Milwaukee Streetcar

[mu_hilltopper]

The NewsHour had a segment a few weeks back about mass transit .. I knew there was a subsidy involved, I just had no idea what it was.  I figured the public picked up, I dunno, 25-50% of the cost of a "ride".

They gave a figure, I think it was for BART, that each ride cost $6, and the passenger paid $1.50.   WOW.   I had no idea (some) subsidies were like 70-90% of the total.   

And I was surprised that a ride cost anywhere near $6.    My 50 mile round trip commute in my car costs $4 in gas, let's say $1 in insurance, depreciation .. hard to understand how ONE bus trip is $6.  That's not even a round trip.   Seems like it costs society $12 for my trip to work on a bus, but only $5 if I pay for it myself.

I mean, I supported mass transit figuring its cost to society was cheaper than everyone just driving their own car.  But that math sure doesn't seem to work out.  What am I missing?   (besides the environmental argument.)

[Coleman]

I mean, I supported mass transit figuring its cost to society was cheaper than everyone just driving their own car.  But that math sure doesn't seem to work out.  What am I missing?   (besides the environmental argument.)

It is cheaper if everyone does it. Hardly anybody does. So the cost of each ride goes up. Whether you have 5 people in a bus or 25 people in a bus, you have the exact same expenses (bus, gas, driver, insurance). More people ride, cost per driver goes down.

[mu_hilltopper]

(Not to be insulting, but: well, duh.)   

I guess the real question is .. what %age of commuters do you need to stop driving, and take the bus, for it to be reasonably competitive with just driving?

(Of course, $5/gallon gas would change the math too.  I get that.)

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

It is cheaper if everyone does it. Hardly anybody does. So the cost of each ride goes up. Whether you have 5 people in a bus or 25 people in a bus, you have the exact same expenses (bus, gas, driver, insurance). More people ride, cost per driver goes down.

So it's all about coercion. How democratic (small "d"!) of you. Restricting choices, restricting opportunity because you think you can manage people's lives better than they can themselves.

[Coleman]

So it's all about coercion. How democratic (small "d"!) of you. Restricting choices, restricting opportunity because you think you can manage people's lives better than they can themselves.

Wow, talk about a jump. Who said anything about coercion? I was just stating a basic economic principle (more people do it, it will cost less...as Hilltopper said...duh). Are there more positives than negatives to mass transit? I think so. But I never said I believed in coercing people to do it. We must make it an attractive enough option that enough people want to do it. Sadly, I think too many people in Wisconsin are romantically tied to their pick-up trucks and SUVs, even though 90% of people have no use for them.

I love how people of a certain unnamed political stance resort to a personal attack like this if they disagree with you. Stick with the issues and make a rational argument, or you look like a fool.

Any other completely ridiculous statements you want to put in my mouth?

[Coleman]

I guess the real question is .. what %age of commuters do you need to stop driving, and take the bus, for it to be reasonably competitive with just driving?

(Of course, $5/gallon gas would change the math too.  I get that.)

The first part of your post....I have no idea. That would be an important statistic to find out.

And you are absolutely right about the gas. This topic would carry more relevance if gas prices hadn't gone down so much recently. But you are kidding yourself if you think they are going to stay at $1.90 forever.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Wow, talk about a jump. Who said anything about coercion? I was just stating a basic economic principle (more people do it, it will cost less...as Hilltopper said...duh). Are there more positives than negatives to mass transit? I think so. But I never said I believed in coercing people to do it.

You didn't need to say anything. The collectivist Left says it all with its actions.

Spiking taxes on non-users to pay for a system of transport that 95% of people will never use is absolutely coercive.

Working to raise the price of gasoline through badgering of oil companies and decades-long bans on drilling is absolutely coercive.

Passing federal laws for local transportation funding which requires a local funding component absent any local vote is absolutely coercive.

Social engineering is completely coercive. The Big Government Left doesn't need to put people on the trains itself. It just needs to make every other facet of the lives of people who don't want to ride some wasteful and inefficient street car miserable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Count me on the huge WASTE OF MONEY bandwagon on this.


Not to mention any number of other reasons (there are many) that this is a boondoggle that will be used by very few people but cost a ton.  We have it in Los Angeles and other cities I visit have it.  It's a "feel good" project with very little ROI that benefits a handful of folks.  People will argue that it creates jobs and helps to get people from A to B.  OK, but it also has an incredible capital expense, benefits few (not the many), has large maintenance expense, etc.

We have oil galore in the gulf, Alaska, the Continental shelf, not to mention more cubic tons of natural gas then any country in the world and more shale than you can shake a stick at.   Gas can remain low if we CHOOSE to keep it low as a nation, but we don't have the juevos to do that.  It would also create jobs, many more in fact....car producers, oil producers, transportation of the product, distribution.  But what the hell.

I get that some people love to ride the train but I don't see how this comes close to solving any transportation issues or energy for that matter.   If someone can find a city where light rail has been put in and TRULY made a difference (not the fluff articles, but the business articles that show how they are losing there arse) then I'd like to read them.

[Coleman]

Count me on the huge WASTE OF MONEY bandwagon on this.

We have oil galore in the gulf, Alaska, the Continental shelf, not to mention more cubic tons of natural gas then any country in the world and more shale than you can shake a stick at.   Gas can remain low if we CHOOSE to keep it low as a nation, but we don't have the juevos to do that.  It would also create jobs, many more in fact....car producers, oil producers, transportation of the product, distribution.  But what the hell.

Just to reiterate...I stated earlier in this thread that this particular streetcar system is a bad idea and a waste of money for Milwaukee in this instance. We kind of wandered off into the general issue of mass transit and that is what my most recent posts were addressing.

[Coleman]

You didn't need to say anything. The collectivist Left says it all with its actions.

Working to raise the price of gasoline through badgering of oil companies and decades-long bans on drilling is absolutely coercive.

Passing federal laws for local transportation funding which requires a local funding component absent any local vote is absolutely coercive.

We are talking about mass transit. Not gas or oil prices. Exactly what federal laws are you referring to? Stay on topic...you are wandering and it doesn't help your argument (if you would prefer to go on some rant about leftists...be my guest but I am not going to participate in that argument).

You seemed to have grouped me with the "Left" based on my stance on ONE issue...and then brought in grievances with the "Left" that are unrelated to the original topic at hand.

If you must know...I consider myself an independent who will vote for what makes the most sense for the country (not just myself and my personal finances). Mass transit spurs growth in cities. Take a look around. We are falling behind.

[Skatastrophy]

We need to hook MKE up to METRA Rail from chicago and expand it to our suburbs.  Commuter rail == win.

We don't need another go at a more expensive downtown trolley system to get poor people to jobs that don't exist.

Wisconsin, and specifically Milwaukee County, residents pay some of the highest property taxes in the nation and this is the crap we get in return?  Weird that businesses are leaving along with any intelligent young people.

The only benefit that those of us that actually pay our taxes will ever see from this is if one of us gets hit by one of these "light rail vehicles" and collects insurance from it.  Just think, you could be the next Freeway!

[Wareagle]

The only benefit that those of us that actually pay our taxes will ever see from this is if one of us gets hit by one of these "light rail vehicles" and collects insurance from it.  Just think, you could be the next Freeway!

I think you would be the first "Streetcar."

[🏀]

During the KRM process, METRA has expressed great concern about the connection of the services. The Kenosha METRA station provides very minimal schedule for a bookend station. It is a long trip and most of the trains do not reach Kenosha. Also, the further congestion of the line is of great concern.

A KRM to METRA connection would not be more ideal than taking the Amtrak.



The fact of the matter is that Milwaukee and it's surrounding suburbs do not have the population to support a METRA type rail. The physical layout would be very similar to METRA's. Milwaukee would have a center-hub rail with four legs (Bayside, Pewaukee, Greendale, Racine?). Each leg would have 4-6 stops. This would hardly be enough ridership to warrant such a system.

[Skatastrophy]

The fact of the matter is that Milwaukee and it's surrounding suburbs do not have the population to support a METRA type rail. The physical layout would be very similar to METRA's. Milwaukee would have a center-hub rail with four legs (Bayside, Pewaukee, Greendale, Racine?). Each leg would have 4-6 stops. This would hardly be enough ridership to warrant such a system.

I agree.  I don't need 4 legs.  I only need them to start at my house and go downtown

A downtown loop will be the same as the busses.  Poor people complaining that it costs $2, homeless people paying for a ticket and sleeping on it all day, and suburban people not being serviced by it so they complain about paying for it.

The MCTS bus service is actually one of the best in the nation.  If we absolutely must spend this money somewhere other than balancing the county budget for once, then we might as well use it on existing infrastructure that hasn't been getting the money they need lately.  Putting in something new that there isn't a demand for that will compete with our existing bus service is the height of silliness.  It would be funny if it weren't my money.

[Coleman]

The fact of the matter is that Milwaukee and it's surrounding suburbs do not have the population to support a METRA type rail. The physical layout would be very similar to METRA's. Milwaukee would have a center-hub rail with four legs (Bayside, Pewaukee, Greendale, Racine?). Each leg would have 4-6 stops. This would hardly be enough ridership to warrant such a system.

Says who? Like I said earlier in this thread...you could expand it to Port Washington in the North...hell you could even go to Sheboygan. Go to Delafield to the West or even Johnson Creek or Madison...then I bet you get ridership (imagine how many people would use it for Badger and Brewer games). The shortest leg would probably be south to Kenosha...but I bet you could still get 5 or 6 legitimate stops in there. North and West would be much more.

[mu_hilltopper]

Badger or Brewer games just aren't enough to justify a rail line.  You've gotta have commuters who use it 5 days a week, or it's just a total waste of money.

I imagine there are some folks who commute from Milw Metro to Chicago .. but .. those folks have a long ride .. they're not going to be up for 3 transfers to get to their exact location.   If it's not about 10 minutes off the line, they aint going.

[🏀]

Says who? Like I said earlier in this thread...you could expand it to Port Washington in the North...hell you could even go to Sheboygan. Go to Delafield to the West or even Johnson Creek or Madison...then I bet you get ridership (imagine how many people would use it for Badger and Brewer games). The shortest leg would probably be south to Kenosha...but I bet you could still get 5 or 6 legitimate stops in there. North and West would be much more.

And your shortest leg, Kenosha, would have the most population encompassed. While this is the most populated line, it doesn't compare to a single METRA line. The majority of METRA lines have the population needed still within Cook County with stop like Des Plaines and Cumberland. The Milwaukee region does not have the population to support this type of transit.

Sports do not carry any type of transportation other than automobiles, unless it's Wrigley Field.