If MU fails to make the NCAA tourney...

[tomahawkchop]

is this season considered a failure?

[TJ]

For Christ sake, we haven't even gotten to conference play yet.  We've lost only twice - once to a very good opponent.  Could we not get that far down on this team yet please?

[tomahawkchop]

For Christ sake, we haven't even gotten to conference play yet.  We've lost only twice - once to a very good opponent.  Could we not get that far down on this team yet please?

Marquette looks to be a borderline NCAA team.  I don't think it's overly negative at all.

And it's not just the losses that have some of us concerned.  They've looked every bit as bad in a bunch of their wins against the cupcakes.

[TJ]

Agreed - they're not as good as we wanted them to be.  Why didn't you post this two days ago?  It is the loss that brought this out.  Take a deep breath, calm down.  MU needs to get better, or they may miss the tourney.  Let's hope for the best.  The wins against Duke and Texas Tech will look good, so we have that going for us.  Think of some of the positives for once.

[4everwarriors]

is a failure if you don't make the tournament. That's the reason that the schedule is played. Any other expectation or excuse and you might as well be a UWM fan.

[tomahawkchop]

Agreed - they're not as good as we wanted them to be.  Why didn't you post this two days ago?  It is the loss that brought this out.  Take a deep breath, calm down.  MU needs to get better, or they may miss the tourney.  Let's hope for the best.  The wins against Duke and Texas Tech will look good, so we have that going for us.  Think of some of the positives for once.

Why didn't I post this two days ago?  Because I sincerely felt the NDSU loss would be a wake-up call and they would come out with a vengeance yesterday.  I never expected the same kind of performance, but it appears MU is what it is, and it's certainly not a top 10 team and probably not even a top 25 team.

The positives??...well, the only possible positive would be the big 3.  But James appears to be reading his press clippings a few times too many and doesn't come out nearly ready to play, McNeal is a turnover or bad decision waiting to happen (that ridiculous lob pass to DJ still makes my blood boil) and Matthews seems to have regressed from his solid freshman season.  Those who argued that only guards matter depended on those guards being superlative players.  None are superlative, imo, so the other missing parts such as a pure shooter, big man, etc, now become more painfully evident.

But I'm sure as soon as MU beats Marlyland Savanah Delaware Northwestern Baltimore County State, some will say the ship is righted and all is well.

[rocky_warrior]

Ahhh...tomahawk gets the nod for most negative poster on MUScoop.  Not sure if you're actually here to talk about basketball, or just spread your anti-crean propaganda.  So far, I've only seen the latter.

If MU were to miss the NCAA, it would be a disappointment.  I've seen lots of posts questioning this team - but I think it's all premature.  This year, after 11 games, we have 2 losses.  One to a good Wisconsin team (forgivable) and one to NDSU (which, per the RPI is better than our loss to Nebraska last year).  Speaking of last year - we were 6-3 to start the season after the Wisconsin game, and our best win had come to the NIT bound South Carolina. 

Say what you will about Duke this year, but they're still an NCAA team, and we weren't out-coached in that game.  Texas Tech has a decent team too, and we owned them.  I'm not saying that crean hasn't or won't ever be out-coached, but there are quite a few games that he's had the upper hand in that category.

We've got a lot of talent on this team.  Feel free to give up and stop watching games, but I still think the team DOES have a chance to right itself.  They did last year after this point in the season, why can't they do it again?  We're actually in better shape at this point in the season than we were last year.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

The biggest thing MU has going for it as far as making the NCAA is the fact that the Big East is down and we have a very soft home conference schedule.

Let there be no doubt, however, that we're not as good a team as last year's group. Not only was Novak a HUGE loss, but we miss Chapman and Grimm a lot. You cannot overestimate the value of seniors.

[marquette09]

I'm not concerned about us not making the tourney at all.  After we win the next four we will be 13-2.  The way I see it worst case scenario we go 8-8 in the BE.  That puts us at 21-10 (Not including what could happen in the BE tourney), which will get us in to the tourney especially after beating duke OOC.  Like I said on another post yesterday it is Decemer 10th, still a LONG way to go.  This team will be OK.

[rocky_warrior]

Let there be no doubt, however, that we're not as good a team as last year's group.

I have doubt - seems to me there's lots of games to be played, and we don't know the results of them yet.  You may end up being correct, but it's a cop out to make that kind of prediction and then come back later to say the team & crean surprised you. 

I suppose it's good for the psyche to expect the worst, and be happy with the best though.

[Warriors Forever]

Please ignore the troll.

[MarquetteBallin]

If Marquette doesn't make the NCAA with the pre-season expectations we had, a non-conference win over Duke, and a top 10 ranking at one point in the season, it will be because this team had a collapse of monumental proportions. It could absolutely happen, and to not make the NCAA tourney in any year means that the season was a failure. Why play if the ultimate goal isn't to make the Big Dance?

[WashDCWarrior]

If MU doesn't make the NCAAs, then YES the season would be considered a failure.  However, if we would have beat UW, we probably would be asking if we had a chance for a #1 seed.

One game isn't going to swing us that much in either direction.  I still think we'll win 9, 10, or 11 conference games this year.  Almost all BE conference teams have lost a game to an inferior opponent.  We've only lost two games and one was to a very good UW team. (although we hate to admit it)

It's easy to look at our deficiencies (poor 3-pt, FT shooting, poor offensive decision making, no major inside offensive threat) and see doom.  Every team has deficiencies, but we also have a number of positives that other teams would kill for. (defensive and offensive quickness, athletisism, depth)  Plus we're a young team, meaning our players haven't peaked.  Name one who's playing up to his talent level right now.

I think as the season goes on, we'll see improvement in the deficient areas I've mentioned and we'll be a tough 4, 5, 6 seed come selection time.

[MUinOH]

Barring a significant problem with injuries or somebody leaving, there's no way MU misses the tourney.  That's just crazy talk.

[MarquetteVol]

We played a legitimate Top 10 team on Saturday. We shot 39 percent from the field, 16 percent from three, got outrebounded by 6, had 16 turnovers to 8 assists, let their best player go off for 28 points and....we lost by four points. I'm not worried about this game.

[MarquetteBallin]

"We shot 39 percent from the field, 16 percent from three, got outrebounded by 6, had 16 turnovers to 8 assists, let their best player go off for 28 points and....we lost by four points"

- These are just excuses in an attempt to reconcile losing the game. The fact of the matter is opportunities like Saturday only come around once in a very long while. Huge crowd, unbelievable pre-game atmosphere, big-time rival at the Bradley Center. There's no telling how much confidence a young team like ours gets from winning a game like that. However, we did not play well and the game was certainly not as close as the score indicates...it was 10 points most of the way, save for a last second three by DJ we were never under a five point margin. It's not like it's the first time we've shot poorly all year...we will continue to shoot poorly because we simply don't have good shooters. UW was exponentially better than us Saturday. If we play that game in Madison we get hammerred by 15+ points.

[rocky_warrior]

the game was certainly not as close as the score indicates...

Ok I'm tired of reading things like that.  Marquette MADE it a 4 point game - and that's how it ended. Yes, we played like crap, but the team was able to stay in the game and come back at the end.  What?  People think Bo was just feeling generous and told his guys not to play good defense in the end?  I'm sure he was thinking of all the bummed out MU fans when he was so kind to only let us only lose by 4.

Gimme a BREAK!  I know, moral victories don't go very far, but it's not an excuse either.  Marquette's guys played their guys out, shot like crap, ran into a very hot player in Tucker and lost by 4.  Maybe UW should be more worried because they let MU back into the game!?? Ok, that's a stretch - but you see my point is that I don't doubt for a second that Bo would have preferred to bury Marquette by 20, and his team couldn't pull it off!

Not to take this all out on you 'ballin, I've read it from several posters and I just finally had to respond when I read yours.  I do agree we've seen recurring problems that need to be fixed in the next month - or we've got big problems.  However, I'm still sticking to my statement that this team is off to better start than last year's team.  Therefore I'll continue to believe they'll end up better until they prove me wrong (after playing the games).

[spiral97]

the game was certainly not as close as the score indicates...

Ok I'm tired of reading things like that.  Marquette MADE it a 4 point game - and that's how it ended. Yes, we played like crap, but the team was able to stay in the game and come back at the end.  What?  People think Bo was just feeling generous and told his guys not to play good defense in the end?  I'm sure he was thinking of all the bummed out MU fans when he was so kind to only let us only lose by 4.

Gimme a BREAK!  I know, moral victories don't go very far, but it's not an excuse either.  Marquette's guys played their guys out, shot like crap, ran into a very hot player in Tucker and lost by 4.  Maybe UW should be more worried because they let MU back into the game!?? Ok, that's a stretch - but you see my point is that I don't doubt for a second that Bo would have preferred to bury Marquette by 20, and his team couldn't pull it off!

Not to take this all out on you 'ballin, I've read it from several posters and I just finally had to respond when I read yours.  I do agree we've seen recurring problems that need to be fixed in the next month - or we've got big problems.  However, I'm still sticking to my statement that this team is off to better start than last year's team.  Therefore I'll continue to believe they'll end up better until they prove me wrong (after playing the games).

buy THIS guy a beer!!! 

[mu_hilltopper]

Sorry, Rock, I completely disagree.  The phrase "it wasn't as close as the score indicates" is used millions of times for all games of sport, and can be a valid representation of what happened in a game, where one team pretty much dominates the other, but the final score doesn't reflect that because of what happens at the end, garbage time.

While it is frustrating to watch, teams tighten down defense and ramp up pressure when the game is close, and relax when it's "over", or at least, looks over.  UW did that .. plus, you don't play tight defense at the end, as you don't want to run the risk of fouling, and letting the other team score with the clock stopped.  So in the end, you waste their time and maybe give up a bucket.

Then on the offensive side, a team with a double digit lead is trying more to eat clock than to score in the last 2-3 minutes.  So, no surprise, MU outscored UW 16 to 10 in the final 4, and 3 of those on a bomb for 3 at the buzzer.

Honestly, I thought the game was over when there was about 15 minutes left in the 2nd half, and we'd just gone down 10.  I could just tell it was one of those nights where it was just impossible to put together any kind of run.  UW answered every bucket, almost immediately, and had been for the entire game.

It's also important to remember we were AT HOME, which is normally a 4 point kind of deal .. but with the BC packed to capacity (even with 30% UW fans) I'd say it was an even bigger HCAdvantge, like 6 or 8.  For UW to climb out of that 6-8 point HCA hole, plus get a double digit lead after 90% of the game was played .. it's pretty obvious we were dominated, which the score does not represent.

In short, many believe we didn't just lose by 4, and that's a pretty valid idea.

[rocky_warrior]

In short, many believe we didn't just lose by 4, and that's a pretty valid idea.

Yeah, I guess as long as you ignore facts, figures, and statistics we lost by more than 4. Lol.

I had a bucky fan as well as a couple "neutrals" over to watch the game.  Marquette's run at the end had her very nervous (like head in the hands nervous).   I think I was actually convinced it was over before she was.  I'll have to suck it up and watch it again soon, but I don't think I'm rewriting history to say that we had a legit shot up until the last 60 secs despite not being in the game for most of the 2nd half.

[williewampum]

For UW to climb out of that 6-8 point HCA hole, plus get a double digit lead after 90% of the game was played .. it's pretty obvious we were dominated, which the score does not represent.

In short, many believe we didn't just lose by 4, and that's a pretty valid idea.

Of course, you are correct.  There are tons of game recaps from basketball (college and pro) as well as football (college and pro) that say something to the effect of "the game wasn't as close as the final score indicates."  Heck, if MU doesn't make the final meaningless 3 pointer, then the margin of victory is 7, which would have quieted the "moral victory" types that are fooling themselves here.  The outcome of this game was NEVER in doubt during the 2nd half.

And if MU couldn't win a game like this with this much hype and the alumni and students all fired up. and a packed house...well, once the cupcakes are eaten and the BE season starts, then we'll see just how good MU is or isn't.

[mu03eng]

Willie, I think you are the one being the revisionist.  Remember with three minutes and two minutes to go, MU had it within 4 and it took acrobatic moves/shots from Tucker to extend the lead.  Marquette was within striking distance until the last minute when the fouling started.  Again, if Tucker doesn't make a couple of difficult shots we board the ball and have a chance to narrow the lead to two....we do that, the place is going nuts and you have a much different game.  Wisconsin was in control during the second half but the outcome was CERTAINLY in doubt. 

[WashDCWarrior]

Could MU have made a run to win?  Of course, so of course the outcome was in doubt.

The reason people are saying it wasn't as close as the score dictated (which I agree with) is that the lead in the 2nd half bounced between about 4 and 10.  (don't remember exactly)  That made it feel like about a 7 pt. loss.  If there had been ten or twelve lead changes in the 2nd half and UW was up 1 and then hit a 3 pointer at the buzzer, then that 4 point victory would have felt much closer.

[bheitz]

Alright, I'm jumping in...

First, it didn't feel like a close game to me.  I understand the argument about the 4 point loss, but as I was sitting there watching the game I had a gut feeling (for lack of a better phrase) that MU just didn't have enough of whatever they needed to win the game.

Second, I also felt that MU was lost, that they weren't really in the game.  Yes, the lead at times was whittled down to 4, but it seemed like such a struggle to get to THAT point that it seemed like they'd run on fumes for a bit and UW would be back up by 6 or 8.

Third, MU had no answer for Tucker.  Every time he touched the ball we (our group) were thinking automatic 2.  It's like he pulled a 'Bama Felix on MU.

Just MHO on how "close" the game was 

[Marquette84]

I'm really struggling to understand why there is a reflexive behavior of making MU's performance in the worst possible light. 

Some of these are just nutty.

teams tighten down defense and ramp up pressure when the game is close, and relax when it's "over", or at least, looks over.  UW did that.

Can you please tell me exactly when in the game UW felt that it looked over and eased up?  I'll help you out--here's the game play by play.  You tell me when Bo and the boys decided that the game was in the bag and that MU couldn't possibly come back.

http://gomarquette.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2006-2007/11wis06.html

I checked the play-by-play to remind me of the game, and for the life of me I can't figure out when pecisely Wisconsin "relaxed".

In fact, every time it looked like UW was going to put the game away, MU went on a bit of a run to bring the game back to 4-6 points. 

It's also important to remember we were AT HOME, which is normally a 4 point kind of deal .. but with the BC packed to capacity (even with 30% UW fans) I'd say it was an even bigger HCAdvantge, like 6 or 8

Yeah, right.  When the opposing teams fans fill 30% of your seats, it gives you a bigger home court advantage.

In that case, the biggest home court advantage in College Ball belongs to DePaul--who has a HUGE home court advange whenever MU comes to town.

Jeesh--do you recall those "This is our House" banners?  Do you REALLLY think they make for a bigger home court advantage?

Using the 30% UW fan estmate , we had about 13K MU fans in the house, and nearly 6,000 for UW.

If the fans we put in Allstate give us a huge boost over a normal visiting team, then you have to accept that the 6000 UW fans gave them a boost, reducing our home court advantage

Saying that our home court advantage was bigger is about as nutty a statement as one can make.

The reason people are saying it wasn't as close as the score dictated (which I agree with) is that the lead in the 2nd half bounced between about 4 and 10.

So let me get this straight-- so even though the final was within the 4-10 point range, 4 seemed closer?

Sorry--I don't get it.  Its not like Wisconsin was up by 20+, and 4 is as close as MU got during the 2nd half.

Basically, for all of the 2nd half, it was a 2 to 4 possession game.  The final score reflected a 2 possession game.   

[rocky_warrior]

Hey, I think I recognize that thought process and style of writing.  Welcome to the board '84.

[mu_hilltopper]

Oh, please, Marquette84.  Same old same old.

You full well know the difference between the intensity of a tie game, versus the intensity of a game that one team has led from the start, with double digit leads near the end.    You know full well that defense changes from preventing scoring, to preventing quick scoring and not fouling.  So, sure, no coach will ever say to his boys "it's over, don't try any more" which isn't what I said, anyhow.

**Yeah, right.  When the opposing teams fans fill 30% of your seats, it gives you a bigger home court advantage.

I didn't say that, now did I?   What I did say was that the BC was packed to the gills, all yelling, and admitted it was electric even with 30% opposing fans. 

While there's no boxscore stat that shows the UW players' mindset, I can't imagine they considered the BC anything but a very hostile environment.  Would it be more hostile with 30% more MU fans, mostly in the rafters?  Sure.  More.

As to your DePaul comments, I can't speak to them, as I've never gone to an @DePaul game.  From reports, it sounds like the scales are tipped in MU's favor, with gold clad fans not just in the upper deck, but all over, thus the concept of "Bradley Center South".  If true, that's very different than the UW@MU game, where the MU fans still outnumber the UW fans by a wide margin, AND a high chunk of the UW fans are in the upper endzone of the BC.

** Basically, for all of the 2nd half, it was a 2 to 4 possession game.  The final score reflected a 2 possession game.

While true, the 2nd half was mostly played where MU needed 2-4 possessions of scoring followed by UW not scoring, it was doubtful that wasn't going to happen, as UW answered every call.  When you're behind by 2-4 possessions, and your opponent is shooting a blistering 57% (2nd half) you need to hit, what, 80%?  It was obvious that the chances of that happening were slim (even with shooting a healthy 48% in the 2h.)

Clearly, the overall issue is whether the meager couple of buckets, 4 points, was indicative of the scale of this HOME loss.  Most (admittedly not all) people who've voiced an opinion here believe we had our butts handed to us.  How examining one game and, for the reasons set forth in about a dozen+ posts, believe MU's performance was sub-par is a "reflexive behavior" I know not.

[rocky_warrior]

Most (admittedly not all) people who've voiced an opinion here believe we had our butts handed to us.

Most?  Hm, this sounds like a good poll.  I kinda' wish we could just move on, but hey it's kinda fun.  8)

[Warriors Forever]

Hey guys. You are being suckered into this by three bagder trolls. williewampum has been around only when we play the UW hyphen rodents. you don't get the marquette ballin' joke? "bawlin" and tomahawkchop. Read all their posts. You will see it is a bunch of jag bagders with nothing else better to do.

[spiral97]

ahh yes.. MU hosting DePaul at the allstate arena.. them der were the days!  *snickers and chants "this is our house" clap clap clap-clap-clap*

when most of the depaul fans that DID show up did so wearing paper bags over their heads..  

as depressing as this topic is supposed to be I think I've gotten more laughs and smiles out of it than any other recently

[Marquette84]

**Yeah, right.  When the opposing teams fans fill 30% of your seats, it gives you a bigger home court advantage.

I didn't say that, now did I?   What I did say was that the BC was packed to the gills, all yelling, and admitted it was electric even with 30% opposing fans. 

Actually, you did say our home court advantage was larger than usual. 

While there's no boxscore stat that shows the UW players' mindset, I can't imagine they considered the BC anything but a very hostile environment.  Would it be more hostile with 30% more MU fans, mostly in the rafters?  Sure. 

Based on having 30% of those in the house rooting them on, I would think that they would consider it more of a neutral court (as opposed to a hostile one)--much like a Big 10 or NCAA tournament audience.  No, its not their court--neither are the tournament games.  But they had enough of a contingent there to make it a bit more friendly than a venue compared to one where all the fans are rooting against you.

While true, the 2nd half was mostly played where MU needed 2-4 possessions of scoring followed by UW not scoring, it was doubtful that wasn't going to happen, as UW answered every call.

Actually, you mean it was doubtful that was going to happen.

And I didn't have that doubt--I fully expected that MU was going to continue to make a run at UW and not just close the gap, but take the lead.

I guess this epitomizes the optimist/pessimist view.

Pessimist:  We've made 3 or 4 runs--and can't close the gap.  We're gonna lose.
Optimist:  We've made 3 or 4 runs--the other guys can't pull away.  We're gonna win.

In a game played in a -4 to -10 point margin
Pessimist:  -10 reflects how uncompetitive the game was.
Optimist:  -4 reflects how competitive the game was.

Most (admittedly not all) people who've voiced an opinion here believe we had our butts handed to us. 

Actually, according to the poll, its closer to 50/50.

Wisconsin is a good team--no shame in losing to them, and we made it close.  A couple more things go our way (one more defensive stop, one more offensive basket), and we win the game.