime, because they haven't won a title? Lebron last lead his team to a proper NBA title over 5 years ago and lead his team to 7th and 11th place finishes in conference the last 2 seasons.
I didn't say LeBron was the better player now.
But when he was the Joker's age, any team he went to was automatically one of the favorites for the title. The same is not true for Jokic
-
Gianni’s also didn’t bail and form a super team after being unable to win a title with the team that drafted him.
Um.., he told the Bucks to get better players or he was gone. Exactly the same as LeBron.
-
Ok so I did shift - but…. How did it work out for the knicks ? I’m sure there were no luxury tax issues and Jr smith was really happy with the organization and stayed with them for a really long time right ?
It didn’t work. Just like nothing has worked for them in the last 20 years.
-
Do you celebrate summer league titles too?
No, but this is an NBA title. Arguing otherwise comes across as petty and juvenile. I don't think any NBA franchise would've turned down the title in the bubble.
-
I didn't say LeBron was the better player now.
But when he was the Joker's age, any team he went to was automatically one of the favorites for the title. The same is not true for Jokic
Forgetful said you'd be nuts to choose Lebron, now in 2022, over Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Giannis, or Durant. Then you cited leading their team to a title and called out Curry and Giannis doing it, as well as Lebron. Certainly seems as you're implying there is a solid argument for Lebron at age 38 over them cause he had titles.
We know how you feel about Durant, but there is no world where Lebron is remotely in discussion for current ability with Jokic and Embiid.
Also, for fun, at Jokic's age, Lebron had already went to Miami. And to be fair, in Jokic's 2 MVP seasons, the second superstar on his team missed the second half of the seasons/playoffs in the first year and the entire year in the second. And another top 4 player on the team missed most of this year as well. A healthy Nuggets team with Jokic, Murray, and MPJ would absolutely be a top 3-4 favorite for a title
-
No, but this is an NBA title. Arguing otherwise comes across as petty and juvenile. I don't think any NBA franchise would've turned down the title in the bubble.
Scoop would have been celebrating had the Bucks or JFB won the title. Saying it didn’t count is just silliness.
-
Gianni’s also didn’t bail and form a super team after being unable to win a title with the team that drafted him.
No, but he used the threat of free agency to force the team to makes moves to build a championship roster around him.
Moron Dan Gilbert wouldn't do that, so LeBron bailed.
Giannis is great and all, but anyone who thinks prime Giannis is in the neighborhood of prime LeBron is clueless.
-
Forgetful said you'd be nuts to choose Lebron, now in 2022, over Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Giannis, or Durant. Then you cited leading their team to a title and called out Curry and Giannis doing it, as well as Lebron. Certainly seems as you're implying there is a solid argument for Lebron at age 38 over them cause he had titles.
We know how you feel about Durant, but there is no world where Lebron is remotely in discussion for current ability with Jokic and Embiid.
Also, for fun, at Jokic's age, Lebron had already went to Miami. And to be fair, in Jokic's 2 MVP seasons, the second superstar on his team missed the second half of the seasons/playoffs in the first year and the entire year in the second. And another top 4 player on the team missed most of this year as well. A healthy Nuggets team with Jokic, Murray, and MPJ would absolutely be a top 3-4 favorite for a title
Do yourself a favor, Wags. Go check the roster LeBron carried to the finals in 2007.
Then let us know if Jokic could do that.
-
No, but he used the threat of free agency to force the team to makes moves to build a championship roster around him.
Moron Dan Gilbert wouldn't do that, so LeBron bailed.
Giannis is great and all, but anyone who thinks prime Giannis is in the neighborhood of prime LeBron is clueless.
Giannis is absolutely in the same neighborhood as prime LeBron.
-
No, but this is an NBA title. Arguing otherwise comes across as petty and juvenile. I don't think any NBA franchise would've turned down the title in the bubble.
Nothing says playoff basketball like no fans, no travel and no home court advantage.
-
Do yourself a favor, Wags. Go check the roster LeBron carried to the finals in 2007.
Then let us know if Jokic could do that.
What are we even arguing? I never said Lebron wasn't great or that 2007 was impressive? All my point was that arguing for Lebron, right now, as a top 5 player alongside Jokic/Embiid, even without their titles, is silly. Then Jockey had to take a dig at Jokic versus Lebron 10-12 years ago. So I pointed things out. Im not a fan, but I wasn't digging at Lebron at all.
But, you like advanced statistic, Jokic just put up a VORP that Lebron only eclipsed twice in his career. His BPM in 2022 was higher than any Lebron ever put up (and last year eclipsed all but 1 of Lebron' seasons), and his PER over the last two years is markedly higher than any 2 year stretch Lebron had in his career (including the highest single season PER in history this year). All in a substantially harder conference than the mid/late 2000s East.
Jokic obviously isn't in top 2 discussion of all time, and has miles to go in his career before he enters Lebron level discussions, but its not inconceivable that he would have been able to move mountains like Lebron in the East back then. 2007 was an insane singular effort, but they both have outsized impacts in the game and fill box scores in meaningful ways. Its just not apples to apples and its neither of their faults. The back to back MVPs in the modern era is pretty heady company and his MVP seasons have been tremendous.
-
Nothing says playoff basketball like no fans, no travel and no home court advantage.
I mean...we were in a pandemic. Everyone faced the same conditions.
-
Giannis is absolutely in the same neighborhood as prime LeBron.
Dude, no.
I'm not even a LBJ fan, but he's legitimately in the conversation for the GOAT (he's not, but there's a case to be made), and is widely considered top 3 of all time.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks that of Giannis. Great player, first ballot HOFer, etc., for sure. But he's not at that level.
-
I mean...we were in a pandemic. Everyone faced the same conditions.
Plus the Lakers were the 1 seed and would’ve had home court until the Finals, but then the Heat made the Finals so they would’ve had the higher seed for the Finals anyway.
So lack of crowd and home court hurt them more than anything.
-
Dude, no.
I'm not even a LBJ fan, but he's legitimately in the conversation for the GOAT (he's not, but there's a case to be made), and is widely considered top 3 of all time.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks that of Giannis. Great player, first ballot HOFer, etc., for sure. But he's not at that level.
You were talking about the players in their prime. Giannis is currently very much in the same neighborhood that LeBron was in his prime. The question is can Giannis get another couple rings and still be one of, if not the, best player for another decade? That’s why LBJ is in the GOAT conversation. If Giannis does do that, he’ll be in that conversation too.
-
I mean...we were in a pandemic. Everyone faced the same conditions.
And in the same conditions every other season, the lebron lakers have made the playoffs once as a seven seed and missed out the two other seasons. Just a near miss on a dynasty.
-
And in the same conditions every other season, the lebron lakers have made the playoffs once as a seven seed and missed out the two other seasons. Just a near miss on a dynasty.
And you’re shifting goalposts again…. 🙄🙄🙄
-
And you’re shifting goalposts again…. 🙄🙄🙄
I’m addressing your statement with a response showing how the bubble championship is not a fair reflection on actual professional basketball.
-
It didn’t work. Just like nothing has worked for them in the last 20 years.
Maybe it was because a team shouldn’t acquiesce to a players demands when it does nothing to help the organization.
-
I’m addressing your statement with a response showing how the bubble championship is not a fair reflection on actual professional basketball.
You really think the only reason that season ended differently was the bubble?
-
The irony here is stunning.
WTF? LOL
-
He’s going to have a long life. This won’t harm him regardless.
I sincerely hope that you’re right.
-
Dude, no.
I'm not even a LBJ fan, but he's legitimately in the conversation for the GOAT (he's not, but there's a case to be made), and is widely considered top 3 of all time.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks that of Giannis. Great player, first ballot HOFer, etc., for sure. But he's not at that level.
Not disagreeing with anything you said, but it is important to remember that LBJ is in that conversation because of his longevity.
Giannis has a lot of years left, his story is yet to be written.
-
Win shares though nine seasons. Both were 27 years old...
LBJ: 133.5
Giannis: 87.5
I love Giannis. LBJ's peak is way better.
-
Win shares though nine seasons. Both were 27 years old...
LBJ: 133.5
Giannis: 87.5
I love Giannis. LBJ's peak is way better.
MJ: 147.6...despite a 1.5 his second year when he was injured.
-
I’m addressing your statement with a response showing how the bubble championship is not a fair reflection on actual professional basketball.
So when does the moment come that you realize the completely inane and juvenile hill you chose to die on is really a deep, deep valley. ?-(
Clearly the topic is no longer about Bronny and instead about Lebron. Was there this much debate over whether or not Michael was the GOAT when the Bulls were in their second title run? I know plenty of people disliked Michael, but I don't feel like his greatness itself was polarizing. I think I'll always be Team MJ over Team Lebron, but comparing the flavor of the day to Lebron (and I'm also a big Giannis fan, but come on), questioning if the guy is still a great player (terrible GM, but clearly still one of the best in the world), or debating his place in history (I'd say #2 at worst) seems like really stretching to discredit someone for...I'm not sure what.
So for the older hats who might've seen Michael's legacy in the moment more clearly than teenage me did, was he scrutinized as much and as polarizing as Lebron? Were the Magic defenders (or whomever) as staunchly anti-Michael as the anti-Lebron crowd is now?
As a sports fan, if it isn't my team winning, my favorite thing to celebrate is greatness. That's why I'll pull for the Messi World Cup, for Gonzaga to complete the undefeated season, or for someone like Lebron to be Lebron. If I can't have the title myself, give me the history that makes for the best story in 20 or 30 years.
-
You really think the only reason that season ended differently was the bubble?
Given how the lakers performed in actual real life nba circumstances, yes I do think there would be a different outcome.
-
So when does the moment come that you realize the completely inane and juvenile hill you chose to die on is really a deep, deep valley. ?-(
Clearly the topic is no longer about Bronny and instead about Lebron. Was there this much debate over whether or not Michael was the GOAT when the Bulls were in their second title run? I know plenty of people disliked Michael, but I don't feel like his greatness itself was polarizing. I think I'll always be Team MJ over Team Lebron, but comparing the flavor of the day to Lebron (and I'm also a big Giannis fan, but come on), questioning if the guy is still a great player (terrible GM, but clearly still one of the best in the world), or debating his place in history (I'd say #2 at worst) seems like really stretching to discredit someone for...I'm not sure what.
So for the older hats who might've seen Michael's legacy in the moment more clearly than teenage me did, was he scrutinized as much and as polarizing as Lebron? Were the Magic defenders (or whomever) as staunchly anti-Michael as the anti-Lebron crowd is now?
As a sports fan, if it isn't my team winning, my favorite thing to celebrate is greatness. That's why I'll pull for the Messi World Cup, for Gonzaga to complete the undefeated season, or for someone like Lebron to be Lebron. If I can't have the title myself, give me the history that makes for the best story in 20 or 30 years.
So as a sports fan, it shouldn’t be too difficult to see the differences in pressure and circumstance between playing in an empty gym and in front of 20,000 people on the road right?
-
So as a sports fan, it shouldn’t be too difficult to see the differences in pressure and circumstance between playing in an empty gym and in front of 20,000 people on the road right?
I’m sure Lakers fans and members of the organization are devastated some fans don’t think their title is real.
-
Given how the lakers performed in actual real life nba circumstances, yes I do think there would be a different outcome.
The real life circumstances were also wildly different. The next year's team had far less Anthony Davis and added empty calories Andre Drummond. It also had far too much Dennis Schroder. As others have mentioned, the Lakers were the 1-seed and because of that, the loss of home court advantage was a disadvantage for them more than any other team.
So as a sports fan, it shouldn’t be too difficult to see the differences in pressure and circumstance between playing in an empty gym and in front of 20,000 people on the road right?
Who gives a s**t if it's different? The Los Angeles Lakers are universally recognized as the 2020 NBA Champions and Lebron James is universally recognized as that Finals MVP. Did Baylor's title not count? Did the Golden Eagles TBT title not count? Did the 2021 Olympics not count? The answer to all of those is obviously no and it is beyond ridiculous to make a case otherwise.
-
I’m sure Lakers fans and members of the organization are devastated some fans don’t think their title is real.
They can take solace in their otherwise very successful finishes the last ten years ?-(
-
It's widely known that the NBA will expand by two more teams soon, in Vegas and Seattle. LeBron will be a part of one of the ownership groups through his relationship with FSG (own the Red Sox and Liverpool FC). For what it's worth, I've seen scouts say Bronny has been a lot better this summer. Nowhere near the top of his class, but has really improved.
-
Win shares though nine seasons. Both were 27 years old...
LBJ: 133.5
Giannis: 87.5
I love Giannis. LBJ's peak is way better.
Again, we’re talking prime, not career or career through certain years. LBJ came in as a top 15 player in the NBA. Giannis came in as not even a top 8 player on a bad Bucks team.
-
So when does the moment come that you realize the completely inane and juvenile hill you chose to die on is really a deep, deep valley. ?-(
Clearly the topic is no longer about Bronny and instead about Lebron. Was there this much debate over whether or not Michael was the GOAT when the Bulls were in their second title run? I know plenty of people disliked Michael, but I don't feel like his greatness itself was polarizing. I think I'll always be Team MJ over Team Lebron, but comparing the flavor of the day to Lebron (and I'm also a big Giannis fan, but come on), questioning if the guy is still a great player (terrible GM, but clearly still one of the best in the world), or debating his place in history (I'd say #2 at worst) seems like really stretching to discredit someone for...I'm not sure what.
So for the older hats who might've seen Michael's legacy in the moment more clearly than teenage me did, was he scrutinized as much and as polarizing as Lebron? Were the Magic defenders (or whomever) as staunchly anti-Michael as the anti-Lebron crowd is now?
As a sports fan, if it isn't my team winning, my favorite thing to celebrate is greatness. That's why I'll pull for the Messi World Cup, for Gonzaga to complete the undefeated season, or for someone like Lebron to be Lebron. If I can't have the title myself, give me the history that makes for the best story in 20 or 30 years.
Jordan was pretty much universally beloved. First, I don't think there was much debate that he was the best of all time once the championships started coming. Second, you really didn't have "sports debate" type shows where people would like absurdist positions for the sake of driving the conversation and ratings. Most sports talk shows of that era would be considered quaint if you listened to them now - I mean, I used to like Homer's show back in the day! And finally you didn't have social media undermining every good story with the negative, dark sides. Of course those always existed and you heard SOME things about them, but MJ's image was very well crafted. Gatorade, Nike, Haines...the guy came across as pretty likeable even though in retrospect he really wasn't.
-
The real life circumstances were also wildly different. The next year's team had far less Anthony Davis and added empty calories Andre Drummond. It also had far too much Dennis Schroder. As others have mentioned, the Lakers were the 1-seed and because of that, the loss of home court advantage was a disadvantage for them more than any other team.
Who gives a s**t if it's different? The Los Angeles Lakers are universally recognized as the 2020 NBA Champions and Lebron James is universally recognized as that Finals MVP. Did Baylor's title not count? Did the Golden Eagles TBT title not count? Did the 2021 Olympics not count? The answer to all of those is obviously no and it is beyond ridiculous to make a case otherwise.
Well we all saw firsthand how well lebron has handled the rigors of a real playoff series as a Laker….
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e38I-W6AkcE
-
LBJ is in the GOAT discussion. That is honor enough. Can you imagine social media's reaction to the Jordan gambling rumors back in the day? But I digress. LBJ has earned a lot of leeway. If he chooses to use it to play along side his son, it impacts none of us in the slightest. I think it is heartwarming. He can see the end of his career and is feeling sentimental.
Recently, we had two deputy chiefs retire. Both had sons on the department. Both decided to dust off their gear and come out on the machines for a day to ride along with their sons. Both called it their most gratifying day on the department.
-
Jordan was vilified big-time for his first 5-6 years in the league. A selfish loser who didn’t do enough to help his team win titles. He was no Larry Bird.
I think it was mostly a racial thing but all those critics were soon shut down.
-
You were talking about the players in their prime. Giannis is currently very much in the same neighborhood that LeBron was in his prime. The question is can Giannis get another couple rings and still be one of, if not the, best player for another decade? That’s why LBJ is in the GOAT conversation. If Giannis does do that, he’ll be in that conversation too.
This just isn't true. There's just nothing to support the idea that Giannis at his peak is at the same level as LeBron's peak.
Win Shares
LeBron's three best seasons: 20.3, 19.3, 18.5
Giannis' three best seasons: 14.4, 12.9, 12.4
LeBron has had 8 seasons with a win share better than Giannis' career best.
Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
LeBron's three best: 11.8, 10.3, 9.9
Giannis' three best: 7.4, 7.4. 6.7
LeBron has had 12 seasons with a VORP higher than Giannis' career best.
Box Plus Minus
LeBron's three best: 13.2, 11.8, 11.7
Giannis' three best: 11.5, 11.2, 10.4
-
He had to learn how to use his teammates. It was a normal progression. I was/am a Piston's fan and back then I loathed Jordan. But I never thought he sucked. I always felt it was just a matter of time. And, once the Pistons got a little past their prime and Jordan got a supporting cast he trusted, it became his time.
-
This just isn't true. There's just nothing to support the idea that Giannis at his peak is at the same level as LeBron's peak.
Win Shares
LeBron's three best seasons: 20.3, 19.3, 18.5
Giannis' three best seasons: 14.4, 12.9, 12.4
LeBron has had 8 seasons with a win share better than Giannis' career best.
Value Over Replacement Player (VORP)
LeBron's three best: 11.8, 10.3, 9.9
Giannis' three best: 7.4, 7.4. 6.7
LeBron has had 12 seasons with a VORP higher than Giannis' career best.
Box Plus Minus
LeBron's three best: 13.2, 11.8, 11.7
Giannis' three best: 11.5, 11.2, 10.4
These are three of my least favorite stats. Win shares is garbage, and VORP is directly calculated from BPM, which is deeply flawed in terms of assessing defense.
Not to mention, BPM was adjusted based on bias. Russell Westbrook's 2017 season where he averaged a triple double with 31.6 ppg was calculated as the best season ever by BPM. So they redesigned the algorithm to make sure that Lebron and Jordan still dominated the top.
Russell Westbrooks 2017 season, was arguably the best season all time. If stats people adjust their calculations to undo a result that they aren't happy with because Lebron and Jordan aren't on top anymore, it becomes a fairly useless stat.
A lot of these types of stats are examples of confirmational bias, where they have already deemed what are the "best seasons" or players ever, and adjust statistical weights to make sure that is true.
Simultaneously, they do not identify biases that favor players they had already deemed as the best. A lot of these metrics were designed during the Lebron era, and largely are designed to confirm that Lebron was the best current player.
-
How good are those guys at writing letters?
-
Simultaneously, they do not identify biases that favor players they had already deemed as the best. A lot of these metrics were designed during the Lebron era, and largely are designed to confirm that Lebron was the best current player.
That's just horsesh*t.
-
That's just horsesh*t.
Yes.
-
These are three of my least favorite stats. Win shares is garbage, and VORP is directly calculated from BPM, which is deeply flawed in terms of assessing defense.
How about RAPM? Even though it only goes back to 2009-10, missing some of LeBron's best seasons:
LeBron: 6.29, 5.39, 4.68
Giannis: 4.72, 3.22. 2.42
What are three of your favorites, and how do they show peak Giannis = peak LeBron?
-
How about RAPM? Even though it only goes back to 2009-10, missing some of LeBron's best seasons:
LeBron: 6.29, 5.39, 4.68
Giannis: 4.72, 3.22. 2.42
What are three of your favorites, and how do they show peak Giannis = peak LeBron?
To be fair, I think there is a design flaw in most sports statistics. They have to be benchmarked somehow, and they are usually benchmarked by preconceived notions on what the results in terms of player performances should look like.
Also, I don't believe I ever said peak Giannis = peak Lebron, or anything of that sort. I simply said that much of Lebron's stance as one of the best ever is in part due to longevity. Which is true.
-
That's just horsesh*t.
Since we have had accurate enough box scores to track things like VORP, a PG has only led the league in that category 3 times. Russell Westbrook (2016-17: Where they redesigned how BPM was calculated because him having the best season ever had to be an outlier that meant the system was wrong). Curry in 2015-15 (which was arguably one of the top 5 seasons by an individual player all time, but barely makes the top 20). Magic in 81-82.
Is that because PGs just aren't as good? Or is it a flaw in the statistics?
If I were to design a statistic that said Lebron was not the best player in the NBA during most of the 2000s, would it have value? No...why?...because it is a preconceived belief that Lebron was the best, and any statistic that shows otherwise would be devalued.
The fact is, many of these statistics overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's, because Jordan and Lebron, and Kareem were the dominant players over the eras they have reliable data.
You are free to have a difference in opinion, but your opinion is largely rooted in "it confirms what I believe to be true, so it is true," whereas, I acknowledge that the statistics do confirm what is objectively true, because they are benchmarked to do so, but that process introduces inherant flaws/biases, which bears out in cases like Curry and Westbrook.
-
Since we have had accurate enough box scores to track things like VORP, a PG has only led the league in that category 3 times. Russell Westbrook (2016-17: Where they redesigned how BPM was calculated because him having the best season ever had to be an outlier that meant the system was wrong). Curry in 2015-15 (which was arguably one of the top 5 seasons by an individual player all time, but barely makes the top 20). Magic in 81-82.
Is that because PGs just aren't as good? Or is it a flaw in the statistics?
If I were to design a statistic that said Lebron was not the best player in the NBA during most of the 2000s, would it have value? No...why?...because it is a preconceived belief that Lebron was the best, and any statistic that shows otherwise would be devalued.
The fact is, many of these statistics overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's, because Jordan and Lebron, and Kareem were the dominant players over the eras they have reliable data.
You are free to have a difference in opinion, but your opinion is largely rooted in "it confirms what I believe to be true, so it is true," whereas, I acknowledge that the statistics do confirm what is objectively true, because they are benchmarked to do so, but that process introduces inherant flaws/biases, which bears out in cases like Curry and Westbrook.
More horsesh*t.
-
To be fair, I think there is a design flaw in most sports statistics. They have to be benchmarked somehow, and they are usually benchmarked by preconceived notions on what the results in terms of player performances should look like.
I agree. The stats always make it look like the great players are better than the average players.
-
Since we have had accurate enough box scores to track things like VORP, a PG has only led the league in that category 3 times. Russell Westbrook (2016-17: Where they redesigned how BPM was calculated because him having the best season ever had to be an outlier that meant the system was wrong). Curry in 2015-15 (which was arguably one of the top 5 seasons by an individual player all time, but barely makes the top 20). Magic in 81-82.
Is that because PGs just aren't as good? Or is it a flaw in the statistics?
If I were to design a statistic that said Lebron was not the best player in the NBA during most of the 2000s, would it have value? No...why?...because it is a preconceived belief that Lebron was the best, and any statistic that shows otherwise would be devalued.
The fact is, many of these statistics overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's, because Jordan and Lebron, and Kareem were the dominant players over the eras they have reliable data.
You are free to have a difference in opinion, but your opinion is largely rooted in "it confirms what I believe to be true, so it is true," whereas, I acknowledge that the statistics do confirm what is objectively true, because they are benchmarked to do so, but that process introduces inherant flaws/biases, which bears out in cases like Curry and Westbrook.
Kareem was a ball dominant 4?
Anyhow, you're treading into Alex Jones territory here.
The reason Westbrook and Curry haven't led the league in VORP more often is not because of some bias, it's because they haven't been the best players in the league.
But again, if all these well-established metrics are bad, how do you objectively judge a player's value relative to other players? It feels like you've waded into the debate to take potshots, but haven't actually staked out what you think and why,
-
Kareem was a ball dominant 4?
Anyhow, you're treading into Alex Jones territory here.
The reason Westbrook and Curry haven't led the league in VORP more often is not because of some bias, it's because they haven't been the best players in the league.
But again, if all these well-established metrics are bad, how do you objectively judge a player's value relative to other players? It feels like you've waded into the debate to take potshots, but haven't actually staked out what you think and why,
The bolded is garbage. Not sure what you possibly believe is a conspiracy theory (the development of BPM 2.0 was a result on Westbrooks year...that is well known; and the methodology in terms of benchmarking these stats is also well known).
On the italics, I actually did. I said that most of these sports based statistics have flaws, and are pointless in debates of "best player ever" or "best season ever".
Their value is in being able to compare players of similar positions, and combined with recognizing the inherent flaws in each of these statistics can allow moderate predictive power in regards to performance.
My criticism of the statistics was in people using them as a be all end all aspect of a debate on player qualities. Frankly, such a stance is naive at best.
I agree. The stats always make it look like the great players are better than the average players.
This is true, and that is their value. They have limited value at all in separating great players from other great players. Or in comparing one great season to another great season. That is what was being discussed here, and where people have been misusing them.
-
How good are those guys at writing letters?
They excel using both cursive and block letters, so they're really good. But still, there are several Marquette sophomores playing pick-up games at Helfaer who are way better, both at basketball and letter-writing.
-
The bolded is garbage. Not sure what you possibly believe is a conspiracy theory (the development of BPM 2.0 was a result on Westbrooks year...that is well known; and the methodology in terms of benchmarking these stats is also well known).
Here's your conspiracy:
If I were to design a statistic that said Lebron was not the best player in the NBA during most of the 2000s, would it have value? No...why?...because it is a preconceived belief that Lebron was the best, and any statistic that shows otherwise would be devalued.
The fact is, many of these statistics overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's, because Jordan and Lebron, and Kareem were the dominant players over the eras they have reliable data.
And yes, I agree, that these stats aren't the be all, end all in discussing player value. But they're certainly better than the eye test, and lend some aspect of objectivity to an otherwise entirely subjective discussion.
I'll ask a third time ...how do you value players relative to their peers.
-
This is true, and that is their value. They have limited value at all in separating great players from other great players. Or in comparing one great season to another great season. That is what was being discussed here, and where people have been misusing them.
My post was obvious sarcasm. Your arguments have been way off base.
You pretend there are no coaches in the league and that players are ball dominant because they are ball hogs. That is just silly. Durant gets the ball because he is the best player on the team. MJ got the ball because he was the best. LeBron and Giannis get the ball because they are the best. That is as plain as day to even novice basketball fans.
Their play is what makes them great. It determines how often they get the ball. The stats don't make the player great - but they do reflect and prove that greatness.
And as Pakuni said, Kareem was not a 4. Never played a day of it in his life. He was not ball dominant either. He had to depend on others to get him the ball in shooting position.
-
My post was obvious sarcasm. Your arguments have been way off base.
You pretend there are no coaches in the league and that players are ball dominant because they are ball hogs. That is just silly. Durant gets the ball because he is the best player on the team. MJ got the ball because he was the best. LeBron and Giannis get the ball because they are the best. That is as plain as day to even novice basketball fans.
Their play is what makes them great. It determines how often they get the ball. The stats don't make the player great - but they do reflect and prove that greatness.
And as Pakuni said, Kareem was not a 4. Never played a day of it in his life. He was not ball dominant either. He had to depend on others to get him the ball in shooting position.
I've said absolutely zero of the bolded.
We agree on most of the italics. Where we may disagree is on using them as definitives to prove which player/season was best. Comparing different eras/even seasons, is a pointless argument.
And I was wrong to include Kareem. I was largely listing the best from each era since sufficient box score stats were available. Faux pas on my end.
And remember, all of this stems from me simply saying that Giannis has a lot of years left to prove where he will rank all time, and then Sultan and Pakuni trotting out stats that have nothing to do with what Giannis will do the rest of his career.
Not disagreeing with anything you said, but it is important to remember that LBJ is in that conversation because of his longevity.
Giannis has a lot of years left, his story is yet to be written.
-
Here's your conspiracy:
If I were to design a statistic that said Lebron was not the best player in the NBA during most of the 2000s, would it have value? No...why?...because it is a preconceived belief that Lebron was the best, and any statistic that shows otherwise would be devalued.
The fact is, many of these statistics overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's, because Jordan and Lebron, and Kareem were the dominant players over the eras they have reliable data.
And yes, I agree, that these stats aren't the be all, end all in discussing player value. But they're certainly better than the eye test, and lend some aspect of objectivity to an otherwise entirely subjective discussion.
I'll ask a third time ...how do you value players relative to their peers.
I don't see any conspiracy theory there at all. BPM and VORP and win shares that derive from it do indeed overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's. It is in it's very design where:
A PG gets 0.58 per assist, a SF gets 0.807, and a C gets 1.034; and for DRBs a PG gets 0.116, a SF gets 0.149, and a C gets 0.181. Since the bulk of stats come from these metrics it benefits ball dominant 2's, 3's and 4's.
On top of that, there are overall positional adjustments where being a 1 gets you a -0.818 deduction (no other positions get a deduction, and also an offensive adjustment offset of -2.774 (3's, 4's and 5's get no adjustment).
This is all because of some belief that PGs do not provide any value that isn't directly captured in a box score, whereas bigs do. Note that is the official justification.
So simply being a 3, can gain you 4 points easily in BPM, due to nothing other than position. (I'm overly simplifying this a bit, as the calculations on position are more nuanced), but the inherent positional bias holds through in the actual data.
None of that takes into consideration the bias on the defensive side, where elite defenders like Jrue Holiday have a career average DBPM of 0.1 (VORP and BPM are horrible at capturing defense). This is because of how they discount assists, 3 point shots, and rebounds for guards, but not bigs which amplifies defensive contributions for bigs.
I apologize if my cavalier statements prior to this did not go into details and created confusion. Loose language is my fault, but the sentiment is justified in how BPM and its derivatives (VORP) are designed.
-------
Now, how do I evaluate players relative to their peers. It is a combination of statistics (but knowing their inherent flaws in terms of design and bias), and watching games. Then there are also the intangibles, like how does a player elevate their teammates and make the entire team better (e.g. players like Stockton, Paul, and others that control the game).
Most importantly I prefer not too worry too much about comparing players between eras and seasons, it is an exercise in opinions.
-
You have lots of good takes on lots of subjects, forgetful, but your admitted hatred for all things LeBron colors your thoughts when it comes to this topic.
-
I don't see any conspiracy theory there at all. BPM and VORP and win shares that derive from it do indeed overvalue contributions by ball dominant 2's, 3's, and 4's. It is in it's very design where:
........
I'll definitely agree that Stats aren't everything. But they do very well at telling us what has happened, and, yes, even comparing players across eras.
My main issue with stats is that they are given too much credit for being predictive. They give a good overall picture, but they are not definitive about what is going to happen. MJ was pretty much the best player on the floor every game he played in the NBA - even before he started winning championships. He knew it, the other players knew it, and the fans knew it. If anyone needed any stat - standard or advanced - to figure that out, they were clueless.
-
Back to Bronny ...
@On3Recruits: According to a report from ESPN's @PaulBiancardi, Bronny James is being recruited by Michigan, Ohio State, Oregon, UCLA, and USC🏀
https://www.on3.com/news/bronny-james-ucla-michigan-ohio-state-usc-oregon-reportedly-recruiting-lebrons-son/
-
Back to Bronny ...
@On3Recruits: According to a report from ESPN's @PaulBiancardi, Bronny James is being recruited by Michigan, Ohio State, Oregon, UCLA, and USC🏀
https://www.on3.com/news/bronny-james-ucla-michigan-ohio-state-usc-oregon-reportedly-recruiting-lebrons-son/
USC makes A LOT of sense.
-
Back to Bronny ...
@On3Recruits: According to a report from ESPN's @PaulBiancardi, Bronny James is being recruited by Michigan, Ohio State, Oregon, UCLA, and USC🏀
https://www.on3.com/news/bronny-james-ucla-michigan-ohio-state-usc-oregon-reportedly-recruiting-lebrons-son/
Since its not that important, I'm not going to go back and verify this, but when I started the thread some of these schools were listed as 'recruiting' him, just no offers. Seemed strange that a player that 'highly' rated did not have any decent offers by now. I'd be interested to see if any have now offered.
I think the idea that he has no interest in college makes a lot of sense and teams don't want to expend energy on recruiting or offering him. Honestly the idea of MU offering a 40-50ish raked player who thinks he is a one-and-done is not very appealing.
If I were Bronny, I'd leverage my dad's status and get on an NBA team. See how long it lasts and move onto running the family business. I personally have zero problem with LeBron forcing a team into signing Bronny. That kind of privilege has existed since the dawn of time and will always exist.
-
Back to Bronny ...
@On3Recruits: According to a report from ESPN's @PaulBiancardi, Bronny James is being recruited by Michigan, Ohio State, Oregon, UCLA, and USC🏀
https://www.on3.com/news/bronny-james-ucla-michigan-ohio-state-usc-oregon-reportedly-recruiting-lebrons-son/
So for sure he'll be in the Big 10
-
Is it that far off for a father to buy into a share of an NBA franchise to get his son a G-League spot?
DWades situation is akin to Chuck giving Jimmy a spot in the mailroom. (Yes, I am finally watching BCS)
-
Back to Bronny ...
@On3Recruits: According to a report from ESPN's @PaulBiancardi, Bronny James is being recruited by Michigan, Ohio State, Oregon, UCLA, and USC🏀
https://www.on3.com/news/bronny-james-ucla-michigan-ohio-state-usc-oregon-reportedly-recruiting-lebrons-son/
I'm going to guess that list came from the James camp. Especially as it's been reported that some schools considered to be "recruiting" Bronny James have said off the record they are not actually recruiting Bronny James.
The best part of the article, though, was this: "According to the On3 Recruiting Prediction Machine, it is currently a close race between North Carolina A&T and North Carolina Central to land James’ commitment. North Carolina A&T’s odds are at 53.3%, while North Carolina Central’s chance is at 46.7%."
-
The Athletic with an interesting update on the recruitment of LeBron's kid:
https://theathletic.com/3740911/2022/10/31/bronny-james-recruitment-lebron-james/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=5394418
The gist:
The Athletic spoke to eight college coaches from major conference schools who have evaluated Bronny and also two NBA scouts who have seen him play. They were granted anonymity because they are not permitted to speak about high school prospects under NCAA and NBA guidelines. They praised Bronny’s mental makeup and understanding of the game. They respected how his parents are handling his recruitment. But the college coaches, to a person, also bring up a caveat.
While Bronny is talented, he is not so talented that the expectations and the circus that will accompany him to any college campus are warranted. He is not a force like Zion or a unicorn like Chet Holmgren. He’s not DJ Wagner, the top-rated player in Bronny’s graduating class, or even Amari Bailey, his former Sierra Canyon teammate and five-star recruit who is now at UCLA. Not even close. And so, in whispers, some coaches are wondering if Bronny, the player, is worth Bronny, the circus.
“The expectation doesn’t match the talent level, or at least not yet,’’ one coach says. “And that’s where it gets messy.’’
And this:
Bronny is good. That needs to be said upfront. No one praising his play to The Athletic seems to be kissing the King’s ring or paying lip service. His consensus class rank is 45; 247 Sports lists him 41st, while ESPN slates him at 34. He is good enough to play at the schools that are on his current list of suitors: Oregon, UCLA, USC, Michigan, Kentucky, Ohio State and Memphis.
Coaches and scouts who have actually evaluated — and not simply gawked at — his game like his athleticism and how he gets downhill; they say he’s got a good enough shot that he could play either point guard or shooting guard in college. To a man, they cite his high basketball IQ as a strength. “Plays the game the right way’’ comes up more than once when evaluators are asked about him. He makes the right passes, the right reads and happily plays in the context of the game. For a basketball scion, he is an exceptionally good teammate.
They see areas where he could improve. He can be a little too unselfish. Some coaches want him to be more aggressive and separate himself from the crowd. They say he helped himself this summer by showing glimpses of an alpha mentality; in a game earlier this month in Las Vegas he dropped 31 points.
The evaluators also believe he’s been hurt a bit by his famous surname, that no matter what Bronny does, people often want more. “Every time people saw him they expected him to get 35 points because he’s LeBron’s kid,” says one college coach. “You have to like him for who he is. He’s a spot-up point guard who makes his team better.’’ ...
Bronny, the evaluators say, is a good ballhandler and good shooter, but not great yet at either. Everyone knew Jalen Suggs would get the ball as soon as he walked onto the Gonzaga campus; ditto Derrick Rose at Memphis and Lonzo Ball at UCLA. Bronny is not them. He might start, one coach opines, on a team in the bottom of a power league but not at a top 25 program. Bronny wouldn’t, the coach adds, start for him. ...
Bronny is, in essence, a four-star player with a five-star name. “If it were a no-brainer, he’d be (signed by) Duke right now. It would be done,’’ one coach says. “Or Kentucky. There’s a reason he’s not.’’
-
The Athletic with an interesting update on the recruitment of LeBron's kid:
Thanks for posting...interesting stuff.
-
So essentially he’s a dime a dozen prospect, who no one would know nor care about were it not for his father.
-
So essentially he’s a dime a dozen prospect, who no one would know nor care about were it not for his father.
If his name were John Smith, Marquette fans would be thrilled to land him.
-
So essentially he’s a dime a dozen prospect, who no one would know nor care about were it not for his father.
Yes. Like Kam Jones, Sean Jones, Chase Ross, OMax, Ben Gold, Tyler Kolek, etc. etc.
Only better.
-
So essentially he’s a dime a dozen prospect, who no one would know nor care about were it not for his father.
Wrong
-
247 has Bronny as a top-50 recruit.
So maybe Hutch thinks that’s a-dime-a-4-dozen.
-
I guess the question is, is he a top 50 recruit if his name isn’t Bronny James?
-
Yes.
-
I guess the question is, is he a top 50 recruit if his name isn’t Bronny James?
The answer is:
I don’t know. And neither do you. I doubt any Scooper does.
-
The answer is:
I don’t know. And neither do you. I doubt any Scooper does.
A lot of coaches and recruiters think so - even if they aren’t recruiting him to avoid the circus that will come with it.
On the other hand, it has always been an assumption here on Scoop that there is not a whole lot of difference between #40 and #140.
So, I guess your answer is about as accurate as we’re gonna get.
-
The answer is:
I don’t know. And neither do you. I doubt any Scooper does.
This.
Don’t like Lebron? I guess you can make the case that scouts and coaches overrate his son because of who his Dad is. But maybe the opposite is true. Or maybe (most likely) it plays no part in his ranking.
But I’m pretty sure nobody here knows.
-
it would fun to see him in college but feels like the vibe is leaning towards him going on a diffrent path
-
Bronny James, the son of LeBron James, was rushed to the hospital after having a medical emergency during a basketball workout at USC's Galen Center on Monday. The 18-year-old suffered a cardiac arrest, according to a report from TMZ.
The incident occurred Monday morning, with a 911 call reportedly being made around 9:30 a.m. PT. Bronny James was reportedly unconscious upon ambulance arrival, per TMZ, but is now in stable condition and no longer in the ICU, according to a statement issued to The Athletic's Shams Charania.
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-uscs-bronny-james-stable-out-of-icu-after-cardiac-arrest-during-workout-143536860.html
-
Bronny James, the son of LeBron James, was rushed to the hospital after having a medical emergency during a basketball workout at USC's Galen Center on Monday. The 18-year-old suffered a cardiac arrest, according to a report from TMZ.
The incident occurred Monday morning, with a 911 call reportedly being made around 9:30 a.m. PT. Bronny James was reportedly unconscious upon ambulance arrival, per TMZ, but is now in stable condition and no longer in the ICU, according to a statement issued to The Athletic's Shams Charania.
https://sports.yahoo.com/report-uscs-bronny-james-stable-out-of-icu-after-cardiac-arrest-during-workout-143536860.html
Terribly unfortunate and sad news. Glad he is in stable condition.
-
Vaccine?
-
Pretty scary stuff.
-
Vaccine?
Perfect.
-
Hank Gathers.
Zeke Upshaw.
Reggie Lewis.
Thankful they had competent medical staff on site.
-
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/vincent-iwuchukwu-bronny-james-usc-cardiac-arrest/wuss2s4y3vtpccs2cyhntki7
USC freshman Vince Iwuchukwu reveals he was hospitalized after cardiac arrest during workout… from last year 🤷🏻
There’s something in the water at USC… 2 for 2 over the last couple of years. These kids’ fitness is some of the most monitored in sports. To have some sort of baseline ekg/stress testing prior to beginning workouts that is regularly compared throughout the season shouldn’t be too hard to implement… It likely is in some places.
Reminds me of the CTE situation in the NFL.
Get better, Bronny!
-
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/vincent-iwuchukwu-bronny-james-usc-cardiac-arrest/wuss2s4y3vtpccs2cyhntki7
USC freshman Vince Iwuchukwu reveals he was hospitalized after cardiac arrest during workout… from last year 🤷🏻
There’s something in the water at USC… 2 for 2 over the last couple of years. These kids’ fitness is some of the most monitored in sports. To have some sort of baseline ekg/stress testing prior to beginning workouts that is regularly compared throughout the season shouldn’t be too hard to implement… It likely is in some places.
Reminds me if the CTE situation in the NFL.
Get better, Bronny!
It really could just be a coincidence.
-
Vaccine?
I've read that people are dropping dead left and right because of the jab. Well mostly right.
-
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/vincent-iwuchukwu-bronny-james-usc-cardiac-arrest/wuss2s4y3vtpccs2cyhntki7
USC freshman Vince Iwuchukwu reveals he was hospitalized after cardiac arrest during workout… from last year 🤷🏻
There’s something in the water at USC… 2 for 2 over the last couple of years. These kids’ fitness is some of the most monitored in sports. To have some sort of baseline ekg/stress testing prior to beginning workouts that is regularly compared throughout the season shouldn’t be too hard to implement… It likely is in some places.
Reminds me of the CTE situation in the NFL.
Get better, Bronny!
Maybe an mRNA vaccine???
It is worse than horse dewormer.
-
Maybe an mRNA vaccine???
It is worse than horse dewormer.
(https://media.tenor.com/TbNS9-RYKoUAAAAC/octopus-trollers-gonna-troll.gif)
-
Small study points to possible cause of myocarditis following mRNA vaccination in young men
Researchers observed elevated levels of immune molecules that, in rare cases, could trigger inflammation in the heart.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/myocarditis-covid-vaccination-immune-inflammation-rcna82681
An overactive immune response to the mRNA Covid vaccines may be the culprit in rare cases of heart inflammation seen in some young men after they receive the shot, a small study published Friday in the journal Science Immunology suggests.
The study was based on 23 patients ages 13 to 21 who developed myocarditis after their second dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine. An analysis of blood samples from nine of these patients — all of whom had gotten Pfizer — found elevated cytokine levels.
Yale study reveals insights into post-vaccine heart inflammation cases
https://news.yale.edu/2023/05/05/yale-study-reveals-insights-post-vaccine-heart-inflammation-cases
In a new study, Yale scientists have identified the immune signature of rare cases of myocarditis among those vaccinated against COVID-19 with mRNA vaccines.
When new COVID-19 vaccines were first administered two years ago, public health officials found an increase in cases of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle, particularly among young males who had been vaccinated with mRNA vaccines. It was unclear, however, what exactly was causing this reaction.
In a new study, Yale scientists have identified the immune signature of these heart inflammation cases.
-
The risk of developing myocarditis — or inflammation of the heart muscle — is seven times higher with a COVID-19 infection than with the COVID-19 vaccine, according to a recent study by Penn State College of Medicine scientists. Patients with myocarditis can experience chest pains, shortness of breath or an irregular heartbeat. In severe cases, the inflammation can lead to heart failure and death.
https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/myocarditis-seven-times-more-likely-covid-19-vaccines/
-
The risk of developing myocarditis — or inflammation of the heart muscle — is seven times higher with a COVID-19 infection than with the COVID-19 vaccine, according to a recent study by Penn State College of Medicine scientists. Patients with myocarditis can experience chest pains, shortness of breath or an irregular heartbeat. In severe cases, the inflammation can lead to heart failure and death.
https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/myocarditis-seven-times-more-likely-covid-19-vaccines/
You should get boosted again.
-
You should get boosted again.
Why bother? I'm already dead and/or turning into a zombie reptile.
-
https://abc3340.com/news/local/pinson-valley-high-school-student-death-medical-emergency-basketball-jefferson-county-schools-physicals-aed-caleb-white
The preseason physicals are gonna need to step their games up… RIP young fella 😢
-
https://www.si.com/college/usc/basketball/lebron-bronny-james-head-to-mayo-clinic-for-health-answers-ak1987
-
Maybe an mRNA vaccine???
Just asking questions right? Sounds like you were not correct.
-
https://apnews.com/article/bronny-james-cardiac-arrest-3953eee8789e83f3cccfb6dd798bc54e
-
Just asking questions right? Sounds like you were not correct.
What a dunk!
-
What a dunk!
Sorry next time I will use pig emoji’s so you appreciate it more
-
Poor kid. Imagine having to go public with something like this in an attempt to stop the fake news, lies, and bullsht conspiracy theorists.
-
Poor kid. Imagine having to go public with something like this in an attempt to stop the fake news, lies, and bullsht conspiracy theorists.
I half agree. We could all use less bullsht, but he and his family have chosen a public life to become uber wealthy. Basketball is no different than Keeping Up With The Kardashians, all entertainment business. The James' want to be in the public eye to make money. I'd bet the farm they would say the juice is worth the squeeze.
-
I half agree. We could all use less bullsht, but he and his family have chosen a public life to become uber wealthy. Basketball is no different than Keeping Up With The Kardashians, all entertainment business. The James' want to be in the public eye to make money. I'd bet the farm they would say the juice is worth the squeeze.
Wut?
-
I half agree. We could all use less bullsht, but he and his family have chosen a public life to become uber wealthy. Basketball is no different than Keeping Up With The Kardashians, all entertainment business. The James' want to be in the public eye to make money. I'd bet the farm they would say the juice is worth the squeeze.
Being a professional athlete - or in any other high profile, well-paid profession - means your personal medical information belongs in public?
-
Sure. Especially for Vegas odds. 18 year old kids more than anyo e else. The secret underground conspiracy theory Vegas had odds as to whether it was vaccine related. Money changed hands in the Karen community.
-
Being a professional athlete - or in any other high profile, well-paid profession - means your personal medical information belongs in public?
Free speech and free press has been a good thing on balance. You are welcome to ignore any or all of it.
-
Free speech and free press has been a good thing on balance. You are welcome to ignore any or all of it.
That's not what free speech means, nor is it what you said earlier
-
Basketball is no different than Keeping Up With The Kardashians, all entertainment business.
Except for the talent part of course.
-
Except for the talent part of course.
Yes, but as far as being an attention seeking, vapid a-hole, Lebron can hold his own right with the Kartrashians.