Protests

[tower912]

Cops in riot gear are never deployed on orders from their union.   You heard something wrong.   

Cops can gather and protest, but generally do so in street clothes.

[Lennys Tap]

You're all making some fair points, but also skirting around the primary problem, which is a cultural one. Law enforcement culture, to be exact.
Too many police officers look down upon the communities they serve, view other citizens antagonistically and work in an environment that too often accepts and even encourages negative interactions.
That's not because of a few bad apples sneaking through the academy or a handful of bad cops being protected by a union. That's the environment in which cops are trained and operate. To their credit, the great majority of cops work in this environment and still do their jobs honorably.
But what happened to George Floyd didn't occur because he was unlucky enough to run into four bad apples all at the same time. Derek Chauvin didn't put on his uniform May 25 planning to kill someone. But somewhere along the way he learned that it is acceptable to restrain a person by kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. The three other cops assisted, rather than intervene on Floyd's behalf, because they learned it was acceptable as well. At any point in that video does it appear that the cops believe they're doing anything wrong? And they did it because they viewed George Floyd as someone worthy of their contempt. Someone lesser. Not a fellow citizen with equal standing, but someone to be dominated with a knee to the neck.

The issues you're all raising are legit and worthy of attention. But fixing the problem is going to take a change in the way we view law enforcement, and the way law enforcement views us. I wish I knew exactly how we do that. I think there are some promising ideas out there, like what's been done in Camden, but I'm not sure that's realistic everywhere. I wish I had better ideas and solutions, but all I know is the problem runs far deeper than some bad cops being protected by the union.

Excellent post. I agree that changing “the way we view law enforcement and the way law enforcement views us” is the key. IMO getting cops off the street who don’t belong there
is the necessary first step.

[forgetful]

Lenny and Tower (and others), enjoying reading the back and forth. I'm learning something and I enjoy the respectful dialogue. My take away, you both make great points, which may suggest that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Thanks for the friendly dialogue and information.

[Lennys Tap]

Cops in riot gear are never deployed on orders from their union.   You heard something wrong.   

Cops can gather and protest, but generally do so in street clothes.

In the video I saw they were in street clothes.

[GooooMarquette]

You're all making some fair points, but also skirting around the primary problem, which is a cultural one. Law enforcement culture, to be exact.
Too many police officers look down upon the communities they serve, view other citizens antagonistically and work in an environment that too often accepts and even encourages negative interactions.
That's not because of a few bad apples sneaking through the academy or a handful of bad cops being protected by a union. That's the environment in which cops are trained and operate. To their credit, the great majority of cops work in this environment and still do their jobs honorably.
But what happened to George Floyd didn't occur because he was unlucky enough to run into four bad apples all at the same time. Derek Chauvin didn't put on his uniform May 25 planning to kill someone. But somewhere along the way he learned that it is acceptable to restrain a person by kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. The three other cops assisted, rather than intervene on Floyd's behalf, because they learned it was acceptable as well. At any point in that video does it appear that the cops believe they're doing anything wrong? And they did it because they viewed George Floyd as someone worthy of their contempt. Someone lesser. Not a fellow citizen with equal standing, but someone to be dominated with a knee to the neck.

Agree – and I believe the key word in your comment above is “culture.“ An individual may be good or bad when he or she joined the department, but the “tough on crime” culture has historically encouraged bad actors to be bad, and everyone to clam up and close ranks when something bad happens.

[MU82]

Good brief description of what it actually means to defund the police:

https://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-defund-police-show-1509407?amp=1&utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

John Oliver's entire show. Worth your time:

https://twitter.com/LastWeekTonight/status/1269993152171122689?s=19

Just watched John Oliver. It is an extremely informative half-hour on everything that has gone on throughout American history re the white supremacist culture of policing, what's going on today, some of the main roadblocks to fixing it, some ideas for the future, etc. Many of us know much of the stuff already, but I learned a few things, and even the stuff I knew it was good to see it presented so clearly and concisely.

And for those who are worried that it's an anti-Trump screed, it isn't. He has pointed words about Clinton and Cuomo, among others, while still acknowledging that Trump looked at a fire and decided the best solution was to throw gasoline on it.

Highly recommend.

Having said that, I have no idea how we really change the culture of policing in this country. It seems a daunting, impossible task.

[Jockey]

https://crooksandliars.com/2020/06/minnesota-cops-admit-slashing-tires

This is why these police forces need to be built from the ground up - with real, meaningful oversight.


At some point in the past few decades we seem to have slipped through Alice's Looking Glass and now live in some dystopian Orwellian world where Donald Trump is president and cops do things like "strategically deflate tires" by puncturing them, then lying about it, and then when presented with video proof lie some more about how the cars contained rocks and other weapons (none of them did, of course). And finally, at the very last, admitting they did it, but using their Orwellian double-speak to justify their lawlessness.

Mother Jones captured their bullcrap and wrote about it. On Monday, the cops fessed up, State Patrol and Anoka County deputies acknowledged targeting vehicles. Dozens were damaged.

[mu03eng]

Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.

If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose

[🏀]

Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.

If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose

Just got that horrid feel in my gut reading this.

[tower912]

Biden is walking away from it.   

[shoothoops]

Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19


“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN  I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“

-Trump

[Pakuni]

Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19


“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN  I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“

-Trump

Best president of our lifetimes.

[tower912]

ROFL

[wadesworld]

Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19


“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN  I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“

-Trump

I’ll add a comment. What a POS.

[GooooMarquette]

Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.

If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose

Agreed. The messaging could have major unintended consequences if it doesn’t change. Biden is smart to try to refocus the conversation. Hopefully the great majority of the protesters and Democratic officials follow his lead.

[MUfan12]

Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.

If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose

Dis right here.

Sure, it fits nicely on a sign. But it leaves too much vaguery that the GOP will fill with alarmist rhetoric.

[MU82]

ROFL

He's barely even a caricature of himself now. So wrapped up in conspiracy theories, Q-Anon stuff, blaming everything on antifa "terrorists." It's beyond a joke.

[cheebs09]

He's barely even a caricature of himself now. So wrapped up in conspiracy theories, Q-Anon stuff, blaming everything on antifa "terrorists." It's beyond a joke.

Judging by some of my “enlightened” relatives on Facebook, they eat up this type of stuff.

[mu03eng]

Agreed. The messaging could have major unintended consequences if it doesn’t change. Biden is smart to try to refocus the conversation. Hopefully the great majority of the protesters and Democratic officials follow his lead.

The question is does the pivot by Biden win/retain the left wing that is more prone to a literal interpretation of Defund the Police than Biden is going to sign up for? Put another way, will the protesters/left wing folks accept something that fits in the Overton Window? If not it will still fracture the party

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

If not it will still fracture the party

No.

[Pakuni]

The question is does the pivot by Biden win/retain the left wing that is more prone to a literal interpretation of Defund the Police than Biden is going to sign up for? Put another way, will the protesters/left wing folks accept something that fits in the Overton Window? If not it will still fracture the party

It's a fair question, but if I'm advising the Biden campaign, I'm far more worried about losing white suburban voters and swing state moderates who might recoil over "defund" rhetoric than I am worried about losing the far left wing. The left wing, at worst, might stay home. But a vote that stays home is better than a vote that goes to Trump.
And ultimately I think the hard left's abhorrence for Trump will have most of them turning out just to vote against him. Especially if Biden picks Kamala Harris as his running mate, which seems likely.

[mu03eng]

It's a fair question, but if I'm advising the Biden campaign, I'm far more worried about losing white suburban voters and swing state moderates who might recoil over "defund" rhetoric than I am worried about losing the far left wing. The left wing, at worst, might stay home. But a vote that stays home is better than a vote that goes to Trump.
And ultimately I think the hard left's abhorrence for Trump will have most of them turning out just to vote against him. Especially if Biden picks Kamala Harris as his running mate, which seems likely.

I agree with you, but as we saw with the mayor of Minneapolis if the reforms are generally pro-defund, do you lose them as a voter that you can't make up by winning back a Trump voter. Its fascinating from a political science standpoint

[MarquetteDano]

The question is does the pivot by Biden win/retain the left wing that is more prone to a literal interpretation of Defund the Police than Biden is going to sign up for? Put another way, will the protesters/left wing folks accept something that fits in the Overton Window? If not it will still fracture the party

If the far left wing had the juice they think it has,  Warren or Sanders would be the nominee.  And goes for two races in a row (Clinton and Biden).

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Best president of our lifetimes.

Character confirmed

[mu03eng]

If the far left wing had the juice they think it has,  Warren or Sanders would be the nominee.  And goes for two races in a row (Clinton and Biden).

Yeah, but how many of the protesters now find themselves on the left wing that weren't during the spring? Biden's big pivot to the nomination happened in South Carolina was in large part because of the black vote.....but has that black vote migrated from where Biden was then compared to where he is now.

Trump has his boogeyman to campaign against, the question is, how does Biden counter it and not lose at least some of the left wing.