no homo (nh)

[Jables1604]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ctpost.com/news/amp/Yovino-sentenced-to-1-year-in-false-rape-case-13177363.php

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ctpost.com/news/amp/Yovino-sentenced-to-1-year-in-false-rape-case-13177363.php

Correct. That was the recent case I was thinking of. There are others but they are few and far between. From what we know, Yovino is a terrible person and is being held accountable for her actions. This was only decided in the last few months. I tried to see if anyone knows what happened to the two football players. Based on what we know, I would hope the school would reverse its decision.

[jficke13]

This thread has really taken a strange turn.

[Pakuni]

Being expelled from school can have life consequences, you seem very matter of fact as if this is no big deal.  It is a big deal, and should be a big deal.  In some cases there are only a few schools in the country that have particular programs and if someone is booted, they may never be able to go to a school with that field of expertise to study again, breaking a life long dream.

It is dangerous and complex, but let us not sell the impacts short to those accused wrongfully.

Oh, Chicos .... you asked why those involved in a student disciplinary hearing are not granted the same due process rights as those in the criminal system, such as the right to face one's accuser. The simple answer - whether you like it or not  - is that the consequences of being found "guilty" by a student discipline board aren't nearly as severe or long-lasting as being found guilty in a courtroom. You're embarrassing yourself to suggest otherwise.
Yes, having to leave one school for another is a consequence and an inconvenience. No, it won't ruin a life long dream. Stop being so dramatic.

[Benny B]

I repeat, this is not the hill I am gonna die on Topper, but it can you say in plain English, it's not okay for one for one poster to use sexually charged language against another posters' children.

But Sultan just said he doesn't have a daughter.

If someone said "I'd be down with sodomizing Baron Trump's son this weekend," would anyone seriously take that as a threat/insult?

[reinko]

But Sultan just said he doesn't have a daughter.

If someone said "I'd be down with sodomizing Baron Trump's son this weekend," would anyone seriously take that as a threat/insult?

I think the intentions of a poster to take it to that level, (I'm suspect JB knows the family makeup of sultan) speaks volumes.  I think it's moot that Sultan doesn't have a daughter. To each their own, I guess.

[Benny B]

I think the intentions of a poster to take it to that level, (I'm suspect JB knows the family makeup of sultan) speaks volumes.

Interesting.  Up until now, the consensus of this thread was that intentions are irrelevant.

I think it's moot that Sultan doesn't have a daughter. To each their own, I guess.

There we are... back on track.

[Lennys Tap]

Correct. That was the recent case I was thinking of. There are others but they are few and far between. From what we know, Yovino is a terrible person and is being held accountable for her actions. This was only decided in the last few months. I tried to see if anyone knows what happened to the two football players. Based on what we know, I would hope the school would reverse its decision.

Of course they are "few and far between". It is virtually impossible to prove a negative.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Of course they are "few and far between". It is virtually impossible to prove a negative.

Who said anything about trying to prove a negative? We're talking about proving that a false allegation was made.

The point I'm making is this. I've found that people who are outraged by the due process in university sexual assault cases are often quick to turn around and then demand that accusers are held responsible for false allegations with no concern for their due process. It's yet another reason why the due process argument rings hollow to me. People aren't outraged by the due process,  they are outraged that behavior they used to and may still consider acceptable is now considered a rules violation. But they know it's not appropriate to say that so they use due process as an avenue to push back.

[Lennys Tap]

Who said anything about trying to prove a negative? We're talking about proving that a false allegation was made.

??? Proving that a false allegation was made is the very definition of trying to prove a negative. Short of an airtight alibi or a Perry Mason breakdown by the accuser it's virtually impossible. That doesn't mean the allegations are true (or in some cases even reasonable). That's the reason that the accused always has the presumption of innocence - or did anyway.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Interesting.  Up until now, the consensus of this thread was that intentions are irrelevant.

The intention of the poster couldn't be more crystal clear. 

Have the debate if you want about what would be appropriate if a person "didn't mean it that way" and didn't intend it to be harmful, but that is simply not the case here.  He knew exactly what he was doing, intended it to be a slur, did it repeatedly, then doubled down when called out on it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

??? Proving that a false allegation was made is the very definition of trying to prove a negative. Short of an airtight alibi or a Perry Mason breakdown by the accuser it's virtually impossible. That doesn't mean the allegations are true (or in some cases even reasonable). That's the reason that the accused always has the presumption of innocence - or did anyway.

Incorrect. Submitting a false report or false allegation is a crime. Proving that someone committed that crime is proving a positive. I'm not asking someone to prove that a sexual assault didn't happen, I am asking someone to prove that someone made a false allegation. And therein lies the point. Those who claim to be champions of due process often are interested in the due process of the other side. They are quick to claim false allegation with no proof or due process.

As for your little quip at the end. The accused has the presumption of innocence in a court of law (and in the university process as well). That is the only place that is owed. Public opinion is not beholden to that and never has been. Despite all the hand wringing on this topic, that fact has not changed. Burden of proof still rests with the prosecution/university.

[Lennys Tap]

Incorrect. Submitting a false report or false allegation is a crime. Proving that someone committed that crime is proving a positive. I'm not asking someone to prove that a sexual assault didn't happen, I am asking someone to prove that someone made a false allegation. And therein lies the point. Those who claim to be champions of due process often are interested in the due process of the other side. They are quick to claim false allegation with no proof or due process.

????????????? You're "not asking someone to prove that a sexual assault didn't happen" but you're "asking someone to prove that that someone made a false accusation". From the accused point of view those are exactly the same thing.

[Lennys Tap]

As for your little quip at the end. The accused has the presumption of innocence in a court of law (and in the university process as well). That is the only place that is owed. Public opinion is not beholden to that and never has been. Despite all the hand wringing on this topic, that fact has not changed. Burden of proof still rests with the prosecution/university.

You're absolutely right that public opinion is not beholden to evidence of any kind. Of course, to the extent that the opinion is an informed and unprejudiced one it should be.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

????????????? You're "not asking someone to prove that a sexual assault didn't happen" but you're "asking someone to prove that that someone made a false accusation". From the accused point of view those are exactly the same thing.

No it is not. If someone accuses someone of a sexual assault, but the sexual assault didn't happen, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was a false allegation in the legal sense. A false allegation requires that someone knowingly accuses someone of a crime they didn't commit. Most of the time when an accused is found innocent it is not because the allegation was false, it's because there was not enough evidence or because the parties had different understandings of whether or not consent was given.

You're absolutely right that public opinion is not beholden to evidence of any kind. Of course, to the extent that the opinion is an informed and unprejudiced one it should be.

You changed your argument here. We were talking about presuming innocence until proven guilt. That has nothing to do with evidence. Of course course informed and unprejudiced opinions are based on evidence. Couldn't agree more. But the public has no obligation to assume anyone innocent. In fact, presuming innocence would prove bias towards one side. In legal proceedings? Absolutely, bias is towards the accused is an absolute must. For an average Joe to have an opinion? Absolutely not.

[Pakuni]

????????????? You're "not asking someone to prove that a sexual assault didn't happen" but you're "asking someone to prove that that someone made a false accusation". From the accused point of view those are exactly the same thing.

In what legal or quasi-legal setting is the accused required to prove a sexual assault didn't happen?

[GGGG]

In what legal or quasi-legal setting is the accused required to probe a sexual assault didn't happen?

Not only that, but yes, false allegations can be made and students may be kicked out of school.  It happens.  It also happens that students may be falsely accused of cheating, plagiarism, etc.  And history shows that many people have been imprisoned due to false accusations only to be found to be innocent later.

So what we need to do is ensure that colleges and universities have the best procedures in place to investigate and judge these incidents.  Just because someone has been falsely accused of something, that doesn't mean that no one who does the same thing can be investigated.

[Benny B]

In what legal or quasi-legal setting is the accused required to probe a sexual assault didn't happen?

You may be on to something.... if we allowed probing of the accused, we'd probably decrease SA by 98%.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You may be on to something.... if we allowed probing of the accused, we'd probably decrease SA by 98%.

This thread needed a good laugh. Well done.

[Pakuni]

You may be on to something.... if we allowed probing of the accused, we'd probably decrease SA by 98%.

[MU82]

Was it proved - REALLY PROVED - that Cosby did what he was charged doing?

How could the jury have known he committed the crime?

You look at all the evidence and you make a judgment, with these cases as in most others in which "proving" something is impossible.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Was it proved - REALLY PROVED - that Cosby did what he was charged doing?

How could the jury have known he committed the crime?

You look at all the evidence and you make a judgment, with these cases as in most others in which "proving" something is impossible.

Well, under oath in a civil case where he thought his testimony couldn't be used in a criminal case, he admitted it.  So there's that.

[Lennys Tap]

Was it proved - REALLY PROVED - that Cosby did what he was charged doing?

How could the jury have known he committed the crime?

You look at all the evidence and you make a judgment, with these cases as in most others in which "proving" something is impossible.

If you want proof beyond a shadow of a doubt virtually no case from speeding to murder is REALLY PROVED.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is another kettle of fish. Cosby was (IMO) proven guilty under those conditions.

[MU82]

If you want proof beyond a shadow of a doubt virtually no case from speeding to murder is REALLY PROVED.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is another kettle of fish. Cosby was (IMO) proven guilty under those conditions.

Agreed, Lenny.

[WarriorDad]

The simple answer - whether you like it or not  - is that the consequences of being found "guilty" by a student discipline board aren't nearly as severe or long-lasting as being found guilty in a courtroom. You're embarrassing yourself to suggest otherwise.
Yes, having to leave one school for another is a consequence and an inconvenience. No, it won't ruin a life long dream. Stop being so dramatic.

It is a sad day that tarnishing a person's reputation is met with such shrugs.  It is more than simply having to transfer, which alone could be soul crushing to some students.  There will always be people that think the person is guilty, unless the accuser comes out and forcefully denies it. 

We have to do better as a country to protect both sides.