Stanford rape verdict

[jsglow]

I'm going to take a different tack on this with a story from my youth.

A fairly large group of guys, myself included, headed to a Brewer's tailgate, game and post game festivities one night.  When the caravan of cars showed up to pick me up, I learned that my then girlfriend had joined the group previously unbeknownst to me.  No biggie.  It was a 'guy's night' but there were a handful of girls along.  All good, but it's important to note that neither of us considered it a 'date'.  We were each simply part of a larger group.  Bottom line, I certainly didn't feel obligated to hang with, or more importantly, watch her.

Anyway, by the end of the night she had been significantly over-served.  And 3 super honorable guys (including me) took active responsibility to get her home safely.  I think we had to pull over 2-3 times on the drive home so she could step out of the car with assistance to 'get some air'.  When we arrived at her house we physically 'carried' her up the stairs to her room and got her safely into bed with a bucket.  As one might expect, the noise woke her parents and I caught absolute hell in the hallway for 'doing this' to her while my friends scurried down the stairs.  I apologized as best I could and got the heck out.

The next day notwithstanding a bit of a headache I went back over.  And her dad stopped me the moment I walked in the door, apologized to me, and thanked me for getting her home safely.  I remember him saying that the 'problem' was still asleep upstairs.

I've reminded each of my kids that they are always their sister's keeper.  Every time.  Stranger, acquaintance or friend.  That 3a confrontation in the hallway really sucked.  But nothing had happened to her other than one heck of a hangover the next day and for me that tongue lashing was a small price to pay.     

[rocket surgeon]

Especially after a jury of his peers recommended the max, 14 year, sentence.

so what did the judge think?  that the jury was all full of chit err something? 

[rocket surgeon]

I'm going to take a different tack on this with a story from my youth.

A fairly large group of guys, myself included, headed to a Brewer's tailgate, game and post game festivities one night.  When the caravan of cars showed up to pick me up, I learned that my then girlfriend had joined the group previously unbeknownst to me.  No biggie.  It was a 'guy's night' but there were a handful of girls along.  All good, but it's important to note that neither of us considered it a 'date'.  We were each simply part of a larger group.  Bottom line, I certainly didn't feel obligated to hang with, or more importantly, watch her.

Anyway, by the end of the night she had been significantly over-served.  And 3 super honorable guys (including me) took active responsibility to get her home safely.  I think we had to pull over 2-3 times on the drive home so she could step out of the car with assistance to 'get some air'.  When we arrived at her house we physically 'carried' her up the stairs to her room and got her safely into bed with a bucket.  As one might expect, the noise woke her parents and I caught absolute hell in the hallway for 'doing this' to her while my friends scurried down the stairs.  I apologized as best I could and got the heck out.

The next day notwithstanding a bit of a headache I went back over.  And her dad stopped me the moment I walked in the door, apologized to me, and thanked me for getting her home safely.  I remember him saying that the 'problem' was still asleep upstairs.

I've reminded each of my kids that they are always their sister's keeper.  Every time.  Stranger, acquaintance or friend.  That 3a confrontation in the hallway really sucked.  But nothing had happened to her other than one heck of a hangover the next day and for me that tongue lashing was a small price to pay.   

that is a nice story.  but ya can't leave us hangin here...so tell us, did she become mrs. glow? 

[warriorchick]

that is a nice story.  but ya can't leave us hangin here...so tell us, did she become mrs. glow?

No.

[rocket surgeon]

No.

oh shoot!  that's right.  you're the mrs.  ya do have to admit though, if that were my daughter, i would have given mr. glow at least a couple of goats, a chicken and the back forty for him to marry her-hein'er hey?

[jsglow]

that is a nice story.  but ya can't leave us hangin here...so tell us, did she become mrs. glow?

Nope.  But perhaps the scariest realization is that one of that 'large group of 20-30 guys' (not one of the 3) has become quite infamous in recent years.  So you can never be too careful.

[brandx]

If we're going to get into arguments of principle, great, let's do that.

Is this appropriate of police?:

1) Person A's car is vandalized. The service door the garage was locked, but the perps gained access. The doors of the vehicle were locked, but they broke in.

2) Person B's car is vandalized. The service door was not locked. The doors of the vehicle were not locked.

Many police will brush off 2) with "lock your stuff up" and do little to no investigation.

Is Person B more responsible for the crime committed against them or are the police wrong?

Person B is NOT more responsible. Yes, the police are wrong.

In my case, my van was broken into twice - both times a window was broken to gain entry. Thereafter, I left the van unlocked. I just made sure nothing of value was inside.

The police said "we'll write up a report. You can pick it up tomorrow to send to your insurance company". That WAS the entire investigation.

[wadesworld]

Person B is NOT more responsible. Yes, the police are wrong.

In my case, my van was broken into twice - both times a window was broken to gain entry. Thereafter, I left the van unlocked. I just made sure nothing of value was inside.

The police said "we'll write up a report. You can pick it up tomorrow to send to your insurance company". That WAS the entire investigation.

+1.

When someone drinks too much they should have to expect a hangover, not to be raped.  It's really that simple.

[warriorchick]

[GGGG]

+1.

When someone drinks too much they should have to expect a hangover, not to be raped.  It's really that simple.

Not to mention that the law protects people who drink too much.

[77ncaachamps]

Just want to throw this in the mix: getting the sex offender label differs from state to state.

Article from two years ago, but look at the discrepancies then:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/08/sex_offender_registry_laws_by_state_mapped.html

And there's no federal database, just shared information between states: https://www.nsopw.gov/en-US/Registry?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

"States apply differing sets of criteria dictating which offenders are required to be listed on public databases. Some states use scientific risk assessment tools to determine the future risk of the offender and exclude low-risk offenders from public database. In some states, offenders are categorized according to the tier level related to the listed offense. Duration of registration vary usually from 10 years to life depending on the state legislation and tier/risk- category. Some states exclude low tier offenders from public registries while in others, all offenders are publicly listed.[34] Some states offer possibility to petition to be removed from the registry under certain circumstances."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender_registry#United_States

[Dr. Blackheart]

I'm going to take a different tack on this with a story from my youth.

A fairly large group of guys, myself included, headed to a Brewer's tailgate, game and post game festivities one night.  When the caravan of cars showed up to pick me up, I learned that my then girlfriend had joined the group previously unbeknownst to me.  No biggie.  It was a 'guy's night' but there were a handful of girls along.  All good, but it's important to note that neither of us considered it a 'date'.  We were each simply part of a larger group.  Bottom line, I certainly didn't feel obligated to hang with, or more importantly, watch her.

Anyway, by the end of the night she had been significantly over-served.  And 3 super honorable guys (including me) took active responsibility to get her home safely.  I think we had to pull over 2-3 times on the drive home so she could step out of the car with assistance to 'get some air'.  When we arrived at her house we physically 'carried' her up the stairs to her room and got her safely into bed with a bucket.  As one might expect, the noise woke her parents and I caught absolute hell in the hallway for 'doing this' to her while my friends scurried down the stairs.  I apologized as best I could and got the heck out.

The next day notwithstanding a bit of a headache I went back over.  And her dad stopped me the moment I walked in the door, apologized to me, and thanked me for getting her home safely.  I remember him saying that the 'problem' was still asleep upstairs.

I've reminded each of my kids that they are always their sister's keeper.  Every time.  Stranger, acquaintance or friend.  That 3a confrontation in the hallway really sucked.  But nothing had happened to her other than one heck of a hangover the next day and for me that tongue lashing was a small price to pay.   

+1.  When in battle, traveling overseas on business or out in groups partying, never leave anyone behind....

[Jay Bee]

Do you believe drinking yourself into a blackout state makes you more susceptible to bad things happening to you? "Oh, I've been blackout drunk like 7 times... let's party!"... it SHOULD BE a fine idea.. there is no guilt in doing so.

Is it a risky behavior? Absolutely. There are many people and situations which show getting obliterated, blackout drunk is a risky behavior. You should be able to do so, and you can, but please remember there are dirty criminals out there who may seize an opportunity.

But...

If we are going to tell girls who like to go out and get black out drunk "oh, it's fine.. go ahead"... should we not say the same to those who leave their doors unlocked?

[wadesworld]

Do you believe drinking yourself into a blackout state makes you more susceptible to bad things happening to you? "Oh, I've been blackout drunk like 7 times... let's party!"... it SHOULD BE a fine idea.. there is no guilt in doing so.

Is it a risky behavior? Absolutely. There are many people and situations which show getting obliterated, blackout drunk is a risky behavior. You should be able to do so, and you can, but please remember there are dirty criminals out there who may seize an opportunity.

But...

If we are going to tell girls who like to go out and get black out drunk "oh, it's fine.. go ahead"... should we not say the same to those who leave their doors unlocked?

Plenty of people are sexually assualted without any drugs or alcohol in them. Just like plenty of people are robbed without any drugs or alcohol in them (myself included), plenty locked cars (my sister's included) and homes are broken into, etc.

The victims share the exact same amount of blame in any of those circumstances, intoxicated or not. Zero.

[MUsoxfan]

Do you believe drinking yourself into a blackout state makes you more susceptible to bad things happening to you? "Oh, I've been blackout drunk like 7 times... let's party!"... it SHOULD BE a fine idea.. there is no guilt in doing so.

Is it a risky behavior? Absolutely. There are many people and situations which show getting obliterated, blackout drunk is a risky behavior. You should be able to do so, and you can, but please remember there are dirty criminals out there who may seize an opportunity.

But...

If we are going to tell girls who like to go out and get black out drunk "oh, it's fine.. go ahead"... should we not say the same to those who leave their doors unlocked?

Do you feel that criminals who victimize those who open the doors to victimization should be punished less because they committed a simpler crime?

Because if not, I'm not sure of the point you're making

[Benny B]

What it boils down to is this:

Should an assailant receive a lesser sentence because the victim deliberately put herself into a vulnerable position? No.

Does the victim deserve a few rounds of "I told you so" for putting herself into a vulnerable position? Probably not.

Should this be held out as an example of what not to do if you'd prefer to avoid having something bad happen to you?  Absolutely.

[MUsoxfan]

What it boils down to is this:

Should an assailant receive a lesser sentence because the victim deliberately put herself into a vulnerable position? No.

Does the victim deserve a few rounds of "I told you so" for putting herself into a vulnerable position? Probably not.

Should this be held out as an example of what not to do if you'd prefer to avoid having something bad happen to you?  Absolutely.

Yes. That should be universally be agreed upon

[wadesworld]

What it boils down to is this:

Should an assailant receive a lesser sentence because the victim deliberately put herself into a vulnerable position? No.

Does the victim deserve a few rounds of "I told you so" for putting herself into a vulnerable position? Probably not.

Should this be held out as an example of what not to do if you'd prefer to avoid having something bad happen to you?  Absolutely.

I don't think a good message to send to females heading off to college is, "Hey, don't get drunk to the point of passing out and you won't be raped. If you don't get drunk, nothing bad can happen to you."

[StillAWarrior]

I don't think a good message to send to females heading off to college is, "Hey, don't get drunk to the point of passing out and you won't be raped. If you don't get drunk, nothing bad can happen to you."

True.  But those aren't mutually exclusive (i.e., that's a strawman).  As a father of three teenage daughters (and as a decent human being), I am firmly in agreement with those arguing against blaming the victim (but I don't think anyone here is taking the contrary position).  But you can be damn sure I'm going to teach my daughters that it can be a dangerous world out there when you're overly intoxicated.  That's good parenting, and doesn't mean for a second that I'd blame them if they were raped while overly intoxicated.

[CTWarrior]

Right, but that has nothing really to do with the legalities surrounding the case or the sentencing.  That is the problem.  Too often those lines are blurred.

In fact the law takes extra steps to protect those who get themselves into those situations.  Look what he was convicted of.

As far as legal ramifications and sentencing, I agree with you 100%.  The fact that the victim was more vulnerable should not be a mitigating factor when determining the punishment of the offender.

[CTWarrior]

Any parent would.
But if your child became so drunk he/she could not stand on his/her own and were carried behind a dumpster and sexually assaulted while unconscious, I very much doubt you would argue that he/she bears responsibility for that violation. At least I hope not.  -  I would not blame him/her for being violated, but I would understand that he/she was responsible for the poor decisions that made him/her vulnerable.  This does not mean that the perpetrator is somehow less responsible.
Would it have been better for the victim of the Stanford case to have not become so intoxicated? Sure.
But the fact she was intoxicated ought not make her any less a victim (or less sympathetic) than someone raped while sober, right?  To me personally? No.  But I understand the reasoning why someone would.  I think everybody basically agrees about this, and this is an argument about not much.  I think we all agree that the vulnerable state of the victim in no way excuses or mitigates the actions of the rapist and he is solely responsible for the crime.  I think we all also agree that its probably not a good idea to get blackout drunk and that (though it shouldn't) increases your chances of harm to you or caused by you.  How you describe that in terms of "blame" is just semantics. 

[wadesworld]

True.  But those aren't mutually exclusive (i.e., that's a strawman).  As a father of three teenage daughters (and as a decent human being), I am firmly in agreement with those arguing against blaming the victim (but I don't think anyone here is taking the contrary position).  But you can be damn sure I'm going to teach my daughters that it can be a dangerous world out there when you're overly intoxicated.  That's good parenting, and doesn't mean for a second that I'd blame them if they were raped while overly intoxicated.

Absolutely bad things can happen when you are overly intoxicated and it's smart to know your limit.  But in my opinion there is ever a case of someone being raped where you should use it "as an example of what not to do if you prefer to avoid having something bad happen to you."  Blacking out while drinking does not cause rape.  The fact that someone was raped while they were blacked out was not because the victim was blacked out.  The only example that should be held up is not to be the scum that rapes someone.  Don't be Brock Turner is the only example that should be held up.  Otherwise if we tell people, "If you want to avoid being raped then don't get black out drunk," and someone gets raped without drugs or alcohol in his or her system, is he or she going to think that they somehow opened up the opportunity for someone to rape them that wasn't involving alcohol?  I don't think sending the message, "This action opens up the possibility of someone raping you" is a good example, ever.

[mu_hilltopper]

Conversation reminds me of a MU friend who lead the leaderboard on getting sick drunk all the time.

 "Dude, run up to the cliff.   Maybe lean over the cliff a little.  Don't jump.  It's still a lot of fun without all the puking -- for all of us."

[GGGG]

Absolutely bad things can happen when you are overly intoxicated and it's smart to know your limit.  But in my opinion there is ever a case of someone being raped where you should use it "as an example of what not to do if you prefer to avoid having something bad happen to you."  Blacking out while drinking does not cause rape.  The fact that someone was raped while they were blacked out was not because the victim was blacked out.  The only example that should be held up is not to be the scum that rapes someone.  Don't be Brock Turner is the only example that should be held up.  Otherwise if we tell people, "If you want to avoid being raped then don't get black out drunk," and someone gets raped without drugs or alcohol in his or her system, is he or she going to think that they somehow opened up the opportunity for someone to rape them that wasn't involving alcohol?  I don't think sending the message, "This action opens up the possibility of someone raping you" is a good example, ever.

Colleges and universities focus awareness on three things.

1. Don't put yourself in bad situations.

2. Watch out for your friends who get into bad situations or if you see something bad about to happen, try to prevent it from happening.

3. Don't rape people.

Very simplistic I know but what works is a multi-pronged approach.  You just can't tell potential victims "don't get drunk because bad things might happen to you."  You just can't tell potential rapists not to rape. 

[warriorchick]

Jay Bee, you are a pig.

If anything, one could argue that raping an unconscious woman is even worse because they have no chance of consenting or fighting back.

If someone robbed a quadriplegic who was rolling down the street by himself in an electric wheelchair, is that more or less heinous than robbing a 225-pound MMA fighter? 

What if that person was a quadriplegic because he was texting while driving and crashed his car? Would you say, "Well, he bears part of the responsibility, because it is his own fault that he is paralyzed"?