Twins trade Gomez to Brewers for JJ Hardy

[Hards Alumni]

Cameron was a great outfielder. No doubt.

But, he won a total of 3 gold gloves (impressive, but not HOF), and doesn't have the same range anymore.

Not many 37 year old CF's with a lot of range out there.

If you want to talk specifically about "great catches", Gomez was one of the tops in the league in Web Gems while getting limited playing time.

Trust me, you will love Gomez's fielding. His hitting will make you cringe, but his fielding is awesome.

I forgot, they hand out Gold Gloves like candy canes in December.  Are you seriously making this argument?

Cameron hasn't really slowed down in center.  He made PLENTY of great catches last year, and you are basing your argument on his age alone.

On the other hand, I actually watched 75% of the Brewers games and attended 10 despite living 80 miles away... I'd say I had a better look at him, and he hadn't "slowed down."

[GGGG]

What a horrible deal for the Brewers.  Sure they had to move Hardy but why fall for a crap 'toolsy' outfielder who will never end up up doing much in the majors?  The Twins foolishly fell for Gomez in that awful Santana deal  -- but to find another suitor who craved him after the season he just had is insane.

A "toolsy" outfielder is pretty much all JJ is worth after last season.

[LON]

Will Gomez strike out as much as Cameron?  I couldn't care less about the HRs aspect, we rely too much on the HR ball.

[Hards Alumni]

Will Gomez strike out as much as Cameron?  I couldn't care less about the HRs aspect, we rely too much on the HR ball.

more probably.

JJ Hardy has had more than one good year.  I don't understand why everyone thinks he is a bad player.  Does he have his faults?  Yes.  Is he worth more than what the Brewers got for him?  Absolutely.

[copious1218]

Defensively, Gomez is a great CF.  Offensively, not so much.  But, the Brewers were good offensively last year and if Weeks comes back healthy (no guarantee after that injury) he can make up for the loss of Cameron offensively.

Meaning, the Brewers lose nothing defensively.  They won't take too much of a hit offensively (again, if Weeks is healthy and lives up to the start he had last year).  Gained some financial room to sign pitchers.  And, added a player that plays what is typically described as NL baseball (bunts, steals, taking extra bases where possible).  Whether Macha decides to use Gomez properly is another question.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I forgot, they hand out Gold Gloves like candy canes in December.  Are you seriously making this argument?

Cameron hasn't really slowed down in center.  He made PLENTY of great catches last year, and you are basing your argument on his age alone.

On the other hand, I actually watched 75% of the Brewers games and attended 10 despite living 80 miles away... I'd say I had a better look at him, and he hadn't "slowed down."

I think you will be impressed with Gomez's range and arm in CF.  

If you don't believe me, look up their defensive stats on baseball reference.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they will give you a better idea on how good Gomez can be, because it doesn't seem like you have seen him play much.

For the record, I never said Cameron was bad, it's just that Gomez is 6'4" and one of the fastest guys in the league. He's a rare combination of athletic ability that allows him to be a great CF.

For whatever reason, you seem to think I'm saying Cameron sucks, and I don't think that at all. Cameron was/is a good fielder... but Gomez is young and fearless and saves runs in the OF.

[Hards Alumni]

I think you will be impressed with Gomez's range and arm in CF.  

If you don't believe me, look up their defensive stats on baseball reference.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they will give you a better idea on how good Gomez can be, because it doesn't seem like you have seen him play much.

For the record, I never said Cameron was bad, it's just that Gomez is 6'4" and one of the fastest guys in the league. He's a rare combination of athletic ability that allows him to be a great CF.

For whatever reason, you seem to think I'm saying Cameron sucks, and I don't think that at all. Cameron was/is a good fielder... but Gomez is young and fearless and saves runs in the OF.

The only thing I am saying is that it isn't going to be the drastic change in center field defense that you think it is.  I never implied that Gomez isn't good in the OF.  I said that him and Cameron are about equal.

But, he won a total of 3 gold gloves (impressive, but not HOF), and doesn't have the same range anymore.

This leads me to believe that you are implying that they are NOT about equal in terms of defense.

I am not even arguing that they should have resigned Cameron (They shouldn't have).  But to pretend that Gomez is going to be this huge upgrade over last year (as if that was even the Brewer's problem?) is a joke.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The only thing I am saying is that it isn't going to be the drastic change in center field defense that you think it is.  I never implied that Gomez isn't good in the OF.  I said that him and Cameron are about equal.
 

This leads me to believe that you are implying that they are NOT about equal in terms of defense.

I am not even arguing that they should have resigned Cameron (They shouldn't have).  But to pretend that Gomez is going to be this huge upgrade over last year (as if that was even the Brewer's problem?) is a joke.

Cameron is still good. Gomez is better.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying.

You can disagree now, but let's revisit this thread in September of 2010 and let me know what you think.

I think you will be very impressed. Trust me.

Here's an visual example of his range, timing, size and athleticism. Nobody out there has his combo of size and speed right now.

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6631165

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5457501   

Here's the statistical example of his range.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gomezca01-field.shtml

vs Cameron

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/camermi01-field.shtml

[Hards Alumni]

Cameron is still good. Gomez is better.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying.

You can disagree now, but let's revisit this thread in September of 2010 and let me know what you think.

I think you will be very impressed. Trust me.

Here's an visual example of his range, timing, size and athleticism. Nobody out there has his combo of size and speed right now.

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6631165

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=5457501   

Here's the statistical example of his range.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gomezca01-field.shtml

vs Cameron

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/camermi01-field.shtml

cool stats.  but they don't really show much.

As I have stated, they are pretty comparable on defense, and Gomez is younger.  Those are the only positives.

Gomez is an offensive downgrade, and a personality downgrade.

[Jay Bee]

If you haven't seen him play much, you'll be impressed on some balls Gomez gets to in the field.  Comparing his defensive abilities in 2010 to Cameron - it's no contest, Gomez wins.  Go Go can be an extremely exciting player.  Now, you'll be lucky if he hits .270 (which would equate to about a .300 OBP for him) while striking out 'only' once every 5 at bats, but he's only 23... who knows.  There is a lot of talent there and a tremendous amount of speed, but I don't know that he can figure things out at this level.  

A headline from the St. Paul paper: "Twins tell clueless Gomez to run past third, keep going to Milwaukee"

Brewers fans can think of the trade this way: you just got the crown jewel of the Johan Santana trade!

JJ for comeback player of the year!!  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

cool stats.  but they don't really show much.

As I have stated, they are pretty comparable on defense, and Gomez is younger.  Those are the only positives.

Gomez is an offensive downgrade, and a personality downgrade.

It sounds like you have your mind made up, and it doesn't matter what I say (ask you to wait until after you watch him play next season) or do (provide you with highlight footage and defensive stats), you already know that Gomez not much better in the field.

Great job. You win. I was wrong. Gomez is not a big upgrade on defense.

[Hards Alumni]

It sounds like you have your mind made up, and it doesn't matter what I say (ask you to wait until after you watch him play next season) or do (provide you with highlight footage and defensive stats), you already know that Gomez not much better in the field.

Great job. You win. I was wrong. Gomez is not a big upgrade on defense.

pot meet kettle?  You didn't watch Cameron last year, so you really have no point of reference other than stats... which I looked at and they are about the same defensively... which is what I have been saying.  Just because you post a couple of highlight reels about him doesn't invalidate my point.  If you want to have a better point of reference for yourself (and perhaps want to be more open minded!) go find yourself some of Cam's 2009 highlights.  I assure you, they exist.

I have NEVER argued that Gomez is defensively inferior.  In fact, I have stated, now ad nauseum, that they are statistically comparable.

And when you realize that someone doesn't agree with you, you say things like:

Great job. You win. I was wrong. Gomez is not a big upgrade on defense.

which is just a nicer way of saying, "You're wrong, and I am right, like always... even if you fail to see it."

This isn't some personal thing either, but obviously we disagree quite often.  But you play a little too much devil's advocate for my taste.  I agree with you when you make good points... which you often do as well.  But I think you may be doing a little too much shooting from the hip here.

I can tell from most of your posts that you are a forum rat and really mostly just like to argue with people... well me too.  You make generalizations and back track on your conclusions more often than a politician.  Posting a link to a website doesn't make you right, though.  Sorry, I just see through your smoke and mirrors better than most here.

As usual, time is the only thing that will ever decide an argument like this.  Just so we're clear, we both get to pull out the told you so card whoever ends up right... though I doubt by then we will have forgotten about this whole thing.

[Wareagle]

Gomez is 9.5 mil cheaper, but it's a net loss for run generation.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

pot meet kettle?  You didn't watch Cameron last year, so you really have no point of reference other than stats... which I looked at and they are about the same defensively... which is what I have been saying.  Just because you post a couple of highlight reels about him doesn't invalidate my point.  If you want to have a better point of reference for yourself (and perhaps want to be more open minded!) go find yourself some of Cam's 2009 highlights.  I assure you, they exist.

I have NEVER argued that Gomez is defensively inferior.  In fact, I have stated, now ad nauseum, that they are statistically comparable.

And when you realize that someone doesn't agree with you, you say things like:
 

which is just a nicer way of saying, "You're wrong, and I am right, like always... even if you fail to see it."

This isn't some personal thing either, but obviously we disagree quite often.  But you play a little too much devil's advocate for my taste.  I agree with you when you make good points... which you often do as well.  But I think you may be doing a little too much shooting from the hip here.

I can tell from most of your posts that you are a forum rat and really mostly just like to argue with people... well me too.  You make generalizations and back track on your conclusions more often than a politician.  Posting a link to a website doesn't make you right, though.  Sorry, I just see through your smoke and mirrors better than most here.

As usual, time is the only thing that will ever decide an argument like this.  Just so we're clear, we both get to pull out the told you so card whoever ends up right... though I doubt by then we will have forgotten about this whole thing.

First of all, this isn't personal, I assure you.

Second, I didn't start this debate. I simply stated that Gomez was an improvement in the field, which you responded with this:

Gomez is worse than Cameron in every batting category and behind as a fielder. 

This led me to believe that you thought Cameron was as good if not better than Gomez. If that's not what you are saying, then I apologize in advance. This just a case of miscommunication.

As far as watching Cameron, you bring up a great point. However, I live in Milwaukee and see my share of Brewer games (25 or so), and also believe in the stats from baseball reference and the highlights I see on TV (many more for Gomez than for Cameron). I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on everything in baseball, but I see many Twins and Brewers games, so I have a pretty good feel for both of those teams.

As far as the rest of your post, it seems like you've been holding that in for a while, and this was your chance to gun on me. I'm not sure why you don't like my posts, but I don't mind if you choose to disagree with me or my opinions. That's what makes the world go 'round.

Oh, and as far as the "you're wrong, I'm right" thing... I only stated it that way because I'm providing you with statistical and visual evidence to support my belief, and you just shrug it off with "cool stats". If you really don't think Gomez is an improvement, feel free to provide context and support for your opinion. Telling me you watch 75 brewer games is great, but some impartial evidence would be helpful as well.

I'm definitely not above admitting when I'm wrong.

[Hards Alumni]

behind as in unproven... as in didn't play a full season last year, as in doesn't have the accomplished career that someone like Cameron does.  I was equally unclear in my presentation of that.

In fact, I have not been holding it in for some time, and this certainly isn't the first time I have said anything.  I just call a spade a spade when I see it.

As I have mentioned, and you seem to ignore, the stats don't speak as loudly as you seem to think.  The stats are comparible for last year.  I guess I am just stating this for myself since you just seem to gloss over the FACT that they are about the same.  Definitely not a downgrade from a year ago, but also not really an upgrade.

I just don't like the trade.  Defense is important in CF.  I get it.  But defense isn't everything in baseball.  The loss in run production with Cameron gone and Gomez in his place is going to be significant.

As for the rest, I could go play around on Youtube for 15 minutes and find some Cameron highlights too... but that doesn't really prove or disprove my point.

If we are arguing defense alone, fine, I will give you that over the course of the next 3 years, Gomez will probably be better defensively.  But taking into account offense, there is no contest... Gomez can't bat.

[NYWarrior]

Gomez is a 9.5 mil cheaper, but it's a net loss for run generation.

It's a huge net loss for run generation.  Cameron's OPS+ the last three years is +106, just above average. Gomez is one of the very worst offensive position players in baseball with an OPS+ of 73 in the last 3 seasons (100 is league average).  He's been flat-out terrible.  

What you have to hope for is Gomez being more of an NL player who's BABIP in 2009 was anomaly.  Gomez posted a .286 BABIP this year after posting a .330 BABIP in 2008 -- yet his walk rate year-to-year improved dramatically, a very good sign for a young hitter.  With his speed (though his stolen base rate blows chunks) and now playing in a weaker league maybe he can surprise in 2010.  

Heck -- playing on natural grass at home might help ..... opposing defenses should have a tougher time taking the bunt away from him.  I'm trying to talk myself into this, but do division-winning teams send CFs out there who only deliver .246/.292/.346?  No, no they don't.

AAAA

[Jay Bee]

Heck -- playing on natural grass at home might help ..... opposing defenses should have a tougher time taking the bunt away from him.  I'm trying to talk myself into this, but do division-winning teams send CFs out there who only deliver .246/.292/.346?  No, no they don't.

  On a part-time basis they certainly do.  I'm pretty sure the Twins won the AL Central. 

[NYWarrior]

 On a part-time basis they certainly do.  I'm pretty sure the Twins won the AL Central.  

Thanks for proving my point......the Twins won the Central in part by sitting an albatross like Gomez.  The Centerpiece of the Santana Trade began collecting splinters more regularly at about the time the Twins surged.  Carlos Gomez commanded a grand total of 31 at bats for the entire month of September.  31 at bats in 21 games, which included 7 games where he didn't play and 5 games where he was afforded one at-bat.  In September, Gomez was responsible for 6 total bases.

Now he's the starting CF in Milwaukee.

[Jay Bee]

Thanks for proving my point......the Twins won the Central in part by sitting an albatross like Gomez.  The Centerpiece of the Santana Trade began collecting splinters more regularly at about the time the Twins surged.  Carlos Gomez commanded a grand total of 31 at bats for the entire month of September.  31 at bats in 21 games, which included 7 games where he didn't play and 5 games where he was afforded one at-bat.  In September, Gomez was responsible for 6 total bases.

Now he's the starting CF in Milwaukee.

  I guess you're forgetting about 2008 as well, when Gomez was an every day player, the Twins tied the ChiSux for first place in the AL Central [the stats you referred to were career stats].  Your comment asserted that a team can't win a division with a guy like Gomez playing for you, and that's simply not factual.  The Twins did it, twice, with the very player your comment is based on.

  I doubt he's won the starting CF job in Milwaukee quite yet. 



 

[SaintPaulWarrior]

  I guess you're forgetting about 2008 as well, when Gomez was an every day player, the Twins tied the ChiSox for first place in the AL Central  

There wasn't a tie, the Sox won the division by one game.

[copious1218]

Of course offensive production goes down in CF with Gomez instead of Cameron.  However, offensive production can increase in other positions, i.e. 2B and C.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If we are arguing defense alone, fine, I will give you that over the course of the next 3 years, Gomez will probably be better defensively.  But taking into account offense, there is no contest... Gomez can't bat.

That's all I ever said.

Cameron is clearly the more gifted offensive player.

Gomez is a fantastic defensive player, and I think you will enjoy watching him play CF.

When he bats, close your eyes.

Trust me, you'll like him out in CF.

[Hards Alumni]

That's all I ever said.

Cameron is clearly the more gifted offensive player.

Gomez is a fantastic defensive player, and I think you will enjoy watching him play CF.

When he bats, close your eyes.

Trust me, you'll like him out in CF.

but the problem is, I don't want a player on my team that I can only like half the time.

The Brewers shouldn't resign Jason Kendall for the very same reason.

[Big Papi]

I strongly dislike this trade... that is to say I hate it.  

Gomez is worse than Cameron in every batting category and behind as a fielder.  The only positives are that they don't pay Cameron this year (hopefully?) and that Gomez is young and may benefit from Willie Randolph.

JJ Hardy had a bad year this year, but he has also had good years.  Gomez, not so much.

Now that Melvin has the money he needs to go out and get 2 great pitchers... which will be impossible since there aren't GREAT pitchers available.  He needs to decline Looper and Kendall's option and cut ties.

I am very disappointed and I feel like the Brewers are just trying to play status quo while they wait for the pitching prospects (wait, which pitching prospects?) to come up from Single A Brevard (Oh wait, Rodgers has gotten shelled in the AFL his last 3 starts... so much for our best pitching prospect!) to restock.  At which point Fielder will be in NYC with a bursting piggy bank and the Brewers will be... well... the Brewers we have seen for the last 10 years.

god dammit.

I agree.  Horrible trade for the Brewers.  Gomez might have great speed but "hits like Sh*t"  That speed won't do him any good when his onbase is below 300.  I know JJ was gone but he should have been packaged with others for a quality arm.  If the goal is to win now, then package some of your younger pitchers along with JJ and/or Hart and/or Gamel and/or Weeks and get an arm.  The FA market is horrible for pitching this year.   If we are going to sign two middling Looper type pitchers to throw in the lineup then we might as well shop Prince as we are not going to get better.

Can you imagine having a lineup of Gomez, Escobar and Kendell along with a pitcher.  Will we score any runs?

[Big Papi]

  I guess you're forgetting about 2008 as well, when Gomez was an every day player, the Twins tied the ChiSux for first place in the AL Central [the stats you referred to were career stats].  Your comment asserted that a team can't win a division with a guy like Gomez playing for you, and that's simply not factual.  The Twins did it, twice, with the very player your comment is based on.

  I doubt he's won the starting CF job in Milwaukee quite yet. 
 

Yea but I would guess that the other 8 hitters in the Twins lineup overall have a better on base percentage that what the Brewers are staring it.  Easier to hide his bat in the Twins lineup and frankly probably any AL team with the DH rule.  We add him to Escobar, Hart, a pitcher and possibly Kendell.  YUCK!!!!

Gomez seems like a great 4th outfielder.  Throw him out there for defensive purposes late in games and as a pinchrunner.  The kid has NEVER hit.  At least JJ showed more than flashes of being a competent hitter.  He had very good numbers a year ago for being a ss. 

The Twins made out on this one.