MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU Avenue on January 22, 2011, 07:59:14 PM
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I watch and I watch yet I struggle to determine Junior Cadougan’s strengths. What are they?
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dribble penetration......finds the open man.....makes good decisions in passing the ball.....high assist to turnover ratio.....oh, and he also brings his heart.
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dribble penetration......finds the open man.....makes good decisions in passing the ball.....high assist to turnover ratio.....oh, and he also brings his heart.
Wow, how have I missed that Junior Cadougan brings so much to the court, including heart?
I am not sure how one determines “heart,” but I am not seeing the rest of it, murobrob.
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I watch and I watch yet I struggle to determine Junior Cadougan’s strengths. What are they?
Do you actually watch the games?
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I respect your opinion MU Ave.....he has not been an offensive juggernaut. But, I have seen a lot of progress this season and trust the dude at pg running the offense.
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He has more game than Vander right now.
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Best ball distributor on the team--no comparison.
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He has more game than Vander right now.
+1
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He's a good backup point guard, and slowly improving.
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There were already two topics about Cadougan's game on the first page of topics... or was this just intended as a dig at him? ?-(
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Junior had a solid game tonight.
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Junior is an asset to the team when he is on the floor. I'm not sure how you've been missing that
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How can you miss JC's contributions tonight?
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How can you miss JC's contributions tonight?
Many here are doing the expected by providing a lot of unsubstantiated support -- and applause -- for Junior Cadougan.
Please be very specific about his strengths, because all I see is an inconsistent-but-OK basketball player who seems almost incapable of scoring.
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He creates shots for others, he attacks the basket and makes layups, and he makes free throws...now. He also can't make a shot from the field other than a layup. And he has gotten better as the season has progressed.
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Many here are doing the expected by providing a lot of unsubstantiated support -- and applause -- for Junior Cadougan.
Please be very specific about his strengths, because all I see is an inconsistent-but-OK basketball player who seems almost incapable of scoring.
I dont think anyone is saying he is a god... He has improved considerably though. Agree with WarriorH
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I wish we had Acker. Or Mbakwe. Ackwe.
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What does Junior Cadougan bring to the court, especially on offense?
What happens between high school and college that players such as Cadougan become so anemic?
I know there are many here who insist that Cadougan brings much to the court. I still struggle to see any of it.
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What happens between high school and college that players such as Cadougan become so anemic?
MU Ave- I ask this question all the time...and it is absolutely is a fair question. I believe in HS, Junior was the type of PG that ALWAYS had the ball in his hands. He was quite a bit bigger/stronger than a lot of other PGs (a little 'overweight' perhaps) but really used that to his advantage in HS. He used his body so well to shield defenders and get to the hoop against seemingly smaller/weaker guards (Off Topic- but if you were at Midnight Madness he also did this to Reggie Smith the entire night during the scrimmage). The BE is much different...as he is finding out...getting blocked, tougher to finish in the lane, etc. As far as your question about HS to college....I have kind of thought the same thing regarding Junior too. I think the answer is that the learning curve is different for everyone - and i dont mean this as an 'easy way out'. It has been hard for Junior b/c he isnt the biggest/fastest PG out there anymore.
I think Junior is a good back-up point guard this year. He can come in provide a spark. At times he looks a little shaky with the ball...but I think that will continue to come with his confidence. He is 100% improved from the beginning of the year and I think he is only going to get better (not proclaiming him to be a NBA pick) and become a good D-1 point guard.
Offensively, I'll admit, at times he can be a liability as far as scoring goes. But do we honestly think Buzz doesnt know that? But if we get Junior in the game with scorers like Crowder/DJO/Butler...theres no doubt he will find them...and he will deliver the ball in a way to help them score.
Side Note- I do think that we tend to look our "worst" offensively when Blue and Junior are both in the game at the same time...at least at this point in their careers.
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What does Junior Cadougan bring to the court, especially on offense?
What happens between high school and college that players such as Cadougan become so anemic?
I know there are many here who insist that Cadougan brings much to the court. I still struggle to see any of it.
Do you really not understand the difference in maturity and talent between high school and college basketball? He's playing against MEN now. If anything "happened" to him it's that he's returning from a devastating, potentially career-ending injury that has slowed his development.
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My recollection is that we made our biggest run in the second half with blue and junior on the floor. Junior has improved to a solid backup PG. Much better than Mo was at this point. He will be a solid starter the next two years.
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Junior has excellent court vision, which is the best thing he brings to the court. He is an OK defender, he anticipates well and can harrass a bit and get in the passing lanes.
His deficiencies are shooting and lateral quickness. The first can be fixed, not so sure about the second. Levance Fields was a very nice player with those deficiencies, though he was physically much, much stronger than Junior.
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What does Junior Cadougan bring to the court, especially on offense?
What happens between high school and college that players such as Cadougan become so anemic?
I know there are many here who insist that Cadougan brings much to the court. I still struggle to see any of it.
So, you're just going to continue to repeat the question? There've been multiple responses to your repeated question, yet that is not enough for you. He brings multiple things aside from scoring. If, to you, scoring is the only thing that is required for being a good offensive player, then you are right, Junior, to you, is and will be a terrible offensive player. If you keep searching for what he brings to the game offensively and keep coming back to the ppg category, then yes, you will be underwhelmed.
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Wow, how have I missed that Junior Cadougan brings so much to the court, including heart?
I am not sure how one determines “heart,” but I am not seeing the rest of it, murobrob.
You're a buffoon. Junior had a great game last night.
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I wish we had Acker. Or Mbakwe. Ackwe.
I wish we had Mo Lucas, Butch Lee, Doc Rivers, Tony Smith, Jim Mac, Wade and Novak.
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Do you really not understand the difference in maturity and talent between high school and college basketball? He's playing against MEN now. If anything "happened" to him it's that he's returning from a devastating, potentially career-ending injury that has slowed his development.
I think the "inexperience" and "maturity" excuse is hogwash.
First, we have had a long history of seeing players contribute from day one--point guards especially--Dominic James, Tony Miller, Cordell Henry.
And the point guards that were not starters in their first game of their freshman year were certainly effective at the start of their second year, and didn't start because they were 2nd on the depth chart--Travis Diener behind Henry, Aaron Hutchins behind Miller.
We're now in the middle of Cadougan's sophomore year, and he's still being treated with kid gloves with a "he's really only a freshman" excuse--as if our history is that it takes our PGs a couple of years to adjust to college ball.
Cadougan didn't miss 52 weeks with his injury--he went out in mid-September, and was back in the lineup by late January--only about 14 weeks missed. He practiced with the team in late January and all through February and March, participated in all the normal post-season and summer activities. Yes, that put him behind other players in his class, but not by a full year as so many seem to think.
I don't know what the issue is. Maybe he just had a lower ceiling than expected. Maybe his injury caused irreparable harm to his game and he'll never be able to rise to the expectations set by our PGs over the last 20 years. Maybe he hasn't been unleashed yet.
I don't know what the real issue is, but chalking it up to inexperience and maturity isn't consistent with our 20+ year history with point guards.
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You're a buffoon. Junior had a great game last night.
I'm not sure he had a great game, but he was good enough that MU made their charge when he was at the point. His ball handling does tend to go south near the end of a game, though.
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First, we have had a long history of seeing players contribute from day one--point guards especially--Dominic James, Tony Miller, Cordell Henry.
This list has a player with a long NBA career, the number 2 all-time scorer in MU history.
Was this the expectation coming in?
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20 minutes
0 for 2 from the field
2 for 4 from the line
zero assists
2 turnovers
Has the bar been set so low on his expectations that that line score qualifies as a "great game?"
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Has the bar been set so low on his expectations that that line score qualifies as a "great game?"
Not a great game, but we did have our run with him in the game. He gets better each time out. A good backup is what he is now. I like what I see in terms of his maturation. He's becoming more assertive, trying to get to the hoop. You can see him actively adjusting his game and figuring out what he can be. Its actually interesting to watch.
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20 minutes
0 for 2 from the field
2 for 4 from the line
zero assists
2 turnovers
Has the bar been set so low on his expectations that that line score qualifies as a "great game?"
Well. that's where many have set the bar for Otule
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Well. that's where many have set the bar for Otule
Just think, Junior and Otule will probably be in MU's starting five next year.
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Just think, Junior and Otule will probably be in MU's starting five next year.
Outle is now.
Vander and DJO will be the starting back court next year.
Crowder and TBD in the front court (Jamil Wilson?).
Dodds interviewed Benford on the other site and he says that Jamil Wilson can handle the ball so well that they can use him at PG in certain situations.
How about this for size 6' 7" PG!
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Why did Buzz play Cadugan and Blue during crunch time when we need to score? Buzz lost this game for the team. Why would he play two players who cannot score???? It seems like Buzz is single handedly throwing the games this year. Don't get it. It doesn't make sense why he isn't playing his best offensive and defensive players. Why sit DJO so long? Why sit Buycks so long? Why sit Crower? Why not play Otule and Gardner more? They can score and defend the other team's "bigs." Buzz is losing the games big time!
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Outle is now.
Vander and DJO will be the starting back court next year.
Crowder and TBD in the front court (Jamil Wilson?).
I said probably. I would love to see Vander as the starting point guard, but we'll see what Buzz thinks. Wilson will take Butler's spot.
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Otule's performance has been nothing to write home about either lately. How a 6'11" 260 lber. could grab a rebound only once every 8.3 minutes and shoot just 7 of 23 from the field in BE play is beyond me.
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Why did Buzz play Cadugan and Blue during crunch time when we need to score? Buzz lost this game for the team. Why would he play two players who cannot score???? It seems like Buzz is single handedly throwing the games this year. Don't get it. It doesn't make sense why he isn't playing his best offensive and defensive players. Why sit DJO so long? Why sit Buycks so long? Why sit Crower? Why not play Otule and Gardner more? They can score and defend the other team's "bigs." Buzz is losing the games big time!
Pretty easy on Cadougan. he is the best passer we have. If we need to score, he will get it to the open man
I agree that Otule and Gardner should split the time at Post. That is not Crowder or Fulce's position.
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Otule's performance has been nothing to write home about either lately. How a 6'11" 260 lber. could grab a rebound only once every 8.3 minutes and shoot just 7 of 23 from the field in BE play is beyond me.
That was my point. Their box scores are very poor and will probably be in next year's starting lineup.
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Why did Buzz play Cadugan and Blue during crunch time when we need to score?
Second half
Junior subs in for DJO at 14:26 down 48-44
Junior subs out at 7:33 UP 60-55
(Blue was on the floor this entire time.)
So let's review....with Junior and Vander on the floor at the same time, MU went on a 16-7 run over an almost seven minute time frame. After Junior subed out (for DB), we gave up five straight and the game quickly ended after that.
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We stunk when we played Blue and Cadugan together. We should play our best players when it comes to crunch time. We lost our momentum. Blue and Cadugan can not score. Not really sure what they can do right now.
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We stunk when we played Blue and Cadugan together. We should play our best players when it comes to crunch time. We lost our momentum. Blue and Cadugan can not score. Not really sure what they can do right now.
Did you read one post above? Those facts make your statements wrong.
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our best lineups last night always had junior on the floor. If you watched the game, I'm not sure how you could dispute that.
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I dont' care about JC's stats. I was at the game. He played a great game. He was one of the few players who wasn't out of control on breaks. I like him at the point.
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I dont' care about JC's stats. I was at the game. He played a great game. He was one of the few players who wasn't out of control on breaks. I like him at the point.
A point guard who has no assists and 2 points (from free throws) in 20 minutes did not play a great game. He may have played with energy, enthusiasm, and hustle, but it is not a great performance.
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he's Canadian, we should be happy he knows what basketball is eh
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He's another guard, along with Blue, who can't shoot to save their asses yet play significant minutes. Couple that with two complete stiffs in the posts and the talent level isn't good enough to compete with the upper half of the BE. Wouldn't matter if Phil Jackson were the coach.
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Cadougan played a good game last night. He played his ass off, although what he did didn't show in teh box scores. He and Blue were awesome on defense. Anyone realize that when DJO came in to sub Blue with 7 minutes left, he lost his man on baseline screens almost on 3 straight UCONN posessions? I love DJO, but I don't think he adjusted as well as Blue did to the constant screens.
But in our society we reward results, not effort. The team, coaches included, lost the game last night for multiple reasons. But to single out Junior and Blue is just plain stupid.
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You're a buffoon. Junior had a great game last night.
PuertoRicanNightmare, good to see you presenting smart, well-reasoned, logical replies here that do not include personal attacks.
You say I am a buffoon?
I am? Why?
You insist that “Junior had a great game” against Connecticut?
A great game? How so?
Always good to include name-calling in your hyperbolic replies, PuertoRicanNightmare. It brings great credibility.
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He's another guard, along with Blue, who can't shoot to save their asses yet play significant minutes. Couple that with two complete stiffs in the posts and the talent level isn't good enough to compete with the upper half of the BE. Wouldn't matter if Phil Jackson were the coach.
So your complaint is MU needs a better offense. I thought we ranked among the best in the country. I thought the problem was defense.
Tough to keep up
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Second half
Junior subs in for DJO at 14:26 down 48-44
Junior subs out at 7:33 UP 60-55
(Blue was on the floor this entire time.)
So let's review....with Junior and Vander on the floor at the same time, MU went on a 16-7 run over an almost seven minute time frame. After Junior subed out (for DB), we gave up five straight and the game quickly ended after that.
I'm glad you got the details.
Last night I was shocked when Junior was subbed out after the under-8 media timeout. Thought he was doing well getting into the lane. He's better at dropping off passes there than anyone else on the team. And, generally, he seems to be the only one with awareness on the court (maybe not much considering the team this year).
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One of our better line-ups for making runs is with Buycks, Jr. and DJO all on the floor at the same time. You then fill with Crowder/Butler/Otule/Fulce.
While there are times small really helps, we lose something with either Crowder or Fulce in the post--not their correct position.
The small line-up above has helped us more than a few times this year for making runs.
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Cadougan played a good game last night. He played his ass off, although what he did didn't show in teh box scores. He and Blue were awesome on defense. Anyone realize that when DJO came in to sub Blue with 7 minutes left, he lost his man on baseline screens almost on 3 straight UCONN posessions? I love DJO, but I don't think he adjusted as well as Blue did to the constant screens.
But in our society we reward results, not effort. The team, coaches included, lost the game last night for multiple reasons. But to single out Junior and Blue is just plain stupid.
I saw this right away when DJO came back in and said to my friend who I sit with that we are about to get torched on defense again soon because DJO was atrocious on defense last night. And with his Jerel McNeal like head down black hole like drives, he was much more a detriment last night the an asset. We played our best ball with Blue and Vander on court because they were MUCH better defensively than the rest of guards save Dwight. Everyone here is bitching about offensive stats when we actually lost this game on the defensive end.
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DJO started so hot, but sometimes when he does this he just feels like he is Kobe or something, because he stops letting the game come to him. The ball stalls in his hands often.
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He's another guard, along with Blue, who can't shoot to save their asses yet play significant minutes. Couple that with two complete stiffs in the posts and the talent level isn't good enough to compete with the upper half of the BE. Wouldn't matter if Phil Jackson were the coach.
Agree. Quite frankly, the "talent" level that so many posters claim we have has not been visible on the court. In fact, it seems many lack the "talent" to even get off the frigging bench.
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One of our better line-ups for making runs is with Buycks, Jr. and DJO all on the floor at the same time. You then fill with Crowder/Butler/Otule/Fulce.
While there are times small really helps, we lose something with either Crowder or Fulce in the post--not their correct position.
The small line-up above has helped us more than a few times this year for making runs.
Willie, what did you think of DG last night? I was actually pleased. He was actually moving his feet on defense and attempting to make the proper rotation, relative to his man when the ball got reversed. He needs to better use his bulk on offense, as going straight up got his shot blocked by the beanpole. Also needs a countermove for when they cover his 'dribble-right-drag-turn-and-go-strong-over-the-left-shoulder' move. But there was hope.
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JC did have a "great game" if you take into considerationg the Canadian exchange rate.
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Junior is not a great offensive player but he doesn't make many bad decisions and has a decent handle.
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Absolutely nothing
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First, we have had a long history of seeing players contribute from day one--point guards especially--Dominic James, Tony Miller, Cordell Henry.
Sorry but Cordell Henry was not very good as a freshman. I remember thinking how are we going to make it with this guy. And remember we were playing in the great Midwest which is NOTHING like playing in the BE. And Junior really is a freshman. Last year was a complete wash out for him. Dominic - no question a unique talent. Tony Miller. Put Mac, Key and Loterman on this team so Junior only has to feed the post or hit the open shooter, put them in A10 or the Horizon League (equal to the Great Midwest back then) and I think Junior would be putting up fine numbers.
Different situation. We're in the big leagues now. Except in rare cases you win with upperclassmen
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Cordell's first year was Conf USA, was it not? 98-99…
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Sorry but Cordell Henry was not very good as a freshman.
Cordell averaged 7ppg, 3 apg, 2 rpg, shot 76% from the FT line and 33% from the field (32% from deep) as a freshman....and was good enough to play 28 mins per game, starting 20. That's a healthy line for a true freshman, head/shoulders above Junior, who will never be anything but a role player. Honestly, Cordell was faster & more athletic, he was a better shooter, a better passer and a better defender than Junior is or ever will be. Frankly, this program has a PG problem for the first time in decades. Junior is not the player everybody thought he would be.
=cordell&s[]=henry]http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/cordell_henry?s[]=cordell&s[]=henry (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/cordell_henry?s[)
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Anyone who can't see steady improvement from junior is blind.
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Willie, what did you think of DG last night? I was actually pleased. He was actually moving his feet on defense and attempting to make the proper rotation, relative to his man when the ball got reversed. He needs to better use his bulk on offense, as going straight up got his shot blocked by the beanpole. Also needs a countermove for when they cover his 'dribble-right-drag-turn-and-go-strong-over-the-left-shoulder' move. But there was hope.
Gardner did not do anything in his 3 minutes. Otule did very little also in his time out there, even missing some FT's. We are hurting in the big category.
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Absolutely nothing
And you add absolutely nothing if you cannot see that he is the best ball distributor we have.
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You're answering a question I asked about a game two weeks ago. DG did not look good last night. CO at least blocked a couple of shots and kept asking for the ball, even when he was missing.
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Anyone who can't see steady improvement from junior is blind.
He is improving...no doubt. But he's a role player not the prototypical 'Marquette point guard' we've grown accustomed to in the last two decades.
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He starts next year and I think he should be starting this year. Let him get the ball to the other 4 and get them rolling. Have Buycks come in with Blue so that you don't have to worry about Cadougan and Blue together. Hopefully, Blue can play some 1 next year and JJ progresses enough that he can play some 2.
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nm
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Cordell averaged 7ppg, 3 apg, 2 rpg, shot 76% from the FT line and 33% from the field (32% from deep) as a freshman....and was good enough to play 28 mins per game, starting 20. That's a healthy line for a true freshman, head/shoulders above Junior, who will never be anything but a role player. Honestly, Cordell was faster & more athletic, he was a better shooter, a better passer and a better defender than Junior is or ever will be. Frankly, this program has a PG problem for the first time in decades. Junior is not the player everybody thought he would be.
=cordell&s[]=henry]http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/cordell_henry?s[]=cordell&s[]=henry (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/cordell_henry?s[)
I'll respectfully disagree here.
I like Cordell as an upperclassman, but he had no left hand early on (or ever for that matter), played on a mediocre team (that was offensively challenged) and dominated the ball. MU dribbled around a lot in those days looking for Wardle or Bargen to get open. Sometimes Cliff in the corner. That was about it.
Player A TEAM MIN PTS FG% AST A/T 3P% STL Reb
18.90 2.70 0.38 2.90 2.03 0.14 0.70 1.70
Player B TEAM MIN PTS FG% AST A/T 3P% Stl Reb
28.80 7.20 0.33 3.20 1.26 0.32 1.00 2.60
It's pretty easy to know who is whom (did I use "whom" correctly??).
Cordell has better numbers, but when you factor in the strength of the teams, schedules and min., I don't think you can say that Cordell was destined for greatness while Junior will only be a role player.
If you gave Junior 28min/game on the 1998 team, and let him dribble it around for 25 seconds every possession, I'm confident he could find 7pts per game*, which is really the biggest difference here.
*Given that Deane's teams only scored 50pts/game, maybe that 7pts is actually worth like 12 in Buzz's offense, I dunno.
It may sound crazy because they haven't played well overall, but I really like Blue and Junior's upsides. They have shown really nice spurts that can probably be reigned in a little with maturity, practice and good coaching.
Blue looked like the worst and best player on the floor in the same 30 seconds. He's sneaky big, gets to a lot of balls, and is hard to stay in front of. He's just not that strong in the lane, has no touch, and needs some patience. But, those are things that can come with maturity and coaching. I think he will be a very good college guard.
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I like Junior. I think he will be a real solid player with a chance of being a really great PG. This is his first year really playing and you can tell he definitely has great court vision and he is an accurate passer. Offensively, I don't mind seeing guys pass up open jumpers like Junior. If he is not confident about his shooting, for one reason or another, then I don't want him shooting it.
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It's pretty easy to know who is whom (did I use "whom" correctly??).
Actually, I think it should be "who," as it follows the linking verb "is" and therefore requires the nominative case form.
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Cordell averaged 7ppg, 3 apg, 2 rpg, shot 76% from the FT line and 33% from the field (32% from deep) as a freshman....and was good enough to play 28 mins per game, starting 20. That's a healthy line for a true freshman, head/shoulders above Junior, who will never be anything but a role player. Honestly, Cordell was faster & more athletic, he was a better shooter, a better passer and a better defender than Junior is or ever will be. Frankly, this program has a PG problem for the first time in decades. Junior is not the player everybody thought he would be.
Don't forget - Cordell Henry was playing in Conference USA on a team that never even made the NCAA tournments. Quite a bit different playing on a likely NCAA bid team in against BigEAST teams.
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Sorry but Cordell Henry was not very good as a freshman. I remember thinking how are we going to make it with this guy. And remember we were playing in the great Midwest which is NOTHING like playing in the BE. And Junior really is a freshman. Last year was a complete wash out for him. Dominic - no question a unique talent. Tony Miller. Put Mac, Key and Loterman on this team so Junior only has to feed the post or hit the open shooter, put them in A10 or the Horizon League (equal to the Great Midwest back then) and I think Junior would be putting up fine numbers.
Different situation. We're in the big leagues now. Except in rare cases you win with upperclassmen
I think you vastly underestimate the Great Midwest.
Cincy and Louisville were both stronger than the mid-level BE teams they are now--elite teams like like Pitt today DePaul and Memphis at the time were at least equivalent to an above average Big East team. St. Louis had a couple of poor seasons, but for the final two years they had Larry Hughes, which probably put them at the equivalent of a Georgetown or Villanova today. UAB at the time was always decent--equivalent to an above average Big East team.
Dayton (in the league only two years) was really the only pushover--equivalent to DePaul today.
In its first two seasons, the league sent 3 of 6 teams to the NCAA tournament, and 4 of 7 in 1994.
No way it was the equivalent of a Horizon or A10.
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Don't forget - Cordell Henry was playing in Conference USA on a team that never even made the NCAA tournments. Quite a bit different playing on a likely NCAA bid team in against BigEAST teams.
In our division, Henry faced 7 games against NCAA opponents in conference his freshman year. 2 each against Cincy, Louisville and Charlotte, and once against UAB.
Cincinnati was an elite-level team that year--ranked in the top 5 for much of the season.
Against those 7 NCAA teams, Henry maintained his 7.0 ppg scoring average, and actually stepped up his minutes, averaging 34 mpg in those 7 games.
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In our division, Henry faced 7 games against NCAA opponents in conference his freshman year. 2 each against Cincy, Louisville and Charlotte, and once against UAB.
Cincinnati was an elite-level team that year--ranked in the top 5 for much of the season.
Against those 7 NCAA teams, Henry maintained his 7.0 ppg scoring average, and actually stepped up his minutes, averaging 34 mpg in those 7 games.
To be fair, Cordell averaged 34min. per game in those games because the back up PG was Bart Miller, who was a nice kid and a great student, but clearly over his head in high level D1 hoops.
If you gave Junior 34mpg against those teams, he could probably avg. close to 7ppg.
Cordell was a nice player, But, the idea that he was miles ahead of JC at this point is a stretch.
Cordell was exciting because he could dunk, but he was not really a very effective PG as a frosh.