Protests

[MU82]

Blaming "antifa" for violent protests ... talk about a hoax and a witch hunt.

https://apnews.com/20b9b86dba5c480bad759a3bd34cd875?fbclid=IwAR0tMCtjELD8B7gPaqmUkQHYpN3EJjt8ANNXILtIVBlBG61ShKz97iKBI9o

The president has tried to portray the protesters and looters with a broad brush as “radical-left, bad people,” ominously invoking the name “antifa,” an umbrella term for leftist militants bound more by belief than organizational structure. Trump tweeted last Sunday that he planned to designate antifa as a terrorist organization.

“These are acts of domestic terror,” Trump said in a Rose Garden speech Monday, moments after heavily armed troops and riot police advanced without warning on the largely peaceful protesters across the street from the White House.

Barr, put in charge of organizing the police and military response, activated the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force last weekend to target protest organizers.

“The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly,” Barr said in a statement issued Sunday.

There have been violent acts, including property destruction and theft. Police officers and protesters have been seriously injured and killed. But federal law enforcement officials have offered little evidence that antifa-aligned protesters could be behind a movement that has appeared nearly simultaneously in hundreds of cities and towns in all 50 states since Floyd’s death.

The AP obtained copies of daily confidential “Intelligence Notes” distributed this past week to local enforcement by the Department of Homeland Security that repeat, without citing evidence, that “organized violent opportunists — including suspected anarchist extremists — could increasingly perpetrate nationwide targeting of law enforcement and critical infrastructure.”

“We lack detailed reporting indicating the level of organization and planning by some violent opportunists and assess that most of the violence to date has been loosely organized on a level seen with previous widespread outbreaks of violence at lawful protests,” the assessment for Monday says.

Behind in all the polls, including those conducted by right-leaning pollsters like Fox News and Rasmussen, Trump is desperate to characterize all evils in the aftermath of the George Floyd assassination as caused by antifa, leftists and Dem-backed groups.

As usual, facts are optional.

[Lennys Tap]

I love cops.    I truly do.    And they have it the worst.     The right hates them because they have a strong union.    The left hates them because sometimes their lesser, dumber, more racist members do really stupid sh!t that makes the 99 % look bad.    And since all they have is each other, they close ranks when they should be openly ostracizing the bad ones.     All while the R's would really prefer they work for minimum wage and not get a pension.   

   They have trouble recruiting now, just like the teachers.    Once upon a time, the best and the finest wanted to be one of these two long honored professions.     Then, somehow, every societal woe became their fault.     

   I love cops.   I feel bad for the whipsaw they get from so many different sides.   They need to stop killing unarmed black people.   
   I love teachers.    I wish they were given the resources and support they need to perform their jobs well.   

Tower

Think this one really misses the mark.

First of all, the old 99% good anything (including cops) trope is BS. Let’s be honest. There are lots of bullies and would be bullies in our society. That they would naturally gravitate to a profession that gives them a badge, a gun and carte blanche to push people around. I don’t know what % of folks who join the force fit this profile, but I’ll bet the farm it’s more than 1%. Any systemic change should start with doing a better job of eliminating those candidates before they even get started.

Equivalency on the left and right hating the cops? LOL. The right may disagree with the idea of public unions (as did FDR, by the way), but they in no way hate cops. If anything, they’re guilty of romanticizing police work and backing them even when they’re at fault. “What do we want? Dead cops!” and the idea of defunding America’s police departments are memes only found on the left.

I love cops, too. Their jobs are difficult and made nearly impossible by those who want to second guess them at every turn. But more than 1% are bad. And way more than that are less than good.

[shoothoops]

Come for the angry racist white guy, stay for the interview of the glorious, peaceful, courage, of Samantha Francine:

https://twitter.com/drvox/status/1269746069740507136?s=19

[tower912]

Tower

Think this one really misses the mark.

First of all, the old 99% good anything (including cops) trope is BS. Let’s be honest. There are lots of bullies and would be bullies in our society. That they would naturally gravitate to a profession that gives them a badge, a gun and carte blanche to push people around. I don’t know what % of folks who join the force fit this profile, but I’ll bet the farm it’s more than 1%. Any systemic change should start with doing a better job of eliminating those candidates before they even get started.

Equivalency on the left and right hating the cops? LOL. The right may disagree with the idea of public unions (as did FDR, by the way), but they in no way hate cops. If anything, they’re guilty of romanticizing police work and backing them even when they’re at fault. “What do we want? Dead cops!” and the idea of defunding America’s police departments are memes only found on the left.

Lenny, sorry brother.   I have watched the right defunding the police for 30 years.   The department in my town is down 100 positions compared to 2007.  25%.  Same story all over.   Revenue sharing cuts from the state which has its legislature controlled nearly non-stop buy the R's.   Police and fire know revenue sharing cuts are code for  cut public safety. 

So, I am going to have to stick with my position.

[Pakuni]

Black business owner calls police to report robbery. Cop shows up and immediately punches him in the face.

https://www.al.com/news/2020/06/decatur-police-officer-punches-liquor-store-owner-who-reported-robbery.html

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny, sorry brother.   I have watched the right defunding the police for 30 years.   The department in my town is down 100 positions compared to 2007.  25%.  Same story all over.   Revenue sharing cuts from the state which has its legislature controlled nearly non-stop buy the R's.   Police and fire know revenue sharing cuts are code for  cut public safety. 

So, I am going to have to stick with my position.

Brother Tower, I trust you to fairly report what’s happened in your town. But if you take a national poll on who loves (not always wisely) and who doesn’t love the cops I think we both know which side the right and left will come down on.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Brother Tower, I trust you to fairly report what’s happened in your town. But if you take a national poll on who loves (not always wisely) and who doesn’t love the cops I think we both know which side the right and left will come down on.

Which maybe means it’s not that relevant of a poll question. Actions speak louder on these issues in my opinion. 

[reinko]

Lenny, sorry brother.   I have watched the right defunding the police for 30 years.   The department in my town is down 100 positions compared to 2007.  25%.  Same story all over.   Revenue sharing cuts from the state which has its legislature controlled nearly non-stop buy the R's.   Police and fire know revenue sharing cuts are code for  cut public safety. 

So, I am going to have to stick with my position.

Tower, I respect the hell out of you, and this is a judgment free question.  Since the 25% cut, what have been the impacts on crime and law enforcement?  Has crime risen proportionately?

[Lennys Tap]

Which maybe means it’s not that relevant of a poll question. Actions speak louder on these issues in my opinion.

Frenns

If you’re looking for how people feel, what their attitudes are, polls are relevant.

The way one feels about public unions has zero to do (IMO) with how they feel about cops. It’s not a litmus test, at least for me.

[tower912]

Brother Tower, I trust you to fairly report what’s happened in your town. But if you take a national poll on who loves (not always wisely) and who doesn’t love the cops I think we both know which side the right and left will come down on.

Brother Lenny, the right likes cops but hates paying for them.   A subset of the left doesn't trust them because of racial issues.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Frenns

If you’re looking for how people feel, what their attitudes are, polls are relevant.

The way one feels about public unions has zero to do (IMO) with how they feel about cops. It’s not a litmus test, at least for me.

Lenny You misunderstanding point.  It’s not a good question.  The left maybe empathizes until their neighborhood has people they don’t want ‘hanging out’. The right answers law and order but then does what tower hypothesizes.  It’s a hypothetical question and you get an ‘answer’. 

We’ve got a problem and the sooner we all realize it the better. 

[Pakuni]

Equivalency on the left and right hating the cops? LOL. The right may disagree with the idea of public unions (as did FDR, by the way), but they in no way hate cops. If anything, they’re guilty of romanticizing police work and backing them even when they’re at fault.

Some examples of the right's love for law enforcement:

- Randy Weaver and family
- Tim McVeigh
- Cliven Bundy
- Jerad and Amanda Miller
- Eric Frein
- Paul Ciancia
- Richard Poplawski

Now list all the Antifa murders of police officers.

As for right-leaning politicians, for all the lip service they give to law enforcement, they never seem to support gun control measures backed by police organizations, like the assault weapons ban of 2013, prohibitions on the sale of body armor and regulations on gun show sales.

[wadesworld]

Shocking that ners takes "defunding the police" to be "free for all to do whatever they want, throw out all rules and the enforcement of rules."

[tower912]

Tower, I respect the hell out of you, and this is a judgment free question.  Since the 25% cut, what have been the impacts on crime and law enforcement?  Has crime risen proportionately?

Negligible.    The hard work here was done in the 90's.    Crime rates ebb and flow as new generations of young and reckless rise up.  Some have more hope and less crime, some have less hope and more crime.    Crime here is generally kept within the same race and the same economic strata.     And there isn't less murder done out in the lily white outlying areas of the county.   It is generally of the domestic murder/suicide variety with the occasional shooting of an intruder thrown in for variety.   

I laugh at 'defunding' the police.    R's have been doing it in this state for 30 years.   

[Lennys Tap]

We’ve got a problem and the sooner we all realize it the better.

Frenns

Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.

So far, the one “solution” I have heard is a federal law outlawing choke holds. Huh?

I think being more rigorous about who gets into the police academy and how we police (fire?) those who get through the cracks would be a better idea. And if the unions insist on protecting the bullies and the racists then any benefit they do for their members is dwarfed by the harm they do to society. So there are my first two cracks at systemic change. I’d love to hear more.

[Uncle Rico]

Frenns

Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.

So far, the one “solution” I have heard is a federal law outlawing choke holds. Huh?

I think being more rigorous about who gets into the police academy and how we police (fire?) those who get through the cracks would be a better idea. And if the unions insist on protecting the bullies and the racists then any benefit they do for their members is dwarfed by the harm they do to society. So there are my first two cracks at systemic change. I’d love to hear more.

I think those are valid.  Any solution without tackling the union issue is going to be compromised. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Frenns

Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.

So far, the one “solution” I have heard is a federal law outlawing choke holds. Huh?

I think being more rigorous about who gets into the police academy and how we police (fire?) those who get through the cracks would be a better idea. And if the unions insist on protecting the bullies and the racists then any benefit they do for their members is dwarfed by the harm they do to society. So there are my first two cracks at systemic change. I’d love to hear more.

I think we need to address culture, the militarization of the police and their mandate (What we deem criminal and what we expect our police to address).  The items you identify are wrapped up in this too. 

Also I think I was raised in a period where the 60s were viewed as history and settled as an attempt to move on.  That was a huge mistake.  Everyone needs to learn in painful detail the full history of this country. 

[tower912]

Union= least of the problems.   Whatever.    You missed the part where I pointed out the problems that police academies are having recruiting qualified individuals.    And it is because of pressures from both sides.      Poor pay, long hours, understaffed,  pensions under fire from the right.    Distrust from the African American community on the left.     Why would the best and the finest want that when they can make more as an assistant manager at a Costco?

[Lennys Tap]

Union= least of the problems.   Whatever.    You missed the part where I pointed out the problems that police academies are having recruiting qualified individuals.    And it is because of pressures from both sides.      Poor pay, long hours, understaffed,  pensions under fire from the right.    Distrust from the African American community on the left.     Why would the best and the finest want that when they can make more as an assistant manager at a Costco?

Tower

I’ll never understand a system that protects a guy with a complaint sheet a mile long until he kills somebody. I just can’t see that as the least of our problems. But I’ll readily acknowledge that even with the help of collective bargaining our police force (at least the boots on the ground) are underpaid and under appreciated. Is systemic change possible to address both problems?

[tower912]

We agree on getting rid of officers with long histories of complaints.   I assume his department failed to follow their progressive discipline  procedures.  Possibly because of  statements by his co-workers to cast doubt on the worst of the accusations.  PD needs to stop their code of silence when it comes to inappropriate behavior. That is a culture issue.

There is this myth that unions can stop bad cops from getting fired.  There are always processes for that.  But the processes must be followed and that usually involves testimony from co-workers or incontrovertible audio or video evidence.   I know of several cops here who have been fired.  Some friends of mine.  One won his case for reinstatement, but didn't want to face his co-workers.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

We agree on getting rid of officers with long histories of complaints.   I assume his department failed to follow their progressive discipline  procedures.  Possibly because of  statements by his co-workers to cast doubt on the worst of the accusations.  PD needs to stop their code of silence when it comes to inappropriate behavior. That is a culture issue.

There is this myth that unions can stop bad cops from getting fired.  There are always processes for that.  But the processes must be followed and that usually involves testimony from co-workers or incontrovertible audio or video evidence.   I know of several cops here who have been fired.  Some friends of mine.  One won his case for reinstatement, but didn't want to face his co-workers.

There is a culture of protection that prevents good cops stopping bad cops.   That is all separate from comp and benefits — but it gives the institution a bad connotation in my opinion

[tower912]

Yes.

[GooooMarquette]

Frenns

Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.

Or in (perhaps under) the White House....

[Pakuni]

You're all making some fair points, but also skirting around the primary problem, which is a cultural one. Law enforcement culture, to be exact.
Too many police officers look down upon the communities they serve, view other citizens antagonistically and work in an environment that too often accepts and even encourages negative interactions.
That's not because of a few bad apples sneaking through the academy or a handful of bad cops being protected by a union. That's the environment in which cops are trained and operate. To their credit, the great majority of cops work in this environment and still do their jobs honorably.
But what happened to George Floyd didn't occur because he was unlucky enough to run into four bad apples all at the same time. Derek Chauvin didn't put on his uniform May 25 planning to kill someone. But somewhere along the way he learned that it is acceptable to restrain a person by kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. The three other cops assisted, rather than intervene on Floyd's behalf, because they learned it was acceptable as well. At any point in that video does it appear that the cops believe they're doing anything wrong? And they did it because they viewed George Floyd as someone worthy of their contempt. Someone lesser. Not a fellow citizen with equal standing, but someone to be dominated with a knee to the neck.

The issues you're all raising are legit and worthy of attention. But fixing the problem is going to take a change in the way we view law enforcement, and the way law enforcement views us. I wish I knew exactly how we do that. I think there are some promising ideas out there, like what's been done in Camden, but I'm not sure that's realistic everywhere. I wish I had better ideas and solutions, but all I know is the problem runs far deeper than some bad cops being protected by the union.

[Lennys Tap]

We agree on getting rid of officers with long histories of complaints.   I assume his department failed to follow their progressive discipline  procedures.  Possibly because of  statements by his co-workers to cast doubt on the worst of the accusations.  PD needs to stop their code of silence when it comes to inappropriate behavior. That is a culture issue.

There is this myth that unions can stop bad cops from getting fired.  There are always processes for that.  But the processes must be followed and that usually involves testimony from co-workers or incontrovertible audio or video evidence.   I know of several cops here who have been fired.  Some friends of mine.  One won his case for reinstatement, but didn't want to face his co-workers.

I’m sure it’s not impossible for bad cops to get fired. And I certainly respect your experiences in these matters. But it’s hard for me to believe that the “processes” that have to be satisfied for removal aren’t awfully difficult to overcome, especially when rank and file won’t (are instructed not to?) cooperate. I don’t know if it’s true, but I read somewhere (sorry I don’t know where) that the police outside the courthouse cheering the two Buffalo cops who shoved the 75 year old man down were there on orders from their union. How much the unions are or aren’t involved, there are big problems in our police departments.