Is this fair?

[muwarrior69]

There were three major DCLs pertaining to Title IX during the Obama administration:

The first was in 2010 and interpreted what responsibilities a school has to responding to bullying and harassment. This was mostly targeted at primary and secondary education but also applies to higher education. It separated gender based and sexual harassment but clarified that they were both covered by Title IX. Gender based discrimination is essentially a form of sex discrimination because someone is being discriminated against because their gender does not match their sex. It also set up some requirements for primary and secondary education to do training on bullying prevention.It also had some implications for Title VI (Race discrimination).

The second was in 2011 and is the most famous. This is the one that set up clearer and much higher expectations for responding to sex discrimination, specifically sexual assault/harassment, dating/domestic violence, and stalking. This is where the requirements for due process, accommodations, standard of proof, all came from.

The final was in 2016 which clarified that transgender status was considered part of gender identity, therefore was covered by Title IX. It went further to establish some guidelines, most notably designating that students must be allowed to use facilities that pertain to their gender identity, not their sex (i.e. restrooms, locker rooms, dorms, single sex clubs like fraternities and sororities, etc). This was especially fun at the time given what was going on in North Carolina. Schools there were between a rock and a hard place.

The 2017 DCL, was mostly to walk back the 2016 DCL. However it stopped short of saying that transgender status wasn't covered by Title IX. So basically, it kept the letter but got rid of the guidelines, giving schools more time and flexibility to figure out how to accommodate their transgender students. I wasn't necessarily against this move because the 2016 letter put a lot of new requirements in and I wasn't confident that all schools would be able to make the adjustments in a feasible way. So I liked the guidelines from 2016 but appreciated that 2017 gave us more time and flexibility to figure it out. I would not be surprised if (and hope that) another letter comes out in the future the brings back the guidelines of 2016 now that schools have had a little more time to prepare.

How does this work when a University is assigning dorm rooms? Do both students mutually agree or is it, surprise, I am your transgendered room mate.

[#UnleashSean]

There were three major DCLs pertaining to Title IX during the Obama administration:


 This is where the requirements for due process, accommodations, standard of proof, all came from.

Don't you mean -> No due process, Expel student based on word on word, Standard of proof is zero. Cause let me tell you, that 2011 change has quite a bit of harm to multiple students as much as it has helped others.

[jsglow]

How does this work when a University is assigning dorm rooms? Do both students mutually agree or is it, surprise, I am your transgendered room mate.

I think 69 raises a really great point.  I don't consider myself to be a Neanderthal but with TODAY being the day that room assignments go out at MU I'd struggle as a dad on this one.

[GGGG]

https://www.usa.gov/branches-of-government

Thanks for the third grade civics lesson.  Adults realize how the world works.

[GGGG]

This is where you said "It's just high school sports" - seemed like "no big deal" was implied. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Where did you get the idea that I would say that to my daughter at that point in time?

[Galway Eagle]

I think 69 raises a really great point.  I don't consider myself to be a Neanderthal but with TODAY being the day that room assignments go out at MU I'd struggle as a dad on this one.

I could see that as an issue but if you daughter was rooming with a guy transitioning to girl then the next step would be to wonder their sexual orientation. If the individual like men then what's the issue? If the individual likes girls then I could see how you might be concerned however then what is the difference between that and a daughter living with a lesbian roommate?

[Pakuni]

No woman in the WNBA would even make a division 1 College mens team.

Not even DePaul?

[hairy worthen]

Bro, as dominant as Brittany Griner was, she wouldn't even sniff the 14th spot on the worst D-League roster.
[/quote]
Griner and sniff should never be used in the same sentence.

[reinko]

What do you think has it worse?  An athletically gifted kid that comes in second in the state because of a transgender competitor, or a kid who has felt their entire life like they don't belong in their own body who is continually bullied and rejected when they try to be the person they believe they really are?

100% this, well said WC

[Jay Bee]

What do you think has it worse?  An athletically gifted kid that comes in second in the state because of a transgender competitor, or a kid who has felt their entire life like they don't belong in their own body who is continually bullied and rejected when they try to be the person they believe they really are?

They way to address someone who has bad feelings about themselves and has been bullied is not to allow them to play in competition of the opposite sex. Plenty of other ways to address it.

But hey.. whatever rules you want to make go ahead. Please just don't call it "girls" and "boys" sports if you do. It's "feel likes a girl" and "feels like a guy" sports. Bizarre.

[muwarrior69]

I think 69 raises a really great point.  I don't consider myself to be a Neanderthal but with TODAY being the day that room assignments go out at MU I'd struggle as a dad on this one.

Does the University even know?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How does this work when a University is assigning dorm rooms? Do both students mutually agree or is it, surprise, I am your transgendered room mate.

I think 69 raises a really great point.  I don't consider myself to be a Neanderthal but with TODAY being the day that room assignments go out at MU I'd struggle as a dad on this one.

I understand why people are uncomfortable with the idea of their son or daughter living with someone who was born the opposite sex. In the society we grew up in, its a normal concern. People with penises and vaginas don't live together unless they are romantically involved. That's what we were raised with. My question to your discomfort would be why? What are you concerned will happen if your son lives with a transgender man or if your daughter lives with a transgender woman?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Don't you mean -> No due process, Expel student based on word on word, Standard of proof is zero. Cause let me tell you, that 2011 change has quite a bit of harm to multiple students as much as it has helped others.

Well actually working in Title IX compliance I can tell you have a very warped view of the reality. Students accused of sexual assault have more due process than students accused of any other crime and use the same standard of proof. What people don't agree with is the definition of sexual assault and those justly found responsible often can't come to terms with the reality that they did a terrible thing and need to be held accountable for it. I am sure there are a few isolated cases where students unjustly found responsible, which is regrettable...but it happens with every crime and in the legal system as well. We should work to prevent it from happening but no conduct system is ever going to be perfect. The only way to make 100% sure an innocent man never goes to prison is to never send anyone to prison.

[Jockey]

I think 69 raises a really great point.  I don't consider myself to be a Neanderthal but with TODAY being the day that room assignments go out at MU I'd struggle as a dad on this one.

Interesting post, glow.

I think as parents we always have some trepidation about our kids going into a situation like that - venturing into the unknown. On the other hand, we should want our kids to experience things in college that may be out of our (and possibly their) comfort zone. Having known two trans people, all I can say is that your son/daughter would quickly find out how many similarities they have rather than the other way around.

Some in our society work very, very hard to emphasise our differences and to separate us from those that we feel are not like us. In reality, we are all human beings who search for the same things.

[Eldon]

Wow, 5 pages strong and this is still relatively civil.

Well done, Scoopers.  Well done.

[mu03eng]

I could see that as an issue but if you daughter was rooming with a guy transitioning to girl then the next step would be to wonder their sexual orientation. If the individual like men then what's the issue? If the individual likes girls then I could see how you might be concerned however then what is the difference between that and a daughter living with a lesbian roommate?

There isn't, which is why selection based on orientation isn't an option and neither should sex or gender. As a society I think we should strive to go genderless is shared spaces (like restrooms, dorms, etc) However this point is really about cultural norms whereas sports is about competitive environment.

So dorm assignments is cultural whereas sports is competitive/opportunity

[jsglow]

I could see that as an issue but if you daughter was rooming with a guy transitioning to girl then the next step would be to wonder their sexual orientation. If the individual like men then what's the issue? If the individual likes girls then I could see how you might be concerned however then what is the difference between that and a daughter living with a lesbian roommate?

You raise a good point.  I guess like everything, it comes down to character.  As I've mentioned, I've got gay friends and it never crosses my mind at all.  Similarly, both chick and I have friends of the opposite sex.  As long as one has strong boundaries, then there's no problem at all, right?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There isn't, which is why selection based on orientation isn't an option and neither should sex or gender. As a society I think we should strive to go genderless is shared spaces (like restrooms, dorms, etc) However this point is really about cultural norms whereas sports is about competitive environment.

So dorm assignments is cultural whereas sports is competitive/opportunity

Agreed.

[jsglow]

I understand why people are uncomfortable with the idea of their son or daughter living with someone who was born the opposite sex. In the society we grew up in, its a normal concern. People with penises and vaginas don't live together unless they are romantically involved. That's what we were raised with. My question to your discomfort would be why? What are you concerned will happen if your son lives with a transgender man or if your daughter lives with a transgender woman?

Okay, just asking (and teasing) here bro as the newlywed on the board.  Trust the newly minted Mrs. TAMU ended up with the proper Chevy small block with the correct serial numbers when you lifted the hood!  

I love scoop!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I could see that as an issue but if you daughter was rooming with a guy transitioning to girl then the next step would be to wonder their sexual orientation. If the individual like men then what's the issue? If the individual likes girls then I could see how you might be concerned however then what is the difference between that and a daughter living with a lesbian roommate?

I think you are right that a lot of people's concern is actually about sexual orientation. In reality, I think its a non-issue unless one of the roommates is going to take advantage of the other...which I wouldn't assume that of anyone and if it does happen they should be held accountable and removed.

But I think a lot of it also come from cultural norms. We just didn't grow up with people of different sexes interacting like that. I've been to a couple of conferences for work where they had gender neutral bathrooms as an option. I consider myself pretty #woke, but even I had some feelings of discomfort and even panic when I walked in and there were women in the bathroom. My first thought was "holy sh*t its a trap I need to get out." But if you stop and think about it, there really is no good reason to separate bathrooms. Hell, I get more privacy in gender neutral bathrooms because there are stalls and no urinals (at least in the ones I've seen). By the end of the conference, I was used to it. It didn't feel weird.

I do also want to acknowledge that there are those with religious beliefs who would say its just not appropriate for a woman and man to live together before marriage. If someone has that religious belief, I do think it is important that it is respected. So if our society does move towards genderless spaces, I think we need to have options for those who can't or won't buy in.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Okay, just asking (and teasing) here bro as the newlywed on the board.  Trust the newly minted Mrs. TAMU ended up with the proper Chevy small block with the correct serial numbers when you lifted the hood!  

I love scoop!

Scoop is hell. But its our little corner of hell. And I love it so!

Wow, 5 pages strong and this is still relatively civil.

Well done, Scoopers.  Well done.

Agreed. I appreciate the conversation

[muwarrior69]

When I was at Marquette I worked in the housing assignment office as an administrative assistant. I not once, but twice, had a parent call to tell me that their child had a non-white roommate and needed to be moved. My response to your question is the same as my response was to them.

I understand why people are uncomfortable with the idea of their son or daughter living with someone who was born the opposite sex. In the society we grew up in, its a normal concern. Just like I'm sure the two parents who called me about their child's non-white roommate grew up in a society where that was a normal concern. People with penises and vaginas don't live together unless they are romantically involved. That's what we were raised with. My question to your discomfort would be why? What are you concerned will happen if your son lives with a transgender man or if your daughter lives with a transgender woman?

Because at a Catholic University I would expect people with penises and vaginas would not live together. I am sure many parents would ask that their child's room be reassigned at MU if their room mate was of the opposite sex. It seem that the discomfort of the transgendered student is being accommodated by force of law but the discomfort of the non transgendered student is being ignored and even questioned as being unreasonable. Would MU be in violation of Title IX if they accommodated the non-trangendered student with different living quarters if they so wished? I cannot imagine there would be many cases of this as compared to your example of race which I don't find even comparable.

[GGGG]

Because at a Catholic University I would expect people with penises and vaginas would not live together. I am sure many parents would ask that their child's room be reassigned at MU if their room mate was of the opposite sex. It seem that the discomfort of the transgendered student is being accommodated by force of law but the discomfort of the non transgendered student is being ignored and even questioned as being unreasonable. Would MU be in violation of Title IX if they accommodated the non-trangendered student with different living quarters if they so wished? I cannot imagine there would be many cases of this as compared to your example of race which I don't find even comparable.

So it's all about the genitals?  So if you had a son assigned to a transgendered male roommate, as long as they had the assignment surgery you would be fine, but at any point prior to that you would be opposed?

Would your son feel the same way?

[muwarrior69]

So it's all about the genitals?  So if you had a son assigned to a transgendered male roommate, as long as they had the assignment surgery you would be fine, but at any point prior to that you would be opposed?

Would your son feel the same way?

Its what I would expect at a University claiming to be Catholic.

[StillAWarrior]

There isn't, which is why selection based on orientation isn't an option and neither should sex or gender. As a society I think we should strive to go genderless is shared spaces (like restrooms, dorms, etc) However this point is really about cultural norms whereas sports is about competitive environment.

So dorm assignments is cultural whereas sports is competitive/opportunity

I'm curious...when you refer to gender less in shared spaces and reference dorms, are you referring to individual dorm rooms?  I think that would be pushing the limits of the definition of shared spaces.

I suppose that we can say that all should aspire to get over personal hang-ups about sex and gender - I'm not sure that I agree, but it's a legitimate debate - but where does individual comfort come into play?  I'm sending a daughter off to college in the fall. I'll admit I would have issues if she was asked to room with a biological male.  Perhaps that's narrow minded of me, but it's true.  What's more, I can assure you she would also feel uncomfortable with that. For those who think it should be a non-issue, where does her comfort level come into play?  Or do we just conclude that she needs to me more open minded and accepting?