Michigan State President Forced Out Over Gymnastic Doctor Scandal

[Tugg Speedman]

Forced out for allowing this sexual abuser to stay in the employ of Michicagn State University for many years. 

He abused 140 girls.  The complaints were there, the warning signs were there.  MSU either did not care or intentionally looked the other way. Frankly everyone in MSU leadership and USA Gymnastics should all go.

Interesting to note the President of MSU is a woman ... Lou Anna Simon.

Michigan State president resigns over Nassar scandal
https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/24/us/michigan-state-president-resigns/index.html

In the wake of the Larry Nassar sexual abuse scandal, Lou Anna Simon, president of Michigan State University, is resigning, according to a letter posted on the school's website.

Nassar is a former longtime school employee. He was sentenced Wednesday to up to 175 years in prison for the sexual assault of young female athletes.

"Throughout my career, I have consistently and persistently spoken and worked on behalf of Team MSU. I have tried to make it not about me," Simon wrote. "I urge those who have supported my work to understand that I cannot make it about me now. Therefore, I am tendering my resignation as president according to the terms of my employment agreement."
The chairman of the board of trustees said the group had accepted Simon's resignation, and will work out the details of her departure over the rest of the week.

[tower912]

It was inevitable.   Nassar's sentencing was done.  Officials with USA gymnastics have also resigned.  There will probably be more.

[Mr. Nielsen]

One of the biggest AD's at Michigan State, Mark Hollis steps down.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/michigan-state/spartans/2018/01/26/michigan-state-university-mark-hollis-resigns/1068989001/

[GGGG]

I'm so flippin' tired of people who make a lot of money, and who are in positions of power, to feel it is completely fine to try to claim ignorance when the organizations they lead systematically fail.  F*ck them both.  The culture they created allowed this to happen.

And f*ck Tom Izzo too with his lame a$$ comments earlier this week as well.

[mu03eng]

I'm so flippin' tired of people who make a lot of money, and who are in positions of power, to feel it is completely fine to try to claim ignorance when the organizations they lead systematically fail.  F*ck them both.  The culture they created allowed this to happen.

And f*ck Tom Izzo too with his lame a$$ comments earlier this week as well.

First, couldn't agree more.


Second....the second saddest thing in this mess(behind the evil visited on these girls) is that there is evidence that MSU/USA Gymnastics officials had received numerous complaints before and during the time of the PSU-Sandusky scandal. How do you sit back and what that $hitshow go down knowing what you do about Nassar and go....naw we good??????

[tower912]

IOC ordering USA gymnastics board to step down. 

[GGGG]

Wow.  This could get A LOT bigger...

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

[GooooMarquette]

I'm so flippin' tired of people who make a lot of money, and who are in positions of power, to feel it is completely fine to try to claim ignorance when the organizations they lead systematically fail.  F*ck them both.  The culture they created allowed this to happen.

And f*ck Tom Izzo too with his lame a$$ comments earlier this week as well.

Absolutely.  As long as the team is winning or the stock price is rising, nothing else seems to matter.

The culture of "anything for a win/buck" needs to change.

[GGGG]

Wow.  This could get A LOT bigger...

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

I mean, Mark Dantonio could be out of a job in a couple weeks.  Izzo is likely going to survive, but wow.

[GooooMarquette]

Wow.  This could get A LOT bigger...

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

Wow indeed.  No way Dantonio survives this.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm so flippin' tired of people who make a lot of money, and who are in positions of power, to feel it is completely fine to try to claim ignorance when the organizations they lead systematically fail.  F*ck them both.  The culture they created allowed this to happen.

And f*ck Tom Izzo too with his lame a$$ comments earlier this week as well.

Amen Sultan, you are my new hero!!!

[DegenerateDish]

If I had to guess, Izzo will "retire" at the conclusion of this season.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wow.  This could get A LOT bigger...

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

It's a dirty little secret in higher education that some universities setup separate conduct processes for student athletes. You'll often find title ix offices are housed in athletic departments for this very purpose. I will never work for a title ix office that reports to an athletic director. I'm sure most are great people who follow the law,  but there is just too much opportunity for abuse.

[Galway Eagle]

Dayummmm

[PGsHeroes32]

I mean, Mark Dantonio could be out of a job in a couple weeks.  Izzo is likely going to survive, but wow.

Izzo is done

[jesmu84]

You all are going to really believe all these "investigative journalists"? I was under the impression that media is merely fake news out to smear good people across the nation.

[Skitch]

Crean to MSU

[Jockey]

Wow indeed.  No way Dantonio survives this.

Lowlifes like Izzo, D'Antontio, and DeVos need to be shown the door. Now!

[🏀]

Izzo to retire.

Wojo reaching out to Tillman and Winston, hopefully.

[MUBBau]

Dantonio will disappear

[Galway Eagle]

Izzo to retire.

Wojo reaching out to Tillman and Winston, hopefully.

Conflicting reports on that

[GGGG]

Izzo to retire.

Wojo reaching out to Tillman and Winston, hopefully.

Probably going to help with recruits like Rocket Watts.

[mu03eng]

Dantonio and Izzo should both be fired like Paterno was if the ESPN report is true

[reinko]

Izzo to retire.

Wojo reaching out to Tillman and Winston, hopefully.

Fake WoJo (ESPN WoJo, not our WoJo) account that flew around the interwebs earlier today.

PTM eats the trash!

[DegenerateDish]

If Izzo where to leave, and I realize it all depends on new AD/Prez, but I could envision Woj as a candidate there, if these dominos fall.

[Herman Cain]

Michigan State was so eager to be a player at the Elite level that it was willing to compromise basic morality.  The Hollis resignation demonstrates that the Nassar incident was  the tip of the iceberg as far as bad acts go. It was an open secret in East Lansing that the student athlete bad behavior was being swept under the rug. This has been the case there for many decades.  Dantonio and Izzo are on thin ice. 

[GGGG]

https://deadspin.com/betsy-devos-rolled-back-title-ix-protections-two-days-a-1822462475

[Pakuni]

If Izzo where to leave, and I realize it all depends on new AD/Prez, but I could envision Woj as a candidate there, if these dominos fall.

Nothing against Wojo, but I suspect they'll aim way higher.
Think Chris Mack, Tony Bennett, Mark Few, Gregg Marshall.

[GGGG]

Nothing against Wojo, but I suspect they'll aim way higher.
Think Chris Mack, Tony Bennett, Mark Few, Gregg Marshall.

Replacing Izzo would be very difficult. Could there be sanctions because of this?  I think some would steer well clear of that job.

[LAZER]

Replacing Izzo would be very difficult. Could there be sanctions because of this?  I think some would steer well clear of that job.

President and AD situation will be interesting too. I think most big names would stay away, but they’d still get some good candidates.

[🏀]

Fake WoJo (ESPN WoJo, not our WoJo) account that flew around the interwebs earlier today.

PTM eats the trash!

That's why they call me Oscar.

[#UnleashSean]

IOC ordering USA gymnastics board to step down.

One curropt group telling another curropt group to step down. This'll be good.

[jesmu84]

Head of NCAA involved now....

https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/report-mark-emmert-was-personally-told-about-37-thirty-seven-michigan-state-sexual-assaults-in-2010-and-did-nothing-about-it

[GooooMarquette]

Replacing Izzo would be very difficult. Could there be sanctions because of this?  I think some would steer well clear of that job.

They should...but MSU is a high-profile program, kinda like IU in the wake of Sampson.

[Tugg Speedman]

If Izzo where to leave, and I realize it all depends on new AD/Prez, but I could envision Woj as a candidate there, if these dominos fall.

But its no longer Michigan State.  It is "broken" Michigan State, with everyone gone and massive transfers.  It might be looking at severe NCAA penalties because its athletic department was involved (the NCAA set the precedent with Sandusky).

So it is not a broken team, it is a broken school.  Every team is broken. 

That is a mess that I would not want to touch.

[Pakuni]

But its no longer Michigan State.  It is "broken" Michigan State, with everyone gone and massive transfers.  It might be looking at severe NCAA penalties because its athletic department was involved (the NCAA set the precedent with Sandusky).

So it is not a broken team, it is a broken school.  Every team is broken. 

That is a mess that I would not want to touch.

The same, and much much worse, was said of Penn State in 2011.
Last two years? Top 10 finishes and appearances in major bowls.

[Tugg Speedman]

The same, and much much worse, was said of Penn State in 2011.
Last two years? Top 10 finishes and appearances in major bowls.

But it was only football at PSU.  At MSU it was the entire school.

[LAZER]

But it was only football at PSU.  At MSU it was the entire school.

Well we’re comparing PSU football and MSU basketball and the admin at PSU was definitely caught up in the whole thing, so they’re actually pretty comparable.

[Tugg Speedman]

We’re speculating that the MSU scandal is so big or takes out dantantio and izzo.  I assume if that happens that other coaches at MSU are at risk for the same reasons, if not all of them.

At PSU it was football and top admin, the basketball coach did not lose his job because of Sandusky.

[Tugg Speedman]

If Izzo where to leave, and I realize it all depends on new AD/Prez, but I could envision Woj as a candidate there, if these dominos fall.

Then Izzo to MU

[rocket surgeon]

Izzo- umm, said more or less that  he’s gonna deal with the survivors and a lot of the things that happened today are part of life, well,sot of...?  Wow was he at a loss for words or what.  His attorney just bumped his fee

[GGGG]

It's a dirty little secret in higher education that some universities setup separate conduct processes for student athletes. You'll often find title ix offices are housed in athletic departments for this very purpose. I will never work for a title ix office that reports to an athletic director. I'm sure most are great people who follow the law,  but there is just too much opportunity for abuse.

TAMU, this is crap that has to stop.  Universities need to stop treating athletics like subsidiaries who are allowed to run their own business.  I mean, I've never really cared all that much about the wink and a nod benefits that student athletes get because I think amateurism is a sham, but when you actively set up systems to shield student athletes who are a danger to your community from punishment?  Well that's simply shameful.

The NCAA is really ill-equipped to deal with something like this.  And the schools will never give it the power to do so.  So we are left with the DoE, who could sanction the entire University.  And let's just say I'm not holding my breath that they will do anything substantial.

[GooooMarquette]

Well we’re comparing PSU football and MSU basketball and the admin at PSU was definitely caught up in the whole thing, so they’re actually pretty comparable.

The PSU scandal involved one program (football) and one perpetrator (Sandusky).  Many people were involved in the denial and coverup, but it was still relatively limited.

At MSU, we first learned about it because of the gymnastics doc and lots of people covering up for him.  If it had stopped there, I'd agree it was comparable to the PSU scandal.  But even at that point, it was arguably worse, because this guy not only worked for MSU, but USA Gymnastics.  Also, we are now learning that the enablers of the gymnastic doc also covered up for multiple perpetrators in multiple sports. 

And if the dramatically expanded scope isn't enough to convince you, I'll also note that times have changed since the PSU scandal.  Cosby, Weinstein, the #metoo movement - lots of people who previously would have gotten away with sexual violence are now being held accountable. 

If the findings of the OTL report are true, it will take a long time for MSU to recover.

[tower912]

To get to Izzo and Dantonio, they are going to have to show they either (A) had knowledge of Nassar or (B) failed to follow MSU's protocols as they were laid out at the time.     I fully expect that there will be more carnage within MSU, and there should be.    The president is gone, the AD is gone, I expect most of the board of trustees to go, the gymnastics coach, a whole bunch more.    I don't think it takes down Izzo or Dantonio.    I think their retirement dates may have just gotten moved up, but I predict they leave on their own terms.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

It's a dirty little secret in higher education that some universities setup separate conduct processes for student athletes. You'll often find title ix offices are housed in athletic departments for this very purpose. I will never work for a title ix office that reports to an athletic director. I'm sure most are great people who follow the law,  but there is just too much opportunity for abuse.

Bingo. As overzealous as the USC cases were in one direction, this is 200 times worse in the other.  More so, throw in campus police, Lansing police and DA.  Such uneven and confounded levels of justice. 

I will even throw the local press in these college towns under the bus just like in Madison.  I mean all this stuff was out there already but heaven forbid they do their jobs.

I might add Hollis in particular should be skewered.  His coaches are his most valuable assets.  No way should he have exposed them as the problem solvers.  First thing you are trained on in any management job is to call in the neutral professionals (legal, compliance, HR) and have the managers/coaches step away. These coaches shouldn't be talking to the victims, the accused or to any one else on these matters. Management 101.

[forgetful]

TAMU, this is crap that has to stop.  Universities need to stop treating athletics like subsidiaries who are allowed to run their own business.  I mean, I've never really cared all that much about the wink and a nod benefits that student athletes get because I think amateurism is a sham, but when you actively set up systems to shield student athletes who are a danger to your community from punishment?  Well that's simply shameful.

The NCAA is really ill-equipped to deal with something like this.  And the schools will never give it the power to do so.  So we are left with the DoE, who could sanction the entire University.  And let's just say I'm not holding my breath that they will do anything substantial.

It's not just athletes, it is anyone that brings in money.  Kids of wealthy families, athletes etc., they get a pass.  Keeping kids safe is irrelevant if the $$$$'s says it is.

The vast majority of assaults reported to University die in an office, where the victims are scared out of saying anything because of "how powerful" their attackers/family are and the media storm it would create. 

[Tugg Speedman]

The PSU scandal involved one program (football) and one perpetrator (Sandusky).  Many people were involved in the denial and coverup, but it was still relatively limited.

At MSU, we first learned about it because of the gymnastics doc and lots of people covering up for him.  If it had stopped there, I'd agree it was comparable to the PSU scandal.  But even at that point, it was arguably worse, because this guy not only worked for MSU, but USA Gymnastics.  Also, we are now learning that the enablers of the gymnastic doc also covered up for multiple perpetrators in multiple sports. 

And if the dramatically expanded scope isn't enough to convince you, I'll also note that times have changed since the PSU scandal.  Cosby, Weinstein, the #metoo movement - lots of people who previously would have gotten away with sexual violence are now being held accountable. 

If the findings of the OTL report are true, it will take a long time for MSU to recover.

Right-on gooo

Add to this that PSU saw an outpouring of support and donor money to get football back on the Map.  But if Dantonio and Izzo are fired because theiy helped cover up players committing sexual assault... any Spartan booster than wants to donate money to football and basketball gets shunned as a sexist.  “If they really cared they give it to the women’s programs.”  Any fan that wants to give the teams a standing ovation when they runout of the tunnel will be brandished and predator.

Again if the ESPN allegations are true, this is a game changer for the worse for MSU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU, this is crap that has to stop.  Universities need to stop treating athletics like subsidiaries who are allowed to run their own business.  I mean, I've never really cared all that much about the wink and a nod benefits that student athletes get because I think amateurism is a sham, but when you actively set up systems to shield student athletes who are a danger to your community from punishment?  Well that's simply shameful.

The NCAA is really ill-equipped to deal with something like this.  And the schools will never give it the power to do so.  So we are left with the DoE, who could sanction the entire University.  And let's just say I'm not holding my breath that they will do anything substantial.

Absolutely agree though I will say that we need to be careful not to paint with too broad of a brush. There are corrupt universities that do this, but they are the vast minority. Bad actors need to be weeded out.

Most universities have a policy in their university rules that says something to the effect of "if you break any federal, state, or local laws you can be held accountable by the university." The NCAA needs to develop a rule to the effect of "if a university violates a federal law (like Title IX) and a student athlete is somehow involved, the NCAA can hold them accountable." This will only stop for good when punishments impact universities' athletics. Academics, reputation, endowment, etc, universities will brush that off easily. Gotta hit them where it hurts and that is their athletic programs. But just like they wimped out with Penn State, the NCAA will sidestep Baylor, and then sidestep Michigan State. They don't want to be involved.

As for MSU, I think Dantonio will be pushed out but only becasue there is a large population of MSU shakers and movers that already want him gone. The only way I see Izzo getting pushed out is if the new MSU president truly decides to clean house and I don't see that happening. President may have lost her job but I doubt anyone at the Board of Regents gets targeted and they are the ones who control the President.

[forgetful]

Absolutely agree though I will say that we need to be careful not to paint with too broad of a brush. There are corrupt universities that do this, but they are the vast minority. Bad actors need to be weeded out.

I don't think "corrupt universities" are in the vast minority.  The magnitude of the corruption at MSU was unique, but the general corruption is far more wide spread.

If the reports regarding assaults, the basketball program and Izzo are true, he should already have been fired.  Same thing for Dantonio and the football program.

[jesmu84]

Right-on gooo

Add to this that PSU saw an outpouring of support and donor money to get football back on the Map.  But if Dantonio and Izzo are fired because theiy helped cover up players committing sexual assault... any Spartan booster than wants to donate money to football and basketball gets shunned as a sexist.  “If they really cared they give it to the women’s programs.” Any fan that wants to give the teams a standing ovation when they runout of the tunnel will be brandished and predator.

Again if the ESPN allegations are true, this is a game changer for the worse for MSU.

No

[Tugg Speedman]

No

You’re still not getting how the world changed with Weinstein and #metoo.

[Lennys Tap]

The vast majority of assaults reported to University die in an office, where the victims are scared out of saying anything because of "how powerful" their attackers/family are and the media storm it would create.

Do you have any proof of this? If this is really true (it sounds crazy) why do we even have universities? Shut 'em down, learn on line.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Replacing Izzo would be very difficult. Could there be sanctions because of this?  I think some would steer well clear of that job.

Sanctions by whom?  UNC, Louisville, Auburn, Miami, Arizona, USC, South Carolina, Okla State are awaiting the NCAA's sanctions...Izzo got one game for paying Dawson's AAU coach for helping "camp".

What a disgrace of an organization. UNC gets nothing and Juan Anderson gets three games for attending a Brewers' game with his roommate. Emmert makes Jolly Roger look good.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You’re still not getting how the world changed with Weinstein and #metoo.

As someone in the trenches on this issue I can tell you the world hasn't changed as much as you seem to think. Public perception has changed for the moment, but unless it results in systematic change (update laws, more training for law enforcement/lawyers/educators/judges, more education in middle/high school, etc) then it will unfortunately pass. People are angrier and more sympathetic than they were before, there are good people trying to channel that into meaningful action. I hope they succeed.

[forgetful]

Do you have any proof of this? If this is really true (it sounds crazy) why do we even have universities? Shut 'em down, learn on line.

Not really possible to prove, what I know is from many people in positions where they would know the actual number of assaults, and those that are reported to occur.  They indicate that at the Universities I have contacts, many are hushed away.  People that know the students report that they were essentially pressured into deciding not to go to police etc. 

I have sufficient contacts at about 5 Universities, and I know in conversations that these are problems at 4 of them.  It is certainly possible that these 4 are actually in the minority, but I find that hard to believe.

But it is not just Universities.  That is the whole point of the #metoo movement; and a general trend of society that if you have money/power, the rules do not apply to you. 

[Lennys Tap]

Not really possible to prove, what I know is from many people in positions where they would know the actual number of assaults, and those that are reported to occur.  They indicate that at the Universities I have contacts, many are hushed away.  People that know the students report that they were essentially pressured into deciding not to go to police etc. 

I have sufficient contacts at about 5 Universities, and I know in conversations that these are problems at 4 of them.  It is certainly possible that these 4 are actually in the minority, but I find that hard to believe.

But it is not just Universities.  That is the whole point of the #metoo movement; and a general trend of society that if you have money/power, the rules do not apply to you.

Saying you have anecdotal, second (at best) hand information that sometimes at a handful of institutions accusations of sexual assault are improperly handled is nowhere near the same thing as saying that the vast majority of sexual assault allegations die because universities and the victims are intimidated by "powerful" students or their parents. Over the top hyperbole doesn't help solve anything.

[forgetful]

Saying you have anecdotal, second (at best) hand information that sometimes at a handful of institutions accusations of sexual assault are improperly handled is nowhere near the same thing as saying that the vast majority of sexual assault allegations die because universities and the victims are intimidated by "powerful" students or their parents. Over the top hyperbole doesn't help solve anything.

To be fair, I clarified my sources when you requested it.  And my point was that I don't think giving athletes/wealthy people a pass is the minority at Universities. 

If you want more info, the best sources are RA's.  They are usually the first line of contact in assault reports and get those victims/reports to the people in charge.  The RA's usually follow up with the victims; many times to find out that the report went nowhere and the students were warned about "how big a deal" reporting so and so would become.  They will do it under the guise, of you need to be prepared for the publicity storm and everyone attacking you/suing you...we'll be here for you through the whole thing, but you need to be aware of how ugly this will get. 

Another great source is the legal counsel for some of these departments, that have been known to resign because they would not partake in the practices of some institutions.

And, although second hand, it is as close to the source as anyone will get, given that these things get brushed away and covered up. 

I repeat, my point was TAMU saying that coverups because of wealth/fame are in the minority, my contacts imply they are not.  The #metoo movement indicates that they are widespread beyond the campus walls to all of society. 

[Lennys Tap]

I repeat, my point was TAMU saying that coverups because of wealth/fame are in the minority, my contacts imply they are not.  The #metoo movement indicates that they are widespread beyond the campus walls to all of society.

Thanks for the clarification, but my point stands:when scientists like yourself use flimsy, anecdotal, second hand information to draw conclusions regarding the "vast majority" of cases it's decidedly unscientific, reckless and dangerous. IMO.

[forgetful]

Thanks for the clarification, but my point stands:when scientists like yourself use flimsy, anecdotal, second hand information to draw conclusions regarding the "vast majority" of cases it's decidedly unscientific, reckless and dangerous. IMO.

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I disagree with your sentiment.  This is not a scientific endeavor, there is no scientific data.  Almost all of the data is second hand.  All of the data is by definition anecdotal, as it all relies on personal accounts.  My data is not flimsy, it just has a small sample size, so it becomes just one data point.

If you look at broad statistics, the number of students that say they were sexually assaulted (anonymous polls), and the number that say they reported it to university staff, and compare it to the number of assaults Universities report to occur, either the victims are lying or the Universities are not reporting them.  This is another data point.

The first hand data of victims going public with their stories is consistent with this being a much wider spread problem not a minority issue. 

[GGGG]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. I disagree with your sentiment.  This is not a scientific endeavor, there is no scientific data.  Almost all of the data is second hand.  All of the data is by definition anecdotal, as it all relies on personal accounts.  My data is not flimsy, it just has a small sample size, so it becomes just one data point.

If you look at broad statistics, the number of students that say they were sexually assaulted (anonymous polls), and the number that say they reported it to university staff, and compare it to the number of assaults Universities report to occur, either the victims are lying or the Universities are not reporting them.  This is another data point.

The first hand data of victims going public with their stories is consistent with this being a much wider spread problem not a minority issue. 

Stop being so reckless and dangerous.

[tower912]

http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2018/01/former_michigan_state_player_t.html#incart_river_home_pop

Travis Walton responds.   

[Lennys Tap]

http://www.mlive.com/spartans/index.ssf/2018/01/former_michigan_state_player_t.html#incart_river_home_pop

Travis Walton responds.

Well, either he's lying' or ESPN is.

[Tugg Speedman]

http://theundefeated.com/features/michigan-state-basketball-coach-tom-izzo-stop-deflecting-and-start-talking/

[Pakuni]

Well, either he's lying' or ESPN is.

Not really. Walton isn't denying that he was allowed to continue coaching after he was accused of physically assaulting a woman. He's denying the assault.
And ESPN didn't claim Walton was fired - which he denies. ESPN reported the contents of a letter a MSU sex assault counselor sent to school administrators which said he was fired. And ESPN allowed Walton to deny that in their original story.