Why Matt Heldt Will Be Great!

[Tugg Speedman]

Matt Heldt was a three-star recruit
So this year he has played in 6 sames

0 starts
37 minutes (6 minutes/game)
7 points
6 rebounds

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles

------------
Heldt's stats are similar to another three-star recruit in the first 6 games of his Freshman year

0 starts
38 minutes (6 minutes/game)
22 points
14 rebounds

This other three-star Freshman was Frank Kaminsky and his Freshman year was 2011

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/frank-kaminsky-1/gamelog/

-------------

Note, what Kaminsky did was unprecedented in college basketball history.  Not only did he have the worst Freshman/Sophomore stats for anyone ever named National Player of the Year, he far and away had the worst stats.  Arguably he was the most unlikely NPOY in college basketball history.

I'm not arguing that Heldt will be NPOY in three years (although he is on the same path as the current NPOY!), Rather all those that are projecting what Heldt will mean for this team over the next few years (some have said we need another big man for the years after Luke Graduates), big men progress at a different speed than other players.  Heldt could look the same in a year, or in two years, or he could be order of magnitude better and at Luke's level.  We just don't know and no one can make any projections about him for at least a year.

Either that or admit that if Kaminsky came to MU you would have also proclaimed him a bust after his first six games his Freshman year.

[brewcity77]

Definitely not ready to say Heldt will be the next Kaminsky...

...but this is why I'm not at all ready to give up on him yet. He's a big man that has played a handful of games and looks like he's a 6'10" twelve-year-old. He'll grow into his body and get better conditioned, and then who knows?

Guys like Ousmane Barro, Dwight Burke, and Chris Otule were pretty underwhelming as underclassmen, then developed into serviceable bigs by the time they were seniors. No idea what Matt will be, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he could become a quality starter.

And honestly...the best coaching track record Wojo has is probably his success with big men. He is a fantastic big man coach if you go by his history at Duke. I'm definitely willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to bigs.

[Tugg Speedman]

Definitely not ready to say Heldt will be the next Kaminsky...

...but this is why I'm not at all ready to give up on him yet. He's a big man that has played a handful of games and looks like he's a 6'10" twelve-year-old. He'll grow into his body and get better conditioned, and then who knows?

Guys like Ousmane Barro, Dwight Burke, and Chris Otule were pretty underwhelming as underclassmen, then developed into serviceable bigs by the time they were seniors. No idea what Matt will be, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he could become a quality starter.

And honestly...the best coaching track record Wojo has is probably his success with big men. He is a fantastic big man coach if you go by his history at Duke. I'm definitely willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to bigs.

On the highlighted comment above.  Ive watched him closely at the last two games (I was at both) and when he comes in he also seems to be at the point of hyperventilating.  He looks like his heart is racing at 180 bpm and he seems to be trying to be perfect or trying to make the great play.  Hence all the fouls.  Once he gets some seasoning and calms down a bit, and plays within himself, he will play much better.

[WarriorFan]

I also like his shooting form.  He has good form.  He's not a Dork like a Roman Mueller, he just needs time to grow into his body.

[tower912]

Great?   We will see.    I predict that he will be a more than serviceable big by the time he graduates.    Right now, he looks like one should expect a non-future lottery pick freshman big to look.    A little slow, a little mechanical, thinking an awful lot and not just playing.   Patience is a virtue.   He will contribute from time to time this year and be just fine by the time Luke graduates. 

[Herman Cain]

Matt needs as many minutes as possible against the cupcakes. Also if we are winning big or getting blown out in conference, he should get as many minutes as possible in those. This year is a learning year. Give him a full year of Todd's strength and conditioning ,and learning the college game ,and he will be fine.  I think he will be on a slow steady upward trajectory.

[MuMark]

Comparing him to Kaminsky because they both did very little as Freshmen is beyond silly.

Let's just hope he can become a decent college player.

[rocket surgeon]

the guy strokes a nice free throw.  he's calm and not rattled by the large forums.  he's acting like he's been there.  does all this mean he's gonna be another frankie?  nope, but i like where he is.  i think he's in the right place and he seems comfortable with his role, so far.

i do remember watching frank in his first few games-he would be wide open underneath and the guys would just ignore him like they were under strict orders NOT to throw the ball to him.  he also looked much more clutzy at that point-obviously came a long way

[Stretchdeltsig]

Held will do fine.  We are lucky that he has time to develop behind Fish and Henry. 

[Lennys Tap]

1. Other than minutes, their stats aren't similar. Kaminsky had more than 3x the points and 2x the rebounds.

2. Even if they were similar less than 40 minutes of stats wouldn't mean much.

[brandx]

Matt Heldt was a three-star recruit
So this year he has played in 6 sames

0 starts
37 minutes (6 minutes/game)
7 points
6 rebounds

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles

------------
Heldt's stats are similar to another three-star recruit in the first 6 games of his Freshman year

0 starts
38 minutes (6 minutes/game)
22 points
14 rebounds

This other three-star Freshman was Frank Kaminsky and his Freshman year was 2011

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/frank-kaminsky-1/gamelog/

-------------

Note, what Kaminsky did was unprecedented in college basketball history.  Not only did he have the worst Freshman/Sophomore stats for anyone ever named National Player of the Year, he far and away had the worst stats.  Arguably he was the most unlikely NPOY in college basketball history.

I'm not arguing that Heldt will be NPOY in three years (although he is on the same path as the current NPOY!), Rather all those that are projecting what Heldt will mean for this team over the next few years (some have said we need another big man for the years after Luke Graduates), big men progress at a different speed than other players.  Heldt could look the same in a year, or in two years, or he could be order of magnitude better and at Luke's level.  We just don't know and no one can make any projections about him for at least a year.

Either that or admit that if Kaminsky came to MU you would have also proclaimed him a bust after his first six games his Freshman year.

One of your biggest reaches ever (and there have been many).

Just a silly, silly comparison. There is nothing similar about their games and the final results will bring on no comparisons.

They are both tall and white, though. That is the only true comparison.

[wadesworld]

Matt Heldt was a three-star recruit
So this year he has played in 6 sames

0 starts
37 minutes (6 minutes/game)
7 points
6 rebounds

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles

------------
Heldt's stats are similar to another three-star recruit in the first 6 games of his Freshman year

0 starts
38 minutes (6 minutes/game)
22 points
14 rebounds

This other three-star Freshman was Frank Kaminsky and his Freshman year was 2011

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/frank-kaminsky-1/gamelog/

-------------

Note, what Kaminsky did was unprecedented in college basketball history.  Not only did he have the worst Freshman/Sophomore stats for anyone ever named National Player of the Year, he far and away had the worst stats.  Arguably he was the most unlikely NPOY in college basketball history.

I'm not arguing that Heldt will be NPOY in three years (although he is on the same path as the current NPOY!), Rather all those that are projecting what Heldt will mean for this team over the next few years (some have said we need another big man for the years after Luke Graduates), big men progress at a different speed than other players.  Heldt could look the same in a year, or in two years, or he could be order of magnitude better and at Luke's level.  We just don't know and no one can make any projections about him for at least a year.

Either that or admit that if Kaminsky came to MU you would have also proclaimed him a bust after his first six games his Freshman year.

 

You title your thread "Why Matt Heldt Will Be Great!" and then you say, "We just don't know and no one can make any projections about him for at least a year."  Interesting.  Someone must not have been getting the clicks he longs for lately and needed to get some attention (you even added a nice exclamation point at the end!).

[Tugg Speedman]

Wow you guys really just want to fight. Not read and contribute, just fight.

Ok here are the cliff notes version for the reading impaired ...

We have a three-star center that started slow.  And I read this ...

Agree with Devine Eke.  Looked him up and he was not even ranked by any service in high school last year.  Played in New Jersey and don't know how that kid flew under the radar.

Only thought of day is...... I hope Wojo has a bigman up his sleeve for next year or following.  Matt Heldt is not going to be the answer when Luke graduates, or even as a backup next year.

So I pointed out another tall three-star center that started slow the first six games, who played 38 minutes, his Freshman year.  That experienced told you nothing about what he became.  He did improve a lot over the net 3 1/2 years.  Actually he did something never seen before in college basketball history.

So instead of fighting with me, how about taking comments like those above to task.

That is too hard.  It is far easier to ANALYZE what I wrote to death with the expressed purpose of starting a fight.  Because that is what we do here, disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

[Skitch]

Matt Heldt has two hands. You guys know who else had two hands? Michael Jordan.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

I don't think he's going to be a good player because he has similar stats to Kaminsky, but rather how much he has improved year to year.

If you all remember he was a pretty low 3 star recruit when we first got him, but he had a monset senior season which almost bumped him up into the top 100. Give him 2 years under Luke and I think he will be a decent player by his junior year.

[Cooby Snacks]

Matt Heldt has two hands. You guys know who else had two hands? Michael Jordan.

His initials are MH. M is a letter away from L, and H is only two letters from J.

You know whose initials are LJ?

Lebron James.

[77ncaachamps]

His initials are MH. M is a letter away from L, and H is only two letters from J.

You know whose initials are LJ?

Lebron James.

His initials, MH, also stand for Miami Heat, who have as their star player, DWade, a former MU star. They also went to the NBA Finals with the aforementioned LeBron and won two titles.

The NCAA Title is coming to MU twice!

[seakm4]

I think they've played the same amount of minutes through 6 games.  Nothing else.

[tower912]

It has been a long time since MU had a big who was a project.   Otule hardly counts because he was hurt so much and had a lower ceiling due to his eye.  Mbao didn't stick around.      My memory may be failing, but we may have to go back to Ooze and Burke for bigs who came in and had to develop.    IMO, Heldt has a higher ceiling than either of them.   But it isn't going to be this year.   And probably not next year.     This is what 3 star bigs look like their first year. 

[jsglow]

The good thing is that Wojo doesn't have to worry about it right now.  He can get Matt a little seasoning this year, watch his development over the summer and even into next year and THEN decide if additional help (maybe a Juco) is needed after that.

[CTWarrior]

I don't think he's going to be a good player because he has similar stats to Kaminsky, but rather how much he has improved year to year.

If you all remember he was a pretty low 3 star recruit when we first got him, but he had a monset senior season which almost bumped him up into the top 100. Give him 2 years under Luke and I think he will be a decent player by his junior year.

Not for nothing, but his stats are not similar to Kaminsky's, other than minutes played.  A little less than 1/3 the points and 1/2 the rebounds in the same amount of minutes and I don't think it is possible that Kaminsky played against lesser competition. 

He looks to be at least a few years away.  A redshirt was in order for him this year, but our lack of interior depth (and scholarship players) made that untenable, I suppose.  He is young and there is certainly hope that he will eventually be a contributor.  He's a project.  Sometimes those guys work out and sometimes they don't.

[Tugg Speedman]

Not for nothing, but his stats are not similar to Kaminsky's, other than minutes played.  A little less than 1/3 the points and 1/2 the rebounds in the same amount of minutes and I don't think it is possible that Kaminsky played against lesser competition. 

He looks to be at least a few years away.  A redshirt was in order for him this year, but our lack of interior depth (and scholarship players) made that untenable, I suppose.  He is young and there is certainly hope that he will eventually be a contributor.  He's a project.  Sometimes those guys work out and sometimes they don't.

If you want to look at it that closely, Wisconsin was a highly rated team and 6 - 0 in 2011.   They comfortably won those first six 6 games that year while barely breaking a sweat.  Kaminsky got "better garbage time."

(Note in their 8th game in 2011, Wisconsin lost at MU and Kamisnky played a meaningless 5 minutes and scored two points).

Remember that Kaminsky did not start until his Junior season.  Even the second half of his sophomore year he looked the part of a backup player showing no signs of what was to come.

But let's remember the point here.  Big Men can look one way after six games, and can be orders of magnitude better by the start of their junior year.  For NYG and others to proclaim Heldt a bust and suggest Wojo needs to find someone else is silly.  Yes, you always look for other players (never stop recruiting) but no one has any idea what Heldt will, or will not, become in two years.  That includes Matt and Wojo.

[brandx]

But let's remember the point here.  Big Men can look one way after six games, and can be orders of magnitude better by the start of their junior year.  For NYG and others to proclaim Heldt a bust and suggest Wojo needs to find someone else is silly.  Yes, you always look for other players (never stop recruiting) but no one has any idea what Heldt will, or will not, become in two years.  That includes Matt and Wojo.

In other words, recruiting rankings are useless?

A guy (Wojo) who has coached for many years - including dozens of NBA players - has no idea how good someone can become?

Your point about not giving up on Heldt was 100% correct.

Your comparison to Kaminsky was silly.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But let's remember the point here.  Big Men can look one way after six games, and can be orders of magnitude better by the start of their junior year.  For NYG and others to proclaim Heldt a bust and suggest Wojo needs to find someone else is silly.  Yes, you always look for other players (never stop recruiting) but no one has any idea what Heldt will, or will not, become in two years.  That includes Matt and Wojo.

If this is your point then why is the thread titled "Why Matt Heldt Will Be Great"? If this is the point you were trying to make a more appropriate title would be "Why Matt Heldt isn't necessarily bad" or "Why Matt Heldt could get better" or even "Why Matt Heldt could be great". I think this is where the issue lies

[MerrittsMustache]

Definitely not ready to say Heldt will be the next Kaminsky...

...but this is why I'm not at all ready to give up on him yet. He's a big man that has played a handful of games and looks like he's a 6'10" twelve-year-old. He'll grow into his body and get better conditioned, and then who knows?

I love that line!

[GGGG]

If this is your point then why is the thread titled "Why Matt Heldt Will Be Great"? If this is the point you were trying to make a more appropriate title would be "Why Matt Heldt isn't necessarily bad" or "Why Matt Heldt could get better" or even "Why Matt Heldt could be great". I think this is where the issue lies

Heisenberg does this all the time.  He makes declarative statements, that I don't even think he believes sometimes, simply to stir things up.  He is right that it is too early to tell but you are correct that this is not what the subject line said.

[Tugg Speedman]

Heisenberg does this all the time.  He makes declarative statements, that I don't even think he believes sometimes, simply to stir things up. He is right that it is too early to tell but you are correct that this is not what the subject line said.

Correct!

[GGGG]

Well then you can't really bitch at people for "just wanting to fight" when you don't really believe what you are saying anyways.

[Tugg Speedman]

Well then you can't really bitch at people for "just wanting to fight" when you don't really believe what you are saying anyways.

Then did not read what I said, only reacted to the headline

[bilsu]

He has good hands, which is what gives him the ability to become a very good player. He does need to learn to relax when he comes in a game. That comes with playing time. Unless he can develop the skills to play the 4, he will never make the pros like Kaminsky has. He is small for a college center, because he is not a leaper.

[brewcity77]

Then did not read what I said, only reacted to the headline

But you wrote said headline, and if your intent was to say "We just don't know and no one can make any projections about him for at least a year" which was also in your OP, you didn't just bury the lead, you completely misrepresented it.

Kind of disingenuous to get upset at people for reading the title, which by definition should be a brief synopsis of the text that will follow, and responding in a negative way when you don't even believe the title in the first place and are making a statement you have no intention of supporting.

[Dawson Rental]

Wow you guys really just want to fight. Not read and contribute, just fight.

Ok here are the cliff notes version for the reading impaired ...

We have a three-star center that started slow.  And I read this ...

So I pointed out another tall three-star center that started slow the first six games, who played 38 minutes, his Freshman year.  That experienced told you nothing about what he became.  He did improve a lot over the net 3 1/2 years.  Actually he did something never seen before in college basketball history.

So instead of fighting with me, how about taking comments like those above to task.

That is too hard.  It is far easier to ANALYZE what I wrote to death with the expressed purpose of starting a fight.  Because that is what we do here, disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

[Nukem2]

He has good hands, which is what gives him the ability to become a very good player. He does need to learn to relax when he comes in a game. That comes with playing time. Unless he can develop the skills to play the 4, he will never make the pros like Kaminsky has. He is small for a college center, because he is not a leaper.

Yes, he does have good hands and he can shoot the face up shot (though we have yet to see it).  Right now he does not relax because he is thinking way too much as you can literally see him looking to where he should go.  Yes, height will be his drawback in terms of the NBA.  But, he can be a very nice collegiate center with experience.  Too bad MU is not really in a situation for him to have red-shirted this season.

[BubbaWilliams]

If Heldt turns out to be Chris Grimm 2.0 I'll be ok with that. I know he has some potential, but I also know not everyone realizes that potential.

[GOO]

Yes, he does have good hands and he can shoot the face up shot (though we have yet to see it).  Right now he does not relax because he is thinking way too much as you can literally see him looking to where he should go.  Yes, height will be his drawback in terms of the NBA.  But, he can be a very nice collegiate center with experience.  Too bad MU is not really in a situation for him to have red-shirted this season.

We should always have a project big on the roster.  Maybe two spaced two years apart.  How many times have we faced mid-majors with solid big men who are juniors and seniors who could have helped us...?  Gone should be the days of starting 6'6" guys at center who can't even shoot a jumper.  Or 6'9" guys who can't shoot outside of 3 feet and who's defenders clog the lane.   You can't teach big as we all know.

For big men, the first question I have is about the Hands. You can't teach soft hands. Heldt has soft hands.  The next question is how they move their feet.  Not technique as that is teachable  Heldt is mid grade here and a bit of a concern.  But he can improve.  If nothing else, he will be able to draw an opposing big outside the paint on offense, and he will be able to defend and bang underneath.  He will be a large man by junior year.. he has the build for it and he has a great big man coach in Wojo.  He will contribute at MU as long as he sticks it out for a couple of years. 

He is the perfect type of guy to have on the roster, a real big with hands and can shoot it.  He will probably take two years, but will help this team in the future.  He has good hands and he can actually shoot the ball, which until Wojo came was pretty much unheard of for MU bigs in recent times.
So having a real big even one who is a bit of a project is perfect by me. Keep them coming every couple of years.

[forgetful]

Wow you guys really just want to fight. Not read and contribute, just fight.

Ok here are the cliff notes version for the reading impaired ...

We have a three-star center that started slow.  And I read this ...

So I pointed out another tall three-star center that started slow the first six games, who played 38 minutes, his Freshman year.  That experienced told you nothing about what he became.  He did improve a lot over the net 3 1/2 years.  Actually he did something never seen before in college basketball history.

So instead of fighting with me, how about taking comments like those above to task.

That is too hard.  It is far easier to ANALYZE what I wrote to death with the expressed purpose of starting a fight.  Because that is what we do here, disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

You have fallen victim to literal reading disease.  I understood what you meant fine and agree with you.  Often we use declarative statements for emphasis not meant to be taken literally (as you did); I understand this and read it as meant.  I've learned though that often people will take things absolutely literally and the response is to generally ridicule on message boards (no idea why or if the people doing it even mean any hostility).

[g0lden3agle]

You have fallen victim to literal reading disease.  I understood what you meant fine and agree with you.  Often we use declarative statements for emphasis not meant to be taken literally (as you did); I understand this and read it as meant.  I've learned though that often people will take things absolutely literally and the response is to generally ridicule on message boards (no idea why or if the people doing it even mean any hostility).

This.  People can't seem to grasp that the title of this thread was tongue in cheek.  I have a feeling whether or not you read the politics board may impact your ability to see a thread by Heisenberg and see it as tongue in cheek and not crazy talk.

[bilsu]

Yes, he does have good hands and he can shoot the face up shot (though we have yet to see it).  Right now he does not relax because he is thinking way too much as you can literally see him looking to where he should go.  Yes, height will be his drawback in terms of the NBA.  But, he can be a very nice collegiate center with experience.  Too bad MU is not really in a situation for him to have red-shirted this season.

I think we were in the situation to redshirt him. I do not think this year that he will be the diffenece between us winning or losing a game. You could always pull the redshirt, if Fischer or Ellenson got hurt.

[Tugg Speedman]

This.  People can't seem to grasp that the title of this thread was tongue in cheek.  I have a feeling whether or not you read the politics board may impact your ability to see a thread by Heisenberg and see it as tongue in cheek and not crazy talk.

I think those that are regulars on the politics board can compartmentalize.  What opinions offered there stay there.  The basketball opinions here are taking based on the BASKETBALL opinion of the poster, not the POLITICAL opinion of the poster.

[RushmoreAcademy]

I think his perceived success will be a result of how well our young guards develop. If Traci and Cheatham are tearing things up then it will be a different game for Matt.

[GOO]

I think his perceived success will be a result of how well our young guards develop. If Traci and Cheatham are tearing things up then it will be a different game for Matt.

But it is a lot easier for guards to tear it up if they have a big that can draw out a defender, and have someone with decent hands to dump it off to or kick it out to.

[Nukem2]

I think we were in the situation to redshirt him. I do not think this year that he will be the diffenece between us winning or losing a game. You could always pull the redshirt, if Fischer or Ellenson got hurt.

Disagree.  MU would have a short roster without him and no help if Luke and Henry are in foul trouble or hurt in game.