Froling's role in conference play

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I was thinking more along the lines of 15 minutes when I said consistent. 7 is probably fine for now, but I don't want to see his minutes increase much more until he learns to limit the TOs and the fouls.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about the outside game. Lonzo Ball has an ugly shot, but it goes in. Harry may not have an ugly shot, but he can't make shots. That's a problem. Good form with bad aim doesn't accomplish much. His touch inside is even pretty rough, as evidenced again tonight.

Lonzo Ball is shooting 35% from the field this season so you might want to use a different comparison.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Froling  has been a massive addition. When he arrived we turned into a different team. He is still getting his feet wet a little and getting comfortable in his role. I?m fine with all his decision making. He?s clearly a ball player.

[MU82]

Not sure we need much more time to see the direction Wojo is going.

Two weeks ago, when Froling played very well in 20 minutes against Xavier and Heldt spent long stretches on the bench, many Scoopers (including me) said it looked like Wojo was going a different direction.

But here's the deal: What Wojo has done consistently during his time at MU is give everybody a chance in a game and then ride the hot hand. I believe that is what he will continue to do with the center position, and it makes the most sense to manage the position that way.

If Heldt is playing the best, he'll get the most minutes. If Froling hits a few shots and generally outplays Heldt, he'll get more minutes. Same with Theo, although it looks like Theo and Froling can play well together for short stretches, too. And Sam has proven he can be a 5 against certain teams, too - indeed, against smaller, quicker teams, Sam is our best 5. Obviously, fouls will dictate PT at the position, as well.

Here are the 3 centers' minutes in the last 6 games (starting with the American game, Harry's 2nd after becoming eligible):

American - Harry 21, Theo 18, Matt 14
Xavier - Harry 20, Matt 13, Theo 9
Georgetown - Matt 29, Harry 9, Theo 9
Providence - Matt 21, Theo 15, Harry 11
Villanova - Matt 14, Harry 14, Theo 9
Seton Hall - Matt 23, Theo 17, Harry 8

TOTALS - Matt 114, Harry 83, Theo 77.

Matt played the most minutes 3x, Harry played the most 2x, and they played the same number once. Theo played the second-most minutes 3x and tied for second-most once - and those are the 4 games we won during the span, coincidentally or not.

Bottom line: Not sure how anybody can conclude anything about the direction Wojo is going with the center position from the above information.

Wojo showed last year that he's not too worried about hurting somebody's feelings. He benched Luke, a senior who had been productive since their first year on campus together. But when Matt played like a deer in headlights against S Carolina in the NCAA game, Wojo bolted Matt's butt to the bench and turned to Luke again. He's a coach; he'll do what it takes to win.

IMHO, Wojo's feel for playing time and lineup combos has been one of his strengths since his second season. (And the rest of his game is coming on.) I am very confident Wojo will make the right decisions here, and I'm glad he has this many viable options - including Sam at 5 for stretches when necessary.

I personally believe that we truly will be a very good team once Heldt is playing fewer minutes; that will mean we have better options at the position.

[WarriorInNYC]

But here's the deal: What Wojo has done consistently during his time at MU is give everybody a chance in a game and then ride the hot hand. I believe that is what he will continue to do with the center position, and it makes the most sense to manage the position that way.

I feel like this is especially the case this year and he does this with Jamal/Sacar/Greg as well and the last couple games we've seen it even slightly with Markus and Rowsey.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Froling  has been a massive addition. When he arrived we turned into a different team. He is still getting his feet wet a little and getting comfortable in his role. I?m fine with all his decision making. He?s clearly a ball player.

How was Joliet, kin?  Let you out early for bad behavior?  Still on the ankle monitor?

[4everwarriors]

Seams completely awful. I meen, gettin? to da hole and knot finishin?, hey?

[skianth16]

Lonzo Ball is shooting 35% from the field this season so you might want to use a different comparison.

I was thinking more of his college game where he shot 55% from the floor and 41% from three.

[mug644]

I'm not too impressed by Froling's play thus far, except for the fact that he is taking shots within the flow of the game (excluding the one shot last night after he had made a bucket). And I choose to accept the support that Wojo and the team (as evidenced by Markus' encouragement to keep shooting) has for Froling's play. I'll hold on to the belief that his shot will come around.

[skianth16]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)

It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.

[BM1090]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)

It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.

Greg started the season 1-11 on threes. Jamal started 3-12. They are up to 33% and 43%, respectively. Sometimes it just takes some time to get your shot back in game situations. If he goes the whole year without hitting, maybe time to re-evaluate. But I would guess we'll start seeing some go in.

[skianth16]

Come on guys. He lost a whole year by transferring. Essentially this is his second semester freshman year and he is being baptized by fire in conference play. He reminds me of Heldt his freshman year but with just a tad better skills. He may lose some playing time to Morrow, and/or Joey at the 4, and see him as the 3rd option at the 5 behind Theo and Heldt next season. He seems to be a little more confidant, but is still reluctant to shoot.

He lost of year of eligibility, not a year of playing basketball. If players weren't expected to improve without competing in games, then why are redshirts so common? He's been in the gym every day since he got to Marquette, and he had as many opportunities to improve in that time as anyone else on the team. I just don't buy this argument at all.

[tower912]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)

It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.

You're not necessarily wrong as it stands today.    Still 13 conference games to go.   If he gets his legs and his timing and starts hitting that shot..... we can revisit. 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)

It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.

Dude, sample sizes. 

Harry hasn't been good, but its pretty obvious that he has talent and Wojo believes in him (and apparently Markus too). 

Stop skewering the kid every chance you get.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

No. I think everyone accepts that Harry hasn't lived up to expectations so far. I think just about everyone thought he would be better right out of the gate. We were wrong. That doesn't mean we are willing to right the kid off just yet.

[ATL MU Warrior]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)

It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.

I fall into this group, but IMO your assessment is way off. 

First of all, Harry has played in what, 5-6 games?  He is still getting his legs under him.  I know you think this is stupid, but playing in a game is very different from practice and it takes a while to acclimate and relax and just play. 

I believe that the defense has to honor Harry at the three point line, and that this simple fact helps our overall team offense more than having Heldt or John in there who are no threat at all from outside of about 5 feet from the basket.  Harry will start to make some shots here and there, but the simple fact that he is willing to shoot it is a net positive for the rest of the offense.  It allows bigger driving lanes for the midgets and lessens the likelihood that they get blocked.  The more they are able to drive and finish, the more defenders have to give them a little more space on the perimeter, which gives them more room to shoot 3s.  And on and on. 

Telling him to stop shooting is the worst thing they could do, because it would create the very situation you already think exists with teams laying off of him. 

[skianth16]

Dude, sample sizes. 

Harry hasn't been good, but its pretty obvious that he has talent and Wojo believes in him (and apparently Markus too). 

Stop skewering the kid every chance you get.

7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do. But you're right, I shouldn't be so hard on Harry himself. I find it annoying that posters here have such a weird affinity for a guy who hasn't performed well that I end up bagging on him more than necessary. For those who claim anyone shooting 9% from 3 is an outside threat however, you're all nuts.

[Markusquette]

Froling  has been a massive addition. When he arrived we turned into a different team. He is still getting his feet wet a little and getting comfortable in his role. I?m fine with all his decision making. He?s clearly a ball player.

I agree with you. Definitely been a positive addition to the team. Just having his size helps. He's got nice vision for a big and he's learning from his mistakes on court. Starting out basically in Big East play with only a game or two under his belt is no easy task. I like what he brings to the table.

[ATL MU Warrior]

7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do. But you're right, I shouldn't be so hard on Harry himself. I find it annoying that posters here have such a weird affinity for a guy who hasn't performed well that I end up bagging on him more than necessary. For those who claim anyone shooting 9% from 3 is an outside threat however, you're all nuts.

No, 7 games is not enough, that's asinine.  How much have Theo, Greg and Jamal improved from what they accomplished in their first 7 games of the season?

He's taken all of 11 threes.  That is also not enough for you to be writing him off just yet.

[skianth16]

I believe that the defense has to honor Harry at the three point line, and that this simple fact helps our overall team offense more than having Heldt or John in there who are no threat at all from outside of about 5 feet from the basket.  Harry will start to make some shots here and there, but the simple fact that he is willing to shoot it is a net positive for the rest of the offense.  It allows bigger driving lanes for the midgets and lessens the likelihood that they get blocked.  The more they are able to drive and finish, the more defenders have to give them a little more space on the perimeter, which gives them more room to shoot 3s.  And on and on. 

Telling him to stop shooting is the worst thing they could do, because it would create the very situation you already think exists with teams laying off of him.

I'll start this by saying I don't want this to come off as me saying I think Harry is a bad basketball player. In general, I think he'll be OK, but his game needs to focus more on the interior and get off the perimeter. That being said, to address a few things you said:

I believe that the defense has to honor Harry at the three point line -  Do they? Based on what? He has not shown the ability to hit outside shots yet. I don't think opposing coaches are concerned about him shooting. Should they be worried about Sacar too?

who are no threat at all from outside of about 5 feet from the basket - Theo and Heldt both are both shooting better than Harry right now from the field and from 2. As has been mentioned already this year, Matt is an extremely efficient offensive player and should be given credit for that. Theo is also averaging more ppg than Harry with the same number of minutes.

the simple fact that he is willing to shoot it is a net positive for the rest of the offense - Given our negative rebounding margin and Harry's low 3P% and FG%, odds are in favor of a miss and a rebound going to the other team when he shoots. I don't think this helps us.

It allows bigger driving lanes for the midgets and lessens the likelihood that they get blocked - True in theory, but I haven't seen this play out with Harry in the game. Our guards are excellent on the perimeter but struggle to drive and score consistently. Markus is getting better, but he still gets blocked more than you would expect from a player of his caliber. I just haven't seen the improvement here in the last 7 games. Maybe there's some data to show an improvement on 2P% from our guards recently that could show how this has played out?

[skianth16]

No, 7 games is not enough, that's asinine.  How much have Theo, Greg and Jamal improved from what they accomplished in their first 7 games of the season?

He's taken all of 11 threes.  That is also not enough for you to be writing him off just yet.

Comparing freshmen to Harry is apples and oranges. Harry has been playing with high level D1 basketball players for the last 2 years. He's had time to adjust to the speed and strength of college players. The freshmen have only been doing this since August. Not the same.

[CTWarrior]

No, 7 games is not enough, that's asinine.  How much have Theo, Greg and Jamal improved from what they accomplished in their first 7 games of the season?

He's taken all of 11 threes.  That is also not enough for you to be writing him off just yet.

And its not like he's bricking them.  The misses are many but they're close.  I think once he relaxes he'll be fine.  His stroke looks OK.  He definitely shows some ball handling skills that our other bigs lack.  He is not up to game speed at all right now.  He'll need to be smarter.  Yesterday, for example, he gave up a wide open 10 footer to try a kick out pass that had to be threaded through 2 or 3 SHU guys.  Needless to say it didn't make it and led to a breakout for SHU.  I think he's obviously a big guy and he's got some tools, so there is a good chance he can put it together and be effective.  The more minutes he gets, the better he will be.  The question is, given our situation, if we can afford to give him those minutes to find his footing.

[UNC Eagle]

It seems at this point that there are some who accept that Harry isn't what we thought he'd be, and there's an oddly persistent group that thinks their perception or hope for him is a better way to assess his skills than his time spent on the floor.

Right now Harry is our worst shooter. Lowest FG%, lowest FT%, and second lowest 3P%. For some reason, there are a number of Scoopers that still think he can shoot because his shot isn't ugly. Results no matta, hey? His rebounding has been good, and he's a decent passer, but he's still at about a 1:1 assist to TO margin because his decision making is poor at times. He's physical, which is good, but he pushes it too far and gets too many fouls as a result, especially on offense. (That offensive foul last night was horrendous!)

It's nice to have a bigger body in the paint, but this whole notion of him drawing defenders to the perimeter to clear out the lane is silly. Any opposing coach is going to let our sub-10% 3 point shooting big guy fire away without getting a hand in his face. I hope he figures out how to play his game as the season progresses, but at this point, I see Theo as the better option to back up Heldt than Harry. And it's not close.

I think you have summarized it pretty well.  Many times there are kids who are stars in practice but have a hard time translating that into games. I think Harry may be one of those players. Over time I think he will gain the experience necessary to make an important contribution. Remember , You can't teach size and he does have that.

[Nukem2]

I think you have summarized it pretty well.  Many times there are kids who are stars in practice but have a hard time translating that into games. I think Harry may be one of those players. Over time I think he will gain the experience necessary to make an important contribution. Remember , You can't teach size and he does have that.

Right now, there is too much thinking and not reacting in the flow of things.  That?s from the rust.  He will be fine.  Though, he has limits as he is not overly quick and his game is below the rim.  But, he does have that size and recognizable skills.  Hard to break into the rotation in mid-season. 

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do. But you're right, I shouldn't be so hard on Harry himself. I find it annoying that posters here have such a weird affinity for a guy who hasn't performed well that I end up bagging on him more than necessary. For those who claim anyone shooting 9% from 3 is an outside threat however, you're all nuts.

You were saying the same crap after 2 games.  Harry has attempted all of 26 FG attempts this season.  He hasn't been good, but clearly the coach sees something in him.  That should be enough for you to give him a bit more rope.

[naginiF]

7 games is a good enough sample size to understand what a guy can do.

Scoop Takes...nice