Next Level

[Goose]

Irwin

Unlike some on here, I definitely think Shaka will use the portal when needed. I give him an A for the use the portal thus far. I believe he has brought in five and two will be playing in the NBA next year and was an incomplete due to injury. As for recruiting higher ranked guys, there is no doubt in mind that there are high quality guys, that are not top 15 recruits, that fit the culture and can be here 2-3 years.

For better or worse, Shaka has now put himself and the program in a position to be judged by March/April success. He is a top tier coach, and the bar gets set higher when you reach that level. Again, I am curious and excited to see how he navigates the next couple of seasons. I always thought Crean's biggest test was the year post Wade and feel the same way about Shaka going into next season.

MU has garnered a very high level of national respect over the past two seasons and that only lasts so long. They basically wrapped up a top three seed prior to Xmas and were consistently ranked in the top ten, even with the most losses of that group. I believe this a time to step it up to the next level and take advantage of the success over the past two years.

[SaveOD238]

For better or worse, Shaka has now put himself and the program in a position to be judged by March/April success. He is a top tier coach, and the bar gets set higher when you reach that level. Again, I am curious and excited to see how he navigates the next couple of seasons. I always thought Crean's biggest test was the year post Wade and feel the same way about Shaka going into next season.

Likewise, Buzz's biggest test was the year after the Amigos graduated.  He passed.  Guys we didn't expect (Jimmy, Cubi, etc) stepped up and the new guys (Buycks, DJO) were better than expected.

Wojo's biggest tests were the years after the Hausers left (barely passing, at best) and the year after Markus left (failure that got him fired).

[Goose]

SaveOD

Good points. Only thing I disagree on is that the bar is higher for Shaka than the other guys. He is a top tier coach and spoiled us with quick success. I am not concerned he will pass the test but is a harder test.

[TallTitan34]

MU reaches out to more players than what hits twitter, both with the portal and HS guys. They like to stay close to the vest. It's how they were able to snag Tre when all the big names started to take notice.

Trilly even mentioned recently how it's hard to get information out of Marquette. 

[MUbiz]

Trilly even mentioned recently how it's hard to get information out of Marquette.

I love this actually. I know people complain about not having box scores for Italy, etc. - but loose lips sink ships and Shaka keeps everything close to him.

[IrwinFletcher]

Tower and Goose are barking up the same tree and both are correct.

Tower is correct about retention and development.  Forget Bo Ryan as the example and focus on Jay Wright.  Wright’s best teams got old together.  I’d also challenge you to go look at the recruiting classes that built the dynasty. They look pretty familiar.

What Wright’s success got him was, the ability to recruit top-30 guys like Spellman, Quinerly and Jermaine Robinson-Earl.  The type of players Goose is referring to.

We have to take into account the new era, but I’d rather fill around the edges on recruiting misses and early entries that developed faster than they anticipated.

Trust the process.

The challenge that coaches have with this "model" is having the cred to impose it.  Jay Wright obviously had it and Hurley now certainly has it.  He can tell players and parents the truth and they can't argue with him.

Shaka is getting there.  He is lacking the post season success, but being in the Top 10 for the last 30 polls carries some weight.  It is easier to tell guys to wait their turn and have them listen when you can point to internal successes that are similar.

[MU82]

Shaka's biggest successes so far have been:

1. Watching a decent 2-guard play at an A-10 school, deciding that player could be a standout Big East PG, convincing him to transfer to Marquette, and helping him develop into an All-American.

2. Re-recruiting a 5 who had played only 38 minutes as a freshman, convincing him to stay at Marquette, watching him play as a decent backup as a sophomore, believing he could become the most unique 5 in the country, and helping him develop into a cornerstone player.

I agree with Goose and others that the odds of those kinds of things happening again are very, very long. I also agree that the most recent recruiting class looks very promising; it will be interesting to see if one or both of them play more next season than most of Shaka's freshmen have.

As for what it will take to reach the "next level" ... the answer is the same as it always has been for every coach in every program: always bring in talented prospects. Successfully recruit players with great potential, develop them, and re-recruit them so that they stay for multiple years. Which isn't exactly a revelation.

I would expect that Shaka will continue to not use the portal much, but I do think he is open to doing so if presented with what he thinks are the right circumstances.

(Mostly) good discussion, folks.

[willie warrior]

Irwin

Unlike some on here, I definitely think Shaka will use the portal when needed. I give him an A for the use the portal thus far. I believe he has brought in five and two will be playing in the NBA next year and was an incomplete due to injury. As for recruiting higher ranked guys, there is no doubt in mind that there are high quality guys, that are not top 15 recruits, that fit the culture and can be here 2-3 years.

For better or worse, Shaka has now put himself and the program in a position to be judged by March/April success. He is a top tier coach, and the bar gets set higher when you reach that level. Again, I am curious and excited to see how he navigates the next couple of seasons. I always thought Crean's biggest test was the year post Wade and feel the same way about Shaka going into next season.

MU has garnered a very high level of national respect over the past two seasons and that only lasts so long. They basically wrapped up a top three seed prior to Xmas and were consistently ranked in the top ten, even with the most losses of that group. I believe this a time to step it up to the next level and take advantage of the success over the past two years.

The college BB landscape is now firmly entrenched in judging programs by March/April success.
By that standard, Shaka must I'm prove. The winning BEast tourney started in the right direction last year but 2 straight years of fading with 2 seeds puts the program in a state of wondering what is next.
The current roster at best puts MU  around top 25, but no where elite. Hopefully the incoming recruits may work out, but Shaka needs studs to improve the status. When will we see some real studs again?

[MU82]

We need more studly piles of dung.

[DienerTime34]

The college BB landscape is now firmly entrenched in judging programs by March/April success.
By that standard, Shaka must I'm prove. The winning BEast tourney started in the right direction last year but 2 straight years of fading with 2 seeds puts the program in a state of wondering what is next.
The current roster at best puts MU  around top 25, but no where elite. Hopefully the incoming recruits may work out, but Shaka needs studs to improve the status. When will we see some real studs again?

This is a fun conversation to have about sports in general. Just look at how devalued the NBA regular season has become. Teams don't even play guys 25% of the year. All that matters is being rested & healthy for postseason. I'm honestly surprised that elite college teams don't do more "load management" although we kinda did exactly that with Tyler this year.

I definitely see a college world where the conference tournaments become devalued -- the committee has proven you can't really improve your seeding much, and the risk of tired legs & injuries right before the tournament (as long as your spot is already assured) are too much.

How much different is MU's postseason run if Oso sat the Big East tournament & never picked up whatever nagging injury it was that clearly limited his explosiveness? 

[Uncle Rico]

We need more studly piles of dung.

Fans like Willie aren’t the ones I worry about the program appeasing. 

[Zog from Margo]

I honestly do not get caught up with the number or stars next to a guys name.  Here are the top recruits of this past year, outside of Castle and a few others, there is not many that made a massive impact in their first year in the top 30. Fit, culture and the ability to want to be coached are invaluable and I trust Shaka to make that choice of who to bring in.

https://247sports.com/Season/2023-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=HighSchool/

If you have not heard this - Hurley sums this up perfectly when it comes to team culture and even talks about the helicopter parents:

https://twitter.com/TaylorTwellman/status/1777845078628688191

I agree completely. First, who can assess talent better: Shaka and his staff or the writer handing out stars? Second, recruiting random players with lots of stars (the Dodds/Wojo approach) does not make much sense. You need to recruit guys that fit with how you want to play. Shaka generally wants guys who are not athletically limited and can learn to play on both ends of the floor. Guys generally get stars based solely on how they play on offense and the star system does not take into account the fact that some kids physically mature faster than others.

It seems like I am a lot higher on Norman and Lowery than some others. IMO, both were far ahead of the game defensively compared to most frosh and both were more physical than the upperclassmen on the perimeter. Athletically and physically, both are BE players in my mind. We'll see.

Finally, I see a lot of posters comparing MU to where UConn is under Hurley. I do not see anyone comparing MU to where MU was under Wojo. That seems like a lot of progress even in a glass-is-half-empty world.

[rgoode57]

Goose makes a couple of very good points. If MU wants more than S16 success, one simple thing needs to happen - more / better players.  Take a look at UConn's team compared to ours. Other than Tyler, I am not sure we had one player who could start for UConn.  Kam, of course, would get significant minutes but would be a role player.  They simply had better players, and more of them, than we had.  Their roster was a combination of highly touted recruits like Castle, players they recruited from HS and developed, and portal transfers.

In this day and age, getting top players costs a lot of money, and I do not think MU can really compete in that way. And, I do not necessarily want them to simply be buying players. But, Goose is right; you cannot count on catching lightning in a bottle all the time.

[DienerTime34]

Goose makes a couple of very good points. If MU wants more than S16 success, one simple thing needs to happen - more / better players.  Take a look at UConn's team compared to ours. Other than Tyler, I am not sure we had one player who could start for UConn.  Kam, of course, would get significant minutes but would be a role player.  They simply had better players, and more of them, than we had.  Their roster was a combination of highly touted recruits like Castle, players they recruited from HS and developed, and portal transfers.

In this day and age, getting top players costs a lot of money, and I do not think MU can really compete in that way. And, I do not necessarily want them to simply be buying players. But, Goose is right; you cannot count on catching lightning in a bottle all the time.

Or how about gigantic & powerful size both years? I'm already having nightmares of Ben Gold getting absolutely dislodged trying to grab rebounds in the Big East.

That's one reason it makes sense to go to the portal for a graduate-senior type 5. We really, really need a bridge year before our current roster can hold down 40 minutes at the 5 spot for the next few seasons.

[Its DJOver]

Or how about gigantic & powerful size both years? I'm already having nightmares of Ben Gold getting absolutely dislodged trying to grab rebounds in the Big East.

That's one reason it makes sense to go to the portal for a graduate-senior type 5. We really, really need a bridge year before our current roster can hold down 40 minutes at the 5 spot for the next few seasons.

Did you have the same fears about Oso after Kur left? Because Ben and Oso's respective Sophomore year's were remarkably similar from a rebounding perspective.

[tower912]

To be fair, there was concern about whether Oso was ready for 30 minutes a night.

[Viper]

Did you have the same fears about Oso after Kur left? Because Ben and Oso's respective Sophomore year's were remarkably similar from a rebounding perspective.

at this point, however, we know that Ben isn’t very athletic, slow afoot.

[Its DJOver]

at this point, however, we know that Ben isn’t very athletic, slow afoot.

If anything that would make me more optimistic about his rebounding. Less switching so he’s down in the paint more where Oso would occasionally get caught up on the perimeter after a rotation.

[tower912]

at this point, however, we know that Ben isn’t very athletic, slow afoot.

Ben isn't as quick as Oso.   Ben is quicker than Henry, Luke, Theo, or a Hauser.   Oso is the outlier.

[bilsu]

Ben isn't as quick as Oso.   Ben is quicker than Henry, Luke, Theo, or a Hauser.   Oso is the outlier.

Quicker than Henry surprises me.

[Viper]

Ben isn't as quick as Oso.   Ben is quicker than Henry, Luke, Theo, or a Hauser.   Oso is the outlier.

agreed on Oso. Quicker than Luke, for sure. Sam Hauser? Imo Sam is quicker than Ben. Henry and Theo too.

[Zog from Margo]

Man, I think Gold is pretty athletic for a guy who’s 6’10”. His lateral movement has improved a lot and he’s fast down the court. When he puts it on the floor, he gets to the hoop in a hurry.

Gold is ahead of where Oso was at the same point in their careers. I think big guys generally take a little longer to develop.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Man, I think Gold is pretty athletic for a guy who’s 6’10”. His lateral movement has improved a lot and he’s fast down the court. When he puts it on the floor, he gets to the hoop in a hurry.

Gold is ahead of where Oso was at the same point in their careers. I think big guys generally take a little longer to develop.

The shin splints over the summer really had a big impact. I thought he improved defensively as the season went on.

[BM1090]

agreed on Oso. Quicker than Luke, for sure. Sam Hauser? Imo Sam is quicker than Ben. Henry and Theo too.

Go watch some of his moves from this year where he pump fakes and blows by his guy. He’s definitely quicker than Sam, Henry, and Theo. He just hasn’t put it together yet.

[tower912]

Also watch the videos of his help and recovery defense.  At least as good as Otule.