Less-than-flattering take on JFB

[WarriorFan]

First I thought the bulls might be behind a smear campaign to justify an upcoming trade.  But they aren't that smart.

Now, I conclude that somebody is trying to reduce Butler's trade value.

Unfortunately this would be one of the other dysfunctional NBA teams.  Bye By JFB, hello Phoenix or Sacratomato.

[wadesworld]

I don't disagree with number 1 being a reality but it is crazy stupid logic that a lot of GMs still have today. Hammond had previously made a comment about not dealing with Cleveland because of being in the same divisions. Divisions in the NBA are completely meaningless. Any eastern conference team will have the same competitive situation since the playoff seeding has changed to limit the significance of central division champs.

You play your division opponents more often throughout the season than you do any other teams in the NBA.  If you feel like you'd be helping stack a team you're going to see as many times as any other team in the league for the next 5 years (which they would be doing if they traded JFB to the Bucks) then it's not the greatest move.

Plus there's the salary situation.  You'd need to add another fairly big Bulls contract to make a trade for Moose and Middleton work.

[GooooMarquette]

You play your division opponents more often throughout the season than you do any other teams in the NBA.  If you feel like you'd be helping stack a team you're going to see as many times as any other team in the league for the next 5 years (which they would be doing if they traded JFB to the Bucks) then it's not the greatest move.

That rationale makes sense...if you're a GM and feel you will get the bad end of a trade.  If you're a confident GM and think you will get the better end of a trade, I'd think weakening a division opponent would have great appeal.

[martyconlonontherun]

You play your division opponents more often throughout the season than you do any other teams in the NBA.  If you feel like you'd be helping stack a team you're going to see as many times as any other team in the league for the next 5 years (which they would be doing if they traded JFB to the Bucks) then it's not the greatest move.

Plus there's the salary situation.  You'd need to add another fairly big Bulls contract to make a trade for Moose and Middleton work.

Here's the schedule formula:
4 games against the other 4 division opponents, [4x4=16 games]
4 games against 6 (out-of-division) conference opponents, [4x6=24 games]
3 games against the remaining 4 conference teams, [3x4=12 games]
2 games against teams in the opposing conference. [2x15=30 games]
You play your division 4 times a year and other conference opponents 3.666. So basically, by trading within the division you will play the guy one extra time over three years. He specifically said "division" opponent, which I thought was a meaningless term in modern NBA. There is very little difference between trading with the Bucks and the Heat.

I could see some benefit in having a preference between conferences but it is an 82 game schedule and these teams are headed in different directions. 2 extra games a year shouldn't hold your team back from making a trade you think will help you in the long run. Only in a situation where you have 2 top teams in the same conference (life the Spurs and Warriors potentially facing each other in the conference finals) where it will matter if you help the other team out. Otherwise, you are eliminating half the league and a few teams you could possibly face in the NBA finals from the other conference from your allowed trading list. It will start looking like a UW transfer blocked schools list when you start using that logic.

I was never questioning the trade or the feasibility behind it but rather pointing out how some fans and NBA officials think divisions matter at all in the NBA.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

The Bulls situation if fixable with some creativity and ingenuity.  I just have no confidence that Paxson and Forman are capable of it. 

[MerrittsMustache]

The Bulls situation if fixable with some creativity and ingenuity.  I just have no confidence that Paxson and Forman are capable of it.

Agree 100%.

Creativity and ingenuity are not words one would often find associated with Paxson and Forman. When the front office is loyal to a fault as well as risk averse, you get the current state of the Bulls.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Love what Jimmy did at Marquette. Love how great of a player he has made himself into the Association. Have never liked the type of player he became in the pros. Probably my least favorite Marquette alumni in the pros.

[GoldenWarrior11]

John Paxson and Gar Forman are not suited to be in charge of basketball operations for the Bulls.  I would have immediately fired John Paxson the moment he strangled Vinny Del Negro after a game for playing players too long.  I would have immediately fired Gar Forman for not only firing Tom Thibdodeau (and having his hand-picked replacement Fred Hoiberg proven to be ill-equipped to manage NBA personalities), but also for instructing the players to "tune out" Thibodeau in December of last year - hoping to make Thibodeau look bad and be the reason the team couldn't advance past LeBron in the playoffs. 

The level of dysfunction is reflective of the leadership in charge of the organization.  No one is accountable.  Not Paxson.  Not Forman.  Not Hoiberg.  Not Rose.  Not Jimmy.  It's quite unreal to see a professional franchise be in such shambles. 

As a Bulls fan, I would fire Paxson and Forman, and hire an outside experienced NBA Executive with no ties to Jerry Reinsdorf or the team (stop with the former players getting big roles), and begin a full-on rebuild.  Hoiberg has too massive a contract to be let go after one year.  Let Noah, Gasol and Dunleavy all go.  Start rebuilding through the draft and get more athleticism on the team.

[Pakuni]

Love what Jimmy did at Marquette. Love how great of a player he has made himself into the Association. Have never liked the type of player he became in the pros. Probably my least favorite Marquette alumni in the pros.

What do you have against hardworking, clutch two-way players who've improved every year?

[PGsHeroes32]

What do you have against hardworking, clutch two-way players who've improved every year?

This

[MerrittsMustache]

What do you have against hardworking, clutch two-way players who've improved every year?

MU fans were having these same feelings towards Wade a few years ago. It'll pass.

[Pakuni]

MU fans were having these same feelings towards Wade a few years ago. It'll pass.

Wade's flopping and frequent on-court whining played a big role in that, though. Jimmy is neither a flopper nor a whiner.

[martyconlonontherun]

What do you have against hardworking, clutch two-way players who've improved every year?

I can see why people like him, but you are being intellectually dishonest if you can't see how he rubs people the wrong way. He talks trash the whole game, anointed himself the team leader before earning respect from other players, and just doesn't seem like an approachable person. There's a reason why he has been able to push himself to become the player he is but there is also a reason why the Bulls had horrible chemistry this year. If there wasn't a Marquette allegiance, I would be rooting against the guy. Give me player's like Jabari and Giannis who by all accounts are hard workers and seem like guys you want as a teammate.

[brewcity77]

I can see why people like him, but you are being intellectually dishonest if you can't see how he rubs people the wrong way. He talks trash the whole game, anointed himself the team leader before earning respect from other players, and just doesn't seem like an approachable person. There's a reason why he has been able to push himself to become the player he is but there is also a reason why the Bulls had horrible chemistry this year. If there wasn't a Marquette allegiance, I would be rooting against the guy. Give me player's like Jabari and Giannis who by all accounts are hard workers and seem like guys you want as a teammate.

Agreed. Jimmy is as much a part of the problem in Chicago as are Rose, Gar/Pax, Hoiberg, Gasol, or anyone else associated with that franchise. It's a trainwreck. The only difference is that Jimmy could be part of the solution if all the other negative aspects of the franchise were removed. Don't see that happening, though.

[Pakuni]

I can see why people like him, but you are being intellectually dishonest if you can't see how he rubs people the wrong way. He talks trash the whole game, anointed himself the team leader before earning respect from other players, and just doesn't seem like an approachable person. There's a reason why he has been able to push himself to become the player he is but there is also a reason why the Bulls had horrible chemistry this year. If there wasn't a Marquette allegiance, I would be rooting against the guy. Give me player's like Jabari and Giannis who by all accounts are hard workers and seem like guys you want as a teammate.

Well, you're wrong on several counts here:
- I can see why he might rub people the wrong way. I just happen to think those reasons are nonsense.
- He has earned the respect of teammates, with the exception of possibly one whose posse is well known for whispering unflattering things about others in the organization to the Chicago media.
- Neither of us know how approachable he is (or how approachable Parker or Giannis are, for that matter).
- He's far from the reason why the Bulls have horrible chemistry. In fact, the "horrible chemistry" stuff is largely bunk. This is pretty much the same lineup and chemistry that won 50 games last year and played the Cavs tough in the playoffs. The same lineup/chemistry that had the team 22-12 in January and third-seeded in the East. Chemistry didn't kills this team. Injuries and inconsistency did.

[GoldenWarrior11]

The biggest elephant in the room is not Jimmy, but Derrick Rose.  In the 2013 playoffs, the Bulls had Joakim Noah playing on one leg.  Nate Robinson was puking his guts out in a trashcan during timeouts.  Jimmy Butler played every second of the game.  Derrick Rose was a healthy scratch for each game.  He was cleared to play by the medical staff.  He chose not to play.  There's no way you can tell me that didn't rub hard hard workers like Butler and Noah the wrong way.

I, personally, would much rather build the team around Jimmy than Derrick.  Derrick just cannot be the player he was pre-injury.  It sucks and is unfortunate, but waiting for the Old Derrick to come back is foolish.  He is who he is today - and injuries will continue to haunt him. 

[wadesworld]

Wade's flopping and frequent on-court whining played a big role in that, though. Jimmy is neither a flopper nor a whiner.

LeBron rubbed off on Wade big time when LeBron came to Miami.

I don't watch the Bulls much, but during the Playoffs it was clear that Jimmy got used to getting All Star treatment from the refs and was definitely a "whiner" when he didn't get a call he thought he deserved simply for being the best player on the court.  It also seemed that he took offense to someone fouling him, as if there is nobody in their right mind who would possibly consider sending him to the free throw line instead of allowing a highlight dunk.

He's not the first player who has found success and started acting like an All Star and he won't be the last.  But he's certainly not the Jimmy of his MU days.

I wish the Bucks could get him though.

[GGGG]

Wade was doing that stuff prior to LBJ.  And I didn't mind then either.

[MerrittsMustache]

The biggest elephant in the room is not Jimmy, but Derrick Rose.  In the 2013 playoffs, the Bulls had Joakim Noah playing on one leg.  Nate Robinson was puking his guts out in a trashcan during timeouts.  Jimmy Butler played every second of the game.  Derrick Rose was a healthy scratch for each game.  He was cleared to play by the medical staff.  He chose not to play.  There's no way you can tell me that didn't rub hard hard workers like Butler and Noah the wrong way.

I, personally, would much rather build the team around Jimmy than Derrick.  Derrick just cannot be the player he was pre-injury.  It sucks and is unfortunate, but waiting for the Old Derrick to come back is foolish.  He is who he is today - and injuries will continue to haunt him.

One of the Bulls' biggest problems is that Rose is never going to be the Rose of old but he doesn't understand that and no one within the organization has the stones to explain it to him.

[MerrittsMustache]

Wade was doing that stuff prior to LBJ.  And I didn't mind then either.

Every NBA star does the same thing. My assumption is that the fans who get on the case of Wade, Butler, etc simply don't watch the NBA very much...possibly because of all the whining and flopping.

[wadesworld]

Wade was doing that stuff prior to LBJ.  And I didn't mind then either.

Wade was flopped around and sold contact a lot prior to LeBron coming to Miami.  In my opinion, the whining went to a completely different level once LeBron got there.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Every NBA star does the same thing. My assumption is that the fans who get on the case of Wade, Butler, etc simply don't watch the NBA very much...possibly because of all the whining and flopping.

Wade only annoyed me when Lebron was on the team.  It just seemed like Lebron's whining rubbed off on him even more and amplified it. 

[martyconlonontherun]

Well, you're wrong on several counts here:
- I can see why he might rub people the wrong way. I just happen to think those reasons are nonsense.
- He has earned the respect of teammates, with the exception of possibly one whose posse is well known for whispering unflattering things about others in the organization to the Chicago media.
- Neither of us know how approachable he is (or how approachable Parker or Giannis are, for that matter).
- He's far from the reason why the Bulls have horrible chemistry. In fact, the "horrible chemistry" stuff is largely bunk. This is pretty much the same lineup and chemistry that won 50 games last year and played the Cavs tough in the playoffs. The same lineup/chemistry that had the team 22-12 in January and third-seeded in the East. Chemistry didn't kills this team. Injuries and inconsistency did.

ok, fine from my fan's point of view I don't like him. You asked what people had against a player like Jimmy. I gave you my reasons and you immediately dismissed them as full of nonsense. Can't you at least accept why people don't like rooting for the guy? It's not a matter of being right/wrong but the perception he has created with fans. I said "doesn't seem like an approachable person." I know this is just an opinion but the question is why fans wouldn't like Butler. Butler just seems like a dick based on his actions on the court and media persona he has created the past few years. Jabari and Giannis say and do all the right things and based on people I know that have worked with them, that persona is real. I'm a Packers fan, but I feel like same way about Rodgers. I've heard stories where he is real petty, holds grudges, and other stuff that makes you not want to root for the guy. If he wasn't on the Packers, I probably wouldn't root for him.

I'll also disagree with the chemistry issues. As a Bucks fan, I have seen the team overachieve and underchieve greatly due to chemistry over the years.

[GGGG]

Wade was flopped around and sold contact a lot prior to LeBron coming to Miami.  In my opinion, the whining went to a completely different level once LeBron got there.

That's because you don't like Lebron.  I didn't notice a difference.

[wadesworld]

That's because you don't like Lebron.  I didn't notice a difference.

Meh.  Vander Blue Man Group did notice a difference, so I'm not the only one here.