Author Topic: Is The Big East Too Tough? (Read 4663 times)

Tugg Speedman · « **on:** April 12, 2008, 01:38:20 AM »

Some facts (in no particular order)

* A number of objective observers speculated that Crean left for IU because the BE was too hard. It would be easier for him to win the Big Ten ("objective observers" are basketball analysts not involved with MU or IU)

* Providence has now whiffed twice on hiring a new coach (Ford of Umass is the latest to say no). Again "objective observers" are saying they are scared of the BE.

* Either Fr. Wild or Cottingham said that some HC candidates told them the BE was too tough.

*Pre-season polls have 4 BE teams in the top 10 (g-Town, ND, Uconn and 'Ville) and as many as 9 in the top 25.

* It is possible that the BE could send as many as 10 teams to the tourney next season (the record is 8 set by the BE set this year).

Considering all this ...

1) Is the BE too tough?
2) Can a conference be too tough? If so, what does "too tough" exactly mean? Does it mean you're not consider "not good" because of a 15 and 14 record despite the fact that next season a BE team could lose 14 games all to ranked teams?

Thoughts?

Markusquette · « **Reply #1 on:** April 12, 2008, 01:51:37 AM »

1) There is no doubt that the big east is the most talented and competitive conference in the Nation, but the fact that 8 teams made it to the tourney last year just shows that almost every team in the BE can compete at a high level and beat each other regardless of ranking. Just look at Pitt getting through some great BE teams in the BE tourney.

2) I think it is hard to say whether a conference can be "too tough". I mean, nearly every team in the BE competed at a high level which goes to show you that they belong there. Of course, there will be some teams that can't get over the .500 mark, but every conference has those teams. So, I think that the big east is the toughest to compete in, but so far many teams have proven that they can stick with their big east opponents.

From a coaching standpoint, I can understand some people being wary about coaching in the BE. Sure, you're going to go up against some great BE teams all year, and coaches want to win. If Crean doesn't think he can win more here, so be it. I want a coach who is confidant coaching a big east team. Hopefully Buzz can keep us together.

swimmer · « **Reply #2 on:** April 12, 2008, 06:29:03 AM »

The toughest thing for a coach in the BE has to be preparing to face so many different teams. In a nine or ten team league you only have to scout for 8 or 9 teams, and the gameplanning can be adapted for the multiple match-ups in a season. In the BE, it's new faces and teams nearly every game.

I also think there is some kind of natural cap on the number of NCAA tournament teams that come out of the conference. The balance and magnitude of the league pretty much ensures that the number 8 or 9 team will be close to a .500 league record. That leaves very little margin for error in the non-conference schedule. Due to the brutality of the conference season ahead, as well as the # of BE schools that don't have football to support their athletic departments, a lot of schools go for the cupcake non-conference schedule. The SOS as a whole for the conference ends up lower than the obvious top to bottom talent level would seem to indicate. The result is an 8th or 9th place team that has a marginal record and doesn't look so great on the SOS.

NCMUFan · « **Reply #3 on:** April 12, 2008, 06:52:26 AM »

Yea its tough. But its all about entertainment value that translates into revenues and exposure. Revenues from attendance, revenue from TV. Exposure from national TV. From coast to coast people know Marquette. We received a favorable seed (6) even by placing 5th in the Big East. We all complain about playing the cream puffs early in the season. Would you want also a majority of cream puffs throughout your conference schedule also? That's not what I hear when the schedule comes out every year. Epic battles between two heavy weights gets people glued to the TV (ratings) and people in the arenas. Sometimes we are on the losing end of the battle. But so be it.

MUinOH · « **Reply #4 on:** April 12, 2008, 09:25:18 AM »

Quote from: NCMUFan on April 12, 2008, 06:52:26 AM

We received a favorable seed (6) even by placing 5th in the Big East.

Didn't we place 6th in conference?

Tugg Speedman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 12, 2008, 09:27:19 AM »

How about the general question ... can a conference ever be too tough? If so, does next year's BE qualify?

Marquette84 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 12, 2008, 10:42:05 AM »

Quote from: MUinOH on April 12, 2008, 09:25:18 AM

Quote from: NCMUFan on April 12, 2008, 06:52:26 AM
We received a favorable seed (6) even by placing 5th in the Big East.

Didn't we place 6th in conference?

Nope--standings show us 5th (tied with WVU)
http://www.bigeast.org/standings/Standings.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=19400&SPID=11228

NavinRJohnson · « **Reply #7 on:** April 12, 2008, 10:50:22 AM »

A certain portly coach said of MU joining the Big East that it would be great for $$ and atttendance, but thought MU would struggle to compete over the long haul. I can see that argument, and I would suggest we will find out over the next couple years. To me, Crean's leaving is a bit of a red flag that he may be right, the hiring of Buzz/lack of interest on the part of other candidates is another.

THEGYMBAR · « **Reply #8 on:** April 12, 2008, 11:55:59 AM »

Long term the BE might be too tough for MU to compete on a yearly basis. The school benefits from national exposure a great deal in BE. Hiring or keeping a coach is going to be difficult in the future. I believe 95% of the reason why TC left was due to difficulty of BE. We were a very good team and finished 6th.

I do not want to see us leave BE for any reason. However, whether it is Buzz or the next guy, MU is going to have to pay a ton to have coach stay here. Luckily for MU coach is that local media gives them a lot of rope.

NCMUFan · « **Reply #9 on:** April 12, 2008, 12:06:55 PM »

We didn't exactly dominate CUSA, Great Midwest, Horizontal or whatever conference we were in before. So hey, look what we have accomplished in the Big East. Why would anyone want to take a step back on where we were?

jayhawker1 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 12, 2008, 12:25:25 PM »

It's not too tough for MU to be competitive, but it may be too tough to win a conference championship every three or four years. Winning the conference every now and then is fundamental for a premier program, and that's what MU wants. Plus, it's very hard to stay an upper tier team in a conference year in and year out without actually being the very best once in awhile -- otherwise, the program gets the rep of having peaked, and recruits start losing interest.

NCMUFan · « **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:36:05 AM »

Sorry, have to disagree. You will have to show me the stats on that one. Tradition goes far. UCLA, UNC and others have had their bumps and now on top again. UCONN, Syracuse, Pitt and Villanova are reloading. The BEAST is an ongoing aggressive conference. A tough conference attracts talent even in itself. I won't say we are better than a conference with other Catholic Universities, but we had the opportunity to get into the Big East and we have faired well. Why go back to where we have been from? It just wasn't that great.

Murffieus · « **Reply #12 on:** April 13, 2008, 04:11:24 AM »

Crean left for two main reasons----DJ was going to leave for Europe if Crean was the coach next year and Mbakwe was going to transfer if Crean was the coach. That in itself would spell only a 50-50 BE season.

Secondly, Crean didn't like the new administrative setup of Kleban and Cottingham------TC wanted a different AD (began with the letter "B" (Boerke or something like that)-----anyway there was friction there-----that's why TC burned bridges when he left-----he left in a huff!

wildbill sb · « **Reply #13 on:** April 13, 2008, 09:43:12 AM »

Quote from: Murffieus on April 13, 2008, 04:11:24 AM

Crean left for two main reasons----DJ was going to leave for Europe if Crean was the coach next year and Mbakwe was going to transfer if Crean was the coach. That in itself would spell only a 50-50 BE season.

Secondly, Crean didn't like the new administrative setup of Kleban and Cottingham------TC wanted a different AD (began with the letter "B" (Boerke or something like that)-----anyway there was friction there-----that's why TC burned bridges when he left-----he left in a huff!

That's right, and Joannie was going to divorce TC and take the kids with her and her dad was going to quit and MU was pressing him to pony up on his $100K pledge to the soccer program and, well frankly, there was just too damn much snow in Milwaukee this year.....Those are some of the other reasons he left in a huff. Honest.

wildbillsb

Marquette84 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 13, 2008, 12:10:22 PM »

Quote from: NCMUFan on April 13, 2008, 03:36:05 AM

Sorry, have to disagree. You will have to show me the stats on that one. Tradition goes far. UCLA, UNC and others have had their bumps and now on top again. UCONN, Syracuse, Pitt and Villanova are reloading. The BEAST is an ongoing aggressive conference. A tough conference attracts talent even in itself. I won't say we are better than a conference with other Catholic Universities, but we had the opportunity to get into the Big East and we have faired well. Why go back to where we have been from? It just wasn't that great.

The thing that has changed in the last 10 years or so is the willingness of the pollsters, the media, and the NCAA selection committee to pay full attention to strong teams from minor conferences.

When the best team from the A10 or the Horizon or WCC or CUSA is getting top 25 recognition, high seeds in the tournament, and become media darlings, the need for a coach to run to a conference like the Big East disappears.

This year we had:
CUSA (Memphis) 3rd
#1 BE (Georgetown) 8th
Horizon (Butler) 11th
A10 (Xavier) 12th
#2 BE (Louisville) 13th
MVC (Drake) 14th
#3 BE (Notre Dame) 15th
#4 BE (UConn) 16th
#7 BE (Pitt) 17th
Southern (Davidson) 23rd
Gonzaga (WCC) 24th
#5 BE (Marquette) 25th
#5 BE (WVU) unranked

NCMUFan · « **Reply #15 on:** April 13, 2008, 12:19:48 PM »

Was your point to show the tremendous strength of the Big East? Well, thats what I see when looking at your list. We ran to the Big East? We were lucky to be considered. Maybe thats why we did run. I live in NC. It's nice to see Marquette BB on national converage. It's the big fish in a small pond versus being a big fish in a big pond. I think you can get bigger by being a big fish in a big pond. Sorry, thats just my opinion.

Marquette84 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 13, 2008, 12:53:08 PM »

Quote from: NCMUFan on April 13, 2008, 12:19:48 PM

Was your point to show the tremendous strength of the Big East? Well, thats what I see when looking at your list. We ran to the Big East? We were lucky to be considered. Maybe thats why we did run. I live in NC. It's nice to see Marquette BB on national converage. It's the big fish in a small pond versus being a big fish in a big pond. I think you can get bigger by being a big fish in a big pond. Sorry, thats just my opinion.

The point was that the situation has changed. When we left for the Big East, you simply wouldn't find six teams from minor conferences in the top 25. The year before we left for the Big East, there were just two teams--Gonzaga and Pacific--in the top 25.

I'm not sure what your point is about getting bigger. Xavier, Gonzaga, Memphis, etc. were all getting as much press as anyone in the Big East--probably more than those outside the top 4 or 6 teams in the Big East.

Murffieus · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2008, 01:18:05 PM »

WildBill-----"domestic divorce, snow in Milwaukee, someone quitting the staff"-----i know you jest, and know that's not bridge burning stuff-----however don't you think that friction between TC and his new hirarchy (Kleban/Cottingham) could cause TC to burn a bridge with MU?

jayhawker1 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 13, 2008, 01:40:54 PM »

"show me the data..."

My point is that it's important to be in a conference where you can win a conference championship every few years.

This doesn't tell all, but if you look at the Forbes 20 most valuable basketball programs announced a couple of months ago, the 20 teams have won 59 conference championships between them. On the other hand all but one school is now in a power conference, that one very notable exception being Xavier. If Xavier had a chance to jump to the Big East, I doubt they'd take it.

Bottom line is it's best to be a big fish in a big pond, but the choice between a medium fish in a big pond and a big fish in a small pond is a tough one. Players and alumni like to be called champions at something, and an upper division finish, and even a sweet sixteen team, does not bring a championship title with it.

Between a Big East regular season or post-season championship and a sweet sixteen or even elite eight birth, I would choose the conference championships as a better indication of a program's stability.

jayhawker1 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 13, 2008, 01:45:22 PM »

Sorry, 59 conference championships in the last ten years between the 20 schools on the Forbes list.

NCMUFan · « **Reply #20 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:00:39 PM »

With that mentality, why don't we take the bottom dwellers of all those conference and form our own conference. That sounds like exciting basketball to me. Sure our fans would love it.

jayhawker1 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:36:37 PM »

They wouldn't all stay bottom dwellers would they. The ones who weren't -- yeah, the fans would love it. By that mentality St. Johns is just having a heckuva great time, complete with their empty arena, because they can claim that they are part of the Big East. I'll bet the fans for Memphis, Xavier, Gonzaga, and Drake had horrible seasons.

Marquette84 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2008, 02:51:57 PM »

Quote from: NCMUFan on April 13, 2008, 02:00:39 PM

With that mentality, why don't we take the bottom dwellers of all those conference and form our own conference. That sounds like exciting basketball to me. Sure our fans would love it.

Frankly, that's a stupid response. Nobody is suggesting that MU at this point try and form a new conference, even if it would result in the same advantages as Xavier or Gonzaga or Memphis.

This discussion was about the dearth of marquee hires among the Big East coaching ranks, and the league's attractiveness to the best coaches in the land. The fact is that there hasn't been a Big East team (with the possible exception of WVU) that has been able to bring in one of the nation's best coaches to fill a vacancy.

Not MU. Not Providence. Not Depaul. Not Seton Hall. Not Rutgers. Not Georgetown. Not South Florida. Not Pittsburgh. Not Cincinnati. Not St. Johns. If the Big East were a great way for a coach to prove his ability, it wouldn't matter what team he took over.

Is Thad Matta in the Big East? Is Billy Gillespie? Is Sean Miller? Outside of Huggins, has there been a marquee hire in the Big East? The last one may have been Pete Gillen to Providence. I don't buy Huggins as a major hire because a) he was nationally disgraced and b) went to his alma mater.

We can mock Crean for saying "It's Indiana. It's Indiana." But there is no coach out there is saying "It's the Big East. It's the Big East."

In fact, the Big East is losing coaches--Crean to Indiana. Belien to Michigan. Letaio to Virginia.

I'm not saying we should change conferences--but this ostrich like attitude that the Big East is the best and coaches are attracted to the league like flies to honey is simply not in alignment with reality. There could turn out to be a major problem for the league down the road.

mviale · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:06:50 PM »

dont get it - do we think good coaches run from the BE? The coaches from the top 8 programs could coach anywhere and are much more productive than Crean. I think we have not seen much change or big names entering this crowd as they are all stable programs.

Gtown ~ Thompson
Notre Dame ~ Brey
Louisville ~ Pitino
Uconn ~ Calhoun
WVU ~ Huggins
Pitt ~ Sweet
Villanova ~ Wright
Cuse ~ Boeheim

NCMUFan · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2008, 03:19:31 PM »

Wow, congradulations on knowing five teams out of those five conference. I don't even think I would be that good at naming any teams out of those conferences because, who cares. But rattling off the Big East teams is no problem. And congradulations to these five teams on breaking the top 25 out of fifty teams total out of those conference. Man, lets set our sites low.

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Author Topic: Is The Big East Too Tough? (Read 4663 times)

THEGYMBAR