Theoritcal MU Question

[silverback]

Hello, all.

I'm a journalist and author out of MU, and I skulk around this board keeping tabs on everything hoops. Meanwhile, my work lives here...

http://www.johnscottlewinski.com

I'm working on a book regarding THIS topic...

https://medium.com/lug-magazine/the-cult-of-defense-56eb051b07f3

...And, I have a research question for Scoopers to consider. Please note this is ENTIRELY theoretical and not a hint at anything tangible. This is only "what if." No need to worry or speculate.

1) If criminal abuse along the lines of what we now know occurred at Penn State, MSU and Ohio State ever happened within the MU athletic program at any level, what would you do? Would you remain a devoted fan? Would you cancel your season tickets?

2) If you remain in the fold, why? Would you do anything or insist on any conditions in light of the offenses?

3) Would anything ever drive you away from your fandom or loyalty to MU?

Special thanks to anyone who goes to the trouble of replying. I have no preconceived notion of what these replies might be. If I placed this question in the incorrect place, apologies. If it must be moved, I understand. I just hope people see it.

Take care.

- John Scott Lewinski

[4everwarriors]

For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.

[awilhelmscream]

For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.

Same and wouldn’t think twice about it either.

[Dr. Blackheart]

For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.

So you don’t go to church/temple/mosque?  Your kids were never in the Scouts or sports organizations?  You dropped out of the ADA? You don’t vote?  You don’t go to the movies?

Fact is, bad people make good organizations bad.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

I left the church.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I still shake my head when I see people wearing Penn State Football apparel.

[tower912]

The answer to the question is layered.     Many of us have stayed in the Catholic Church.   Many of us have left.   I think there is an equivalency there and I think you have at least a partial answer.    Remember, there were alleged sexual assaults at Marquette a few years ago.  Not systemic like OSU, PSU, MSU.   Student on student with alcohol and former relationships involved.    That did not cause many to leave behind their MU fandom, but it did cost a lot of people their jobs and caused a complete rewriting of MU's policies. 

 Hell, Marquette survived Dahmer.

I see fans at those schools able to compartmentalize the actions of a few with the fans' love of the school sports teams.    My best guess is if something long term and systemic was discovered at Marquette, there would be those who would give up their fandom.   There are those who would compartmentalize their fandom for the basketball team away from the actions of a few bad people.    Just like at the other schools.     

A great topic.     Thanks.     And, learn to spell 'theoretical'.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

You're a journalist, but you can't spell theoretical?

[real chili 83]

Two words

Notre Dame

[Coleman]

For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.

Same. It kind of makes my brain hurt thinking about the amount of mental gymnastics it would take to remain a PSU fan after everything that went down.

[Coleman]

So you don’t go to church/temple/mosque?  Your kids were never in the Scouts or sports organizations?  You dropped out of the ADA? You don’t vote?  You don’t go to the movies?

Fact is, bad people make good organizations bad.

I've all but given up on the RCC in the last few years. I think it might be beyond redemption. I still consider myself catholic (small C), but not in any organized sense. I attend mass here and there. But my dollars go to other charitable organizations with more transparent and trustworthy governance. Donating to MU will probably be the closest I ever come to financially supporting Catholicism again.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

For me, it would depend on if those responsible were still with the program and if they were, were they properly held accountable? I might stop watching games if current coaches or current players were involved and wouldn't watch again until they were held accountable. If leadership was involved, I would withhold my (very limited) financial support until they were held accountable. But if the offending parties were no longer present, I would probably continue to support the school but be vocal in my desire to have school take responsibility for past failings.

[warriorchick]

For me, in all seriousness, if anything resembling the magnitude of crimes and cover up ever occurred at my alma mater, I'd be finished supporting the university, on every level.

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with 4Never.

The only thing that would get me to come back is if they got rid of literally everyone even remotely involved or aware of the scandal and the coverup.  The president, the BOD, the provost, the athletic director, all of the coaches, everyone.  They would also have to permanently break ties with every booster and donor involved.

And regarding the other question, I don't attend church anymore.  I consider myself a Catholic, but I can't support the current leadership structure.  They would have to do the same thing I described above, which wouldn't leave enough people available to run the organization.  Hmmm, maybe they should let women become priests to help....

[Galway Eagle]

There would be a long pause on my fandom. But once the admin were gone, players, coaches, etc I believe that I would return.

If I was a fan of the school and not an alum I'm unsure I'd return though.

[GooooMarquette]

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I agree with 4Never.

The only thing that would get me to come back is if they got rid of literally everyone even remotely involved or aware of the scandal and the coverup.  The president, the BOD, the provost, the athletic director, all of the coaches, everyone.  They would also have to permanently break ties with every booster and donor involved.

Ditto. Some things are more important than wins and losses.

[MU82]

My honest answer is this:

I don't know.

I'd have to see what happened. I'd have to know if everybody involved had been purged. I'd have to judge if Marquette completely cleaned up the mess. And I'd have to then look inside myself to decide if I were satisfied enough with all of that to remain a fan of the basketball team.

The Catholic Church's atrocities go back decades and decades -- a history of abuse that dates back far longer and involves far more individuals than the cases at the institutions you mentioned. And, by many accounts, abuses are still going on to this day. Yet most of my Marquette brothers and sisters who frequent this site have not left the church. Even some who did break with the formal organization still consider themselves Catholic.

I am not here to judge them; goodness knows, I wouldn't want to be judged. I'm just saying that giving up something that one feels a strong part of is easier said (in a hypothetical situation) than done (in real life).

Hopefully, we'll never have to find out what all of us really would do.

[Cheeks]

It depends how deep, who is involved, etc.  if it was one or two people, I’m not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.  If it is 20 or 30 people, includes the very top, etc, that’s different.

I also think that those that say they would walk away may do so, but might also come back 10 or 20 years later....time heals many things.  Procedures, processes, accountability, so on are put into,place to prevent repeats.

I believe the reverse questions for the author are appropriate.  If the university or coaches, etc, did a bunch of crooked, slimy, BS crap but got people their beloved run and a national title only to have it come crashing down later, would it be worth it to them?  Just win baby

[Dr. Blackheart]

For me, it would depend on if those responsible were still with the program and if they were, were they properly held accountable? I might stop watching games if current coaches or current players were involved and wouldn't watch again until they were held accountable. If leadership was involved, I would withhold my (very limited) financial support until they were held accountable. But if the offending parties were no longer present, I would probably continue to support the school but be vocal in my desire to have school take responsibility for past failings.

+1.  While athletics or the RCC get the headlines, the justice (or lack of it) was handled exactly the the same in literally thousands of organizations. It’s not these organizations that are necessarily bad, it was the complete lack or disregard of justice for the victims. But, that was the way things were handled or tolerated, with even nods from law enforcement.

Fortunately, the pendulum has swung hard toward the criminal or civil justice route, a route that was in existence for decades but was summarily ignored.  Society is in a better place. If organizations haven’t learned, they don’t deserve our support. Let’s not pretend it’s only a few, though.  It was pervasive.

[Shooter McGavin]

1) isolated event that is well taken care of by administration I would have no issue remaining a fan and have already done so.

2) systemic problem with administration involved, I would be done until they cleaned house.

[source?]

There would be a long pause on my fandom. But once the admin were gone, players, coaches, etc I believe that I would return.

If I was a fan of the school and not an alum I'm unsure I'd return though.

This is about where I am. That said, in my limited experience with non-alum fans they have tended to care less about cura personalis and more about stacking up wins. Give the ones I know a year or two and a few NCAA runs and they'd be back.

[WarriorFan]

I'd be gone as a fan with the only possibility of return after there was a complete removal of all administration, coaching, athletic department, etc... whether they were involved or not.  Examples to support this:

- I have not been to or watched a professional baseball game since the 1994 baseball strike.  Never thought those guys should have been so arrogant or the system so broken to allow the players to take a product away from the fans.

- I knew what was going on in RCC from about age 10.  Multiple local parishes where I grew up were affected, multiple friends targeted.  I went to MU because it was the best fit school for me but never got the RCC thing.  Managed to take great courses on history of religion and Atheism for my mandatory religion credits and still enjoy the knowledge I gained in those courses.  But not a Catholic.

- When businesses I invest in are found to be corrupt (Siemens, for example) I remove my investment.

So, I vote with my money, I vote with my feet, I vote with my viewership, and in the event the corruption was in MU athletics I'd behave the same way that I have with other, similar situations.

[Not A Serious Person]

I reject the question ...


Who abandoned support of MU over the sexual assault allegations during the Buzz years?  Answer ... no one. In fact, and some on this board, that are talking about their moral code in this very thread, got angry that the Chicago Tribune besmirched MU's reputation by publishing the allegations on page one.

It's how the world works ... both the abstract comments of absolute morality and the reality that most would accept any PR level of punishment as good enough and then "rally around the flag" and then watch MU basketball set attendance records.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

The answer to the question is layered.     Many of us have stayed in the Catholic Church.   Many of us have left.   I think there is an equivalency there and I think you have at least a partial answer.    Remember, there were alleged sexual assaults at Marquette a few years ago.  Not systemic like OSU, PSU, MSU.   Student on student with alcohol and former relationships involved.    That did not cause many to leave behind their MU fandom, but it did cost a lot of people their jobs and caused a complete rewriting of MU's policies. 

 Hell, Marquette survived Dahmer.

I see fans at those schools able to compartmentalize the actions of a few with the fans' love of the school sports teams.    My best guess is if something long term and systemic was discovered at Marquette, there would be those who would give up their fandom.   There are those who would compartmentalize their fandom for the basketball team away from the actions of a few bad people.    Just like at the other schools.     

A great topic.     Thanks.     And, learn to spell 'theoretical'.

He did spell it correctly in the body of the post.  Message board spelling police, smh

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Bad stuff happens.  If an organization identifies it and them removes it with impunity and attempts to reach out and comfort and make good with any victims, then they have done exact what they should.  Is it a shame, is it unfortnate? Yes. However, i cannot hold ill will towards an organization that does exactly what it should when it discovers a bad apple.

[Not A Serious Person]

I reject the question part 2 ...

When Tom Copa's drunk driving killed an MU Volleyball player in 1985, does anyone recall the demands that the basketball program was rotten and needed wholesale gutting?  Who abandoned MU support because of this? (answer, no one)

I remember the incident well.  There was a dead girl and the concern was how it would affect Copa's rebound production in the next game.

Did you even know this happened before I mentioned it here?  Can you support the program now that you are aware this happened?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-04-8503240049-story.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-12-19-8503280051-story.html