Buying Services - New Cars

[Benny B]

I see all these "valet car buying services" offered by the likes of Costco, USAA, AAA, etc. out there who - as best I can figure - basically charge you a $250-1,000 fee to write down your specs and go find the car you want (presumably at the best price) from whichever of the dealers within a given radius have that car.

The downside I see in my current situation is that the car I want is almost certainly going to have to be a factory order (I checked cars.com and autotrader.com and nobody within 500 miles has anything close on their lot)... so my guess is that a buying service probably isn't going to save me enough money off MSRP to justify their fee (or that I probably couldn't get myself just by fogging a mirror at the dealership), but frankly, I don't have the time or desire to visit a bunch of dealerships and watch their little song and dance routines.

So has anyone tried buying a new car by essentially emulating the buying services and faxing and/or emailing the dealers in your area to see who will give you the best price?

[Strokin 3s]

When I bought my last car (4 Runner) about 5 years ago now, I either called and got the e-mail or if they didn't provide an e-mail called and got the e-mail of each dealership's "internet sales" person.

Sent them all the same e-mail and saw what came back.

Working with the "internet sales" person they know they are easily shopped and should basically come in with their lowest offer right away.

You can always go in then and meet with them, but be careful on your trade then as they might try to make money back that way.

[jficke13]

I've always thought that if Amazon partnered with one of the major automakers and just basically did a buy-it-now, this is the price, no negotiation, no dealership overhead, no rustproofing nonsense, that they would end up selling all of the cars.

Dealerships came into being as a way to shield the automakers from products liability suits in the 30s... it's an obsolete model that offers precisely 0 upside to the marketplace.

[mu03eng]

I've always thought that if Amazon partnered with one of the major automakers and just basically did a buy-it-now, this is the price, no negotiation, no dealership overhead, no rustproofing nonsense, that they would end up selling all of the cars.

Dealerships came into being as a way to shield the automakers from products liability suits in the 30s... it's an obsolete model that offers precisely 0 upside to the marketplace.

Lots of legal reasons that won't work right now, including that physical dealerships are required by law. Which is why Telsa struggles in their go to market strategy.

I agree it makes sense as a business model but a lot of congressional and state house work has to go into making it legal/viable.


*edit to add another thought: this model would also allow the auto manufactures to go direct to customers for sales so they don't have to guess at what packages/colors, etc that customers want. I'd have zero issue with putting an order for a car the way I want it at a price that makes sense 3 months in advance

[jficke13]

Lots of legal reasons that won't work right now, including that physical dealerships are required by law. Which is why Telsa struggles in their go to market strategy.

I agree it makes sense as a business model but a lot of congressional and state house work has to go into making it legal/viable.


*edit to add another thought: this model would also allow the auto manufactures to go direct to customers for sales so they don't have to guess at what packages/colors, etc that customers want. I'd have zero issue with putting an order for a car the way I want it at a price that makes sense 3 months in advance

Oh, I'm aware that anti-competitive legislation is a barrier to the business model of direct-to-consumer auto sales working. I'm just saying there's no *good* reason why dealerships exist anymore. They are pure market inefficiency and legacy processes at their finest.

[jficke13]

But to actually respond to Benny's post (sorry about that):

Both my dad and I in our most recent car purchases essentially did the email every dealership in the area thing. If you are flexible on some things (color, certain options), then you usually have decent bargaining power that way. If you damn well need a red car with XYZ, and only one dealer has red car with XYZ, then you're kinda boned no matter what.

As attractive as not dealing with car salesmen/dealerships sounds, I'm not sure it's worth the cash to me to shell out $1k for that privilege.

[naginiF]

I've done the faxing/calling around on my last two cars (both factory orders) and it's a great way to not only get the best price but also get a feel for the personality you'll be dealing with.

One thing i stumbled into last time was that by expanding my search outside of my immediate metro area, at the time there were only two Audi dealerships in KC and they were expensive and pricks, i had a better experience.  Contacted the dealership in Springfield, MO and he was a bit cheaper and WAY easier to deal with.  If you don't mind a 2hr drive you may want to check some close by mid sized towns where the dealerships don't get as much traffic.

[StillAWarrior]

I've also done it this way.  I just set up a new single purpose gmail account and went at it.  Some dealerships were really good, others not as good.  They obviously know you're sending it to everyone so, as someone said above, they come in with some pretty good prices.  But you can always play them against each other to get them to even go lower.  With your very unique car in mind, it might not work as well.  When I did it, it took a couple days of exchanging emails and ultimately I just had to drive to one dealer to pick up the car.

[MU82]

Unless Costco has changed how they do things, they do not charge for their service.

I bought two cars using their service, both were new models that were fetching list price - or in the case of the Prius we bought in 2006, over list.

How the Costco service worked then (and still in 2012, when we bought our last new car) was that I called Costco for the name of a dealer selling the make I wanted. They sent the dealer my information and someone from the dealership contacted me. I then went in, took my test drive and agreed to buy the car for the price Costco negotiated in advance. In the case of the Prius, it was list minus $200.

I wouldn't do this with a less-popular car because I believe I could negotiate a lower price than Costco's.

When I bought my SUV in 2011, I saw an ad in the paper for the car I wanted at a price that seemed unbelievable when I compared it to Kelly Blue Book, Edmunds and the like. But I called the dealer and they had it in stock. It was the last of the model year on their lot and I had to buy that exact car. It was black, the same color as our other car, and I didn't really want that color. So I called a competing dealer and talked to the manager. I told him I was ready to come in and buy at the price the other dealership was offering, but that I wanted one of three colors. He put me on hold, came back about 5 minute later, and told me to come on in.

We are in the market again and I might do the email thing that others have described.

As for car-buying being an Internet-only thing someday ... I guess that's possible, but most people want to take at least one test drive to make sure the car "fits" them properly. Tough to take a test drive on the interwebs!

Of course, if they're all self-driving someday, nobody will care about that.

[Benny B]

So I sent out 10 emails yesterday and about 15 minutes after I posted this thread, I get my first response for almost a thousand under invoice (i.e. about $3500 under list) and 6-8 weeks for delivery.  The other nine haven't responded, though I did give a deadline of Friday noon, so we'll see who trickles in at the last minute, but if no one overtakes the clubhouse leader, I'll be perfectly content.

[Litehouse]

I'm in the process of buying a new car and ran into something I've never seen before.  A local dealership got a model exactly like we want, but it was damaged at the factory/during transport.  The dented/scratched panel was repaired, and now they're selling it as a "Certified Used" with only 20 miles on it.  Seems like a decent deal, we save a couple thousand bucks, and actually get an extra year of warranty because of the Certified Used status.  I've just never seen this policy of selling a new car as used before.

[Benny B]

I'm in the process of buying a new car and ran into something I've never seen before.  A local dealership got a model exactly like we want, but it was damaged at the factory/during transport.  The dented/scratched panel was repaired, and now they're selling it as a "Certified Used" with only 20 miles on it.  Seems like a decent deal, we save a couple thousand bucks, and actually get an extra year of warranty because of the Certified Used status.  I've just never seen this policy of selling a new car as used before.

Your situation with a damaged panel seems like an anomaly, but my guess is that it (a new car sold as used) probably happens more often than one would think... some states have a cooling-off statute that applies to cars (though in Wisconsin, it only applies to cars bought at car shows, not when bought at the dealership), but some dealers may still offer a 24-72 hour return window even if not required to by law.  I suspect very few actually exercise the option (because I'm sure isn't as easy as returning an unopened gift to Wal-Mart with a receipt), but even if it happens a handful of times every year, once those cars are titled in the buyer's name - if for only a day or even a few hours - I wouldn't think they could sell them as "New" at that point, whether they had 10 or 1,000 miles on them.

However, in the same way, that "last of the model year" car they have on the lot that's been used as a loaner and has nearly 1,000 miles on it... I think they can still sell those as "new" because they've never been titled to a buyer.  That's why I'd be leery of a car with more than 100 miles on it being sold as "new"... not sure whether loaners or rentals get abused more, but I can speak from experience* that they both take their share of beatings.

* Don't ask me how I know, just trust me that I know.

[Jay Bee]

ZFB found his white van on Craigslist. $800, might be the way to go.

[MU82]

So I sent out 10 emails yesterday and about 15 minutes after I posted this thread, I get my first response for almost a thousand under invoice (i.e. about $3500 under list) and 6-8 weeks for delivery.  The other nine haven't responded, though I did give a deadline of Friday noon, so we'll see who trickles in at the last minute, but if no one overtakes the clubhouse leader, I'll be perfectly content.

Benny, as we will be buying a new car within a month or so, I'm very interested in how this goes for you, so please keep us posted.

Did you ask for a specific model, trim, etc? Did you give them a top price you were willing to pay or did you just invite them to make their best offer?

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Your situation with a damaged panel seems like an anomaly, but my guess is that it (a new car sold as used) probably happens more often than one would think

In the three years of selling at a decent-sized dealership, this has never happened at my work.  I have sold vehicles which were damaged during delivery/freight, and any damage over a few hundred dollars needs to be disclosed to the customer; however, the manufacturer reimburses the dealership for the damage, and the reimbursement is (partially) passed onto the customer who bought the damaged car.  This allows for a customer to buy a new vehicle, (with new vehicle financing, new vehicle incentives and rebates, etc), for significantly cheaper than one which was not damaged.

If the vehicle becomes a CPO, (certified pre-owned), it has been titled, and you are not going to be the first owner, (whether it has 2 miles or 35k miles on it).  It's possible a dealership can have a vehicle damaged during delivery, purchase the vehicles themselves, (and have it titled by the dealership), not have to disclose the damage, take the reimbursement from the manufacturer, and price it as a CPO.  Most CPO's receive the balance of the factory warranty, plus an additional 12 months or 12k miles.

... some states have a cooling-off statute that applies to cars (though in Wisconsin, it only applies to cars bought at car shows, not when bought at the dealership), but some dealers may still offer a 24-72 hour return window even if not required to by law.  I suspect very few actually exercise the option (because I'm sure isn't as easy as returning an unopened gift to Wal-Mart with a receipt), but even if it happens a handful of times every year, once those cars are titled in the buyer's name - if for only a day or even a few hours - I wouldn't think they could sell them as "New" at that point, whether they had 10 or 1,000 miles on them.

I've had a number of customers think they had some kind of 5-day rule in which they can return a large purchase.  In the state of Illinois, it simply isn't true.  You came to my work to buy a car; I'm not a traveling encyclopedia salesman taking advantage of the elderly or lonely housewives.  We do--on occasion--have customers return vehicles, (I had a heart-breaking story of a nice old guy who bought a sedan, and brought it to home to his very elderly wife who simply couldn't sit in the vehicle).  Once the plates have been issued/transferred with the state, we can't "un-do" a purchase.  We can give you as much as possible when taking your vehicle in on trade, or give you the best possible deal on a replacement vehicle, but we can not simply take the vehicle back.

However, in the same way, that "last of the model year" car they have on the lot that's been used as a loaner and has nearly 1,000 miles on it... I think they can still sell those as "new" because they've never been titled to a buyer.  That's why I'd be leery of a car with more than 100 miles on it being sold as "new"... not sure whether loaners or rentals get abused more, but I can speak from experience* that they both take their share of beatings.

You're absolutely correct, loaners, (we affectionately call them DRAC "dealer rent-a-car"), have never been titled and you would be the first owner.  Our DRAC vehicles need to be kept under 6k miles, and most have over 5k miles on them.  A dealership receives discounts on every DRAC vehicle varying on model (between $750 and $2200 on what I sell), and these savings can be passed onto the consumer, along with all new car financing, incentives, rebates, etc.  If you are considering leasing, a DRAC car may be perfect for you, (instead of doing 12k/year, lease a DRAC with 4k miles, up the contract to 15k/year, and pocket the difference).

[tower912]

ZFB found his white van on Craigslist. $800, might be the way to go.

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2016/09/michigan_man_turns_old_van_int.html#incart_river_home_pop

ZFB?

[reinko]

I used Truecar to buy the most recent Reinko Family Truckster a few weeks back.  Super easy and efficient.  I knew the exact model, color, and car I wanted.  Put it into Truecar, had 4 dealers call me within two hours with their best price.  Got 4 prices, went back to the three of them, can you beat this best price?  If not, say thanks, but taking my business elsewhere.   One dealership beat it, went back to the original with the best price I had gotten, they couldn't beat it.  Put a $500 deposit on it, went the next day, quick test drive, 90 minutes the car was mine.

[Benny B]

Benny, as we will be buying a new car within a month or so, I'm very interested in how this goes for you, so please keep us posted.

Did you ask for a specific model, trim, etc? Did you give them a top price you were willing to pay or did you just invite them to make their best offer?

They mfg just started taking orders for the 2017 model year and most dealers don't even have the model/trim I wanted (in any color or any engine) on the lot yet... since I knew it would be a factory order, I went ahead and specified the model/engine/trim/color, named the exact accessories I wanted, asked them to quote their price & the deposit amount, gave them a deadline, and told them I intended to place order within the next week.  I went to the websites for each of the dealers, wrote down the email address of the Internet Sales Manager (or the Sales Manager if no ISM's), typed a two sentence email, attached the word file, and started to wait.

If I wasn't willing to wait 2-3 months for delivery or was buying something that is more widely available, I probably would have limited my request to just model, trim, and the 2 or 3 accessories that I absolutely wanted... and have them quote for whatever they have on the lot that meets the minimum specs.

My goal was to make this as easy as possible for the dealership... not only are they fielding these requests from the buying services, I'm sure I'm not the only end-customer who has thought of doing this on their own.  So I figured I'd get the best response by minimizing the time the dealer had to spend on my request, and not wasting their time having to cross-reference inventory... which perhaps I miscalculated, because here I am about 48 hours later (and 21 hours from the deadline), and I still only have the one response. 

That said, even if nobody else bothers responding, I'll be content with the offer I have and consider this a success.

If I can remember to do it when I get home, I'll attach the word doc I used.  Otherwise, I'm sure there are templates out there, I just started from scratch since it would have taken me longer to search for the right template rather than draw it up myself.

[Benny B]

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2016/09/michigan_man_turns_old_van_int.html#incart_river_home_pop

ZFB?

The hair looks about right.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

I see all these "valet car buying services" offered by the likes of Costco, USAA, AAA, etc. out there who - as best I can figure - basically charge you a $250-1,000 fee to write down your specs and go find the car you want (presumably at the best price) from whichever of the dealers within a given radius have that car.

The downside I see in my current situation is that the car I want is almost certainly going to have to be a factory order (I checked cars.com and autotrader.com and nobody within 500 miles has anything close on their lot)... so my guess is that a buying service probably isn't going to save me enough money off MSRP to justify their fee (or that I probably couldn't get myself just by fogging a mirror at the dealership), but frankly, I don't have the time or desire to visit a bunch of dealerships and watch their little song and dance routines.

So has anyone tried buying a new car by essentially emulating the buying services and faxing and/or emailing the dealers in your area to see who will give you the best price?

http://www.ventureevolved.com/how-to-buy-a-new-car/

[MU82]

They mfg just started taking orders for the 2017 model year and most dealers don't even have the model/trim I wanted (in any color or any engine) on the lot yet... since I knew it would be a factory order, I went ahead and specified the model/engine/trim/color, named the exact accessories I wanted, asked them to quote their price & the deposit amount, gave them a deadline, and told them I intended to place order within the next week.  I went to the websites for each of the dealers, wrote down the email address of the Internet Sales Manager (or the Sales Manager if no ISM's), typed a two sentence email, attached the word file, and started to wait.

If I wasn't willing to wait 2-3 months for delivery or was buying something that is more widely available, I probably would have limited my request to just model, trim, and the 2 or 3 accessories that I absolutely wanted... and have them quote for whatever they have on the lot that meets the minimum specs.

My goal was to make this as easy as possible for the dealership... not only are they fielding these requests from the buying services, I'm sure I'm not the only end-customer who has thought of doing this on their own.  So I figured I'd get the best response by minimizing the time the dealer had to spend on my request, and not wasting their time having to cross-reference inventory... which perhaps I miscalculated, because here I am about 48 hours later (and 21 hours from the deadline), and I still only have the one response. 

That said, even if nobody else bothers responding, I'll be content with the offer I have and consider this a success.

If I can remember to do it when I get home, I'll attach the word doc I used.  Otherwise, I'm sure there are templates out there, I just started from scratch since it would have taken me longer to search for the right template rather than draw it up myself.

Thanks Benny.

And reinko, thanks for that info on Truecar. Sounds interesting.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2016/09/michigan_man_turns_old_van_int.html#incart_river_home_pop

ZFB?

nah, too many windows for my liking.

edit:  though, Vanessa is a slutty name for a van.

[rocket surgeon]

ZFB found his white van on Craigslist. $800, might be the way to go.

Yeah but, he needed shag carpeted walls though Eyn'a?

[rocket surgeon]

I just completed an extensive search and then purchase of a used jeep on car gurus if that qualifies or helps.  It worked out very well and saved me a lot of time, money and driving

[reinko]

I just completed an extensive search and then purchase of a used jeep on car gurus if that qualifies or helps.  It worked out very well and saved me a lot of time, money and driving

+1 on Car Guru's good site.

[Benny B]

So I ended up with two emailed offers at the end of the day.  The first was nearly $1000 below invoice and the second was only $600 below invoice... unfazed by the fact that 8 dealers didn't bother to respond, the wife and I headed to the closest dealer yesterday to test drive. 

When we arrived at the dealership, we didn't wait around for someone to come talk to us.... we b-lined straight to the counter (where both the sales rep and floor manager were standing) and made it very clear that a) we were ordering an Outback Touring today, b) we already knew they didn't have one on their lot, and c) we wanted to test drive the Limited model instead.  After a series of test drives to confirm that we had indeed picked out the car we wanted, we walked back inside and I told the salesperson that I had already emailed 10 other dealerships in the area (I didn't tell him how many offers I had) and the reason we were on their lot was because it was their sale to lose.  So having set the table for our "negotiations," I went straight to the turkey: I handed him a blank copy of the exact sheet I had emailed to the other dealers and said 'these are the options I want, let's price it out'... if there was going to be any haggling, that was the coup de grâce right there.  After doing some quick math, my guy told me the MSRP and invoice prices and asked me if my calculations matched... I told him they did.  At that point, he knew that I knew that he knew he wasn't dealing with some starry-eyed kid buying his first car, and it was smooth sailing from there.

He didn't even bother with an opening salvo (the old "here's what I'll do for you"); he told me he was going to get the out-the-door price, so he walked over to his floor manager and came back with a price that was only $80 higher than the lower quote I already had, but his OTD was less by a few hundred.  The clubhouse leader to that point must have padded his OTD, but my guy had no add-ons, no rust proofing, no VIN etching, no phantom charges, nothing.  Straight up, new car price.  I told him if he rounded the OTD down to the nearest hundred, basically knocking off $50 (because I like round numbers), it's his deal.  So a $500 deposit, a couple signatures, 15 minutes and a handshake later, we walked out having ordered a car for 2.5% below invoice.  I'm sure I could have haggled to knock off another hundred or two, but I was right in the wheelhouse of what others online were reporting they paid, and having experienced zero stress and none of the usual "salesmanship" bullshiite, we figured we weren't going to dip into his pocket any further and instead, simply called it a day.

The afternoon couldn't have gone any smoother.  Goes to show how a little pre-buy research and effort can put the enjoyment back into buying a car.

[MU82]

So I ended up with two emailed offers at the end of the day.  The first was nearly $1000 below invoice and the second was only $600 below invoice... unfazed by the fact that 8 dealers didn't bother to respond, the wife and I headed to the closest dealer yesterday to test drive. 

When we arrived at the dealership, we didn't wait around for someone to come talk to us.... we b-lined straight to the counter (where both the sales rep and floor manager were standing) and made it very clear that a) we were ordering an Outback Touring today, b) we already knew they didn't have one on their lot, and c) we wanted to test drive the Limited model instead.  After a series of test drives to confirm that we had indeed picked out the car we wanted, we walked back inside and I told the salesperson that I had already emailed 10 other dealerships in the area (I didn't tell him how many offers I had) and the reason we were on their lot was because it was their sale to lose.  So having set the table for our "negotiations," I went straight to the turkey: I handed him a blank copy of the exact sheet I had emailed to the other dealers and said 'these are the options I want, let's price it out'... if there was going to be any haggling, that was the coup de grâce right there.  After doing some quick math, my guy told me the MSRP and invoice prices and asked me if my calculations matched... I told him they did.  At that point, he knew that I knew that he knew he wasn't dealing with some starry-eyed kid buying his first car, and it was smooth sailing from there.

He didn't even bother with an opening salvo (the old "here's what I'll do for you"); he told me he was going to get the out-the-door price, so he walked over to his floor manager and came back with a price that was only $80 higher than the lower quote I already had, but his OTD was less by a few hundred.  The clubhouse leader to that point must have padded his OTD, but my guy had no add-ons, no rust proofing, no VIN etching, no phantom charges, nothing.  Straight up, new car price.  I told him if he rounded the OTD down to the nearest hundred, basically knocking off $50 (because I like round numbers), it's his deal.  So a $500 deposit, a couple signatures, 15 minutes and a handshake later, we walked out having ordered a car for 2.5% below invoice.  I'm sure I could have haggled to knock off another hundred or two, but I was right in the wheelhouse of what others online were reporting they paid, and having experienced zero stress and none of the usual "salesmanship" bullshiite, we figured we weren't going to dip into his pocket any further and instead, simply called it a day.

The afternoon couldn't have gone any smoother.  Goes to show how a little pre-buy research and effort can put the enjoyment back into buying a car.

Nicely done, Benny!

I hope our car-buying experience goes just as smoothly.

[reinko]

So I ended up with two emailed offers at the end of the day.  The first was nearly $1000 below invoice and the

The afternoon couldn't have gone any smoother.  Goes to show how a little pre-buy research and effort can put the enjoyment back into buying a car.

This +1,000.

82, check out this subreddit too, was very helpful in my car buying.

https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/

[StillAWarrior]

I'm sure I could have haggled to knock off another hundred or two, but I was right in the wheelhouse of what others online were reporting they paid, and having experienced zero stress and none of the usual "salesmanship" bullshiite, we figured we weren't going to dip into his pocket any further and instead, simply called it a day.

The afternoon couldn't have gone any smoother.  Goes to show how a little pre-buy research and effort can put the enjoyment back into buying a car.

This is one of the things that I've liked about handling everything on the internet before going to the dealership.  In my experience, it made the entire process much less of a hassle and less stressful.  Maybe I left a few dollars on the table, maybe not.  I felt that I got a fair deal so I went with it.  So many people complain about how adversarial the entire process is, but then the walk into a dealership and fight with them for the last dollar.  I'd rather just make the entire process a little more relaxed, even if I could have saved a few bucks here or there.  Maybe the salesmen love me and think I'm a sucker, but I can live with that.

I did have one great email exchange with a salesperson two cars ago when he wouldn't give me the numbers I was asking for.  The beauty of email is it lives forever - I actually just went back and re-read it.  I was planning to lease and wanted all the different variables (i.e., sale price, payment, down payment, fees, mileage, etc.) because you can see where they're putting money.  All he'd give me was the monthly payment, and none of the other numbers.  He couldn't understand why anything else mattered to me.  Ultimately he concluded I wasn't really in the market and blew me off.  I got the exact same car that weekend from another dealer.  I think he was new and really didn't understand why I wanted the other numbers.

[rocket surgeon]

The nice thing about car gurus is they tell you if it is a fair deal or not and by how much either way.  Where gurus get their numbers, I don't know.  But at least when you leave the dealer with a car, ya don't feel like ya got to check to see if you're wearing the pants ya walked in with.  Rule# 1-don't go car shopping commando, especially if it's a little nippy out, eyna?

[Benny B]

The nice thing about car gurus is they tell you if it is a fair deal or not and by how much either way.  Where gurus get their numbers, I don't know.  But at least when you leave the dealer with a car, ya don't feel like ya got to check to see if you're wearing the pants ya walked in with.  Rule# 1-don't go car shopping commando, especially if it's a little nippy out, eyna?

I checked out the pricing on Car Gurus and True Car... their reported "average" price paid in both cases was above invoice.  I find that hard to believe, unless their pricing skews California where it's almost impossible to get a Subaru below invoice.  That said, for other makes these two sites may be extremely helpful, but if you want a good yardstick for what others are actually paying, your best bet is to go to the customer/enthusiast online forums for your specific car (most of the popular makes/models have their own site that is in no way affiliated with the mfg or any dealer) and see what people are actually reporting.


And for anyone who's interested, here's the template I used.  If anyone decides to copy off mine, please feel free to do so but bear in mind I only received a 20% response rate, so there may have been something off-putting about the template (perhaps it was the lack of my name and/or phone number on the template - although I did put my full name on the email, I did specifically request no calls since I didn't want to give out my phone number in the first go-around); in any event YMMV.

[MU82]

reinko -- Thanks for that link. Very interesting site and I think it will be useful.

Benny -- Thanks for the template; I like it! Also a great suggestion to go to the forums for different makes and models. I did that a few years ago and it was very helpful.

[rocket surgeon]

I checked out the pricing on Car Gurus and True Car... their reported "average" price paid in both cases was above invoice.  I find that hard to believe, unless their pricing skews California where it's almost impossible to get a Subaru below invoice.  That said, for other makes these two sites may be extremely helpful, but if you want a good yardstick for what others are actually paying, your best bet is to go to the customer/enthusiast online forums for your specific car (most of the popular makes/models have their own site that is in no way affiliated with the mfg or any dealer) and see what people are actually reporting.


And for anyone who's interested, here's the template I used.  If anyone decides to copy off mine, please feel free to do so but bear in mind I only received a 20% response rate, so there may have been something off-putting about the template (perhaps it was the lack of my name and/or phone number on the template - although I did put my full name on the email, I did specifically request no calls since I didn't want to give out my phone number in the first go-around); in any event YMMV.

Good to know-thanks.  I just finished using them to look for a used jeep.  Found a beauty that seemed consistent with everything I was looking at and I probably looked at a hundred or more online.  Got an all black 09 Sahara hard top with the freedom panels.  Many comment that it looks brand new.  I wouldn't hesitate to use gurus again for used vehicle, but for new ones, thanks for the info

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Am I the only one who read "Buying Services" and immediately thought "JB would be the resident expert"?

[Coleman]

And of course all good ideas originate from Scoop....just announced today

amazon.com/vehicles

[mu03eng]

Good to know-thanks.  I just finished using them to look for a used jeep.  Found a beauty that seemed consistent with everything I was looking at and I probably looked at a hundred or more online.  Got an all black 09 Sahara hard top with the freedom panels.  Many comment that it looks brand new.  I wouldn't hesitate to use gurus again for used vehicle, but for new ones, thanks for the info

Manual?

I'm trying to convince the wife character that a manual Jeep is perfectly safe to transport a 10 month old in. May have to live vicariously through you. 

[rocket surgeon]

Manual?

I'm trying to convince the wife character that a manual Jeep is perfectly safe to transport a 10 month old in. May have to live vicariously through you. 

transmission?  automatic.  i learned how to drive and took my test with a 3 on the tree and had many a manual transmission thereafter.  got sick n tired of trying drive and shift in stop n go traffic spilling coffee all over the place.  texting is a bitch as well

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Manual?

I'm trying to convince the wife character that a manual Jeep is perfectly safe to transport a 10 month old in. May have to live vicariously through you. 

I'll get you a great deal on a beautiful, stick-shift Wrangler Unlimited.  Only 4,200 miles.  Firecracker Red.

[Jay Bee]

transmission?  automatic.  i learned how to drive and took my test with a 3 on the tree and had many a manual transmission thereafter.  got sick n tired of trying drive and shift in stop n go traffic spilling coffee all over the place.  texting is a bitch as well

I started off driving a stick too (nh). It's stupid for most people to do, similar to using chopsticks when you have a fork.

Girls got angry bc my strong biceps & forearm got I their way while they tried to give dat road heezy

[martyconlonontherun]

I'm in the process of buying a new car and ran into something I've never seen before.  A local dealership got a model exactly like we want, but it was damaged at the factory/during transport.  The dented/scratched panel was repaired, and now they're selling it as a "Certified Used" with only 20 miles on it.  Seems like a decent deal, we save a couple thousand bucks, and actually get an extra year of warranty because of the Certified Used status.  I've just never seen this policy of selling a new car as used before.

When I worked at a car dealership, the used to take non-selling cars and give them to service as a service car for customers, depreciated the value as a business expense and sold the car as a certified used car. It would happen a couple times a month. Not a bad deal for the end buyer as I doubt people are going to a dealer for repairs are likely to abuse the rental they have get to go to work.

[4everwarriors]

transmission?  automatic.  i learned how to drive and took my test with a 3 on the tree and had many a manual transmission thereafter.  got sick n tired of trying drive and shift in stop n go traffic spilling coffee all over the place.  texting is a bitch as well

Eat chit, AT&T, ai na?

[rocket surgeon]

I started off driving a stick too (nh). It's stupid for most people to do, similar to using chopsticks when you have a fork.

Girls got angry bc my strong biceps & forearm got I their way while they tried to give dat road heezy

LOLOL...and that too   My first car in h.s. A '69 Pontiac tempest Had the ole bench seats and then put the 3 on the tree??  What a waist of da bench seat then Eyn'a?  Ya know how hard it is to find a cute little gymnast on a Saturday night

[Benny B]

First car I drove was an 85 'Vette, stick shift.


"Vette" of course, being short for the Chevrolet Chevette.

[warriorchick]

Automatic transmissions are for pu$$ies.

[rocket surgeon]

Automatic transmissions are for pu$$ies.

No, I thought stick shifts were

[4everwarriors]

Saw dat movie back in da dey at da Parkway, hey?

[mu03eng]

Automatic transmissions are for pu$$ies.

[mu03eng]

I'll get you a great deal on a beautiful, stick-shift Wrangler Unlimited.  Only 4,200 miles.  Firecracker Red.

What year?

[Spotcheck Billy]

When I worked at a car dealership, the used to take non-selling cars and give them to service as a service car for customers, depreciated the value as a business expense and sold the car as a certified used car. It would happen a couple times a month. Not a bad deal for the end buyer as I doubt people are going to a dealer for repairs are likely to abuse the rental they have get to go to work.

What?! I guess I'm different then, every loaner/rental I drive, I drive it like I stole it since I won't abuse my vehicle like that.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

What year?

2015

http://www.haggertybuickgmc.com/VehicleDetails/used-2015-Jeep-Wrangler_Unlimited-4WD_4dr_Sport-Villa_Park-IL/2812521823

[rocket surgeon]

2015

http://www.haggertybuickgmc.com/VehicleDetails/used-2015-Jeep-Wrangler_Unlimited-4WD_4dr_Sport-Villa_Park-IL/2812521823

I don't look good in red.  And besides, most times, not all the time, but most times I see a hot red car there is a hot little female behind the wheel.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's just that us big burley types and red cars don't seem to go well together

[WI inferiority Complexes]

I don't look good in red.  And besides, most times, not all the time, but most times I see a hot red car there is a hot little female behind the wheel.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's just that us big burley types and red cars don't seem to go well together