Protests

[MU82]

Apparently legal scholars are as well "buying it", most of them also Democrats.  Not hard core leftists like some in this thread, but there are many of us that are moderate Democrats which irks the hard liners.  Moderates will save this country, not the hard right or the hard left.  Some day people will come to their senses.

Those with moderate political views don't support President Pandemic at every turn, hoopaloop.

George Effen Will, a lifelong conservative Republican who just came out and said that Trump and all of his GOP enablers in Congress need to be voted out in November, is more moderate than you have demonstrated to be in the hundreds of posts you've made since the day after the previous incarnation of hoopaloop got banned.

But at least you're good for a laugh. You do realize that not a single Scooper from "either side" takes your hoopaloopin' seriously, right? Keep 'em coming, though! We need the levity during these dark times.

[Pakuni]

Apparently legal scholars are as well "buying it", most of them also Democrats.  Not hard core leftists like some in this thread, but there are many of us that are moderate Democrats which irks the hard liners.  Moderates will save this country, not the hard right or the hard left.  Some day people will come to their senses.

500 law professors.

[GooooMarquette]

Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.

Solid post, Eng. There is a big difference between doing something based on statutory language and past examples (precedent), vs doing something novel based solely on a claim of authority.

In judicial language, Trump's proposed action would create a "case of first impression" for SCOTUS.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.

This addresses the ‘can we’ question perfectly.  The ‘should we’ question is at least equally important. The fact we are discussing it should trouble all of us.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

500 law professors.

I shouldn't have been in the middle of drinking water while reading this.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Scott Walker (R-Marquette Dropout) is still a dipsh!t):

https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1267639017073410048
Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this:
@realDonaldTrump

Go for the tweet, stay for the replies. Even Lev & Igor weighed in. Also:

The Hoarse Whisperer

@HoarseWisperer

Replying to @ScottWalker @POTUS and @realDonaldTrump
He teargassed some priests and crossed a street.

He didn’t land at Normandy, jackass.

[Pakuni]

Scott Walker (R-Marquette Dropout) is still a dipsh!t):

https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1267639017073410048
Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this:
@realDonaldTrump

Go for the tweet, stay for the replies. Even Lev & Igor weighed in. Also:

The Hoarse Whisperer

@HoarseWisperer

Replying to @ScottWalker @POTUS and @realDonaldTrump
He teargassed some priests and crossed a street.

He didn’t land at Normandy, jackass.

Doing his Marquette education proud.

[Warriors4ever]

The replies were epic.
So wanted to see a pic of Jed Bartlet marching to Congress.

[Jockey]

Scott Walker (R-Marquette Dropout) is still a dipsh!t):

https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1267639017073410048
Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this:
@realDonaldTrump

Go for the tweet, stay for the replies. Even Lev & Igor weighed in. Also:

The Hoarse Whisperer

@HoarseWisperer

Replying to @ScottWalker @POTUS and @realDonaldTrump
He teargassed some priests and crossed a street.

He didn’t land at Normandy, jackass.

Where were those “guts” when he was drafted?

[tower912]

Pope John Paul II as photo op...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/06/02/trump-catholic-shrine-church-bible-protesters/

Glad to see POTUS reaching out to lots of different religious traditions right now.   

[jesmu84]

Crazy stuff in Indy last night.

The largest protest gathered downtown then marched 40+ blocks to the governor's mansion north. LOTS of Indy and state police met them there. Peaceful chanting/protest. Then, 30 minutes of discussion between police leaders and protest leaders.

Result? Hugging and disarming of some police followed by police walking several blocks with them back toward downtown.

The protestors were out past the 8pm curfew. But quickly most were gone by 9 or 10pm.

Beautiful. Sure, the police could have started arresting for being out past curfew, but sure glad they didn't

A few things later on found on reddit and twitter:

1. Apparently there have been multiple fake twitter accounts such as "Indy BLM" trying to incite fake meetups and fake rumors about police instigated violence.

2. Many comments on reddit calling the whole thing "copraganda." Things like the cops don't really care, it's just PR, they'll shoot more protestors tomorrow, etc, etc.

My question - for those with perspectives like #2... What kind of grand/instant compromise or city/state change do you expect to happen at 9pm on a Monday in the heat of the moment? Isn't a small step forward a good thing towards working to real change?

[Warriors4ever]

https://adw.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/06/060220-ADW-Press-Release.pdf

The Archbishop of DC is not happy with Trump and the Knights of Columbus.
According to the National Catholic Reporter, the head of the Knights once worked for Jesse Helms.

[JWags85]

2. Many comments on reddit calling the whole thing "copraganda." Things like the cops don't really care, it's just PR, they'll shoot more protestors tomorrow, etc, etc.

My question - for those with perspectives like #2... What kind of grand/instant compromise or city/state change do you expect to happen at 9pm on a Monday in the heat of the moment? Isn't a small step forward a good thing towards working to real change?

I’ve seen a lot of that response over the last few days. Even in response to the video out of Michigan, to the scene in Ft Worth, etc.. and it’s profoundly depressing. There are plenty of instances of bad cops, racist cops, and there are plenty of cops on a power trip beyond racist intent (see the countless times minority suspects are beaten by other minority officers. But this idea that they are all evil, that they can’t have humanity here that isn’t some underhanded propaganda motive, etc... Do they just want no police? What’s their idealistic alternative?

My biggest takeaway from this, which again is only in theory cause I like practical ideas and experience, is community outreach needs to be HEAVILY emphasized, funded, prioritized.  The more people have positive interactions with the police, the more some of the two way bridging can take place. Cause weeding out bad cops is only the first step. Much like people have ill informed opinions of African Americans, LGBT people, foreigners, etc... until they actually meet befriend one and suddenly a demographic stereotype is replaced with an actual fellow human. FAR FAR easier said than done, but it’s all I got right now

[jesmu84]

https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?s=20

Research-based solutions to decreasing police violence.

[WarriorDad]

Those with moderate political views don't support President Pandemic at every turn, hoopaloop.

George Effen Will, a lifelong conservative Republican who just came out and said that Trump and all of his GOP enablers in Congress need to be voted out in November, is more moderate than you have demonstrated to be in the hundreds of posts you've made since the day after the previous incarnation of hoopaloop got banned.

But at least you're good for a laugh. You do realize that not a single Scooper from "either side" takes your hoopaloopin' seriously, right? Keep 'em coming, though! We need the levity during these dark times.

At every turn?  I'm not sure it is even 10% of what he does I support, and certainly not at every turn.  I supported his travel ban to China.  I believe we should be working hard to reopen the economy where it makes sense.  His changes to prison incarcerations was applauded by nearly everyone and should have been done by the previous administration.   Beyond that, where am I supporting him?  He is against what Sweden is doing, but I find it courageous and worth the risk.  Overall his leadership with COVID has been dismal.  I can say the same thing about governors and mayors, but when I do so you are upset that I'm not fully on board the team with blinders on.  That's not how it works for me.

Good for George Will, I enjoy his baseball knowledge. 

I'm sorry you have been conned by people here to think I am someone else, but a handful of you sure have.  It goes in waves.  I must have seen at least 10 people accused of being others here in the last few months. 

[WarriorDad]

In all prior invocations of the Insurrection Act, it's been done at either the request of the states (i.e. LA riots) or because the states were actively suppressing constitutional rights (i.e. Little Rock).
Neither is occurring here.

Do the troops need to be requested?  Not necessarily, says NPR article.

As to whether a state must request the presence of those military forces in the state, that's "not necessarily" the case, according to experts.

A section of the law (§251) says (emphasis ours):

"[T]he President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia."

But the next section (§252) says:

"Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion."

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867467714/what-is-the-insurrection-act-that-trump-is-threatening-to-invoke

https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1266752512373243904

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a494995.pdf

[MUBurrow]

I’ve seen a lot of that response over the last few days. Even in response to the video out of Michigan, to the scene in Ft Worth, etc.. and it’s profoundly depressing. There are plenty of instances of bad cops, racist cops, and there are plenty of cops on a power trip beyond racist intent (see the countless times minority suspects are beaten by other minority officers. But this idea that they are all evil, that they can’t have humanity here that isn’t some underhanded propaganda motive, etc... Do they just want no police? What’s their idealistic alternative?

This puts too much emphasis on individual bad actors and doesn't give enough screentime to the effects of the broken system. In our hurry to point out good cops, we're too quick to say "that cop did that bad thing so is a bad cop, but we have no reason to believe the others aren't all good."  But this system that leans on the political power of police unions, qualified immunity for bad acts, and criminal justice laws that have legitimized most any search and seizure if it can turn up an infraction have absolutely devastated the relationship between law enforcement and the black community. 

A part of the answer here that would not make anyone happy but is probably necessary to turning this around is to increase officer compensation in exchange for increasing oversight as contracts are negotiated with police unions.  Right now, the script is flipped.  Cops don't make any money, but its damn hard for them to get in trouble until they are on camera killing a guy (and even then). So your candidate pool gets shallower while the cover for their bad acts increases - and then you're attracting as many candidates for the wrong reasons as the right ones.  That culture seeps into the entire force, which turns into a positive feedback loop of terrible relations with the communities they are policing, and next thing you know, here we are.

[MU82]

At every turn?  I'm not sure it is even 10% of what he does I support, and certainly not at every turn.  I supported his travel ban to China.  I believe we should be working hard to reopen the economy where it makes sense.  His changes to prison incarcerations was applauded by nearly everyone and should have been done by the previous administration.   Beyond that, where am I supporting him?  He is against what Sweden is doing, but I find it courageous and worth the risk.  Overall his leadership with COVID has been dismal.  I can say the same thing about governors and mayors, but when I do so you are upset that I'm not fully on board the team with blinders on.  That's not how it works for me.

Good for George Will, I enjoy his baseball knowledge. 

I'm sorry you have been conned by people here to think I am someone else, but a handful of you sure have.  It goes in waves.  I must have seen at least 10 people accused of being others here in the last few months.

Okey dokey, hoopy troll. Enjoy your emperor, President Tear Gas.

[Pakuni]

Do the troops need to be requested?  Not necessarily, says NPR article.

As to whether a state must request the presence of those military forces in the state, that's "not necessarily" the case, according to experts.

A section of the law (§251) says (emphasis ours):

"[T]he President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia."

But the next section (§252) says:

"Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion."

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867467714/what-is-the-insurrection-act-that-trump-is-threatening-to-invoke

https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1266752512373243904

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a494995.pdf

Fantastic use of Google, Cheeks, but nothing you pasted or linked her contradicts what I wrote.

[JWags85]

This puts too much emphasis on individual bad actors and doesn't give enough screentime to the effects of the broken system. In our hurry to point out good cops, we're too quick to say "that cop did that bad thing so is a bad cop, but we have no reason to believe the others aren't all good."  But this system that leans on the political power of police unions, qualified immunity for bad acts, and criminal justice laws that have legitimized most any search and seizure if it can turn up an infraction have absolutely devastated the relationship between law enforcement and the black community. 

I disagree with the first portion.  I dont think its carte blanche for all "non bad actors", but rather highlighting how nuanced and difficult this can be to parse out.  There are bad cops, there are good cops, and there are cops who grapple with the difficulty of the job and the pressures of the peer group.  Broad brush painting is a way for nothing to get done in this space.  This isn't meant to be all Blue Lives Matter, but acknowledging there is still good in the system, among all the cancer and toxicity, is needed to try and change how it works.

I have no issue with the latter portion though.

A part of the answer here that would not make anyone happy but is probably necessary to turning this around is to increase officer compensation in exchange for increasing oversight as contracts are negotiated with police unions.  Right now, the script is flipped.  Cops don't make any money, but its damn hard for them to get in trouble until they are on camera killing a guy (and even then). So your candidate pool gets shallower while the cover for their bad acts increases - and then you're attracting as many candidates for the wrong reasons as the right ones.  That culture seeps into the entire force, which turns into a positive feedback loop of terrible relations with the communities they are policing, and next thing you know, here we are.

This is patently untrue when looking at major metros that have been in question.  By their late 20s, NYPD officers are making mid 80s as a base.  CPD in the mid to high 70s.  Milwaukee a bit lower but not much.  Excellent benefits.  Thats not counting overtime.  There have been stories in both Chicago and NYC over the last 5 years about how many officers end up clearing 6 figures when all is said and done.  They arent hedge funders, but they make more than acceptable incomes.  These aren't lowly public servants making peanuts.

[rocky_warrior]

Okey dokey, hoopy troll. Enjoy your emperor, President Tear Gas.

Fantastic use of Google, Cheeks, but nothing you pasted or linked her contradicts what I wrote.

Don't feed the troll.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Yep. There is tons on here.

[WarriorDad]

Las Vegas cop in critical condition as he was shot in the back of his head today.  A retired police chief was killed yesterday in St. Louis.  An African American with 38 years on the job, retired as a captain and then named chief of police of Moline Acres. 

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html


Mr. Floyd would not have wanted this.

[WarriorDad]

Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.

As the legal scholars have said throughout today, he has the power.  If he chose to do it and Congress stepped in, the likely actions to stop him would be after his desired effect.   I don't support the move, but legal scholars are not supporting the opinions here.  As for precedent, the Insurrection Act has been used at least 12 times and a governor does not need to ask permission for the President to do this on his own. The text is clear.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Las Vegas cop in critical condition as he was shot in the back of his head today.  A retired police chief was killed yesterday in St. Louis.  An African American with 38 years on the job, retired as a captain and then named chief of police of Moline Acres. 

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html


Mr. Floyd would not have wanted this.

No sh*t