Oh My!

[4everwarriors]

One last time just for grins. Let's see, the teams left standing to play on Championship Monday have, ah, STUD BIG MEN.

[maxpower773]

Congratulations...you've just stated something everyone else here knows....reminds me of someone else who likes to post on how right he is...at least he makes good points once in a while.

[ChicosBailBonds]

One last time just for grins. Let's see, the teams left standing to play on Championship Monday have, ah, STUD BIG MEN.

Yes, I think you've hit on it....all we have to do is recruit 3 NBA big men to Milwaukee, WI and we should be in the championship.

In fact, I'll bet they are lining up right now on Wisconsin Ave.  Afterall, we've only had 2 in the last 20 years so it should be quite easy to just go to the corner elementary school and pick them up.

[Murffieus]

Well last year there were FOUR  final 4 teams that were "stud laden" --------this year THREE----that's SEVEN "stud laden" teams out of EIGHT in the final 4 the last two years

Should tell you something!

[Marquette84]

St. Johns, USF, UConn and South Florida were led by big men as well this past season.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well last year there were FOUR  final 4 teams that were "stud laden" --------this year THREE----that's SEVEN "stud laden" teams out of EIGHT in the final 4 the last two years

Should tell you something!

I would say 100 out of the last 100 final 4 teams had good players at every postion. How's that for insight?

To make it this far you have to have talent at all postions, not just the front line or the back court.

C'mon guys. This is really silly.

[maxpower773]

Well last year there were FOUR  final 4 teams that were "stud laden" --------this year THREE----that's SEVEN "stud laden" teams out of EIGHT in the final 4 the last two years

Should tell you something!

I would say 100 out of the last 100 final 4 teams had good players at every postion. How's that for insight?

To make it this far you have to have talent at all postions, not just the front line or the back court.

C'mon guys. This is really silly.

Exactly. Find a team that won the championship that hasn't had good balance. Even those that made it to the final four had balanced scoring, its common sense. What's been stated about big men is known by everyone here.  Good centers are harder to guard for the simple fact that there are less of them.(not to mention there are 4 or 5 nba players at the 4 or 5 for the final four teams)

[Marquette84]

I think the point that some of try to make is that it is possible to get deep in the NCAA tournament without a 7-footer.

Before our 2007-08 freshmen have even finished High School, we have people publicly doubting their ability to help MU improve on our recent performance.

Last year the complaints were that that Crean recruited too many guards.

Now that he has three inside players lined up--including one with immedeate impact potential--we STILL have complaints.  They should be bigger, or more athletic, or less athletic but wider, or less wide but taller, or not as tall but better leapers, or with better hands, or less prone to turnovers, or whatever.

We got to the Final Four five years ago with a center who measured out for the NBA at 6 feet 6 1/2 inches.  Our incoming recruits are in that same size category. 

[ecompt]

Ohio State's stud big man is so important that his team has played better without him this tournament. If you don't think Conley and his fellow guards are more important than Oden is, then you haven't been watching. Take Conley off this team and it's out in the second round.

[Sir Lawrence]

Pomeroy would take exception to your analysis:

"If you don’t think Greg Oden is the most dominant player in the college game, you’re just not thinking. Luke Winn has documented the plus/minus data on Oden, but that’s only half the story. As done previously, I prefer to compare what happens to the Buckeyes while Oden is on and off the court. Here’s how Ohio State have fared in both cases:

Opp.        ON    OFF
Memphis   64-38  28-38
Tennessee 40-26  45-58
Xavier    55-52  23-19
CCSU      60-39  18-18

Ohio State opponents not only need to get Oden off the court, but beat up the Buckeyes while he’s on the bench. (OK, Xavier was an exception. Mad props to Justin Cage and Brandon Cole.)"

link:  http://kenpom.com/blog/

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the point that some of try to make is that it is possible to get deep in the NCAA tournament without a 7-footer.

Before our 2007-08 freshmen have even finished High School, we have people publicly doubting their ability to help MU improve on our recent performance.

Last year the complaints were that that Crean recruited too many guards.

Now that he has three inside players lined up--including one with immedeate impact potential--we STILL have complaints.  They should be bigger, or more athletic, or less athletic but wider, or less wide but taller, or not as tall but better leapers, or with better hands, or less prone to turnovers, or whatever.

We got to the Final Four five years ago with a center who measured out for the NBA at 6 feet 6 1/2 inches.  Our incoming recruits are in that same size category. 

I know what you are getting at.... I'm just saying that we shouldn't "take the bait" with this argument.

I think it's pretty obvious that all of the final 4 teams have good/great big men, because to be a final 4 team you need good players at every postion.

4everwarriors, if you really want to prove that big men are so valuable, find a team with terrible guards and great big men that has gone far. That would prove your argument more than pointing to great teams with talent at all of the positions.

Crean has recruited plenty of big men, but just hasn't landed a big men as good as his star guards (wade, diener, james, mcneal) and SF (novak, matthews). I'm not exactly sure why we haven't gotten one of them yet, but we haven't.

Some say its the offense, crean's system, etc.... but you also have to keep in mind that the schools we are going against for these guys are pretty good, so they have a lot to offer as well. Maybe the other schools were just more appealing for any number of reasons.

Keep in mind we are dealing with 18 yr old kids... who knows why they didn't come to MU.... Maybe it's the school colors, or mascot, or lunch room, or dorms, or shoes, or family, etc... It could be 1000 things. 

ALSO: I think people forget that John Harris was a pretty nice big man that Crean didn't recruit, but developed pretty nicely in his 4 years. He was by no means all conference, but a nice PF/C that certainly could play in the big east if he was still eligible.

Merrit
Jackson
Jackson
Harris
Nnamaka
Barro
Sanders

It's not a terrible group, its just not as strong as the guards that have been here and thats probably because there are just more good guards available across the country.

[augoman]

Nnamaka, of course, transferred from Arizona when K O'neil came to MU.

[jutaw22mu]

thank you captain obvious for your insightful post.

[CTWarrior]

ALSO: I think people forget that John Harris was a pretty nice big man that Crean didn't recruit, but developed pretty nicely in his 4 years. He was by no means all conference, but a nice PF/C that certainly could play in the big east if he was still eligible.

Merrit
Jackson
Jackson
Harris
Nnamaka
Barro
Sanders

It's not a terrible group, its just not as strong as the guards that have been here and thats probably because there are just more good guards available across the country.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you here, 2002.  For 7 or 8 recruiting classes, the above is pretty awful, especially when you consider that TC didn't recruit Harris or Nnamaka and that getting RJax was very lucky (though TC did get him and deserves a lot of credit for it.)  Of the others, MJax and Sanders were very limited role players, not starters on NCAA quality teams.  Merritt was a great sign and TC and staff has turned Barro into a very good one. 

I am not one who wants to get rid of TC, because IMO the good far outweighs the bad, and I agree that guards come first, but if we don't start doing better at recruiting frontcourt talent, I believe the last few seasons will be about what we can expect in our good seasons.  A flawed team that can be dangerous and may win a game or two in the tournament if the matchups are favorable.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

ALSO: I think people forget that John Harris was a pretty nice big man that Crean didn't recruit, but developed pretty nicely in his 4 years. He was by no means all conference, but a nice PF/C that certainly could play in the big east if he was still eligible.

Merrit
Jackson
Jackson
Harris
Nnamaka
Barro
Sanders

It's not a terrible group, its just not as strong as the guards that have been here and thats probably because there are just more good guards available across the country.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you here, 2002.  For 7 or 8 recruiting classes, the above is pretty awful, especially when you consider that TC didn't recruit Harris or Nnamaka and that getting RJax was very lucky (though TC did get him and deserves a lot of credit for it.)  Of the others, MJax and Sanders were very limited role players, not starters on NCAA quality teams.  Merritt was a great sign and TC and staff has turned Barro into a very good one. 

I am not one who wants to get rid of TC, because IMO the good far outweighs the bad, and I agree that guards come first, but if we don't start doing better at recruiting frontcourt talent, I believe the last few seasons will be about what we can expect in our good seasons.  A flawed team that can be dangerous and may win a game or two in the tournament if the matchups are favorable.

Well, I know what you mean, I just think that the guards have been so good that it makes the big men look bad.

Think about Deane's best recruits. I know some people around here love Lovette, but Crean's big men have been better than Deane's... it's just that Crean's guards are so good that it makes the big men look weaker than they actually are.

I don't think the big men have been great, I'm just saying they are better than most people are giving them credit for.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nnamaka, of course, transferred from Arizona when K O'neil came to MU.

Wait, I'm talking about Olumna Nnmaka (sp) from Sweeden. Who are you talking about?

[augoman]

apologies, '02, somehow I brain-farted on ron curry.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

apologies, '02, somehow I brain-farted on ron curry.

No sweat.

I'm re-reading my posts, and I guess Crean's big men haven't been game changers, but I guess I just don't think the void is as big as some imply.

Ask me again in 2-3 years... and my mind might change. These next few years will tell us a lot about Crean and the state of the MU program.

We've experienced a peak (03) and some valleys (UofL loss, NIT home loss). Let's see where the team gets on its way back up. Hopefully the peak with be the same and the drop off will be considerably less.

[DAtruth]

unlv teams  werent really balanced..grandmama..the elastic man stacey augmon..and the bald guy  nba expert on espn..greg anthony?...star laden but great big men no doubt

[CTWarrior]

Well, I know what you mean, I just think that the guards have been so good that it makes the big men look bad.

Think about Deane's best recruits. I know some people around here love Lovette, but Crean's big men have been better than Deane's... it's just that Crean's guards are so good that it makes the big men look weaker than they actually are.

I don't think the big men have been great, I'm just saying they are better than most people are giving them credit for.

I don't think Deane is the standard here.  I think most of us will agree that Deane was relieved of his duties basically because of his poor recruiting.  I'm a little fuzzy on who recruited who since it has been a while, but if Deane brought in Nnamaka, Lovette and Harris in his five years, he's at least in the same ballpark as Crean when it comes to big men. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well, I know what you mean, I just think that the guards have been so good that it makes the big men look bad.

Think about Deane's best recruits. I know some people around here love Lovette, but Crean's big men have been better than Deane's... it's just that Crean's guards are so good that it makes the big men look weaker than they actually are.

I don't think the big men have been great, I'm just saying they are better than most people are giving them credit for.

I don't think Deane is the standard here.  I think most of us will agree that Deane was relieved of his duties basically because of his poor recruiting.  I'm a little fuzzy on who recruited who since it has been a while, but if Deane brought in Nnamaka, Lovette and Harris in his five years, he's at least in the same ballpark as Crean when it comes to big men. 

I agree that Deane isn't the standard, and I was thinking that as I was typing it haha.

again, I just think the guards have been SO good that it has made the big men look especially bad.

The good news is that it really only takes 1 stud to "turn the tide" and the rest of our big men (who have been primarly role players) will fill in nicely around him.

Oh, and as far as Harris goes... I know Deane recruited him, but I will give Crean credit for developing him. Harris didn't even get off the bench as a frosh. when Deane was at MU. When Crean arrived Harris played some as a soph and played a lot as a junior and senior. He was a solid player.

[nycwarrior]

One big difference between MU and the elite programs is the ability to turn big guys who aren't all-world into beefy contributors.

Michigan State always seems to have a couple home-grown 6-10 guys who have 270 pounds to throw around for 10-15 minutes a game AND learn to catch, drop-step and hit a lay-up when it's there.

When you think about MU's big body guys, it seems like they never improve. Clausen and Grimm never became serviceable. Marcus Jackson never learned a drop step. Merritt made valuable contribution throughout his career despite some shoulder problems that held him back, but his numbers actually went down after his sophomore year.

It's a bit of a generalization but I don't think it's unfair to say that at MU it seems like our bigger guys - Ooze excepted - make frustratingly little improvement over time.