MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: pitz on March 02, 2007, 12:44:09 PM
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if he wears the Warriors headress that he has been wearing to the games since the Rutgers game.
He sits in the front row and Jim McMahon VP of residence life or something like that called him into his office and told him that if he wears it for Game day or the game tomorrow it will be confiscated and he will most likely be ejected. He told him that we need to be sensitive to Native American feelings.
Quite ironic since tomorrow we are honoring the 77 WARRIORS !!!!!!!!!
>:(
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Hmm...
Here's the guy's contact info:
McMahon, Dr. James (Jim)
(414) 288-7208
Assistant Vice President/Dean
Residence Life
M. Carpenter Tower 203
james.mcmahon@marquette.edu
Could start an e-mail/phone electro/tele-thon on this to let him know how strong-arm tactics are viewed by the Marquette community as a whole.
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McMahon's a good guy. I had a few run-ins during college and he was reasonable.
Don't think for a second that this is his call.
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The only reason they're saying it now is because it's Gameday coming in, although that still doesn't excuse the threat.
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Jim Mac Mahon ,name sounds familiar . Did he play ball for MU and graduate in the mid '70's . Is he from NY?
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if he wears the Warriors headress that he has been wearing to the games since the Rutgers game.
He sits in the front row and Jim McMahon VP of residence life or something like that called him into his office and told him that if he wears it for Game day or the game tomorrow it will be confiscated and he will most likely be ejected. He told him that we need to be sensitive to Native American feelings.
Quite ironic since tomorrow we are honoring the 77 WARRIORS !!!!!!!!!
>:(
I applaud McMahon's decision...unfortunate Jim has to make these types of decision...whatever happened to parenting??
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He would do that too. I doubt it's just a threat, unless there is unwaivering support against him, which there will be in this case, he carries through w/ his actions. Very monotone guy that could put you to sleep if ya have to listen to him too long but he carries through with what he says most of the time.
Wow State, you gotta be kidding me.
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Why would Native Americans find a headdress offensive? What a joke!!! I would like to see the crowd's reaction if they openly ejected an individual for wearing Warriors gear.
I wonder if the Dutch are offended by wooden shoes.
Incidentally, I've seen your son and commented on it to several guests. That's a great look!
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I'm part Irish and that ND caricature and belligerent stereotype of their mascot offends me.
stop the madness
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I applaud McMahon's decision...unfortunate Jim has to make these types of decision...whatever happened to parenting??
Whatever happened to parenting? Somebody should put State over their knee!
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Well, if your son wants to be famous, he should do it anyhow. Make sure he's got a friend taping the ejection, and presto, hello news coverage.
Where does it stop? A feather in his cap? Moccasins?
It is safe to assume MU officials are now reading this thread.
Gentlemen: Do as you must, but in one hand, you've got an enthusiastic fan doing little (if any) harm. In the other, a big public relations pie in the face.
Choose wisely.
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Excellent point, NY. I'm Irish too, and I hate the stereotypes. Every time I hear/see them, it makes me want to get drunk and punch somebody!
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During the "pick a winner" section of the GameDay show, I'd love to see Digger Phelps don a headdress (a la Lee Corso) and pick Marquette. I would LOVE IT!
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Excellent point, NY. I'm Irish too, and I hate the stereotypes. Every time I hear/see them, it makes me want to get drunk and punch somebody!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Could start an e-mail/phone electro/tele-thon on this to let him know how strong-arm tactics are viewed by the Marquette community as a whole.
The Marquette community "as a whole" is not in disagreement with the university on this one. Telling a student in advance that if they chose to do something that has been repeatedly stated as being contrary to the university's mission will result in him "likely" being ejected from the game is the farthest thing from "strong arm tactics." Considering MU's public stance on the Native American imagery issue, this is utterly reasonably.
I agree with the university. Wearing the headress would be pretty embarassing.
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I agree with the university. Wearing the headress would be pretty embarassing.
That is total BS. Embarrassing for what/whom? I think it would be great -- and I hope he chooses to wear it.
If the 77 team is shown during the telecast, would it be "embarrassing" for one of them to discuss the nickname?
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Could start an e-mail/phone electro/tele-thon on this to let him know how strong-arm tactics are viewed by the Marquette community as a whole.
The Marquette community "as a whole" is not in disagreement with the university on this one. Telling a student in advance that if they chose to do something that has been repeatedly stated as being contrary to the university's mission will result in him "likely" being ejected from the game is the farthest thing from "strong arm tactics." Considering MU's public stance on the Native American imagery issue, this is utterly reasonably.
I agree with the university. Wearing the headress would be pretty embarassing.
Note - I purposely did not take a side in my post as I am undecided about whether the headdress is appropriate as well. I am and always will be a warrior - but I strongly feel that the continuous linking of the name to the native american mascot is only hurting the argument that we can be warriors AND be politically sensitive at the same time (since, for example, when I asked about 20 people down here in TX the other day what their first thought was when I said the word warrior - they all basically said "heroic fighter" and shook their head in disagreement when I asked whether it might be more closely associated with a native american figure). On the other hand, it does seem to be a strong-arm tactic - but is it an appropriate time to use such a tactic.
I am sure people will voice their opinion to him that he is wrong. I was also intending that people could voice their opinion to him that he is right (and thus get both sides to represent the whole).
If you want my opinion, I would probably slightly prefer that the headdress not be associated with or used at marquette games. But I also am not comfortable with the administration threatening to eject a patron for wearing it (there is such thing as freedom of speech/expression).
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There is really two issue here:
1) Continued debate over the name, and I would state that the vast majority of the MU community is not offended by it and prefer Warriors. I don't think that is debatable. Many people realize it will never happen and have dropped it, or don't care enought to keep fighting, but a choice of preference is certainly there.
2) Whether the use on this day would be permissible, particularly given that it is a celebration of our '77 Warriors. Believe it or not, they were the Warriors and as much as MU can try, they will never run from it. I think this would be his stronger argument, and certainly reasonable. It is weakened, however, by the use in past games.
The interesting question will be how much "warriors" material gets on television. I see plenty of it when I attend games, but I bet MU polices it pretty heavily. Pretty "closed-minded" if you ask me, but it is a private event and they have that right to exclude anything they want.
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Clearly the fact that this guy's kid is a Marquette student demonstrates that he's been a lousy father.
For shame.
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drew is correct!!! If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times...I graduated in 1990 and I never once saw a Willie Wampum image until after the name change. Never. The ridiculous name is causing people to bring back the offensive images as a protest!
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Well then... there is some native american significance to saturday and it is good for us!
There will be a total lunar eclipse occurring between 2:18PM and 4:44PM on Saturday (see this CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/03/02/lunar.eclipse.ap/index.html)). A quick check online of what the native americans thought of lunar eclipses yields this quote When a lunar eclipse occurs it is viewed as recognizable change in energy, heat and strength of light.
at about 3/4ths the way down on the third page of this article (http://www.unm.edu/~abqteach/ArcheoCUs/99-01-02.pdf). So that means we'll be playing with a lot more energy (since we can only go up in that department), putting more heat on the ball, and performing strong under the (spot)light! Even the ancient americans predict a victory for us tomorrow - now we cannot fail! ;D
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Student Life employees...same at every school. I'm having a Sheery Coe Perkins flashback...Ugh.
What's next, banning of Warrior T-Shirts? Banning of "Let's Go Warriors"?
Considering what Student Life has endorsed over the years and allows frequently, their hypocrisy is staggering
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There is a simple solution here--pitz' son should dress up in a way to honor Joan of Arc.
(http://img.infoplease.com/images/joan_arc.gif)
We keep hearing that MU fans support only the Warrior name and not the native American image. We keep hearing that they would find a Joan of Arc image perfectly acceptable--if ONLY the administration would officially bless this move to the Joan of Arc mascot.
Then, and only then could MU fans who want to honor the Warrior name could do so without an Indian as part of the image.
We've all heard the excuse--since MU won't provide an alternate to the Indian images, well, we'll just have to keep using the Indian.
Are you all stupid? You haven't yet figured out that nobody is stopping you from dressing up like Joan of Arc and honoring the Warrior image you all swear it your true intent?
Perhps if the administration saw the honor and dignity and support you show for the Joan of Arc Warrior, they might agree that it IS possible to keep the Warrior name.
I say it's time for you to take the initiative. Show the world you stand behind your the Joan of Arc imagery. Why wait for the administration to bless your decision to switch en masse to Joan of Arc.
You certainly don't accept the administration's blessing of the Golden Eagle name, so it is a bit confusing that you're holding off on this move until this same group gives you the thumbs up.
So this is your chance, Warrior supporters--dress up in your finest Joan of Arc regaila!! You've been saying that is what you've wanted for years.
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Why would Native Americans find a headdress offensive? What a joke!!!
You can't understand why a sacred symbol reserved for the most revered people in a tribe is being worn by some kid at a basketball game would offend Native Americans? Wow you really don't get it.
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Who said they'd support a Joan of Arc image?
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Why would Native Americans find a headdress offensive? What a joke!!!
You can't understand why a sacred symbol reserved for the most revered people in a tribe is being worn by some kid at a basketball game would offend Native Americans? Wow you really don't get it.
No, I don't get it. Maybe you can explain it to me.
Are you a native american or are you feigning your sense of outrage?
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There is a simple solution here--pitz' son should dress up in a way to honor Joan of Arc.
actually - not a bad idea.. but I would not go with that image.. this one is definitely more appropriate and would go over better:
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/fa/Joan-of-Arc-Paris.jpg)
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This is the first I've heard of this Joan of Arc thing. I would definitely support such an idea with the warriors name attached to it.
'84, you are suggesting that a very wide spread and diverse group of alumni and students should all have the same thought and collectively change to Joan of Arc gear and burn the Native American gear???? What are we the borg?? The reason people expect the university to make that change is because they are the only ones that can organize such a sea change. There is no way to prove it, but I am 100% that if we change to warriors with Joan of Arc as the symbol.....within 5 years there would be little in the way of Native American gear on display and would be almost unheard of within 10 years.
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I believe these are strong arm tactics. Now I understand where Student Life is coming from but that doesn't make it right. Just out of curiousity, when did freedom of speech become freedom to say or do anything as long as everyone is ok with it?
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McMahon has ZERO jurisdiction over this, if this were a dorm then he would. Really the only MU official that would kick him out at the BC is Jim Nasiopoulous, who is more concerned about "derogatory" signs and fake laptops. The word would have to come down from Student Affairs, to Athletics, to the Bradley Center security. I don't think its gonna happen.
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Since college gameday is staged by ESPN, maybe they had something to do with it?
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Why would Native Americans find a headdress offensive? What a joke!!!
You can't understand why a sacred symbol reserved for the most revered people in a tribe is being worn by some kid at a basketball game would offend Native Americans? Wow you really don't get it.
No, I don't get it. Maybe you can explain it to me.
Are you a native american or are you feigning your sense of outrage?
It's not just some hat people wore, it's something you had to earn. The more feathers you had the more brave acts you had committed, the more revered of a person you were. In many tribes only the chief was allowed to wear one, in some it was reserved for the chief and the spiritual leaders of the tribe. The ordinary tribe members rarely got them except for a few religious ceremonies. If a tribe member who hadn't earned it wore one, it was considered highly disrespectful.
I have Native American relatives, but I myself am not Native American. but I'd be just as upset if it were something from any other group that had that type of significance being used in this way, regardless of what race or religion it was.
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Is Jim McMahon the brother of Hugh Mcmahon who played for the Warriors from 1969-1971?
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Really the only MU official that would kick him out at the BC is Jim Nasiopoulous, who is more concerned about "derogatory" signs and fake laptops.
He's actually very good at his job. I don't think any of these lasted more than a minute.
(http://photos-570.ak.facebook.com/ip007/v16/113/65/20302339/n20302339_30136570_6614.jpg)
(http://photos-339.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v16/113/65/20302339/n20302339_30130495_9194.jpg)
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...or related to Ed McMahon? If so, can you put in a good word for me for Publishers' Clearinghouse? I'm getting sick of work, and could really use winning that thing.
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Why would Native Americans find a headdress offensive? What a joke!!!
You can't understand why a sacred symbol reserved for the most revered people in a tribe is being worn by some kid at a basketball game would offend Native Americans? Wow you really don't get it.
No, I don't get it. Maybe you can explain it to me.
Are you a native american or are you feigning your sense of outrage?
It's not just some hat people wore, it's something you had to earn. The more feathers you had the more brave acts you had committed, the more revered of a person you were. In many tribes only the chief was allowed to wear one, in some it was reserved for the chief and the spiritual leaders of the tribe. The ordinary tribe members rarely got them except for a few religious ceremonies. If a tribe member who hadn't earned it wore one, it was considered highly disrespectful.
I have Native American relatives, but I myself am not Native American. but I'd be just as upset if it were something from any other group that had that type of significance being used in this way, regardless of what race or religion it was.
This is an absolute joke. We all know what headdresses were once used for. The fact is, wearing one to a basketball game is not meant to be disrespectful, nor should it be construed as being offensive. Does Marquette believe that if they continue to hide the fact we were once called "Warriors" and had Indian-themed logos that people will forget about it? The only way to get rid of old Warriors logos is to get a new one!! It's so obvious, it's PATHETIC!!!!!
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What, is Jim McMahon going to preemptively search the dorms of students tonight for Warriors gear before they leave for Gameday?
And if this is how they are going to approach any sort of expression of the Marquette Warriors, are they going to check the shirts of every fan they walk into the BC and eject any of them that have the word Warriors or Warrior-related imagery? Or banish the students if they start a "Let's Go Warriors" chant? Will they even use the word Warriors during halftime tomorrow night?
While I think wearing the headdress is in questionable taste and does more harm than good to the cause many of us Warrior supporters continue to champion, the kid certainly has the right to do it. Obviously none of MU's PR people have learned a damn lesson over the years, and someone has got to tell McMahon to calm down.
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We could always start doing the tomahawk chop with chant....we did it at Notre Dame. I'm sure thats a ton worse than a logo and headdress. If they wanna see the native american imagery disappear, then change the name back. The only reason people, like myself, wear old warriors stuff is because it's the only logo associated with that nickname. Keep the new logo change the name and I(along with many others most likely) would wear that. They know they messed up twice now and think that if you get rid of it, that everyone forgets. I'm suprised they don't just get rid of anything(records,pictures etc.) relating to 1954-94. Kind of like the Family Guy episode with the Germans...where records for the years 1939-49 don't exist.
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This is an absolute joke. We all know what headdresses were once used for. The fact is, wearing one to a basketball game is not meant to be disrespectful, nor should it be construed as being offensive. Does Marquette believe that if they continue to hide the fact we were once called "Warriors" and had Indian-themed logos that people will forget about it? The only way to get rid of old Warriors logos is to get a new one!! It's so obvious, it's PATHETIC!!!!!
And again you still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether or not they mean to be disrespectful. The simply fact that they're doing it is disrespectful to those involved.
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And again you still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether or not they mean to be disrespectful. The simply fact that they're doing it is disrespectful to those involved.
According to whom? Please explain this to me. And please explain who "those involved" are.
YOU DON'T GET IT!!!
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Here is what I found out after asking around a bit:
- Athletics spotted the headdress on tape, and sent it over to Student Affairs and Res Life to ID the student.
- Since Fr. Thon is out of town, McMahon is overseeing Student Affairs, which is why he was able to make such a threat.
-Why no one approached the student at any of the several games he wore this to really shows one thing:
University bureaucrats only care about displaying sensitivity to American Indians when it is in front of a national television audience.
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And again you still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether or not they mean to be disrespectful. The simply fact that they're doing it is disrespectful to those involved.
According to whom? Please explain this to me. And please explain who "those involved" are.
YOU DON'T GET IT!!!
Its offensive to Native American's that value and honor their heritage. It would be like wearing a yarmulke when you aren't Jewish or military stars when you didn't earn them. Because that's what a headdress is, that's what it signifies, it's a combination of a religious and military significance for that culture. Wearing it when you aren't a part of that culture and haven't earned it is incredibly disrespectful.
If you don't care about offending Native Americans that's one thing, but to say it isn't offensive to them is ridiculous.
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PRN, I guess there will always be those who are overly sensitive about things that don't related directly to them.
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Who has a game ticket with them @ work? I am curious as to the verbage use d on the back of the ticket identifying the University's power to eject a fan. Will I get tossed if I wear a Samoan outfit to the game even though I'm not Samoan? Where will this PC Madness end? Maybe Pitz's son is 1/16th indian? will he still be removed from the BC because he is simply "expressing" his heritage. Will a gay man or women be removed from the game because the Catholic Church forbides these types of relationships? Where does it end!!!
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And again you still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether or not they mean to be disrespectful. The simply fact that they're doing it is disrespectful to those involved.
According to whom? Please explain this to me. And please explain who "those involved" are.
YOU DON'T GET IT!!!
Its offensive to Native American's that value and honor their heritage. It would be like wearing a yarmulke when you aren't Jewish or military stars when you didn't earn them. Because that's what a headdress is, that's what it signifies, it's a combination of a religious and military significance for that culture. Wearing it when you aren't a part of that culture and haven't earned it is incredibly disrespectful.
If you don't care about offending Native Americans that's one thing, but to say it isn't offensive to them is ridiculous.
Halloween must be shunned at your house. ;D
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If you don't care about offending Native Americans that's one thing, but to say it isn't offensive to them is ridiculous.
Why do you continue to speak for them? I would like to see the quotes, attributed to Native Americans, that object to Marquette returning to Warriors with a non-Native American logo.
I think you will have to look long and hard because such a quote does not exist. We were given nothing but second hand objections from Fr. Wild, but not a damn thing from these real live "Native Americans" who are so offended by a nickname like "Warriors" that was ALWAYS meant to honor their bravery.
I don't get it? I think it's the Native Americans and people like bma725 and Marquette84 that don't get it!! You're so busy preaching to us from your high horse that you refuse to admit the origin of the name was a tribute!!
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There is a simple solution here--pitz' son should dress up in a way to honor Joan of Arc.
(http://img.infoplease.com/images/joan_arc.gif)
We keep hearing that MU fans support only the Warrior name and not the native American image. We keep hearing that they would find a Joan of Arc image perfectly acceptable--if ONLY the administration would officially bless this move to the Joan of Arc mascot.
Then, and only then could MU fans who want to honor the Warrior name could do so without an Indian as part of the image.
We've all heard the excuse--since MU won't provide an alternate to the Indian images, well, we'll just have to keep using the Indian.
Are you all stupid? You haven't yet figured out that nobody is stopping you from dressing up like Joan of Arc and honoring the Warrior image you all swear it your true intent?
Perhps if the administration saw the honor and dignity and support you show for the Joan of Arc Warrior, they might agree that it IS possible to keep the Warrior name.
I say it's time for you to take the initiative. Show the world you stand behind your the Joan of Arc imagery. Why wait for the administration to bless your decision to switch en masse to Joan of Arc.
You certainly don't accept the administration's blessing of the Golden Eagle name, so it is a bit confusing that you're holding off on this move until this same group gives you the thumbs up.
So this is your chance, Warrior supporters--dress up in your finest Joan of Arc regaila!! You've been saying that is what you've wanted for years.
Am I missing something here? Joan of Arc? Who exactly advocates a Joan of Arc-based mascot?
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I'm sure this guy only wears it to honor those times.
While I am pretty neutral on this whole nickname thing, I do enjoy the lengths people will go to make their points. The above quote is my favorite for today. Yeah, the kid is paying homage; I am sure it has nothing to do with trying to attract attention from the TV and/or Jumbotron cameras. Just trying to honor history -- sure thing. Isn't that a high priority with every college student, especially on this issue? ::)
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drew is correct!!! If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times...I graduated in 1990 and I never once saw a Willie Wampum image until after the name change. Never. The ridiculous name is causing people to bring back the offensive images as a protest!
I don't even want to get in on this debate, but I will say that I strongly disagree with the fact that the old warrior stuff would just dissapear if MU went back to the name Warriors.
Students and alumni alike really like the old stuff because it's somewhat original and different.
The reason we haven't seen all of the willie wapaum stuff in the past is because it was harder to come by.
Now with the internet, students can brand anything they want using any MU logo they want. I could make decent looking willie wapaum shirts by tomorrow using my laptop and home printer. It's just easier now than in 1990.
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Eventually a Joan of Arc Warrior would be deemed sexist (because she is a woman) and racist (because she was a white woman) by some of these same people. Don't believe me? Check the stories about the movement to rid UMASS of the "Minuteman" because he was racist (he was depicted as a white man), sexist (because he was a man), and violent (because he carried a gun . . . nevermind that Minutemen actually fought battles). Never underestimate the foolishness of some.
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If you don't care about offending Native Americans that's one thing, but to say it isn't offensive to them is ridiculous.
Why do you continue to speak for them? I would like to see the quotes, attributed to Native Americans, that object to Marquette returning to Warriors with a non-Native American logo.
PRN, be careful, there will always be people in society who will claim to be victims because they feel empowered by the attention. Certainly that was the case back during Marquette's debacle, when the one dude claimed to speak for all Native American tribes in Wisconsin, despite the fact that none of them actually individually rebuked Marquette.
But besides that, I think some people may be accidently accepting some posters' attempts to paint a straw man argument. Some posters would like this to be a debate over the mascot (as you know). However, NO ONE actually suggested going back to the old mascot of the 70's, which is why anyone who claims that the nickname debate centers around Native American opinions on mascots and headdresses etc is fighting a battle that doesn't even address the Marquette nickname debate.
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If nothing else, this thread proves that there's a debate within the MU community about this issue.
Chicos-- your reference to Sherry Coe Perkins brought chills. She was a red-tape dispenser. My Lord.
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Jay Weber - sitting in for Belling - is discussing this on 1130 right now.
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While I am pretty neutral on this whole nickname thing, I do enjoy the lengths people will go to make their points. The above quote is my favorite for today. Yeah, the kid is paying homage; I am sure it has nothing to do with trying to attract attention from the TV and/or Jumbotron cameras. Just trying to honor history -- sure thing. Isn't that a high priority with every college student, especially on this issue?
I'll just put it from my perspective. I was trying to find/make a headdress like that myself before he showed up with his. I didn't want to take away from his thing, so I stopped. However, my reasons for doing it in the first place were to pay tribute to the Warriors.
If honoring the time was your intent, why do you care if someone else was doing it? If it was an honor, rather than a gimmick, shouldn't everyone be doing it?
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Coach, it's impossible to get everyone to do anything let alone something like this.
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If you don't care about offending Native Americans that's one thing, but to say it isn't offensive to them is ridiculous.
Why do you continue to speak for them? I would like to see the quotes, attributed to Native Americans, that object to Marquette returning to Warriors with a non-Native American logo.
I think you will have to look long and hard because such a quote does not exist. We were given nothing but second hand objections from Fr. Wild, but not a damn thing from these real live "Native Americans" who are so offended by a nickname like "Warriors" that was ALWAYS meant to honor their bravery.
I don't get it? I think it's the Native Americans and people like bma725 and Marquette84 that don't get it!! You're so busy preaching to us from your high horse that you refuse to admit the origin of the name was a tribute!!
Now you're switching the issue. I'm talking about the headdress, you're talking about the nickname. Try to stay on topic.
How about a quote from the National Coalition on Racism in Sports, and it's Native American Vice-President Charlene Teters:
"Using our names, likeness and religious symbols to excite the crowd does not feel like honor or respect, it is hurtful and confusing to our young people. To reduce the victims of genocide to a mascot is unthinking, at least, and immoral at worst. An educational institution's mission is to educate, not mis-educate, and to alleviate the ignorance behind racist stereotypes, not perpetuate them and to provide a nondiscriminatory environment for all its students, conducive to learning."
Or how about Cindy Bloom, a Cherokee activist who protested the Washington Redskins use of a headdress:
"They're talking about something sacred to us and using it to promote an athletic team. It's really a disgrace. It's like using the face of the pope or a priest.""
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It's like using the face of the pope or a priest.
Providence Friars - Mascot is a white guy, looks like he's wearing a hood, probably that of a... priest?
Milwaukee Pius Popes - Nickname Popes, a direct reference to Pope Pius IX
San Diego Padres - Mascot is the stereotypical bald, overweight robe-wearing Franciscan friar
"Jumpin' Jesuits" - a reference to the legend of the MU priests who killed themselves by jumping off one of the academic buildings.
Boy, as a Catholic, I'm awfully offended... [/sarcasm]
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Just to clear up a few things. I made the headdress for him. He wanted to wear it because he is a lifelong (from infancy) MU fan.
He has deep feelings for the Warriors. He meant no disrespect.
He didn't do it to get on the jumbotron.
He was just interviewed by WTMJ 620. He told them he never meant for it to be so controversial and only did it to honor the Warrior name.
He will not wear it tomorrow, even though he would love to honor the 77 team. He doesn't want it to overshadow anything.
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It's like using the face of the pope or a priest.
Providence Friars - Mascot is a white guy, looks like he's wearing a hood, probably that of a... priest?
Milwaukee Pius Popes - Nickname Popes, a direct reference to Pope Pius IX
San Diego Padres - Mascot is the stereotypical bald, overweight robe-wearing Franciscan friar
"Jumpin' Jesuits" - a reference to the legend of the MU priests who killed themselves by jumping off one of the academic buildings.
Boy, as a Catholic, I'm awfully offended... [/sarcasm]
You forgot the Valparaiso Crusaders...now that's politically correct and for a luthern school too....but you don't hear the muslims or anyone else complaining about that one.
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Just to clear up a few things. I made the headdress for him. He wanted to wear it because he is a lifelong (from infancy) MU fan.
He has deep feelings for the Warriors. He meant no disrespect.
He didn't do it to get on the jumbotron.
He was just interviewed by WTMJ 620. He told them he never meant for it to be so controversial and only did it to honor the Warrior name.
He will not wear it tomorrow, even though he would love to honor the 77 team. He doesn't want it to overshadow anything.
Now that is a real shame! I guess now I'll have to do my part and proudly display Warrior garb tomorrow. Hopefully many of you will do the same.
Let's Go Warriors.
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The thing lost in this whole thread is that tomorrow night is about the 2006-07 basketball team. Sure we will recognize and applaud the 1976-77 team one more time, but this is about the student athletes and the coaching staff of this year's team. This is not about those of us that went to school as Warriors a chance to demonstrate that we should be Warriors again on national TV. It is about us, as fans, to cheer on a team that really needs a win. There is a time and place to debate the nickname/mascot issue, but tomorrow night is not that time or place. This team along with the coaching staff has worked hard to receive the privilige to be one of a very few select schools to get the chance to host ESPN Gameday. Let's let tomorrow be about celebrating this acheivment and cheering this team on to a huge win over Pitt.
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How about a quote from the National Coalition on Racism in Sports, and it's Native American Vice-President Charlene Teters:
Or how about Cindy Bloom, a Cherokee activist who protested the Washington Redskins use of a headdress:
You are quoting people who are race hustlers. They are in business to express grievances -- rather like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.
They are in business to tell white liberals and leftist what they want to hear.
When one surveys real American Indians (as Sports Illustrated and the Annenberg School did) one finds real Indians say Indian names are OK by huge margins.
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For the latest news, see the following:
http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2007/03/marquette-student-wearing-warrior.html
http://mu-warrior.blogspot.com/2007/03/indian-headdresses-at-tomorrows.html
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That'd be interesting to see if more than just one person showed up in a headdress. I won't be but I will have a warriors shirt on.
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This is not about those of us that went to school as Warriors a chance to demonstrate that we should be Warriors again on national TV. It is about us, as fans, to cheer on a team that really needs a win.
I couldn't agree more. I won't be there demonstrating that we should be Warriors again. I'll be there yelling my A#$ off for this years team - that is all that should matter. What I am wearing should not.
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This is not about those of us that went to school as Warriors a chance to demonstrate that we should be Warriors again on national TV. It is about us, as fans, to cheer on a team that really needs a win.
I couldn't agree more. I won't be there demonstrating that we should be Warriors again. I'll be there yelling my A#$ off for this years team - that is all that should matter. What I am wearing should not.
God are you guys full of absolute balderdash!! Why can't people cheer for Marquette WHILE showing their support for the nickname that was stripped away for no legitimate reason??
There are a LOT of Marquette supporters who remain angry about the name change. The young guys on this board don't really seem to realize just how many. We will NEVER have a bigger stage to voice our outrage at the university for completely ignoring our wishes. I hope it's completely over-the-top Warrior stuff all day tomorrow.
To suggest that people that want Warriors back won't support the team is idiotic. It makes you all sound like members of the administration.
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We will have a sign....hopefully it will be as big as planned...you'll see that for sure. Also, which is odd again, I agree with PRN on this. I will support this team no matter what and will never put a nickname infront of that, but why not support both. We aren't taking away from the team at all and to think it would is just stupidity since the warriors supporters are largely the biggest supporters of the team, and tend to go to most of the away games. I am not at all saying others aren't, I'm just pointing out the fact that the nickname clearly doesn't get in the way of our support.
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The sign I mentioned is 12 feet long and will be in one of the front rows in the vif section
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Why can't people cheer for Marquette WHILE showing their support for the nickname that was stripped away for no legitimate reason??
They can and I will. Maybe I shouldn't have said that I won't be there demonstrating that we should be Warriors again - that just isn't my primary reason for being at the game....while wearing a Warriors shirt.
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I have very strong feelings on the nickname topic as many folks here know. ::) That said, I can't stay out of this any longer... I do find it very ironic that it finally becomes an issue in the eyes of the administration on the eve of our biggest and most televised game of the season. If the administration had a problem with this, they should have nipped it in the butt the first time he wore it. To say that they just found out about it is an insult to everybody's intelligence. Make a statement early in the season and don't pick the biggest game of the year to make this an issue. Public relations 101... geezzz, that may even be a grade school lesson.
That said gentlemen and gentlewomen, we have a VERY BIG game tomorrow so let's focus on that and return to the debate after the season in between updates of us recruiting small men. ;D
SOOO... FIRE UP MARQUETTE!!!!
ohhh... and LET'S GO WARRIORS!!! ;D
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This is not about those of us that went to school as Warriors a chance to demonstrate that we should be Warriors again on national TV. It is about us, as fans, to cheer on a team that really needs a win.
I couldn't agree more. I won't be there demonstrating that we should be Warriors again. I'll be there yelling my A#$ off for this years team - that is all that should matter. What I am wearing should not.
Why can't people cheer for Marquette WHILE showing their support for the nickname that was stripped away for no legitimate reason??
The reason I don't think it's possible is because I keep reading that people are going to be watching for a student in a headress and waiting for the BC security to throw him out. That leads me to believe that people care more about that than the team. I'm going to cheer for the team. If the chant "Let's Go Warriors!" is started, I will join in. What I'm saying is, my priority at the game is to watch and cheer on our team, not try to use it for my own selfish reasons to try and bring back a nickname.
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PRN, I guess there will always be those who are overly sensitive about things that don't related directly to them.
As there will always be those who have no problem offending the sensibilities of others, but are eager to scream bloody murder when they feel their own have been the victim of a real or imaginary affront.
It's a silly college sports nickname that, unfortunately, has been transformed into a golden calf by some. Get over it.
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And again you still don't get it. It doesn't matter whether or not they mean to be disrespectful. The simply fact that they're doing it is disrespectful to those involved.
According to whom? Please explain this to me. And please explain who "those involved" are.
YOU DON'T GET IT!!!
Its offensive to Native American's that value and honor their heritage. It would be like wearing a yarmulke when you aren't Jewish or military stars when you didn't earn them. Because that's what a headdress is, that's what it signifies, it's a combination of a religious and military significance for that culture. Wearing it when you aren't a part of that culture and haven't earned it is incredibly disrespectful.
If you don't care about offending Native Americans that's one thing, but to say it isn't offensive to them is ridiculous.
Halloween must be shunned at your house. ;D
Halloween's roots are in ancient Ireland.
"Halloween originated under a different name ("samhain") as a Pagan festival among the Celts of Ireland and Great Britain with mainly Irish and Scots and other immigrants transporting versions of the tradition to North America in the nineteenth century. Most other Western countries have embraced Halloween as a part of American pop culture in the late twentieth century."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween
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PRN, I guess there will always be those who are overly sensitive about things that don't related directly to them.
As there will always be those who have no problem offending the sensibilities of others, but are eager to scream bloody murder when they feel their own have been the victim of a real or imaginary affront.
It's a silly college sports nickname that, unfortunately, has been transformed into a golden calf by some. Get over it.
It's only sensitive to those that take it that way. All of us who are part or even fully Irish aren't really offended by ND's mascot. And yes it's basically the same thing, one group is no different from another. Also go back to where I said the part about Valpo still being the Crusaders....why aren't the muslims outraged by this, it must be a big deal because some random university has a nickname that relates to them. I've never heard of a case outside one involving native americans when it comes to things like these, why's that?
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because this is the one the p.c. crowd has chosen.
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PRN, I guess there will always be those who are overly sensitive about things that don't related directly to them.
As there will always be those who have no problem offending the sensibilities of others, but are eager to scream bloody murder when they feel their own have been the victim of a real or imaginary affront.
It's a silly college sports nickname that, unfortunately, has been transformed into a golden calf by some. Get over it.
It's only sensitive to those that take it that way. All of us who are part or even fully Irish aren't really offended by ND's mascot. And yes it's basically the same thing, one group is no different from another. Also go back to where I said the part about Valpo still being the Crusaders....why aren't the muslims outraged by this, it must be a big deal because some random university has a nickname that relates to them. I've never heard of a case outside one involving native americans when it comes to things like these, why's that?
Here's a couple quickies:
Vermont H.S. changes from Crusaders:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=bizarre&id=3158623
Texas college changes from Crusaders:
http://www.uiw.edu/mascot/
The Fighting Irish analogy is a poor one because there are no, to my knowledge, credible Irish-American groups legitimately offended by it. In fact, I'd speculate that most take pride in it. This is not true of Native Americans when it comes to most of these college nicknames. While many, and probably a majority, see no great offense in it, those who do, I believe, are sincere about it. For what other purpose would they raise these complaints? Do they benefit economically from Marquette University's nickname change? Does it improve life on the reservation? Does it give them greater political standing? It does none of that. So why would they make an issue of this if not for the legitimate claim it offends them. Whether you believe their complaints are meritorious or not, I don't see how you can dispute their motivations.
Regardless, I believe you miss my point, which is:
It's ironic that the pro-Warrior crowd is so willing to dismiss these claims as a bunch of overly sensitive, PC nonsense, yet they're also the first to whine how they are offended by the university's actions. A kid is told not to wear something on his head and you folks are ready for war? And you say others are being too sensitive? Over and over and over, it's nothing but p*ssing and moaning from that crowd about an issue that should have been dead long ago. The fact it hasn't died should be an embarrassment, not a source of pride. You don't see Stanford students wearing headdresses. You don't hear St. John's students chanting for the Redmen. They've learned to get over it. Too bad the Marquette community cannot. Instead, too much of the MU community has turned a silly little nickname into a golden calf, the thing they worship above all else when it comes to their alma mater. And that's a shame.
Frankly, I'm having a tough time deciding which is more pathetic: grown men at the University of Illinois weeping in public over a student dancing on abasketball court those who refuse to let go of someting as trite and trivial as a nickname more than a decade later.
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I myself am having a hard time deciding what's more pathetic: Countless universities and other institutions caving to the demigod that is political correctness or a small but vocal minority of overly-sensitive people who have nothing better to do than campaign against "offensive," "politically-incorrect" sports nicknames.
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You don't see Stanford students wearing headdresses. You don't hear St. John's students chanting for the Redmen.
I'll tell you what's most pathetic of all, Pakuni. People like you who ignore what people are saying when they argue for the return to "Warriors." You and the PC police continue to argue against a position that doesn't exist.
Nobody is advocating a return to a Native American logo or mascot.
Nobody.
Yet you continue to suggest that a return to the nickname is advocating racial insensitivity. Nonsense!! Come up with a new Warrior logo and that's the end of the argument. It could be a bird for all I care. The NCAA has no say in what our mascot is. They could not in a million years suggest a word like "Warrior" is affiliated with Native Americans. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
How can you sit there and claim to be making a logical argument when you use the Stanford Indians and St. John's Redmen as a comparison to Warriors? Are you joking? You cannot honestly equate "Warriors" with "Redmen." And if you claim you do, I think you're lying in an exasperating attempt to make some kind of point.
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They're called the Fighting Irish because of the drunken fights that they got into during football games like those of the Irish in bar fights...i think that's more than enough of a reason to get offended if ppl are going to be offended by Native American symbols.
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You don't see Stanford students wearing headdresses. You don't hear St. John's students chanting for the Redmen.
I'll tell you what's most pathetic of all, Pakuni. People like you who ignore what people are saying when they argue for the return to "Warriors." You and the PC police continue to argue against a position that doesn't exist.
Nobody is advocating a return to a Native American logo or mascot.
Nobody.
Yet you continue to suggest that a return to the nickname is advocating racial insensitivity. Nonsense!! Come up with a new Warrior logo and that's the end of the argument. It could be a bird for all I care. The NCAA has no say in what our mascot is. They could not in a million years suggest a word like "Warrior" is affiliated with Native Americans. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
How can you sit there and claim to be making a logical argument when you use the Stanford Indians and St. John's Redmen as a comparison to Warriors? Are you joking? You cannot honestly equate "Warriors" with "Redmen." And if you claim you do, I think you're lying in an exasperating attempt to make some kind of point.
Sigh ...
For the record, I could not care less about the nickname. Warriors, Eagles, Gold, Lightning, Hilltoppers, Cheese ... I do not care. It is meaningless to me. Call me PC this and PC that all you wish, but it's simply not true. IF MU went back to Warriors tomorrow, I'd be fine with it. I'm not PC about it. I'm indifferent about it.
What I'm not indifferent to, however, is the constant complaining that does nothing, in my mind, but make a large part of the Marquette community look petty and vapid. I mean, people outside the community have to look at this and wonder what the heck is with these people to whom a nickname - a nickname - takes on such God-like status. I'm also not indifferent to the fact much of the pro-Warrior crowd chooses to demonize those with whom they disagree by only suscribing the worst of intentions to them. Why is it not possible to disagree with someone opposed to the Warrior nickname without resorting to cheap shots, name-calling and personal attacks? Why is it that a Native American who says the nickname is offensive to him must be a liar and a race-baiter?
Your point to the effect that it's not being about the Native American imagery is not credible. If that were true, why the headdress? If that were true, why clothing (and avatars on this site) with the old Warrior logo? If you truly want to convince people that it's not about the imagery, you're your own worst enemy. Because every time the administration sees someone walk into the Bradley Center displaying Native imagery, it emboldens their position.
Finally, I did not equate or compare the nickname Warriors to Redmen (or Indians) Read more carefully and you'd see this. I compared the respective responses of the university communities to the name changes. By and large, the St. John's community got over it. Same with the Stanford community. Too much of Marquette community continues to whine like a child who can't let go of his blankie.
And for what? A nickname. There are times to stand up to authority and fight the good fight against a legitimate injustice. The nickname of a college sports team isn't one of them. As I said earlier, it is trite and it is trivial.
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For us though, its not even totally about the nickname, but how they got rid of it and the money involved in the whole thing. It wasn't the greatest choice to make. If it had been because it offended the majority(not greedy, power hungry minority of native americans....) then there wouldn't be a problem. But we sold our nickname, we didn't change it because it was the right thing to do.
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Finally, I did not equate or compare the nickname Warriors to Redmen (or Indians) Read more carefully and you'd see this. I compared the respective responses of the university communities to the name changes. By and large, the St. John's community got over it. Same with the Stanford community. Too much of Marquette community continues to whine like a child who can't let go of his blankie.
And for what? A nickname. There are times to stand up to authority and fight the good fight against a legitimate injustice. The nickname of a college sports team isn't one of them. As I said earlier, it is trite and it is trivial.
Unbelievable.
The St. John's community "got over it" because they didn't have a leg to stand on. Their name was REDMEN!! Stanford was called the INDIANS! Dartmouth was called the INDIANS!! Do you think these schools could justify keeping their nicknames, but chaning their mascots?
And if you don't care about it, stop responding.
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Finally, I did not equate or compare the nickname Warriors to Redmen (or Indians) Read more carefully and you'd see this. I compared the respective responses of the university communities to the name changes. By and large, the St. John's community got over it. Same with the Stanford community. Too much of Marquette community continues to whine like a child who can't let go of his blankie.
And for what? A nickname. There are times to stand up to authority and fight the good fight against a legitimate injustice. The nickname of a college sports team isn't one of them. As I said earlier, it is trite and it is trivial.
Unbelievable.
The St. John's community "got over it" because they didn't have a leg to stand on. Their name was REDMEN!! Stanford was called the INDIANS! Dartmouth was called the INDIANS!! Do you think these schools could justify keeping their nicknames, but chaning their mascots?
And if you don't care about it, stop responding.
OK, one simple question: If it's only about the name to you, and not the mascot, why on earth are you defending a kid who wears a Native American headdress to the games?
You say that schools with unequivocally Native American nicknames don't have a leg to stand on. Fine. So how can you maintain that position while at the same time deifying a kid who is making the MU nickname issue all about the Native American issue? Does he have a leg to stand on that St. John's or Stanford did not?
Seems a little contradictory.
Why do I keep responding? Because I get tired of people who continue to make Marquette University look bad (and held MU make itself look bad) by refusing to let this issue die. It's stunning to me that people continue to invest such time and energy in something so insignificant after more 12 years. But the fact that you do makes Marquette students and alums look like a bunch of spoiled kids lying in the grocery store aisle pounding your fists on the floor because mommy wouldn't buy you the cereal with the best prize inside.
There are so many more important things happening at Marquette, yet this continues to get all the attention. Because of that the university is diminished.
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Finally, I did not equate or compare the nickname Warriors to Redmen (or Indians) Read more carefully and you'd see this. I compared the respective responses of the university communities to the name changes. By and large, the St. John's community got over it. Same with the Stanford community. Too much of Marquette community continues to whine like a child who can't let go of his blankie.
And for what? A nickname. There are times to stand up to authority and fight the good fight against a legitimate injustice. The nickname of a college sports team isn't one of them. As I said earlier, it is trite and it is trivial.
Unbelievable.
The St. John's community "got over it" because they didn't have a leg to stand on. Their name was REDMEN!! Stanford was called the INDIANS! Dartmouth was called the INDIANS!! Do you think these schools could justify keeping their nicknames, but chaning their mascots?
And if you don't care about it, stop responding.
OK, one simple question: If it's only about the name to you, and not the mascot, why on earth are you defending a kid who wears a Native American headdress to the games?
You say that schools with unequivocally Native American nicknames don't have a leg to stand on. Fine. So how can you maintain that position while at the same time deifying a kid who is making the MU nickname issue all about the Native American issue? Does he have a leg to stand on that St. John's or Stanford did not?
Seems a little contradictory.
Why do I keep responding? Because I get tired of people who continue to make Marquette University look bad (and help MU make itself look bad) by refusing to let this issue die. It's stunning to me that people continue to invest such time and energy in something so insignificant after more 12 years. But the fact that you do makes Marquette students and alums look like a bunch of spoiled kids lying in the grocery store aisle pounding your fists on the floor because mommy wouldn't buy you the cereal with the best prize inside.
There are so many more important things happening at Marquette, yet this continues to get all the attention. Because of that the university is diminished.
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OK, one simple question: If it's only about the name to you, and not the mascot, why on earth are you defending a kid who wears a Native American headdress to the games?
You say that schools with unequivocally Native American nicknames don't have a leg to stand on. Fine. So how can you maintain that position while at the same time deifying a kid who is making the MU nickname issue all about the Native American issue? Does he have a leg to stand on that St. John's or Stanford did not?
Seems a little contradictory.
Why do I keep responding? Because I get tired of people who continue to make Marquette University look bad (and held MU make itself look bad) by refusing to let this issue die. It's stunning to me that people continue to invest such time and energy in something so insignificant after more 12 years. But the fact that you do makes Marquette students and alums look like a bunch of spoiled kids lying in the grocery store aisle pounding your fists on the floor because mommy wouldn't buy you the cereal with the best prize inside.
There are so many more important things happening at Marquette, yet this continues to get all the attention. Because of that the university is diminished.
One simple answer -- I am defending a kid's choice to wear an symbol associated with the "Warrior" nickname at Marquette -- a name that should never have been changed. This student, and others, use Native American imagery at Marquette in support of "Warriors" because there is no other image associated with the name. Get a new Warrior image and the Native American imagery disappears.
Is it really that hard to understand? I don't think it is. I know I, and others, have said the same thing dozens of times on this board. You obviously read this board so you must have seen this, yet you continue to claim there is support for Native American imagery. You continue to argue against a non-existent stance. There is NO SUPPORT FOR NATIVE AMERICAN IMAGERY!! Marquette has clearly been deaf to the cries of its supporters for more than a dozen years so we've taken to visible images to show our displeasure.
Your claim that the university is diminished is pathetic. Shame on them for trying to bully this kid!!! This guy McMahon betrayed his loyalty like the university has betrayed all of us since 1994.
But no, let's pity poor "diminished" Marquette. Their own students and alums have voiced their displeasure in overwhelming numbers and they have determined that our opinions were unworthy of action. They have proven they do not care one iota about the "Marquette Community" they speak of so frequently.
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No matter how hard you try to spin it otherwise, a t-shirt, sign or other outward display of Native American imagery is not just a generic endorsement of Warriors, it's an endorsement of the image long associated with that nickname. How can you expect the two from ever being separated from one another if you continue to link them?
Your continued claims about there being no support for Native imageries is a lie. It's proven so by this tempest in a teapot over the headdress. If there were no support, the pro-Warrior crowd would be saying "That's not the image we want associated with Marquette." But that's not what's happening. No, you're rallying around the kid, showing support for an image you claim has no support. Sorry, but you can't claim not to endorse the image while at the same time supporting its use.
Tell me, is the pro-Warrior crowd so lacking in imagination that they cannot show support for the Warrior nickname without dragging a 20-year-old T-shirt out of the closet or wearing a headdress? If you want the nickname to be associated with another image, stop using the old one and come up with something new. Make Joan of Arc T-shirts and wear them to the game. Make signs showing a knight and call him the Marquette Warrior. Bring a caveman's club made of styrofoam (just, please, don't offend the Geico guys). But don't sit on the sidelines whining about how there's no other image associated with the name when you've done NOTHING to associate it with another image. To the contrary, you've ONLY associated it with Native Americans. You go out of your way to associate it with Native Americans.
Fact is, you're asking for your cake while washing down its crumbs down with a cold glass of milk.
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Pakuni, you cannot blame alumni for a policy that the University Adminstration bungled. Actually, both sides have painted themselves into their respective corners: The University Administration by refusing to respect the overwhelming desire of the alumni regarding the Warrior nickname and the Alums by clinging to the the previous Native American warrior symbols which used to be sanctioned by the University. Creating professional logos and symbols are 1) expensive to do properly and 2) really the responsibilty of the administration. Until both sides come out of their corners and begin a serious dialog on this issue again, I am afraid that we will be stuck with the status quo which will continue to involve Native American imagery in relation to the overwhelming continued support for the Warrior nickname.
Other universities that have come up with compromise solutions are University of Illinois who keep the "Fighting Illini" nickname but get rid of "Chief Illiniwek." The Florida Seminoles are another story altogether.
I have attached the official University of Illinois response in an FAQ regarding the nickname.
Q Will the names Illini and Fighting Illini be retained?
A Yes, absolutely.
It is generally understood that the name Illini is short for the name of the state from which the University takes its name: Illinois. The Fighting Illini name is a common reference to an athletic team’s competitiveness and drive for excellence, as is the case with numerous “Fighting”-nicknamed athletics at other universities (e.g., Fighting Irish).
The BOT on several occasions has formally spelled out aspects of the consensus process regarding the Chief Illiniwek tradition and stipulated that the names Illini and Fighting Illini would be retained.
The NCAA rescinded its objections to Illini and Fighting once its Executive Committee had a better understanding of their origins and meanings
Many among those who favor an end to the Chief tradition nevertheless favor retention of the names Illini and Fighting Illini.
Everyone knows that Illini is an indian tribe that used to live in this region. Perhaps the state of Illinois should change its name to not offend anyone. ;D
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if he wears the Warriors headress that he has been wearing to the games since the Rutgers game.
He sits in the front row and Jim McMahon VP of residence life or something like that called him into his office and told him that if he wears it for Game day or the game tomorrow it will be confiscated and he will most likely be ejected. He told him that we need to be sensitive to Native American feelings.
Quite ironic since tomorrow we are honoring the 77 WARRIORS !!!!!!!!!
>:(
I know your son (I'm Class of 2010) and lived in the same dorm as him last year. I totally supported him the entire year with his headress. I'm a big supporter of the Warrior nickname, in fact, I don't own any "Golden Eagle" gear, rather a few "Warriors" shirts.
Any word on if he'll be allowed to wear it next year?
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He's going to wear it and see what happens.